Ep 9: 6 Ground Rules for Discussing Infidelity

Brad:

You're dealing with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson. This podcast is where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This podcast is for you. This episode, episode nine is where we talk about ground rules for talking about the affair. And just as a reminder, go to healing broken trust.com/episode nine to download your free resources. Again, that's healing broken trust.com/episode nine. That's the number nine. Download your free resources and walk through those resources as you listen to these episodes. You'll find it's very, very helpful. So let's get started. So Brad, what are we talking about today?

Brad:

Well, today we're going to talk about really the ground rules of how to talk about an affair. We've gotten a lot of emails at people asking basically that question. We're having trouble in this area, so we want to give you guys listening ground rules on how to talk about an affair to really make this the most productive time because how you talk about it really sets the stage of your affair recovery process. And so ground rule number one is just that how the affair is discussed, it's more important than really what you talk

Brad:

About.

Brad:

And this needs to be a process where the discussions are handled in a way where both spouses feel respected and Morgan, so many people talk about an affair and it becomes so in a way counterproductive because there's arguing and fighting about it and people don't really get the healing that they need or they don't heal the way they need to. So what we're talking about is the ground rules and really that main idea how we talk about this, it's so important because it's really even more important than what is said if it's done in a way with caring, compassion, honesty. Honesty is really important. If we have that, it's really going to help us in their fair recovery

Morgan:

Process a lot more successful. And how you talk about it, we'll also shape what is said. I mean if you are just haphazardly talking about it and you just talk forever and ever and ever, it's going to be a lot more difficult to control your emotions. And then in turn, you're going to say a lot of things that are hurtful.

Brad:

And so we're going to have some ground rules. So number one is just knowing this is an important piece of the process and what we say isn't really as important as how we talk about it.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Exactly. And the reason I say it needs to be done in a way that's respectful with compassion is for the injured spouse, we need the betrayer to become the healer for us. And if they feel like this isn't helpful, they're not going to be honest and they're not going to share. And this needs to be productive.

Morgan:

And so it's really important to set aside intentional time to talk about the affair. And that's really ground rule number two, setting aside that time is so important. In the beginning you'll find that you want to talk for hours, but as the process of healing moves forward, you may find that the longer you talk about it in any given period, your conversations begin to be less and less productive.

Brad:

You should schedule time to talk about this because this is one of those things in life, just like exercise or dieting, where if you're not intentional about it, you're probably not going to do it as the betrayer. You're just going to want to avoid it.

Morgan:

Well, you've said at certain points cut it off because it'll be much more productive that

Brad:

Way. And I'm going to get into that later more specifically. But the idea with this is sitting aside, time gives you a break from dealing with the affair and in the beginning of the process of a fair recovery, what you're doing, most people find themselves talking about it for hours as time goes on, especially in the first weeks in the beginning. But as time goes on, people find themselves, we need a break from this. We still got lives to live lead. We still have things that we got to do. We just want to enjoy each other's company and have fun. And so setting aside time where specifically discuss this.

Morgan:

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes those intrusive thoughts that happen with the betrayed spouse, it can be very, very difficult. They can get into this cycle of asking the same question, same question, and then feeling like they're not getting anywhere. So it's kind of difficult if you like something you've said, something I've heard you say is that after 30 minutes, those conversations become kind of unproductive. Is

Brad:

That correct? Yeah. Well, as you go on longer it can be unproductive.

And so the next idea or the next ground rule is that the spouse who had the affair really needs to have what's called a purge session or a vomit session. You really need to get it out. You need to get all the details out, you need to get everything out. And the sooner this comes out, the better. It's always better if the betrayer discloses information rather than an affair partner tells the spouse or they'd stumble upon it. It's always better if that person says, Hey, I had an affair. This is what happened. And gives you the details of it. What's not helpful though is when the spouse who has been betrayed has to be a detective and has to really look for answers. They feel like they're getting stuck. They have to be a detective. They have to look for answers. They have to kind of hunt, they have to snoop around. You're not doing well in the air recovery process if that's happening. And part of that is the injured spouse has such a need to know, and here's what you're doing by talking about this, is you're giving them knowledge that is really healing for them.

