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Brad:

How do I know you're going to do the same to me? You grew up with them, you created this life with them, they have this level of significance and attachment meaning to you. I don't have any of that with you. Granted, you feel like I'm your soul mate, but how do I know the tables aren't going to turn on me once you stop feeling that way?

Morgan:

Hey guys, welcome to the show. I'm Morgan Robinson here with Brad, my handsome husband.

Brad:

Hidey ho, everybody.

Morgan:

Hello, and before we get started we want to say, we have some amazing destination retreats available. Actually, we have filled our calendar in June and July for destination retreats, so we don't have anything available for June or July, but we do have a destination retreat available for August 30 and 31, that's a Wednesday and Thursday, so if you want to get away from your problems, where they are, no matter where you are, and come to a beautiful sunny destination, really get a new lease on life ...

Brad:

To maybe Cancun or Florida, to get away.

Morgan:

Yeah, then you can book a destination retreat over the phone, you can give us a call at 918-281-6060 and book that destination retreat today while it's still available, and you can check us out on the web at healingbrokentrust.com. We hope to see you soon.

Morgan:

There are some destination retreats available further out, but also we have retreats available in our Tulsa office, so you can come to Tulsa and do a retreat in the office, we just don't have any getaway retreats in June and July available at this point in time.

Morgan:

Let's go ahead and get started. We've had several people over the years, and we have lots of people who call us and talk with us and say "My spouse has left for the other person, or they want to leave," and we sometimes hear from that spouse who says, you know, "I want to leave, I'm thinking about leaving for the affair partner," and they say, "Well, I don't know if counseling will work," or they might be afraid that they won't ever be happy in their marriage or in their present relationship as they are or would be in the affair.

Morgan:

Today we're gonna talk about that, why not just leave for the affair partner? So Brad, do you want to talk a little bit about what the research says?

Brad:

Sure, yeah, sure. We can talk about the research, Morgan, talk about my experience in working with couples on this issue.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

And Morgan, let me just briefly say this: this is a hard topic for me to talk about because I always try to be fair to everybody.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And this one, it's hard to talk about because the reality of the situation is pretty bleak. The statistics are really stacked against people who go and try to be with the affair partner. I just don't want anybody to think I'm being unfair by describing my experience of working with couples with this and by delivering statistics, but this is something that we encounter a lot, and I've helped people work through.

Brad:

Our listeners, they only know us through this podcast, so we're really trying to be fair, and part of that fairness is kinda accurately reporting what we experience in doing this and what the research shows.

Morgan:

Exactly. Right.

Brad:

So, why not leave? Why stay, basically? And I think, like you said, there's research on this. One of the pieces of research shows that only a small number of people who left their spouse to go marry their affair partner are still married.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

There's only a small number of people that are still married after five years who started their marriage as an affair.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Five years later, are still married.

Morgan:

And I was really surprised to hear that actually, a small percentage leaves. So, as someone who's experienced betrayal I think many believe that the betrayer will just leave for the affair partner, but you're saying that it's actually a small percentage that actually leave. Why is that?

Brad:

Why is it a small percentage that actually leave and not a larger percentage?

Morgan:

Yeah, yeah, like everybody.

Brad:

First of all, a lot of people know that an affair is impractical. They aren't really in love with the affair partner. Maybe there's certain things that they enjoy from the affair, but they're not truly in love with the affair partner. Not everybody feels like they're married to the wrong person, in that the affair partner's their soul mate. The people who tend to think that the affair partner's their soul mate and get really stuck on that limerence, they're the ones that are going to be thinking about leaving to go be with the affair partner.

Brad:

So, not every affair is that way, so not everybody who has an affair is just automatically thinking "Hey, I want to go be with this person." Some people know that they can see the reality of the situation, say this isn't gonna be pretty. They're able to see the pain of what the separation will bring, from their spouse. They're able to see ... and honestly, they're even able to see the pain of what it will be like to be with the affair partner.

Brad:

In the biggest reason why people don't leave, they also know the significance that their spouse has, and that their family has, on their lives. A lot of people see their spouse as somebody they had children with, that they became an adult with, that they grew up with.

Morgan:

They have history with.

Brad:

They have history with them.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Their spouse is a good person, but there's also this inherent distrust towards somebody that they've had an affair with, so most people don't leave, because the affair partner's not really what they want, so they don't leave. But the people who do leave tend to be people that have gotten caught in limerence, which is something that we've talked about in a previous episode for you guys to listen to. One of the very first ones, we talk about limerence and how to fall out of love.

