Ep 10: Why People Cheat, What Makes A Cheater?, What Leads To Infidelity? Why Did This Happen To You?

Ep 21: 10 Types of Affairs

Ep 29: Childhood of the Betrayer

Transcript

Brad:

They get these message that they have to be self-reliant, it's either outright told to them or it's implied that they got to be self-reliant and they also get messages that are either told to him or hinted at that they can't ask for needs to be met. They got to bottle things up, it's almost like sometimes they got to take care of their parent instead of being able to just be open and honest about how they feel.

Morgan:

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Morgan:

Wherever you are welcome to Healing Broken Trust podcast, we're joining you from our lovely home in the suburbs of Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's a Saturday afternoon during nap time and so it's just you and us for the next half hour or so. We have an interesting topic that we're about today, right Brad?

Brad:

Yeah, this is a really fascinating subject. We're talking about what does the childhood look like, the typical childhood look like of your average person who's unfaithful. So I think this is really fascinating. Of course, I'm a therapist so I'm fascinated by things like this, but I think our listeners will be fascinated by this too.

Morgan:

Yeah, I think so too. So...

Brad:

Because sometimes people get stuck on the why, they don't understand why they did it, and none of this is excuse making, but if you want to understand the psychology of the one who's unfaithful, the psychology of the betrayer this is often a good place to start.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

But it doesn't explain everything so here's what you cannot do, you cannot say you had a crappy childhood, that's why you cheated on me. Because the one who had the affair often doesn't' feel that way. These are things that may influence them, have affected them, but they often won't say it's because of blah, blah, blah from my past is why I cheated on you. They're going to be unhappy about their relationship. But as we'll talk about this we'll see how this influenced them, whereas someone else who was unhappy, or equally unhappy who didn't experience some of these things didn't make the same choices.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

So this is the thing that kind of influences us in some ways subconsciously it impacts us. So this isn't excuse making justifications, anything like that, but it is a way to understand where did they come from, what kind of past did they have, what's the average past look like? And I'm in a unique situation where I get meet people every day who've experienced infidelity, who've betrayed their spouse, so I'm one of the few people on the planet who kind of knows what kind of past they have, what kind of background they have. And so...

Morgan:

Yeah, you've seen so much.

Brad:

Yeah, and it's a lot of fun because you're past isn't your destiny, but if we don't really work on it, and heal wounds we may end up hurting other people.

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

So that's kind of what we're talking about.

Morgan:

That's really interesting. So speaking of one of the things that you had actually brought up, why do some people cheat or why are some people unfaithful and others are not when they have similar pasts that are bad?

Brad:

Yeah, I think part of that really depends on the type of emotional or relational resiliency they develop. A lot of folks will, at least, I don't know if this is accurate, but I think a lot of people have a very unhappy childhood, but they don't always make terrible life choices. Some people have a good childhood and they make terrible life choices, so it's not always predictive. But what really helps people is the amount of emotional support they had. It doesn't matter that you went through terrible things as a child, you immigrated from a different country, you're a refugee, or you were a victim of violence as a child, or a parent died as a child. Those things don't have to predict later behavior but oftentimes they can. But the real factor is did you have somebody there for you emotionally. So those things aren't always causes

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

To being unfaithful. What the real factor is is did they have emotional support, did they have people that they could learn on emotionally, did they have warm parents, did they have both parents who were warm. It's not just enough to really have one not with the way parenting works. You need to have both warm parents, and both parents be involved, and both parents be attentive. You may have been able to get away with dad being out of the home a lot 50 years ago because you had grandparents who were more involved throughout the whole upbringing of the children. Today parents are usually relying on themselves, you don't always have close family units. So...

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

So anyway, the big thing is really resiliency. If you've got emotional support and you've got people there for you in tough times as a child you're going to probably do better...

Morgan:

Do better.

Brad:

Relationally, because here's the thing Morgan, you can even have siblings in the same family. Just as an example, the dad is abusive, or they experienced really deep, traumatizing things, but say the mom comforts the younger sibling because the child's the baby, mom gives it maybe more attention and consideration, and the baby could be like 10 years old and then the other child's like 13. A 13 year old maybe looks a little bit more independent and the child's going through the same stressful as the 10 year old's going through, but they're getting more attention, more warmth, they're learning that they're still valuable, that they're still loved. The 13 year old who wants to be independent on their own they're still going through hell because they're not getting the same...

Morgan:

Message.

Brad:

Message, and so they're not developing that same sense of resiliency. I would say that's really the hidden things that's there.

Morgan:

Okay. So can you paint a picture of the childhood of a typically betrayer or someone who...

Brad:

Is unfaithful.

Morgan:

Is unfaithful, yes. What does it look like?

Brad:

Well I would say the typical childhood boils down to really one thing, or maybe a couple things. The theme is a childhood with cold, emotionally detached parents, inattentive parents, parents who are not just inattentive, but maybe even rejecting, their distant themselves, they're preoccupied with their own issues and problems. They love their kids just as much as I love our son, I'd give anything in the world for our son. They would give anything in the world for their children but they don't really know how to connect emotionally themselves. So you can't give a child something that you don't have yourself. Sometimes there's just this void, lack of emotional connection, this distance. So what this creates, and this is really the important thing, is it creates somebody who is out of touch with their own emotions and feelings, and they feel uncomfortable feeling vulnerable, they feel weak being vulnerable, and so they don't ever want to share that part of themselves with anybody, and they don't share it with their spouse because they don't want to share it with anybody.

Brad:

They love their spouse more than anything and they really cherish their spouse, and I think this is true for almost everybody who cheats. I think there's very few people who really don't care for their spouse at all. I think I would bet money that almost everybody who has an affair really, genuinely cares about their spouse. But here's the thing I want to get to is is they feel uncomfortable being vulnerable, and expressing emotions, and vulnerability, and needs. So when they get unhappy in a relationship they don't go to their spouse and say, "I'm really unhappy, this is really unfair," because they hate conflict. So what they do, and this is all stuff they learned in childhood, so what they do is they just bury it, they keep it to themselves. What ends up happening is is they resent the heck out of their spouse and that's the justification for being unfaithful later.

Morgan:

And something I...

Brad:

They never speak up though, they never say, "Hey, this bother me."

Morgan:

Now their parents would be maybe cold, or distant, or inattentive but I imagine since their parents really do love them that can't be 100% of the time that they're inattentive or distant, it might be inattentiveness or distance surrounding certain things in life or moments in life when they need their mom or dad, but their parent wasn't able to respond and maybe ... I'd like to ask you, is that true, would that be something that you could say that maybe their parent wasn't 100% terrible or distant all the time, maybe their parent just wasn't able to respond when they needed something, or in a moment of crisis, or does it need to be all the time?

Brad:

I think that's great question. I think the biggest wounds people development are wounds of abandonment and betrayal by close loved ones. If I get betrayed by somebody that I'm not emotionally close to that hurts and I might hold resentment towards them. But if you get betrayed by somebody who's your emotional world that will keep you up at night, that will make you obsessed. It won't just put a chip on your shoulder, if it's a colleague who hurts you. That will bother you and it may even bother you for a while. But if it's your own safe haven, the person that's supposed to be there for you, if they betray you, and honestly, if you've never had anybody there before, a parent, a grandparent, mom, dad, any siblings, if you never had anybody there for you emotionally and then you get betrayed it's a lot harder thing to ever trust another person with again.

Brad:

So here's the thought process, and I want to answer your question. And help me make sure I'm answering it, but this is something I jotted down. This is how the person who has an affair thinks, and this is typical because usually the one who has an affair is the one in the relationship who's more the avoider, or the one who shares the least emotionally, they're the one who tends to be more independent, they're the fixer in the relationship. Women can fit that mold. You see a lot of guys with that. Usually a pursuer in the relationship will have an affair when they've been trying for a long time and they feel like they're not getting through to their spouse, and they'll have an affair when they start giving up on the relationship. Their affair is sometimes more about wanting to be attractive, and pretty, and somebody's interested in me.