It really helps them. I know when I was betrayed in the past, before I married my wife, completely different person. But whenever I had a chance to talk to somebody about this, who knew the other person and that can shine some light on to help me understand this betrayal better, that was the only time I found relief. Many times that's what this is like for people is the only time they find relief is when this is actually being discussed and they feel like they're getting answers about this. And so

Morgan:

It's a lot easier to build trust that way too, if you're being outright honest and open and just very transparent. Yeah,

Brad:

You're exactly right, Morgan, when you're 100% honest, you're being 100% transparent. I have nothing to hide. Here's what I've been doing this

Morgan:

You I volunteering

Brad:

Information and you're willing to do this.

It's not like pulling teeth or you're forced to do this, but you're willing to do it. When you have that, it's a much smoother healing process. This isn't an easy process, but it's much smoother. And so the spouse that's been betrayed, they need to know that's when they find relief. But part of this though is people don't want to really share or they don't want to purge or vomit because they feel like they're actually doing more damage when they do that. But it's like cough medicine. Sure, cough medicine tastes horrible, but it actually makes you feel

Morgan:

Better. Absolutely. And you may notice that the betrayed spouse asks the same questions over and over and it may be a cue that you're not giving enough detail. It's very normal for the betrayed spouse to ask questions, the same questions over and over. But it may be that they're just trying to process it and they learn something new each time. They may hear something a little differently or they may actually, something may sink in the third time that they hear it. But it may also be that cue that you need to give a little more detail. Maybe you need to give a little more information, try not to hold back and try to just be very patient with that because it's going to be a process.

Brad:

And Morgan, before we go on onto the next one, I wanted to just throw this in there. Somebody this last week said, look, I already know the worst part of this. You cheated on me. Nothing else you're going to tell me is worse, as bad as that. And so it's just a lot of the people who have affairs who cheat because they don't want to make matters worse, they don't want to see their spouse hurting. They will basically suppress information and not want to say anything. And so what happens is they're not talking, they're not sharing

Morgan:

That kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Alright, and we're talking about key important steps. Actually we're on the fourth step. They need to volunteer information and the more you volunteer on your own and the less your spouse has to dig for it and dig for it, the better you are in the process of healing. So what would you say is the next one, Brad?

Brad:

Well, the fifth ground rule or one of the ground rules is if the injured spouse attacks the betrayer, the less likely the betrayer is going to be to participate, the less willing they are to participate. And so what happens is, is this gravely injures the couple's ability to recover and that defensive behavior that they have keeps 'em in a posture of self-protection instead of a healing posture, instead of a nurturing, healing, supportive role, they're feeling attacked and they're feeling defensive. They're focused on their own needs. Having an affair is obviously a very, very, very selfish act, very selfish behavior. But what people don't understand is that these people, when they're feeling defensive, they're not in a healing posture, they're still thinking of themselves,

Morgan:

Right? It's like that fight or flight mode where if they're being attacked, the only thing their body knows to do or their mind has to do is I've got to get away from this. I've got to get away from being

Brad:

Attacked. The spouse who had the affair, you have to be honest, you have to be transparent, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. But the spouse who's been betrayed, this doesn't necessarily automatically give you the right to become emotionally abusive or verbally abusive either.

Morgan:

And it's probably very hard not to be.

Brad:

Yeah, it's very hard not to be, and you feel like this is kind of your divine right. You cheated on me, I get to treat you however I want to. An attitude like that is only going to keep you stuck in the recovery process. And let me just say this in the beginning, it's very hard not to feel a sense of entitlement and not just in the beginning, it could be for several months, but having a sense of entitlement, you owe me that, especially when it comes to talking about this. Those are things that you have to work through. But if you have this, you betrayed me, now you have to walk the line, walk the line, walk on eggshells. That long term does not work out into very good marriage. That works short term when recovering from an affair because it helps, but it's not really the way to rebuild a marriage either.