Morgan:

I think any other we'd term it is lovesickness, and that sort of thing. So, and that leads me to this other question. There's two basic trust issues. If they don't have one, then they have the other, and sometimes they have both, so you want to talk about what those are?

Brad:

Yeah. The two trust issues that people have when they've left their spouse and decided to marry or be with their affair partner, the first is ... and sometimes they have both, but if they didn't, if they don't have one they definitely got the other, and this is usually what brings them into marriage counseling. But the first is, you left your family, you left your children to be with me.

Morgan:

All of your friends who divided up.

Brad:

Yeah, your friends are divided up, you left ...

Morgan:

Sometimes your job, where you live-

Brad:

Your job, you left your family to be with me. It seems like your spouse is a nice person, it didn't seem like your marriage was that bad. How do I know you're not gonna do the same to me? You grew up with them. You created this life with them. They have this level of significance and attachment meaning to you. How do I know that ... I don't have any of that with you. I've only known you for a brief period, and our relationship has had to be secret the whole time. How do I know you're not gonna do that to me?

Brad:

I'm not as important to you, in attachment significance, as they are. Granted you feel like I'm your soul mate, but how do I know the tables aren't gonna turn on me once you stop feeling that way?

Morgan:

Or if I'm honest with you.

Brad:

Yeah, and Morgan, the other thing is, this really creates a lot of distress, too. Not a lot of people make a clean break, to leave their spouse and then go be with the affair partner. It's not like "Okay, you discovered the affair, now I'm leaving this weekend to go be with them." It's pretty messy, and so a lot of people go be with the affair partner, then come back home. They live this double life.

Brad:

Maybe the spouse doesn't know what's going on. The spouse rarely knows the full details. The affair partner often doesn't really know the full details. If they both talk, they're both gonna end up feeling betrayed, because they're gonna realize, hey, this person is lying to both of us. They're "betraying" both of us.

Brad:

People don't really ever make a clean getaway, clean break, and go with the affair partner, and so what happens is that's just gonna make it more difficult to have a healthy relationship.

Brad:

And then the other thing, Morgan, that makes these relationships hard, this is another issue that brings people in, usually one of them has cheated on the other. That's why they're coming to see me again.

Morgan:

Okay, so the first one is, how do I know that you're not going to do what you did to your spouse to me, and then the other is, they come in because of more betrayal, because they're kind of in a pattern and a habit of betraying and so they betray each other.

Brad:

Yeah, one of them has ended up betraying. That's kinda the grim reality of this is, there's kinda not just two but maybe three reasons to have ... you could add more, but maybe three basic that I see is, you betray them, you've now betrayed me with an affair, and then it took you forever to leave them to be with me. How do I know I'm really important to you? So you have to ask yourself, you gotta look at this realistically, because what people do is they look at the pleasure of this. "I found my soul mate, I feel so good. When I'm away from them, I feel so unhappy and I feel this despair, and I feel depressed when I'm not with them, but when I'm with them I feel great." People focus on that, but what they don't focus on is the faults of the affair partner, they're focused on the faults of their spouse to the hilt.

Morgan:

Right, of course.

Brad:

They see that, they feel the resentment towards their spouse, but the affair partner represents greener pastures, a new opportunity. If you're gonna be fair to yourself, something you need to do for yourself as you're listening to this, is you really need to look at this as objective as you really can, because usually what people do is they focus on the pleasure of being with that person but they don't focus on the pain that's really gonna be there.

Morgan:

Right, right. So then that's kinda the next questions, is the pain of staying and the pleasure of leaving, but they aren't realistic about the pain they'll experience in the new relationship. So what sort of pain would they experience if they leave for the affair partner?

Brad:

That's a good question, Morgan. There's a lot of pain there, and the pain of leaving to be with the affair partner is, rarely are they ever truly happy.

Morgan:

Right. There's always a level of mistrust.

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, granted, there's always some Hollywood couple that you could point to. Some exception. There's gonna be some exception to everything. There's gonna be somebody that lives to be 140 years old when everyone else is dying at 70.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

There's gonna be some exception somewhere, but are you that exception?

Morgan:

Right, and it's very rare.

Brad:

It's very unlikely that you're gonna be that exception, because what the research shows is that 80% of people that divorce during an affair, because of an affair, end up regretting it.

Morgan:

Right. And I think part of the reason for that is because they just don't know that person. They don't know their faults, they don't know what they look like in the morning for real, they don't know how they respond or react in different situations and scenarios because they've only seen one side of them.