Brad:

Sometimes it's more about that, and an avoider will have an affair for different reasons, they just don't really trust anybody, and they may not say that. An avoider can be somebody who's really happy, cheerful, outgoing, but what they're avoiding is their emotions because they're uncomfortable, it's a foreign territory for them, they don't know how to navigate it. So an avoider would say, "I am somewhat uncomfortable being close to others. I find it difficult to trust them completely. It's difficult to allow myself to depend on them. I am nervous when anyone gets too close, and often, others want me to be more intimate than I feel comfortable being." So I'll read that again. An avoider would say, "I am somewhat uncomfortable being close to others. I find it difficult to trust them completely. It's difficult to allow myself to depend on them. I am nervous when anyone gets too close, and often, others want me to be more intimate than I feel comfortable being." So I don't really trust you, but at the same time I'm nervous about you getting too close to me. So they're kind of an island, they really thrive on feeling independent, and not needing other people too much, but they do need other people.

Brad:

So what they do is they kind of start turning off emotions, and feelings, and withdrawing, and they shut down with there's an argument, they get quiet, they hold back, and they don't like conflict at all, and so they'll hold back these things. So what happens is over time they build a lot of resentment. Really what they're scared of is giving themselves completely over to the person and fully trusting another person, so they sometimes can have a really low commitment to a relationship. But the irony is is they're not really giving anything extra or special in the affair than what they've already given in their marriage. So even though sometimes spouses read text messages, or love letters, or whatever, they're read this and they're like, "Oh my gosh, he's given this woman all these things that he's never given me." Or he hasn't given that to me in a while. I would venture to say he's not giving her anything, he's not giving anything that he's never given before. He doesn't know how to be truly vulnerable and truly let someone in because of some of these things that we need to get into.

Morgan:

So he's not necessarily giving more to that relationship than he's given to yours because he doesn't know.

Brad:

Yep. Now he may be giving more...

Morgan:

Verbally.

Brad:

Well in this time period.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Like he's having an affair...

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Obviously he's giving more that relationship than the marriage.

Morgan:

Right because he's invested in that more than he's invested in the marriage, and so he might be having sex or something with his other person but he doesn't necessarily let them into his vulnerable dark places.

Brad:

No, no, no and it may feel that way because there's love letters, flowers, pictures, sexting, different things like that. But no, they're not giving anything emotionally of themselves more. They don't suddenly become a different person and now I'm going to be vulnerable with you. Typically that's not what happens.

Brad:

So what does the typical childhood look like of someone who has an affair? What you typically see Morgan is you see parents who are consistently cool, who are consistently inattentive...

Morgan:

Oh so there's consistency to the parents behavior. So it has to be something projected over time.

Brad:

I think it could be both. Like back to your question is it big events that do it, or I think it's a pattern, a behavior that's modeled that they see. But at the same time, if the event is big enough they can lose their trust and just decide I need to learn to lean on myself.

Morgan:

Especially if the event doesn't ever find resolve. If they don't find resolve after that, or healing, or they don't fix the relationship after the big event.

Brad:

Yeah, you got to mend it. You've got to be able to restore, you've got to work through it. I would say the thing that's probably the biggest is there's events but what really does it is I think sometimes it's a combination of both to be honest with you.

Morgan:

Consistency?

Brad:

Yeah, consistency, inattentive, consistency cool, consistently rejecting, even sometimes just being angry, having a parent who is angry with you snapping at you. You learn not to open up. You learn not to open up when they're rejecting, when they're inattentive, when they're just whatever, cool. So what happens is you see this pattern of behavior from the parent's side of just being detached and not really caring about their child emotionally. But you often see because of that these events that happen where they may be the ones hurting the child in abusive ways, or exposing them to risk and harm. So it's more this parenting style that produces these other things, that create...

Morgan:

This illusive cool person who's maybe detached emotionally that then turns into someone who betrays their partner because they don't know how to connect emotionally.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Here's the other thing, I kind of go into a child having this, it later becomes like a potential future cheater. One of them is from the parent they will send messages to the child that they will be punished If they try to seek closeness from the child. So when of the things that can happen is Morgan and I ... I think we might have talked about this on a podcast, but this just ... And I hear about stuff all the time in my office, but this is one I saw firsthand. Our son, we had to take him to the doctor and while we were in the waiting room there was a little five year old girl, big waiting room, the parents were on different sides of the waiting room, little five year old girl looking at fish I the fish tank, and I didn't see it happen but she fell on the ground, tripped and fell. She's of course crying and both of her parents were immediately like...

Morgan:

They didn't do anything.

Brad:

Well they didn't do anything, number one, but do you remember they...

Morgan:

I do.

Brad:

Both of them were saying like, I think it was more the dad, the mom kind of agreed with the dad, unless your arm is cut off...

Morgan:

Or you're bleeding to death.

Brad:

Yeah, unless your arm's cut off or you're bleeding to death quit your crying.

Morgan:

Yeah, don't cry.

Brad:

What that signals to the child is ... But here's the thing, nobody thinks back to that and says, "You know when I was five I couldn't be open." But what they learn is subconsciously, over time, they develop a mental model that becomes their blueprint for future relationships that they can't go to somebody for support. So...

Morgan:

Yeah, they can't go to their parent, that attachment figure.

Brad:

Yeah, they can't go to their parent, I'm going to get punished. So what happens when they enter into a relationship is I can't go to my girlfriend or my boyfriend I'll get punished for it. So what they do is they...

Morgan:

They hide.

Brad:

They hold it in and then they resent their spouse, or their girlfriend, or boyfriend because they're not sharing what they're really feeling and needing, and they magically assume you should know, and they're resenting the crap out of them. Then they are really unhappy in the relationship because they don't ever give themselves to someone completely they kind of get into these affairs, they can either flirt with someone else or they're really susceptible to someone flirting with them. Or when the opportunity arises, because of travel or other things, they're kind of susceptible to it. Nobody's ever going to say when they cheated it was because of this in the doctor's office when I was five.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

The girl's not going to remember that because there's going to be a crap load of other examples that she'll have. But what it is it's the pattern that develops...

Morgan:

That consistent message.

Brad:

That consistent message, and what develops is this mental model this is how relationships work. At that young of an age when that model gets developed you have no idea if this is healthy, or unhealthy, or not, you just know this is how relationships work because that's what you see in your family. You're five years old, you may just be getting to start kindergarten, you may not even be in kindergarten yet. There's a whole lot of crap that's happened yet and you're not even able to logically say this is dysfunctional. You can't even say that. But what's crazy about that is the parents who are 20-25 years older than their daughter are sending those kind of messages to her. I think, and I know, they love their child just as much as we love our son, but that child doesn't get that impression.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

They don't feel lovable, and they can't show that vulnerability because there's a new model that gets developed so what they do is they turn off emotions because they feel weak and inadequate and what they're really getting away from when they withdraw, and shut down, and are quiet, and aren't vulnerable, is they're really getting away from those feelings of feeling inadequate, that's what's really going on. It's not about always getting away from their spouse. Sometimes they don't want to create conflict, but they're really trying to get away from "I feel inadequate and I don't want to express that kind of vulnerability because I'll weak, and if you think I'm weak and not strong you won't like me very much."

Morgan:

Yeah...

Brad:

And so that's...

Morgan:

I'm not going be ... Those feeling of...

Brad:

I'm not going to be good enough.

Morgan:

Yeah, and those feelings of weakness are going to be validated, those feelings of inadequacy are basically validated by the partner. So they don't want to go there.

Brad:

Well yeah and they value peace because they feel closest to their partner or spouse when there's not conflict. Obviously you have to deal with crap in a marriage to really have a good marriage, you can't just brush stuff under the rug, you got to be open and honest.

Morgan:

And that's also why it's important that if your partner does come to you with something that's vulnerable, or that gives you a glimpse of what's really happening inside their mind, in their heart, to not swipe at them and get upset with them because it validates that fear of they're not going to accept me, I'm not going to be okay. So I think being able to look out for those things as they come, if they are vulnerable with you, to be able to see it as it comes your way, I think is really valuable, and I think that's just a tremendous thing. I know you teach people how to do that in the retreats and stuff like that.