Morgan:

And that also can be helpful when if you start to find yourself going into that process, into that negative cycle, that 30 minutes, keeping it short, will help you to not start becoming that critical, that angry person.

Brad:

Would you say it's the idea of open limitations? You can bring up a question really at any time as time goes on, and there's still the need to talk about this with open limitations. You're able to talk about it at any time, but no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. Really any question, and we're going to talk about in a minute, the types of questions you don't want to get into and ask. And it's really anything that makes you more obsessive, like sexual details or love letters or correspondence of that type. Just seeing I love you, that makes it worse. But what I'm trying to say is if you find yourself talking about this and it's not being productive, you feel like you're getting angry and heated, there is the need to talk about it. But how we talk about it's so important. So

Brad:

If

Brad:

You find yourself really in the first three minutes not getting anywhere talking about this, you're better off taking a break for at least 20 minutes because again, how you talk about it's so much more important than what you talk about. And the reason I say take a break for 20 minutes is our heart rate gets around a hundred beats per minute. We enter that fight or flight mode, and what happens is blood is leaving our brain, it's flowing to our feet, and we're no longer thinking objectively. We're no longer being really rational. And that's when you're more likely to have cases of domestic violence or people punching holes in the wall or just doing whatever, just doing really stupid stuff.

Morgan:

That physiological response,

Brad:

You have a physiological response. And so if you find yourself getting there, what you can do to make this time more productive is take a 20 minute break. You can turn off the lights in the house, turn down the temperature in the house, drink something cold, and doing those things, breathe deeply from your stomach. Yeah, definitely breathing deeply, taking deep breaths like that just in and out, doing at least six deep breaths a minute.

Morgan:

And that's with your

Brad:

Stomach or 10 deep breaths a minute breathing from your stomach area. And all this does is it helps you cool your body down, helps you lower your heart rate. So this becomes more productive. We're dealing with trauma and when we have trauma, heart rate rises quicker. Things are more likely just to kind of snap. Things are more likely to kind of get out of hand. And so if we follow these steps that I'm outlining, it's going to be much more productive. And as the injured spouse, that's going to help you heal much quicker because the betrayer isn't going to think, okay, they're crazy or Why talk about this? You're letting me know when I tell you new

Morgan:

Information.

Brad:

You're going to snap, you're going to snap. And I shouldn't tell you, and this is what you need to know as the betrayer is, the more they know about this, the better they're going to feel and they're actually getting better. Kind of as we said earlier, it's like cough medicine, it tastes horrible and you have to pinch your nose and tilt your head back and you don't want to really do it. But in the couples who do this or the couples who do the best, and that's why we're telling you to do this,

Morgan:

Right? It's like the healing medicine. You're just talking about it. It's

Brad:

Painful and there's not a better way. There's really not a better way. And so

Morgan:

It's worth it.

Brad:

So these are the ground rules. And so that's kind of where we're at.

Morgan:

Okay, so now we're going to talk about,

Brad:

We're talking about ground rule six.

Morgan:

That's right. Ground rule six, which is basically talk about the affair, talk about what's gone on with compassion and care. One major reason we want to keep the discussions to a shorter length of time. It's because it can become very difficult to keep the conversations productive and kind. This goes back to how it's talked about, but we need to keep our cool the best we can, especially as the betrayer when discussing such heed information or really both betrayed and the betrayer. This doesn't mean we don't have bad moments though

Brad:

That's

Morgan:

Expected.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right with the trauma aspect that we've talked about the last several weeks, there is going to be people snapping. And what I mean by snapping people getting upset easily, you have the exaggerated startle response. You're going to be,

Morgan:

Those nerves are

Brad:

Exposed. Yeah, your nerves, your anxiety, your heart rate increasing, people are going to be upset talking about this. That's not a reason not to talk about it either,

But it needs to be done in a way, the best possible way where people feel safe, people feel secure, that kind of thing. And so part of this, us talking about it with care and compassion is the injured spouse. What I tell people to do in my office is as you talk about this, really journal your anger on the paper journal, invent your feelings on the paper, and it's just as effective as really talking to somebody about it. You talk to somebody, they're going to be able to give you ideas and feedback. You're not going to get that when you journal or write down your feelings about this. But if you turn, like I've mentioned repeatedly throughout our broadcast today, if you turn and direct your anger towards your spouse in this, they're not going to really want to be there to help you no matter how much shame or guilt they feel, their guilt and shame is actually going to keep them from talking to you about it more because they're like, gosh, I've hurt them so bad and I see them getting angry and upset and

Morgan:

I already feel bad.

Brad:

I already feel bad about it. I don't want to make them feel worse. I'm only going to feel worse,

Morgan:

And I feel worse now because I'm making them feel bad.

Brad:

And so what you need to do is really journal about this. And what I mean by journal is just take out a pen, take out sheet of paper or journal book or a diary. Write in that your emotions, your feelings. Write letters to the affair partner. Write letters to your spouse.

Morgan:

Don't send them.

Brad:

Yeah, do not send these letters and take it outside and burn it. Get it all out. Get it all out of your system. Put it all on paper. You're only writing for yourself. It's nothing that your counselor needs to see. It's nothing that your spouse needs to see anybody else needs to see. You can write prayers to God, you can write whatever you want. But the thing is, the process of writing has the same effect on you psychologically as verbally telling somebody that. And so when you first start this though, there is a side effect. You're probably going to be sad for a couple hours and you're probably going to be angry after you do it for a couple hours, maybe even a couple of days. It just kind of depends, but it's just like cough medicine. It helps you deal with it. And like we talked about when we were talking about trauma, you have to deal with this.

Avoiding it is only going to keep you there. And so journaling about this, writing about it, putting it on paper, what that's helping you do is you're getting it out of your mind. You're getting it on paper, you're not thinking about it as much, but it also, it's going to help make these talks that you guys have much more productive because you're not channeling your anger and these negative emotions onto your spouse who's betrayed you. And they're going to feel like, okay, I can talk about this. We can talk about this more. I'm not saying that you should not tell your spouse, I'm really having a bad day. I really feel down. I'm not saying that you should feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your spouse, either one of you, but if we just kind of always unload on them and verbally bash them, and in some cases verbally abuse our spouse, they have no incentive because they feel like they're only doing more damage by talking about this with you.

But if you journal it on paper, put it on paper, it's going to help you find peace, it's going to help you find relief, it's going to help you find really just that peace of mind and it's going to help you have more care and compassion. It's going to make this a much smoother process. So you got to channel this stuff on the paper, and then what you can do is just take it outside and burn it and you can watch it go. It's just going to bring more closure and more peace. And that's something that you're going to have to do several times. It's not a one-time event, but it's going to be something that you do repeatedly throughout the process for the next several months moving forward. But it's going to bring you healing. And the more you do that, the people who do that the most, Morgan, are the ones who get the best care, who get the most out of counseling.

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. I can see that in my own experience. I've found that journaling is very, very helpful. And it's funny that you say that you'll be upset or angry for a few days and you don't even realize it sometimes that, gosh, yeah, I'm in a real poor mood and it makes sense. I just journaled out on this

Brad:

Book, all these feelings. It is bringing things up to the surface, but that's not a reason, in my opinion, that's not a strong enough reason to not do it

Morgan:

Right. It's a good thing because you're purging, you're getting it out.

Brad:

Well, you're getting it out, you're with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

Absolutely. And so basically, journal, journal, journal, the people who do that recover the best. It's going to keep you from getting riled up about this.