Brad:

Yeah, well, and Morgan, here's something else. Is, there's a lot of people who, some of you who aren't, who've been betrayed, you might find this surprising, but there's a lot of people who have an affair and they actually fight a lot with the affair partner. It's not uncommon for people to really fight a lot with the affair partner. Talk about-

Morgan:

Pretty normal.

Brad:

Yeah, it's actually normal for them to do that, and that creates the mistrust, that creates reasons not to be with them. People don't really always think about that pain. I've had people who plan to leave, who left, and they're like "Yeah, we fight all the time." They're like "I'm not in limerence because we fight all the time," but they still feel like this is my soul mate, they really minimize the flaws, the negative characteristics that are there. They're not really looking at it objectively, and so that's something you have to ask yourself, is like, what kind of foundation are we creating here for ourselves? If this were a business deal and we were moving forward in business and this is how it started, would you even like this person down the road? Just add in the other normal family stuff.

Brad:

You have to ask yourself, are my kids gonna like this person? Because kids typically feel betrayed too, whenever a parent leaves. So a kid will say "Why are you leaving me and Mom, or leaving me and Dad, and my brothers and sisters to go be with them and raise their kids? Why are you gonna go sleep at their house and take care of them, and you're gonna leave me here?" Kids feel betrayed, and it's very hard to get over stuff like that.

Morgan:

Right. It's hard to build a healthy, happy relationship and marriage and family.

Brad:

In general.

Morgan:

Based on that.

Brad:

Yeah, in general, but when you don't have a good foundation it's a lot harder, and part of this foundation is, people who start out as an affair and then when they do marry, their marriages are twice as likely to divorce, and so it's really something to be mindful of and aware of.

Morgan:

And it's because of that negative cycle, it's because how can you have bonding events, how can you have kinda deep understanding of the person and open yourself up to that person if you just can't know for sure that they're gonna stay with you, and I can't imagine there's any amount of "Oh, don't worry. I'll stay with you, don't worry, I love you, don't worry." You can't really speak to that if the actions haven't followed, if the track record hasn't been solid, to say the least.

Brad:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Morgan.

Morgan:

So let's talk about, what are some things they need to look at, realistically, if they're considering leaving. What should they focus on, what are some things that they should ask themselves, maybe-

Brad:

Good question. Well, I think you have to ... like I said earlier, usually people are focused on the pain of staying with their spouse, and they're focused on the pleasure of being with the affair partner. You need to switch that if you're gonna give yourself a fair chance. You need to think about the pleasure of staying with your spouse and the pain of being with the affair partner.

Brad:

One of the things that you also need to ask yourself is, right now we're in the beginning of this relationship. We're maybe a year in, two years in, we're six months in, we're a month in. You need to ask yourself, and we're fighting right now, we're not getting along right now, we're already talking about can we trust each other. This is the honeymoon of your relationship, so you need to really be fair to yourself and ask this kind of question. You need to think long-term perspective on this.

Brad:

You need to also kinda ask yourself, where am I really watering the grass right now? Because the grass is greener where you water it, so where am I watering the grass right now? Am I watering it with the affair partner and ignoring my spouse? Am I not giving us a fair chance? Am I in limerence, because limerence ends whenever you are actually with that other person. Adversity is what creates limerence, and so if you don't remember when limerence is, limerence is a feeling of lovesickness, romantic love, obsessive love, where you really are just infatuated and head over heels for this other person because you feel wanted by them, where you find them attractive, and what people do is they feel like this is their soul mate. They're willing to give up anything for it.

Brad:

You have to really be fair to yourself, and you're fair to yourself by asking these hard questions.

Morgan:

What will my relationship with this person look like a year from now, two years from now?

Brad:

Yes. And our kids, if they have kids. What's that gonna be like with my kids? Are my kids gonna hate my guts, are they gonna resent me? Because, and again I'm in a unique position with this because of what I do, children also feel betrayed. They often don't know about what happened, because people typically are pretty good at keeping things away from the kids, but if they see mom and dad are divorcing, and kids are smart, they're gonna figure out two plus two equals four. Somebody else was involved in this. They overhear things, kids are bright. Even young kids are gonna figure stuff out.

Brad:

A year later, you're getting married to someone else, they're gonna start feeling betrayed as well, and it's gonna fracture your relationship with them.