Brad:

Yeah, because this is not set in stone. You really need therapy help because this could change, and hopefully listening to this is helpful. But this isn't set in stone, people can change out of this.

Morgan:

Right, yeah, so that's a good question that you're leading into I think. If they've had this childhood, and they've responded the way they have, and it's led them down the path of infidelity, getting to this once a cheater always a cheater, is that really possible? Can they get out of that? Can they change? Can they be different? If they identify these patterns in their life can they change? Can they become no longer someone down that path I guess?

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good question. I think they can change, I think the best way to change though is couple's therapy. You have to have that because you have to feel like you can let them into your secrets, into your vulnerability, into the deepest, and darkest, scariest place emotionally. You have to be able to let them in and you have to feel like you can trust them for you not to cheat on them.

Morgan:

You know what I think is so interesting, some of these...

Brad:

Let me finish this thought here...

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Because if you don't do that you're always going to be prone to having another affair. Now your spouse, if you cheat on them, you may eventually earn their trust, work your butt off, you do all these things, they finally trust you. But for you to never stray again you have got to know that you can trust them emotionally and lean on them emotionally, and you got to feel like there's nothing holding you back. You've got to feel like yes, I can give myself completely do you, there's nothing holding me back, and you've got to feel like you can share anything with them. If you feel like there's things that you cannot share people are going to get in trouble there.

Morgan:

Because then you're starting to keep those secrets. Those secrets kind of start seeping again and then that vulnerability or that resentment can seep in again.

Brad:

I want to finish this and then I'll fly it on to the parenting that they've experienced. So the first one is parents are consistently inattentive, consistently cool, rejecting or angry in their responses to the young children. Children are met with threats of punishment for trying to get close to their parents, like that little girl in the doctor's waiting room.

Morgan:

Or they say, "Grow up. You need to stop crying." But crying for a little kid is their language, they don't have English skills, they don't know how to speak...

Brad:

Well and Morgan...

Morgan:

Like an adult.

Brad:

You bring up a good point. You bring up a good point. When earlier when we were talking about resiliency, you develop resiliency because you feel like you got somebody who has your back. The people who are probably the weakest with the least amount of resiliency are the people who have this relationship style that we're talking about because they don't ever know how to trust anybody else or fall back on someone else. People like this can be maybe great soldiers, go to Antarctica, be the sole man who goes to Mars on a one person mission to Mars because they've turned off their relationship needs and ability to...

Morgan:

That part of their brain.

Brad:

Yeah, they turn that off. But when their spouse dies, or when somebody dies, or when they're really in a crisis they break down, they suffer the worst, they never really truly recover. And the real issue is they don't let anybody in. They think the real issue is I'm just depressed, or work sucks, or this, or this, or that...

Morgan:

Which could be true, but the real issue is...

Brad:

Yeah, those things are important. But the real issue is they don't know how to really let anybody in, their defenses, they turn off their emotions. So Morgan the third thing is, and this is something we hinted at, there's violent or abusive behavior on the part of an attachment figure. An attachment figure is somebody that you trust, that you feel like you can go to in times of difficulty like a parent, grandparent, older sibling, maybe even a younger sibling, close friend of the family, but you get abused by that person. So what that tells you as a kid is man I cannot be open. I can't even go to my own dad, he's an alcoholic and he's beating the crap out of mom, and he's threatened to beat me, gets in my face, he's hit me where I've had marks, I couldn't go to school. If I can't trust dad who can I trust? And so...

Morgan:

What does that say about me as a person.

Brad:

Yeah what does that say about me if my own dad doesn't like me and he's beating the crap out of me.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

That says a lot. So that creates somebody who's got this relationship style of being able to really be where they feel really uncomfortable being close to others. They find it difficult to trust them completely. It's difficult to allow themselves to depend on someone else, and they're nervous about someone getting too close, and they find that they're in relationships where the other partner always wants them to be more open, reveal more.

Brad:

Then the last thing you hinted at. They have parents who either outright says, or hint at, that they need to be more self-reliant, more independent...

Morgan:

That's right.

Brad:

You got to be tougher, you got to stand on your own feet. Don't get me wrong, you got to do that age appropriately, but if you're doing that at an inappropriate age level. Your high school student loses his girlfriend and he's sad about that you can't just tell him sorry bud, move one, you're going to meet a girl in college. You can do that later, but you can't do that...

Morgan:

In the moment when he's hurting.

Brad:

Well yeah, you got to just comfort him and try to be there, and listen. Eventually you can say, "I went through the same thing, and that's when I met your mother, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I know right now it doesn't feel that way but I'm always here and if I can talk with you about it I'm here."

Morgan:

Yeah, instead of the opposite where it's like, "Grow a pair, stop crying."

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

"Suck it up. Be a man."

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

That doesn't work, it doesn't draw them closer, it doesn't teach them how to manage their feelings, or their emotions, or their needs. They just shut down, and pull away from you, and that's how they respond to their spouse.

Brad:

Absolutely. The other thing is they get these messages that they got be self-reliant, it's either outright told to them or it's implied that they got to be self-reliant and they also get messages that are either told to them or hinted at that they can't ask for needs to be met. They got to bottle things up. It's almost like sometimes they got to take care of their parent instead of being able to just be open and honest about how they feel. One of the things that's dangerous about this Morgan, and this is not meant to make anybody feel terrible. But unless we think about these things and work on these things on ourselves, because we have that mental model we can do it to our own kids. So we have to be aware of this and think about this, and we have to really be able to provide for our own kids secure attachment.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

In relationships we always ask, "Are you there for me?" And if we feel like our caregiver is there for us we feel worth of love and will have a secure relationship style where we feel like we can be open, and honest, and totally give ourselves to somebody.

Morgan:

Yeah, and I think as I've listened to you say this it really brings to mind kids of parents who are alcoholics, who maybe were a sexual abuse survivor, incest survivor, and like I say, it's not always physical bruises, but there are emotional bruises, there's psychological bruising that happens and if you don't deal with it, if you don't handle it, if you don't heal from it, and you can't really do it alone, it's not anything you can do alone, and it's typically much better when you can heal with the one that's your spouse, the one that's your...

Brad:

Oh yeah, it's a heck of a lot better. Here's the thing Morgan, it's your spouse who's validating in confirming you, it's a deeper level of change...

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Than individual therapy.

Morgan:

Than just individual therapy, yeah.

Brad:

Let your spouse validate in you, not a stranger who's nice, it's your own spouse.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And that...

Morgan:

That attachment figure...

Brad:

Yeah, that attachment figure.

Morgan:

That person in your life that's supposed to love you unconditionally like your parent was supposed to love you unconditionally. So I personally, I understand this at a personal level just how difficult it can be to have be the caregiver to the parent. So if that's you, I know I haven't been an unfaithful person, so you can totally not come away as an unfaithful person, and that sort of thing. But it does affect and impact your relationships with other people, and the most important relationship with your spouse, it does impact that. So it's really important to get the help, to heal this is really what I'm trying to say.

Brad:

Yes, of course. Because, Morgan, to answer your question once a cheater always a cheater, I think you're prone to do it again if you don't get the help. This is not something ... It's not even that you have to come to us, we're available, we have retreats, we work, it's what we do. We love it. But you've got to the help because if you don't, and you can't let somebody in, you're prone to repeat the past, and even when you had. People hate doing this crap but they still find themselves drug to it because they're not really working with somebody who knows how to help them.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

It's like trying to lose weight. It's like you see somebody who's obese, who's really overweight, they've done everything they can, they yo-yo diet, they're trying to break it but sometimes you got to go get outside help. Some things are just bigger than us and we got to go get help, there's no shame in that.

Morgan:

No.

Brad:

Nobody would say to somebody who's overweight, that's been yo-yo dieting for years there's any shame in going to get help with that.

Morgan:

No.

Brad:

You would encourage them to do it.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

So if you're listening to us and you are yo-yoing in your own version of a yo-yo diet in your relationship, and trying to be faithful, and trying to heal from an affair don't do it. Nobody thinks you're crazy if you go get help it's not a sign of weakness, you don't think that about anybody who's that way with their weight, why think that about yourself? Don't be naïve, don't be dumb about that.