Morgan:

Absolutely. And the thing that Brad was talking about with limiting that time that you talk with each other about certain issues, especially if you find yourself going off into getting upset, but as you journal, you can write down the questions or comments, write them down, save them for that time, think them through a little bit because then when that limited time that you have that you've placed that limit, you've placed on your conversations, you're really going to have a more productive conversation. You're really going to have more of your questions answered probably in a more productive way because you've thought them through, you've really written them out and kind of considered, what do I really need to know? What do I really want to know? And then you're able to ask it in a way that's easy for them to answer and for you to follow up and ask further questions to get real answers. So that's a good thing to remember there too.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 11: Crisis Management, How to Keep It Together When Everything's Falling Apart After The Affair

Brad:

We can really only focus on one thing at a time. And if we let our thoughts run control of us, it's going to control our mood as well. We're going to be stuck in sadness, grief, and hurt. And it's going to be sure it'll always be there until it's completely dealt with. And I'm not saying don't deal with it. I'm just saying at times you got to get to work or times you got to take care of the kids. And these are ways to regain control of yourself.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you are wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. And we're on episode 11 where we're talking about ways to manage the crisis and specifically with this question of how do I keep my world from falling apart after the affair? So that's really important. And quickly, before we move on, I want to remind you to go to healing broken trust.com/episode 11. That's episode and the number 11 to really get the downloads, actually to get the free downloads that we have there for you and gain a better perspective on how to work through this process. All right, so that's Healing Broken trust.com/episode 11. Download those free resources and let's get started. Welcome back. You're listening to Brad and Morgan Robinson, and we are talking about how to recover from an affair. Today we're talking about ways to help you manage the crisis after your spouse's affair, and there's four things we're talking about today, intrusive thoughts, thoughts stopping journaling, and managing depression. Brad, do you want to get us started?

Brad:

Yeah. Many times after an affairs discovered, obviously it's very traumatic, it's very hurtful. Part of, and we've talked about before, this is very, because it is so traumatic, you have a difficult time with obsessive thoughts. And so how you handle those intrusive thoughts, those obsessive thoughts, I want to share a couple things with our listeners on how to do that. Pretty much in almost every case I've worked with on a fair recovery. The spouse or partner who's been betrayed has had obsessive intrusive thoughts. Most of them have also reported a hard time managing the flood of thoughts that came to them. There is a guy named Larry Smith. He's an author and leading the expert on post-traumatic stress disorder and other anxiety disorders. He's developed a few tools to help individuals deal with intrusive thoughts instead of having to turn to drugs or other harmful coping mechanisms to relieve that pain. And one of the things that he's developed is really grounding your body.

Brad:

And

Brad:

Let me explain this, grounding yourself and grounding your body. Grounding yourself means doing things that bring you back to the present. Instead of focusing on the past and letting your mind into the affair, you're focused on the here and now, you're learning and practicing. This will help you gain a sense of control over intrusive thoughts from the past. And it frees you from worrying about the affair happening again. And there are multiple ways to do this, and one of those is grounding your body with grounding your body. You're noticing what your body is doing without passing judgment on what your body feels like. So for example, if your breathing is shallow and rapid, or if your stomach is in knot, you focus on the breathing slowly and evenly, especially if you are hyperventilating.

Brad:

You

Brad:

Want to touch the fabric of your clothes or an object close to you and focus on what it feels like. Part of grounding your body is to stomp your feet or push them down, or you could rub your elbow or wiggle your toes. Tensing and releasing different muscle groups is another effective way to ground your body.

Brad:

And

Brad:

So you're getting more in touch with what's happening. You're not passing judgment on it, and you're paying attention to it,

Morgan:

And

Brad:

It actually helps you feel better,

Morgan:

Right? Because oftentimes you can drift, your mind can wander, and you can feel your body getting tense and tightening up. But if you say, oh, I'm going there again, and you start to come to the present moment and feel your body in the now, then you're starting to slow your breathing and you're starting to really relax, and it's going to take you away from the stress and those intrusive thoughts. Is that the idea?