Morgan:

Right, and then they're gonna hate, or they'll potentially hate the affair partner, who then will have a terrible relationship with your kids, and they're gonna make it hard for you, probably, to even see your kids, because they have such a terrible relationship with your kids. Your kids make their life miserable, and then what's gonna happen? It's either gonna put a rift between you and your kids, or it's gonna put a rift between you and your new partner, so consider that. You may not see your kids ever again, they may not want to come around you because of the affair partner.

Brad:

Yeah, and you may put every one of them in weekly counseling.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

You really have to think about this. You have to be fair to yourself, ask these hard questions. One of the questions you have to ask yourself is, we've been at this for a while. We've been talking about leaving our spouses and being with each other, and it's been six months and they haven't left yet. It's been a year, they haven't left. It's been three years, they haven't left. It's been three and a half years, four years, they haven't left.

Morgan:

Do they really love me?

Brad:

Do they, yeah. Are they really gonna leave to be with me? Am I really gonna leave to be with them?

Morgan:

Right. And if I did, what's that gonna look like?

Brad:

Yeah, and that goes back to, at the end of the day the spouse is always more important than the affair partner. People may feel ... they may not feel that way when they're in limerence with somebody, they may not feel like my spouse is more important, but at the end of the day, that's the case.

Morgan:

Wouldn't you want the person that you're with, wouldn't you want their full heart? Wouldn't you want all of them and not just a part of them? You know, when you love someone and you care for them, wouldn't you want their full attention? Wouldn't you want all of their love, realistically, you know, their romantic love, but you're not getting that, and you won't ever get that, which is hard for people to grasp.

Morgan:

I think sometimes they think "Oh, surely once they break it off I'll get their full attention, their full love," but will you? Will you get it? I don't know, because like you're saying, they haven't broke off their marriage yet, why not? Because it's hard, sure, but they love their spouse. There's history there.

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

There was a commitment there that was pure and was not defiled from the beginning, so you deserve it. You deserve a relationship where they chose you, they made a definitive choice to be with you from the start, and they sought you out and you did it legitimately because you owe yourself that. You don't want to be the other person, because it doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel like you're winning at life. It just feels terrible to be the other person, so I don't know. Just my thought.

Brad:

Yeah, those are good thoughts, Morgan. And so part of this is ... all of our decisions throughout life are really based on one thing. We're always moving away from pain and towards pleasure, so if we want to change our behavior, change our experience, we have to think more about the pain that we experience with certain behaviors, and the pleasure of not doing certain things. That's basically how we get out of this, and hopefully this has been worth your guys' time. This came up ... and usually all my podcasts are kinda things I'm dealing with throughout the week, or the last few weeks, so I just wanted to kinda talk about this.

Morgan:

So, just to kinda clarify a little piece of what you said too, we want to switch our thinking now. So all along, we've been thinking "oh, the pain of being with our spouse. Oh, the pleasure of being with this person who makes me feel good, maybe lifts my depression," but you need to make a conscious effort to switch that pain-pleasure dichotomy, I guess. So start associating the pain with the reality of leaving for that person. Will it hurt? Yes, it will hurt, and start really marinating on the pain of leaving for the affair partner and start considering the pleasure of healing this relationship with your spouse, so that is important to say.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, that's great. I just wanted to say one last thing.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

This is something that's another piece of research I came across since we recorded the limerence episode, and this is really important because when people experience limerence, they mistake that as this is a sign of who my soul mate's supposed to be.

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

You know, this is who God or the universe is telling me I need to be with. This is my soul mate, but what the research shows us is that when somebody begins a relationship with limerence, that infatuation, that lovesickness, that love addiction, that state we see them as perfect and just feel like when you're with them you feel great and when you're away you feel sad and despair ...

Morgan:

Depressed.

Brad:

Those relationships don't always end up in happy relationships, but when people marry somebody, that starts as a companionship-type relationship.

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

And so what happens is, you marry somebody as a companion, and you feel that companionship love, but then when you sometimes have an affair, what happens is you feel limerence.

Morgan:

For that other person.

Brad:

You feel stronger romantic feelings, then you begin to question your marriage, and so that's an additional piece of that limerence, and I wanted to mention before we go today.

Morgan:

Yeah, that's important. Yeah, so that's really really important. You just dropped a bomb in the middle of this ...

Brad:

And it's time to end. We gotta get going.

Morgan:

Dang it. So maybe we'll impact that a little bit more later. But thank you guys for listening, thank you for being with us today. It's always a pleasure. Thank you for making us the number one podcast for Fair Recovery on iTunes. We will talk to you next time.

Brad:

Thank you guys, bye bye.