Brad:

The other thing Morgan, I want to give a couple examples...

Morgan:

Oh yes, yeah please.

Brad:

Of childhoods. The big thing here is they are emotionally just like I said, those four things. That's the common thing. You just need one of those to really develop into an avoidant relationship style. Here's an example of some of these things that we're talking about. One of them is a parent teaching a child to lie, we don't tell mom about this, keep this a secret for me, I'm going to tell you what it is, but keep this a secret from mom. What does that child lean about relationships? That it's okay to have secrets. It's okay to not fully give yourself over to someone, so it's foolish to trust somebody. Hide things to keep the peace so that child learns that. People don't really question things that they learn from their parents, they just kind of automatically they hear it and then they act it out, they live it out...

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And they don't question it. You eat it, you don't contemplate it.

Morgan:

They're kids.

Brad:

Yeah they're kids and it's where you start learning these relationships. So anyway, the second thing is I had a client once, I had him what his happiest childhood memory was and he said, "Christmas because that's the time of year", he said holidays actually, "because that's the time of year that I knew my mom loved me, that's the only time she ever said she loved me." So this particular person never really had just one best friend, he had a bazillion friends but he never really let anybody in on his emotional world because first he couldn't do it with mom. Then it played out into his relationship where he could never really give himself to his wife.

Morgan:

So they were just very shallow relationships.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah. An abusive dad, one that's physically abusive, that hurts mom, that's abusive towards the child. That's an alcoholic, you just learn you can't trust. There's a common theme you're not there for me, I can't trust you. I can't get my needs met through you, I've got to shut down because this is scary. We develop that template and then we use that even though our spouse isn't that way. Maybe they are, but most likely they're probably not that way. We still act like they are, we still hide, and withdraw, and don't fully give ourselves because our first example were of never giving ourselves completely. So what happens is when our spouse wanting us to be more open with them it feels very foreign to us, it feels very uncomfortable, extremely uncomfortable. And most people can't do it on their own, so it's kinda ... What we talked about, therapy, going to therapy. Having a parent who's not an attachment figure but like a grandparent, you got to go to a grandparent to get your needs met, you can't even go to your own parent. Your parents are so messed up you can't even go to them but you go to go to a grandparent.

Morgan:

Or a teacher.

Brad:

Yeah or a teacher, or someone else, a coach, somebody who's been sexually abused. Just the general theme is cut off parents who aren't there. We're going to hear it from all the time people who say ... Because here's the golden question, I hear people all the time who say, "I had a great childhood." And I'll follow up with the golden question, "Well who did you go to when you were hurt, sad, or afraid? When you were lonely as a kid." "Well nobody." Or if they say they could, "Who did you go to? So you could go to somebody, who was it?" "It was probably mom that I could go to." "Well can you give me examples of when you did that." "Come to think of it I can't. Did I go to mom? I don't remember ever going to her actually. Or it never occurred to me that I could." Those are all things that are examples in this avoidant attachment style and many people who end up becoming unfaithful that's kind of the childhood that they had.

Brad:

So hopefully this has been beneficial for you guys. We don't want to lead you into any confusion or anything, so hopefully this has been beneficial. This is not destiny, this doesn't have to be this way, it doesn't have to because it's your childhood or your spouse's childhood doesn't mean it's predictive of future results in the future, but you do have to go do work on it because most likely it can be, maybe it will be. So you got to go to work on it.

Brad:

Here's just some other childhood's that ... Let me move my papers around so I can share this. Other examples of childhoods, the kind of childhood that we want is we want to be able to say, "We had a secure childhood that produces where we feel like our caregiver is there for us and we feel worthy of love because our caregiver was attentive, they were responsive to us, and they were engaged with us." So somebody that has a secure style would say, "I find it relatively easy to get close to others and I'm comfortable depending on them, and having them depend on me. I don't worry about being abandoned, or about someone getting too close. I'm very comfortable in this relationship." So people who are securely attached who are married to each other are going to be the ones who have the best relationships because they both feel comfortable being vulnerable and open.

Brad:

But, now earlier when I was talking about a pursuer who gets burned out and then they have an affair, this is typically what they're going to say. They're going to say, "I find that other," this is what an anxious partner would say, a pursuer, "They're going to say I find that others are reluctant to get close as I would like. I often worry that my partner doesn't really love me and won't want to stay with me. I want to get very close to my partner and this sometimes scares people away." So an anxious is going to say, "I find that others are reluctant to get as close as I would like. I often worry that my partner doesn't really love me or won't want to stay with me." So they're really anxious about the state of their relationship. "I want to get very close to my partner and this sometimes scares people away." So those folks will have an affair when they start feeling like I'm not going to get my needs met in this relationship, kind of like what we talked about last time in "Hell or High water, Despair and Detachment", that they will begin to grieve that they're not going to get their relationship needs met and then they're vulnerable to an affair happening.

Morgan:

Yeah, so definitely check out that episode. It's called "Hell or High Water, Despair and Detachment," because it's really helpful to understand what happens whenever you start to burn out of the relationship and where it goes from there.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Morgan that's it for right now. Any questions, anything else we need to look over?

Morgan:

Well I think that you've really described avoidant attachment pretty well. Can you sum it up in more of a definitive way, what in a couple of words does avoidant attachment mean?

Brad:

Avoidant attachment in a few words means I don't trust you and I'm uncomfortable getting close to you.

Morgan:

Okay, so an avoidant attachment person if they don't feel like they can...

Brad:

I don't feel like I can give all of myself to you because I don't trust you. And you may be perfect, but if I'm afraid you'll me as weak then that causes me to hold back.

Morgan:

And that holding back causes the negative cycle to spiral and it can open up vulnerabilities for them to cheat, to have an affair.

Brad:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Morgan:

Okay, and ultimately what we're saying is that their children is a big indicator of...

Brad:

This is where avoidant ... Childhood is where the avoidant detachment's created.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

You don't go from a secure attachment style all throughout childhood and then you leave home, and you're an adult, and then develop an avoidant attachment style. That typically doesn't happen. You've got to develop a lot of ... A lot of crap's got to happen for that to develop. But an avoidant attachment style in just a few words is I don't really trust you with myself, giving you all of myself, and my emotions. I prefer my independence and that's because of the way they were raised. They couldn't really trust their parents.

Morgan:

Okay, and then ultimately it boils down to if you can get help and you work on these things you don't have to go down that path, it doesn't necessarily have to be the end for you. You don't have to experience infidelity in your relationship if you can identify what's really happening emotionally and take the necessary actions. I think that's great. Thank you very much Brad for explaining this to us and I think that's the show.

Brad:

Yeah, thank you guys for listening.

Morgan:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Healing Broken Trust podcast. Are you ready to take the next step? Go to healingbrokentrust.com and schedule your one on one coaching call today. That's healingbrokentrust.com.

Ep 31: When They Have A Baby As A Result of An Affair

Ep 37: Your Approach Is Failing

Transcript:

Morgan:

Hey, let's get away to a beautiful location for a destination retreat that will transform your relationship. This opportunity is unlike anything you've done before. Two days with Brad will give your relationship the boost it needs. Then enjoy the beautiful scenery. Go to HealingBrokenTrust.com for more information. Do it soon because time is limited.

Brad:

You're not a failure, your spouse isn't a failure. Your approach is failing you, the strategy you're using is failing you. You may have been to therapists, you may have gone to counseling. You may have done different things on your own to try to heal, but it's really the strategy or the approach that you're taking, that's what's failing you.

Morgan:

Welcome to today's show. I'm Morgan Robinson here with Brad, my husband.

Brad:

Hey guys.

Morgan:

We are excited to bring this week's show to you. First we want to say thank you so much for making us the number one podcast for affair recovery. It is our pleasure to be here and to bring this information to you. Today we're talking about are you stuck? If you're stuck in the process of healing from infidelity, there's a simple concept that we're going to talk about today, and really we're going to break it down into seven points.

Morgan:

There's different things that people do, ways that they approach the healing process that really does not serve them well. We want to point these out so that you can avoid them, so that you don't fall into the pitfalls and the pothole along the way, or whatever. Brad, you want to start us off?