Brad:

That's the idea. And that will help with the intrusive

Morgan:

Thoughts.

Brad:

Another way to help with the intrusive thoughts is, and I know what I just said, on grounding yourself, grounding your body. That sounds bizarre. Try it. Just try it and see and do it for a little bit and see what kind of results you get.

Morgan:

And if you feel awkward doing it on your own, maybe go to a yoga class or a breathing class and just practice relaxing. Maybe even get a CD with relaxing music

Brad:

On how to relax, and that'll be very helpful.

Morgan:

Very helpful.

Brad:

Another way to handle intrusive thoughts is what's called thought stopping.

And with this, what you do is you just tell yourself, stop it. I'm not going to think about this. Stop again. This will be probably difficult in the beginning, the immediate aftermath because you're still very much a crisis. But as time goes on and as you get better, you can start choosing what your thoughts are going to be with thought stopping. You want to basically tell yourself, stop it. Then select half predetermined thoughts that you're already going to choose. You can have scripture verses on a note card. You can have lines of poetry. You can have your goals written down. You can have affirmations written down. You want to have something predetermined that is going to make you feel better and that you can say to yourself, instead of having these wild thoughts control your mind, you can just say these things out loud to yourself. And it can be a prayer that's written down or a prayer book that you have, and you can just read it out loud and it'll help you start controlling your thoughts and regain mastery over 'em. And it's not controlling you.

Morgan:

Right. And it's helpful to say it out loud as well. Very helpful. Say, Nope, stop. I'm not going to, Nope. I'm not going to think of that. Stop now and think on the things you want.

Brad:

Yeah, because we can really only focus on one thing at a time, and if we let our thoughts run control of us, it's going to control our mood as well. We're going to be stuck in sadness, grief, and hurt. And it's going to be sure it'll always be there until it's completely dealt with. And I'm not saying don't deal with it. I'm just saying at times, you got to go to work or times you got to take care of the kids. And these are ways to regain control of yourself.

Morgan:

Yes.

Brad:

And so thought stomping is very helpful. Handling those intrusive thoughts with the grounding yourself and grounding your body, that's also helpful.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And another helpful way, Morgan, do you want to share that with us? Sure.

Morgan:

Yes.

Brad:

This is

Morgan:

Journaling. Journaling. Journaling is very helpful. I personally enjoy journaling, but there's a social psychologist, Dr. James Pennebaker's, and he did research that identified two traits of individuals who cope well along the journey to recovery, an outlet for their feelings and a mindset about the trauma that fosters closure and clarity. So he talks about that, and he believes journaling can help with that. Dr. Pennebaker found that those who confided their emotional wounds in writing experienced dips in their mood as they were writing, but ultimately felt significantly happier and less anxious than the students who did not spend time journaling.

Brad:

And he did a study with one of his classes and he had his students do that.

Morgan:

Oh, true. Yes, yes. So journaling reportedly gave the students and the people that he worked with increased clarity about their trauma and brought them to a place where they could think about it more easily. And the exercise also improved function and participant's immune systems, which is amazing. Dr. Pennebaker concluded that confiding helps individuals confront, understand, and mentally organize the trauma, lessening its damaging effects. So that's pretty amazing. And I think if you're putting those feelings and thoughts onto paper, it's almost taking it off your shoulders. And I could imagine that would help your immune system.

Brad:

It really does. It's

Morgan:

Amazing.

Brad:

And Morgan, there's some different ways that journaling can become more effective. When you do begin to journal,

Brad:

You

Brad:

Really want to remove distractions. It's important to locate a fairly secluded space where your focus won't be impeded by people noises or other distracting stimuli.

Morgan:

And you want to be consistent. Consistent is consistency is very important. And I remember Dr. Pennebaker recommends journaling for 15 to 30 minutes on four to five consecutive days.