Brad:

Thank you, Morgan. I just want to say, sometimes when couples get stuck in this affair recovery process, they often feel like, "Man, we're not any good together. We suck. Gosh, you suck."

Morgan:

Counseling isn't working or whatever you're trying to do.

Brad:

Yeah, whatever you're trying to do. Really, this is just a simple concept, and we're going to show it in seven areas that is probably the most common, or very common areas that people fall behind in this. To be honest with you it's really, you're not a failure, your spouse isn't a failure, your approach is failing you.

Brad:

The strategy you're using is failing, and so you may have been to therapists, you may have gone to counseling, you may have done different things on your own to try to heal, but it's really the strategy or the approach that you're taking, that's what's failing you, it's not that you are a failure or that your spouse is a failure.

Brad:

You may disagree with me on that, that your spouse isn't a failure, but I don't think they are. I just think the strategy or the approach that they're trying to take is failing you guys. If you're getting stuck in this process and you're not really finding healing, you're not really moving forward, it's probably the approach or strategy that you're taking, it's not really you.

Brad:

I'm certain that you're very successful in a lot of areas of your life, but it's just the approach that you're taking in this, in this crisis. Right now the building is on fire or the smoke alarms are going off. The wrong strategy is to say, "You know what? I got some time. I'll just wait, and I bet it's a false alarm" or "I don't need to start walking out of the building and getting to safety." That's a wrong strategy, that's a wrong approach.

Brad:

You're not a failure, just you've been using the wrong strategy and the wrong approach. These are areas where people tend to have the wrong strategy in.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

I heard this from a client and it's really funny. They gave me this name, and so I'm using their words. If they're listening, they're going to know who they are, but it's kind of smiling as I say it. Trickle down info, trickle truth is what he called it. If you have trickle truth, this is where you're basically not really coming forward with the truth, the honesty that the injured partner needs to be able to heal. That's a strategy that's going to fail you.

Brad:

Because people, they need the truth, they need the truth. They don't give it up. They don't just say, "Okay, I guess I'm not going to get it." They continue to feel like they're being lied to, they continue to be hyper vigilant, they continue to really struggle, and so they need that truth.

Brad:

Just get it over with, just bring it all out. Just dump it out there. Then you can get on with more of the healing journey and really the main parts of the healing journey. Because the truth part is a big component, but it's not probably even the main component, Morgan, to be honest with you. It's a part of it, but it's almost like playing the game Monopoly. It's part of the game that allows you to pass go and you get $200 every time you pass go, but that's not how you win Monopoly. It's not who passes go more. There's other strategies that help you win Monopoly.

Brad:

Part of the affair recovery process is you do need the truth though. Don't get me wrong. If your spouse needs the truth, if they feel like they're not getting the full story from you, they're going to need that to be able to let it go and heal because they need to see you as trustworthy, but there's so much more to the healing process than just that stage. That's one area where people take the wrong approach.

Morgan:

Absolutely. If you think that just withholding parts of the information is actually going to help your relationship, we've talked about this before, it's not. It's not going to do what you think it will, it's not going to help.

Brad:

It's always been a crash and burn scenario, always.

Morgan:

Always, absolutely. Let's go on to the second point. I hear this often when I talk to people over the phone. They assume that their partner needs to go fix themselves, or they need to go learn why they did it before they can join them in counseling. They're saying "Hey, you go fix yourself. You go visit the marriage counselor by yourself or you go to individual therapy, and maybe I'll join you later, because you need to figure out why you did it. You need to figure out what's wrong with you," or whatever their thought process is, "Before I'll come with you."

Morgan:

That's really just a false strategy. It's not a strategy that helps. It's not a strategy that actually really gets you answers. One thing I tell people, and this is very true. Let's say your spouse ... Yes, there are situations where they do need individual therapy, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying if they go to therapy, if they go see the marriage counselor by themselves to understand why they did it, and they figure out why they did it, it doesn't fix the communication problem in the relationship, and it doesn't help them come back to you and explain to you why they did it. Because number one, you're still traumatized.

Brad:

Morgan, part of it is, is many times people will have an affair because they felt rejected first or unwanted first, and this is barring cases of sex addiction, where somebody felt unwanted first or undesired by their spouse. They got caught in a negative cycle. The answer they came up with may be, "I wasn't happy with you. You hurt me."

Brad:

Most of the time, you're really going to be benefited by working with an expert to help you work through the affair recovery process. There might be limited circumstances where it's a good idea to go figure it out on your own, and go get individual treatment, but really both of you need to be getting help in your marriage.

Morgan:

Right. Really, before you self-diagnosis, because I think that's the biggest thing. You self-diagnose, and you think, "Well, this is my answer. This is what our problem really is." You need to let the professional do that first. Let them know what you think is going on so that they can get a really good full picture of both sides so then they can say, "Yeah, that's the case" or "No, let's do this." Make sure you don't self-diagnose and assume that somebody needs to go by them self first, because that's really going to shoot you in the foot.

Morgan:

Okay, ready for the third one?

Brad:

The third one we have here is really minimizing your partner's feelings. Thinking that they should be able just to stuff what they've experienced and be able to just, so both of you can go on your merry way and be happy with each other. "You've got to stuff this pain and trauma that I caused you so that I can be happy again." That's pretty selfish.

Morgan:

Yeah, and I don't think that people consciously, always consciously do that, but they'll do it in certain ways, and I'm sure you'll explain.

Brad:

Yeah. People feel like, "Hey, stuff this, bottle this. I hurt you in this way. I'm stuffing my pain so we can be together." That's the strategy that's destined to fail because what's not happening there, you're not taking on your spouse's emotional needs. Your spouse is not seeing you as a safe person who cares about them and their pain.

Brad:

They're just saying, "Hurry the heck up. Let's get this process over with. Let's enjoy life. I'm tired of trying to answer your questions. I'm tired of you getting triggered. I'm tired of you asking about the affair partner. Let's just go on." An approach that really fails is minimizing your partner's feelings.

Morgan:

Downplaying it.

Brad:

Downplaying it. You really have to take on their emotional needs. You got to work to be a safe person for each other. That goes both ways, but you really got to work to be safe for each other emotionally. Morgan, that leads us to the next one.

Morgan:

Yean, and sometimes people will say, "Oh, I got it, I know, I hurt you. I got it, I know, I hurt you." That's really still that minimizing and downplaying.

Morgan:

Anyways, let's go on to number four. Time will heal all wounds. The strategy that really just doesn't work. Time will not heal the wounds. It might minimize some of the trauma for a time but it's not going to make the trauma go away. We find a lot of people that are just not able to be vulnerable with each other anymore. They're not able to let each other in because there's this lack of trust that's always going to be there if you don't deal with it. Do you have anything to add?

Brad:

Yeah. What I would add to that is time doesn't heal squat. What really helps people heal is really being able to heal in each other's arms. Just thinking, "We're going to drop this, we're going to bury it, and we're going to go on." Usually what happens when people take the time heals all wounds approach is numbness sets in, and emotional distance sets in.

Brad:

People really get to a point of feeling, "I might be better off just on my own. They hurt me in this really dreadful way." It's not the one who had the affair who thinks about leaving, it's the one who got betrayed because it's like, "This is it? This is the makeup? This is the honeymoon? This is how things are going to be? I'm over here traumatized and you don't care."

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Time doesn't heal all wounds. Usually the people who have that strategy are people who are not getting help, who are not getting expert help. They're the ones who will adopt that strategy of, "Hey, time heals all wounds, we don't need counseling. Let's just do it on our own. We'll be okay. It's going to be hard, six months, but we'll make it."

Morgan:

That's the same group of people that will minimize.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah. They'll do that as well.

Morgan:

Ready for the next one?

Brad:

Yeah. The next one here is thinking that just getting answers to your questions alone will solve all of the relationship problems. Because really what's underneath the questions that people ask persistently is really, "I'm afraid. Can I trust you? Can I get my needs met with you? Am I safe with you?" Every time you hear your spouse ask a question, and every time that you ask a question, it's really because what you're saying is, "I'm still afraid. I want to know that I can trust you. I want to know that my heart is safe with you."

Brad:

Sometimes our head says, "This is scary," but our heart still loves our spouse. We want them with us, we want them close. Sometimes we think that we have to always get it logically. Sometimes if we approach it in a black or white way ... Obviously, infidelity's always wrong in my book. I don't think there's ever really a circumstance where infidelity is right. If there is, I would be shocked if there's actually a circumstance where it's okay to cheat or have an affair. I don't think there is.

Brad:

When people have an affair and go through that, it's not a black and white thought process for them, it's actually very gray. To try and think that you can understand it through logic alone or understanding alone, you can't. Obviously given the story and details helps but that alone will not help you heal. That will just say, "At least you're trying and you're trustworthy, and I can understand you, and you're more predictable." People sometimes get stuck in this loop of, "I need these questions answered," and that alone doesn't always heal.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

There is a point though, because I need to be careful, there's a point where that's really needed in the healing journey, but there becomes a point where that's not really going to ever help somebody heal.

Morgan:

Right, so answering why is not going to be the end all, be all. It's not going to be the thing ...

Brad:

It's important.

Morgan:

It's important but it's not going to be the thing, the only thing that causes you to somehow love your spouse again, trust your spouse again, fully open up to your spouse again. It's not going to be the only thing that leads to complete healing.

Brad:

No.

Morgan:

Let's move on to number six. Not sharing your vulnerable side. Your emotions, your vulnerability, what's really deep inside, what's really going on for you. Not sharing that is a terrible strategy. You'll just land flat on your face every time, but that is so scary for so many people.

Morgan:

Because that vulnerable side is like I mean, "First of all, you've hurt me with this affair. Second of all, before the affair happened, there was this terrible negative cycle, and we were always at each other's throat. I could never really count on you. I could never really get close, for whatever reason. Now you're asking me to be vulnerable? I couldn't be vulnerable before."

Morgan:

This is where therapy's really, really important because you have that safe place. You have that safe person, so that you're not going to be torn to shreds because they're not going to let it happen. You can learn to get to that vulnerable place so that you don't let this happen again. Because that's really, answering why, understanding all the detailed questions, I mean that's very important but it's not going to be the thing that allows that vulnerability to just magically appear.

Morgan:

It's the professional who knows how to help you get there. That's where you're going to start really healing and being able to then get close to your spouse again, and have those bonding events that we've talked about in previous episodes. Brad, do you want to add to that?

Brad:

Yeah. All I would add to that, Morgan, is really that approach of encountering the vulnerable side, sharing your vulnerable side, sharing your deep, primary emotion, sharing the sadness, and the hurt, and the fear, and letting your spouse see that part of you. In these conversations when they encounter that, they encounter somebody who's safe. They encounter somebody that maybe the don't believe always or trust as far as they can throw them, but they're a tad more believable, they're a tad more ...

Morgan:

Safe.

Brad:

Safe. That vulnerability is really the key to healing. Most people, I say most, I really think probably almost everybody really struggles to do that because of these negative cycles that people get caught into. These negative cycles are just really a ...

Morgan:

They're intense.

Brad:

Well, they're intense but it's the pattern we had before the affair, and if it's not addressed we're going to be healing with the pattern that we had before we had the affair.

Morgan:

Ready for the next one?

Brad:

Yeah. This a big one, Morgan. It's thinking that you can do it on your own. Nobody in their right mind who gets diagnosed with cancer is going to think, "Hey, I can do this on my own." They're going to think, "Hey, this is a crisis. My life is falling apart. I'm just going to go do this on my own."

Morgan:

Take supplements.

Brad:

"I'm going to take supplements, eat fruit I like. Just go vegan and that's going to cure my cancer." Not too many people have that kind of ... That's a wrong strategy, that's a wrong approach.

Morgan:

Steve Jobs.

Brad:

Yeah, well the wrong approach is really just thinking you can do it on your own. Part of that is not being in intensive therapy. If you are working through the healing process and you're only doing an hour a week of counseling, that's not really an effective approach. I really discourage it. Sometimes I have that happen for financial reasons but ...

Morgan:

Where people want to do once a week?

Brad:

Yeah, do once a week.

Morgan:

For an hour?

Brad:

Yeah. Once a week for an hour. Then it's like they don't come in every week and then they get escalated and it's like ...

Morgan:

Right, yeah.

Brad:

"Sorry guys it's, you're dealing with some major stuff here."

Morgan:

You have to follow the process.

Brad:

Yeah, but a big part of this is just thinking the financial cost outweigh any benefit of getting help for your marriage. It's like, "Man, this is going to be way more expensive than any benefit that we're going to get out of it."

Brad:

Really, you need to think about, when is the right time to get marriage counseling? If it's not now, then when? Is it when the kids are older and you've been healing with the same pattern that you have now when they leave the house? There's numbness and the one who got betrayed is like, "Screw this. I'm done." When is the right time? If it's not now, then when? If this isn't a time to get marriage counseling and to go see an expert, and to get help, I don't know what is.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

If you broke your arm, and you see a bone protruding out of your arm, through the flesh, that's a good time to go to the emergency room.

Morgan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Brad:

That's not a time to go do it on your own and patch things up.

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

That's one of the biggest mistakes people make. As many couples as I see who've experienced infidelity, there are so many others that never go talk to anybody, never go get help or if they do, it's one and done. It's just one session. They're not getting the help, they're not looking at resources. Obviously you guys are the exception to that. You're listening to this podcast and you're learning and you're growing. Many of you guys have inquired about working with us for retreats, that's an option that we have for you guys. We would love to work with you personally, but you can't hold on to that kind of false belief.

Morgan:

Yeah, exactly. If you'd like to learn more about how you can work with us, you can go to HealingBrokenTrust.com, that's HealingBrokenTrust.com. We have resources there for you, and you can set up your retreat. You're also welcome to call our office, and the phone number is there on the website as well.

Brad:

You're also able to do a coaching call as well.

Morgan:

That's right. If you would like to learn more about it, you can talk to our office or you can schedule a coaching call and learn more about how you can take advantage of the retreat. All right guys, have a great week.

Brad:

Thank you. Bye, bye.

Ep 38: Healing Wounds Through Bonding Events

Transcript:

Morgan:

Hey, let's get away to a beautiful location for a destination retreat that will transform your relationship. This opportunity is unlike anything you've done before. Two days with Brad will give your relationship the boost it needs. Then enjoy the beautiful scenery. Go to healingbrokentrust.com for more information. Do it soon, because time is limited.

Brad:

How do I know you're going to do the same to me? You grew up with them, you created this life with them, they have this level of significance and attachment meaning to you. I don't have any of that with you. Granted, you feel like I'm your soul mate, but how do I know the tables aren't going to turn on me once you stop feeling that way?

Morgan:

Hey guys, welcome to the show. I'm Morgan Robinson here with Brad, my handsome husband.

Brad:

Hidey ho, everybody.

Morgan:

Hello, and before we get started we want to say, we have some amazing destination retreats available. Actually, we have filled our calendar in June and July for destination retreats, so we don't have anything available for June or July, but we do have a destination retreat available for August 30 and 31, that's a Wednesday and Thursday, so if you want to get away from your problems, where they are, no matter where you are, and come to a beautiful sunny destination, really get a new lease on life ...

Brad:

To maybe Cancun or Florida, to get away.

Morgan:

Yeah, then you can book a destination retreat over the phone, you can give us a call at 918-281-6060 and book that destination retreat today while it's still available, and you can check us out on the web at healingbrokentrust.com. We hope to see you soon.

Morgan:

There are some destination retreats available further out, but also we have retreats available in our Tulsa office, so you can come to Tulsa and do a retreat in the office, we just don't have any getaway retreats in June and July available at this point in time.

Morgan:

Let's go ahead and get started. We've had several people over the years, and we have lots of people who call us and talk with us and say "My spouse has left for the other person, or they want to leave," and we sometimes hear from that spouse who says, you know, "I want to leave, I'm thinking about leaving for the affair partner," and they say, "Well, I don't know if counseling will work," or they might be afraid that they won't ever be happy in their marriage or in their present relationship as they are or would be in the affair.