Brad:

And that's really important. And just being consistent with it because it'll help you. Sure, you might feel a little worse when you're riding, but when you're going to feel better because you're dealing with it, you're not putting the pain away, you're not putting the trauma away,

Morgan:

You're stuffing, you're not stuffing it. Yeah,

Brad:

You're not stuffing it. Sometimes moving past this is like hugging a cactus. I tell people, you go out and lost in the desert and you've got a terrible sunburn on you and you're dehydrated and you meet a person that lives in the desert, and this person is not wearing very much clothes. They look like they, they're also skin burned, but it's not destroying them. It's not peeling, it's not painful. And they told you how they got better. They said, see that cactus over there? I went over there and hugged it. I helped my skin, it healed my skin, and I no longer felt dehydrated, and I can survive in this desert. And in a way, that's what this is like. We're hugging a cactus when we're journaling, when we're dealing with the affair, when we're talking about it with our spouse is it feels horrible when we're doing it. And you got to squeeze that cactus tight. You got to wrap your arms around it, and you got to bear hug it, and it's penetrates your skin and it's already sunburned and you're dehydrated. But when you're doing that, it has healing energy and has healing properties to it.

And that's what we're doing. And lo and behold, you get better. You start feeling better. And that's what fair recovery is in a lot of ways. You're hugging a cactus,

Morgan:

And I really like the next thing. Inspiration, beginning with the traumatic event can spur the flow of writing as long as it's not a topic that's so upsetting that it becomes a distraction. Sometimes you can use a journal that has topics to write on. I'm sure there are a lot of helpful journals out there.

Brad:

And Morgan, that brings up the idea of being honest. This is your journal. It's a wonderful outlet to address topics you often think about but are too uncomfortable to admit to yourself or too embarrassed to discuss out loud writing can sometimes help you make sense of your feelings and therefore deal with your trauma in a way that conversation or internalizing simply cannot do.

And you're writing for yourself. And so it's important that this is also very private. It's important to write with no one's thoughts, opinions, or approval in mind, but your own in order to ensure total honesty. And some of this, because there is heightened emotion there when you're writing about something as difficult and painful as an affair is, even though you may feel strong emotion for a short period after journaling, most people do report having felt a sense of relief and peace as the long-term effects of journaling. Most people report feeling sense of peace as the long-term effect of journaling.

Morgan:

Right? And so having a clean slate, this is a valuable opportunity to cleanse your mind of worries. And many have experienced relief from insomnia by journaling before they go to sleep, which is really nice. Kind of gets all those crowded thoughts off your head, off your plate. However, journaling can sometimes trigger painful thoughts like you're talking about, and reminders. So it's important to use discretion and feel free to stop journaling at any time if it becomes too difficult. Just

Brad:

That's important.

Morgan:

Keep in touch with yourself.

Brad:

Yeah, that's important. You don't want to squeeze that cactus too strong, but it's still going to help you capitalizing. It's important to supplement journaling with therapy. It does not replace the value, the valuable help of a trained professional counselor.

Morgan:

Right? That's important.

Brad:

Yeah. It's not a supplement supplements. It's not a replacement. And another thing you need to do with this is take action. If journaling has helped you identify an unhealthy influence or pattern in your life, take steps to confront this issue in a healthy, productive way to incite positive change in your life.

Morgan:

And that's one thing that a counselor can do as well, help you to take those steps and to iron out what to do next. And another is finding closure. Journaling is an excellent way to close a chapter of the past and move forward with peace and clarity. Dr. Pennebaker says that as a rule, if a person can express their feelings about the past and see the events in a different light, he or she will mentally rehearse it less often, so it'll be less intrusive.

Brad:

And that's important, Morgan. It does help you find closure. I want to share a story real quick with a couple I've worked with. This is a situation where the wife was betrayed and the husband wanted to leave and she began to journal. And I'm really proud of her because I've seen a lot of people lose her Cool in that type of situation. And she said what helped her not lose her cool was she began to journal. She began to write. Instead of venting to other people and doing all that and trying to get ahold of him, she began to journal. And that really helped her just get this out of her system. So this journaling, it's very valuable.