Morgan:

Today we're gonna talk about that, why not just leave for the affair partner? So Brad, do you want to talk a little bit about what the research says?

Brad:

Sure, yeah, sure. We can talk about the research, Morgan, talk about my experience in working with couples on this issue.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

And Morgan, let me just briefly say this: this is a hard topic for me to talk about because I always try to be fair to everybody.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And this one, it's hard to talk about because the reality of the situation is pretty bleak. The statistics are really stacked against people who go and try to be with the affair partner. I just don't want anybody to think I'm being unfair by describing my experience of working with couples with this and by delivering statistics, but this is something that we encounter a lot, and I've helped people work through.

Brad:

Our listeners, they only know us through this podcast, so we're really trying to be fair, and part of that fairness is kinda accurately reporting what we experience in doing this and what the research shows.

Morgan:

Exactly. Right.

Brad:

So, why not leave? Why stay, basically? And I think, like you said, there's research on this. One of the pieces of research shows that only a small number of people who left their spouse to go marry their affair partner are still married.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

There's only a small number of people that are still married after five years who started their marriage as an affair.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Five years later, are still married.

Morgan:

And I was really surprised to hear that actually, a small percentage leaves. So, as someone who's experienced betrayal I think many believe that the betrayer will just leave for the affair partner, but you're saying that it's actually a small percentage that actually leave. Why is that?

Brad:

Why is it a small percentage that actually leave and not a larger percentage?

Morgan:

Yeah, yeah, like everybody.

Brad:

First of all, a lot of people know that an affair is impractical. They aren't really in love with the affair partner. Maybe there's certain things that they enjoy from the affair, but they're not truly in love with the affair partner. Not everybody feels like they're married to the wrong person, in that the affair partner's their soul mate. The people who tend to think that the affair partner's their soul mate and get really stuck on that limerence, they're the ones that are going to be thinking about leaving to go be with the affair partner.

Brad:

So, not every affair is that way, so not everybody who has an affair is just automatically thinking "Hey, I want to go be with this person." Some people know that they can see the reality of the situation, say this isn't gonna be pretty. They're able to see the pain of what the separation will bring, from their spouse. They're able to see ... and honestly, they're even able to see the pain of what it will be like to be with the affair partner.

Brad:

In the biggest reason why people don't leave, they also know the significance that their spouse has, and that their family has, on their lives. A lot of people see their spouse as somebody they had children with, that they became an adult with, that they grew up with.

Morgan:

They have history with.

Brad:

They have history with them.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Their spouse is a good person, but there's also this inherent distrust towards somebody that they've had an affair with, so most people don't leave, because the affair partner's not really what they want, so they don't leave. But the people who do leave tend to be people that have gotten caught in limerence, which is something that we've talked about in a previous episode for you guys to listen to. One of the very first ones, we talk about limerence and how to fall out of love.

Morgan:

I think any other we'd term it is lovesickness, and that sort of thing. So, and that leads me to this other question. There's two basic trust issues. If they don't have one, then they have the other, and sometimes they have both, so you want to talk about what those are?

Brad:

Yeah. The two trust issues that people have when they've left their spouse and decided to marry or be with their affair partner, the first is ... and sometimes they have both, but if they didn't, if they don't have one they definitely got the other, and this is usually what brings them into marriage counseling. But the first is, you left your family, you left your children to be with me.

Morgan:

All of your friends who divided up.

Brad:

Yeah, your friends are divided up, you left ...

Morgan:

Sometimes your job, where you live-

Brad:

Your job, you left your family to be with me. It seems like your spouse is a nice person, it didn't seem like your marriage was that bad. How do I know you're not gonna do the same to me? You grew up with them. You created this life with them. They have this level of significance and attachment meaning to you. How do I know that ... I don't have any of that with you. I've only known you for a brief period, and our relationship has had to be secret the whole time. How do I know you're not gonna do that to me?

Brad:

I'm not as important to you, in attachment significance, as they are. Granted you feel like I'm your soul mate, but how do I know the tables aren't gonna turn on me once you stop feeling that way?

Morgan:

Or if I'm honest with you.

Brad:

Yeah, and Morgan, the other thing is, this really creates a lot of distress, too. Not a lot of people make a clean break, to leave their spouse and then go be with the affair partner. It's not like "Okay, you discovered the affair, now I'm leaving this weekend to go be with them." It's pretty messy, and so a lot of people go be with the affair partner, then come back home. They live this double life.

Brad:

Maybe the spouse doesn't know what's going on. The spouse rarely knows the full details. The affair partner often doesn't really know the full details. If they both talk, they're both gonna end up feeling betrayed, because they're gonna realize, hey, this person is lying to both of us. They're "betraying" both of us.

Brad:

People don't really ever make a clean getaway, clean break, and go with the affair partner, and so what happens is that's just gonna make it more difficult to have a healthy relationship.

Brad:

And then the other thing, Morgan, that makes these relationships hard, this is another issue that brings people in, usually one of them has cheated on the other. That's why they're coming to see me again.

Morgan:

Okay, so the first one is, how do I know that you're not going to do what you did to your spouse to me, and then the other is, they come in because of more betrayal, because they're kind of in a pattern and a habit of betraying and so they betray each other.

Brad:

Yeah, one of them has ended up betraying. That's kinda the grim reality of this is, there's kinda not just two but maybe three reasons to have ... you could add more, but maybe three basic that I see is, you betray them, you've now betrayed me with an affair, and then it took you forever to leave them to be with me. How do I know I'm really important to you? So you have to ask yourself, you gotta look at this realistically, because what people do is they look at the pleasure of this. "I found my soul mate, I feel so good. When I'm away from them, I feel so unhappy and I feel this despair, and I feel depressed when I'm not with them, but when I'm with them I feel great." People focus on that, but what they don't focus on is the faults of the affair partner, they're focused on the faults of their spouse to the hilt.

Morgan:

Right, of course.

Brad:

They see that, they feel the resentment towards their spouse, but the affair partner represents greener pastures, a new opportunity. If you're gonna be fair to yourself, something you need to do for yourself as you're listening to this, is you really need to look at this as objective as you really can, because usually what people do is they focus on the pleasure of being with that person but they don't focus on the pain that's really gonna be there.

Morgan:

Right, right. So then that's kinda the next questions, is the pain of staying and the pleasure of leaving, but they aren't realistic about the pain they'll experience in the new relationship. So what sort of pain would they experience if they leave for the affair partner?

Brad:

That's a good question, Morgan. There's a lot of pain there, and the pain of leaving to be with the affair partner is, rarely are they ever truly happy.

Morgan:

Right. There's always a level of mistrust.

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, granted, there's always some Hollywood couple that you could point to. Some exception. There's gonna be some exception to everything. There's gonna be somebody that lives to be 140 years old when everyone else is dying at 70.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

There's gonna be some exception somewhere, but are you that exception?

Morgan:

Right, and it's very rare.

Brad:

It's very unlikely that you're gonna be that exception, because what the research shows is that 80% of people that divorce during an affair, because of an affair, end up regretting it.

Morgan:

Right. And I think part of the reason for that is because they just don't know that person. They don't know their faults, they don't know what they look like in the morning for real, they don't know how they respond or react in different situations and scenarios because they've only seen one side of them.

Brad:

Yeah, well, and Morgan, here's something else. Is, there's a lot of people who, some of you who aren't, who've been betrayed, you might find this surprising, but there's a lot of people who have an affair and they actually fight a lot with the affair partner. It's not uncommon for people to really fight a lot with the affair partner. Talk about-

Morgan:

Pretty normal.

Brad:

Yeah, it's actually normal for them to do that, and that creates the mistrust, that creates reasons not to be with them. People don't really always think about that pain. I've had people who plan to leave, who left, and they're like "Yeah, we fight all the time." They're like "I'm not in limerence because we fight all the time," but they still feel like this is my soul mate, they really minimize the flaws, the negative characteristics that are there. They're not really looking at it objectively, and so that's something you have to ask yourself, is like, what kind of foundation are we creating here for ourselves? If this were a business deal and we were moving forward in business and this is how it started, would you even like this person down the road? Just add in the other normal family stuff.

Brad:

You have to ask yourself, are my kids gonna like this person? Because kids typically feel betrayed too, whenever a parent leaves. So a kid will say "Why are you leaving me and Mom, or leaving me and Dad, and my brothers and sisters to go be with them and raise their kids? Why are you gonna go sleep at their house and take care of them, and you're gonna leave me here?" Kids feel betrayed, and it's very hard to get over stuff like that.

Morgan:

Right. It's hard to build a healthy, happy relationship and marriage and family.

Brad:

In general.

Morgan:

Based on that.

Brad:

Yeah, in general, but when you don't have a good foundation it's a lot harder, and part of this foundation is, people who start out as an affair and then when they do marry, their marriages are twice as likely to divorce, and so it's really something to be mindful of and aware of.

Morgan:

And it's because of that negative cycle, it's because how can you have bonding events, how can you have kinda deep understanding of the person and open yourself up to that person if you just can't know for sure that they're gonna stay with you, and I can't imagine there's any amount of "Oh, don't worry. I'll stay with you, don't worry, I love you, don't worry." You can't really speak to that if the actions haven't followed, if the track record hasn't been solid, to say the least.

Brad:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Morgan.

Morgan:

So let's talk about, what are some things they need to look at, realistically, if they're considering leaving. What should they focus on, what are some things that they should ask themselves, maybe-

Brad:

Good question. Well, I think you have to ... like I said earlier, usually people are focused on the pain of staying with their spouse, and they're focused on the pleasure of being with the affair partner. You need to switch that if you're gonna give yourself a fair chance. You need to think about the pleasure of staying with your spouse and the pain of being with the affair partner.

Brad:

One of the things that you also need to ask yourself is, right now we're in the beginning of this relationship. We're maybe a year in, two years in, we're six months in, we're a month in. You need to ask yourself, and we're fighting right now, we're not getting along right now, we're already talking about can we trust each other. This is the honeymoon of your relationship, so you need to really be fair to yourself and ask this kind of question. You need to think long-term perspective on this.

Brad:

You need to also kinda ask yourself, where am I really watering the grass right now? Because the grass is greener where you water it, so where am I watering the grass right now? Am I watering it with the affair partner and ignoring my spouse? Am I not giving us a fair chance? Am I in limerence, because limerence ends whenever you are actually with that other person. Adversity is what creates limerence, and so if you don't remember when limerence is, limerence is a feeling of lovesickness, romantic love, obsessive love, where you really are just infatuated and head over heels for this other person because you feel wanted by them, where you find them attractive, and what people do is they feel like this is their soul mate. They're willing to give up anything for it.

Brad:

You have to really be fair to yourself, and you're fair to yourself by asking these hard questions.

Morgan:

What will my relationship with this person look like a year from now, two years from now?

Brad:

Yes. And our kids, if they have kids. What's that gonna be like with my kids? Are my kids gonna hate my guts, are they gonna resent me? Because, and again I'm in a unique position with this because of what I do, children also feel betrayed. They often don't know about what happened, because people typically are pretty good at keeping things away from the kids, but if they see mom and dad are divorcing, and kids are smart, they're gonna figure out two plus two equals four. Somebody else was involved in this. They overhear things, kids are bright. Even young kids are gonna figure stuff out.

Brad:

A year later, you're getting married to someone else, they're gonna start feeling betrayed as well, and it's gonna fracture your relationship with them.

Morgan:

Right, and then they're gonna hate, or they'll potentially hate the affair partner, who then will have a terrible relationship with your kids, and they're gonna make it hard for you, probably, to even see your kids, because they have such a terrible relationship with your kids. Your kids make their life miserable, and then what's gonna happen? It's either gonna put a rift between you and your kids, or it's gonna put a rift between you and your new partner, so consider that. You may not see your kids ever again, they may not want to come around you because of the affair partner.

Brad:

Yeah, and you may put every one of them in weekly counseling.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

You really have to think about this. You have to be fair to yourself, ask these hard questions. One of the questions you have to ask yourself is, we've been at this for a while. We've been talking about leaving our spouses and being with each other, and it's been six months and they haven't left yet. It's been a year, they haven't left. It's been three years, they haven't left. It's been three and a half years, four years, they haven't left.

Morgan:

Do they really love me?

Brad:

Do they, yeah. Are they really gonna leave to be with me? Am I really gonna leave to be with them?

Morgan:

Right. And if I did, what's that gonna look like?

Brad:

Yeah, and that goes back to, at the end of the day the spouse is always more important than the affair partner. People may feel ... they may not feel that way when they're in limerence with somebody, they may not feel like my spouse is more important, but at the end of the day, that's the case.

Morgan:

Wouldn't you want the person that you're with, wouldn't you want their full heart? Wouldn't you want all of them and not just a part of them? You know, when you love someone and you care for them, wouldn't you want their full attention? Wouldn't you want all of their love, realistically, you know, their romantic love, but you're not getting that, and you won't ever get that, which is hard for people to grasp.

Morgan:

I think sometimes they think "Oh, surely once they break it off I'll get their full attention, their full love," but will you? Will you get it? I don't know, because like you're saying, they haven't broke off their marriage yet, why not? Because it's hard, sure, but they love their spouse. There's history there.

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

There was a commitment there that was pure and was not defiled from the beginning, so you deserve it. You deserve a relationship where they chose you, they made a definitive choice to be with you from the start, and they sought you out and you did it legitimately because you owe yourself that. You don't want to be the other person, because it doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel like you're winning at life. It just feels terrible to be the other person, so I don't know. Just my thought.

Brad:

Yeah, those are good thoughts, Morgan. And so part of this is ... all of our decisions throughout life are really based on one thing. We're always moving away from pain and towards pleasure, so if we want to change our behavior, change our experience, we have to think more about the pain that we experience with certain behaviors, and the pleasure of not doing certain things. That's basically how we get out of this, and hopefully this has been worth your guys' time. This came up ... and usually all my podcasts are kinda things I'm dealing with throughout the week, or the last few weeks, so I just wanted to kinda talk about this.

Morgan:

So, just to kinda clarify a little piece of what you said too, we want to switch our thinking now. So all along, we've been thinking "oh, the pain of being with our spouse. Oh, the pleasure of being with this person who makes me feel good, maybe lifts my depression," but you need to make a conscious effort to switch that pain-pleasure dichotomy, I guess. So start associating the pain with the reality of leaving for that person. Will it hurt? Yes, it will hurt, and start really marinating on the pain of leaving for the affair partner and start considering the pleasure of healing this relationship with your spouse, so that is important to say.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, that's great. I just wanted to say one last thing.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

This is something that's another piece of research I came across since we recorded the limerence episode, and this is really important because when people experience limerence, they mistake that as this is a sign of who my soul mate's supposed to be.

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

You know, this is who God or the universe is telling me I need to be with. This is my soul mate, but what the research shows us is that when somebody begins a relationship with limerence, that infatuation, that lovesickness, that love addiction, that state we see them as perfect and just feel like when you're with them you feel great and when you're away you feel sad and despair ...

Morgan:

Depressed.

Brad:

Those relationships don't always end up in happy relationships, but when people marry somebody, that starts as a companionship-type relationship.

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

And so what happens is, you marry somebody as a companion, and you feel that companionship love, but then when you sometimes have an affair, what happens is you feel limerence.

Morgan:

For that other person.

Brad:

You feel stronger romantic feelings, then you begin to question your marriage, and so that's an additional piece of that limerence, and I wanted to mention before we go today.

Morgan:

Yeah, that's important. Yeah, so that's really really important. You just dropped a bomb in the middle of this ...

Brad:

And it's time to end. We gotta get going.

Morgan:

Dang it. So maybe we'll impact that a little bit more later. But thank you guys for listening, thank you for being with us today. It's always a pleasure. Thank you for making us the number one podcast for Fair Recovery on iTunes. We will talk to you next time.

Brad:

Thank you guys, bye bye.