Morgan:

And something that we've mentioned in the past that some people find very helpful is they might write it down on paper and take it out in the backyard and burn it or dig it in the fireplace and have a, let's get rid of this, these feelings, bonfire

Brad:

And Morgan, that's important. I'm glad you're bringing that up because people when they do journal and you really want to destroy it after you write it and you can destroy it by burning it, tying it to a balloon and watching it float away, that's a

Morgan:

Good one.

Brad:

And there's a psychological effect where it's getting lifted off your shoulders, you're beginning to feel better. And with journaling, you can also write prayers out to God. You can also write that person who's betrayed you a letter. You can write the affair, partner a letter, but don't send those types of letters. I had somebody that one time journaled and she said, those letters you're supposed to write, but not send 'em to anybody while I did.

Morgan:

Oh gosh.

Brad:

And all this, it was really bad because they had, shortly after that, there was a family wedding and this was a family member, and it really kind caused a big stink and a big fuss. You're going to say some things that you need to be very honest about. These are not the type of things that you need to give to somebody or let somebody else see. So after you write it, I think it's best to destroy it. I've also journaled, and I've used this just sometimes with daily stress, and I left it on the kitchen table every time I walked by it in the kitchen table for a week. I was just annoyed. I just saw it and it triggered where I got really annoyed. So if you do this and you really should, you need to destroy it or put it in a place that nobody can find it, and good ways to destroy, it's to burn it, cut it up, flush it down the toilet, or tie it to a balloon and watch it float away. And there's a psychological effect where you're seeing it go and you feel released, and it does help you feel better.

And maybe those feelings will come back, maybe be less intense, keep journaling again. It's going to help you with that. And so that's really important. You need to at least try journaling a few times before you just roll it out completely.

Morgan:

Good points.

Brad:

Morgan, the other topic I want to discuss today, and this is very helpful, is depression. After someone's betrayed, there can be a lot of depression, obviously, and for most people there is significant amounts of depression and also depression can lead to somebody having an affair. Sometimes the betrayer was depressed,

Maybe not major depression, but at least a mild depression. We've seen that quite a lot. Yeah, we have. And here's how depression can play out in your relationship. The depressed partner will typically withdraw out of the relationship because they're depressed. The other person, the non-depressed partner, will feel frustrated and powerless to make a difference. And they will respond usually with frustration and criticism, which makes the depression worse. And depression can feed the negative cycle in that relationship. So if you're depressed, the more critical you become or the more you'll withdraw. And many depressed people want to change their surroundings, and that sometimes means leaving the marriage. And depression is common right before an affair. It's a precursor to an affair. And so people who are depressed tend to be critical and irritable or they're withdrawn and they shut down. And how if you're married to someone who has depression, the most common way that that spouse is described is they're lazy. That's the best description that's given of them.

Morgan:

And sometimes we've heard where people, they sometimes seek an antidote to their depression because their mood is so low and the chemicals are so low. Sometimes an affair can pull them out of that depression for a temporary time.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Limerence depressed, you meet somebody, it feels good because

Morgan:

Those chemicals

Brad:

That

Morgan:

Are released in the brain, it kind

Brad:

Of exactly

Morgan:

Takes away the depression for a time. So they become somewhat addicted to it sometimes.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. There's also, now, if you're depressed or if your spouse is depressed, you need to know that being critical and judgmental makes it harder for your spouse or partner to recover. And 50 to 70% of all mothers suffer from postpartum depression. Wow, that's a high number there. Yeah. That's really high depression. It disrupts sleep and sexual desire. And many times conflict is simply caused because one of the spouses is depressed, they're critical, they're irritable or they're withdrawn. And so also there are, when someone is depressed, they have a hard time expressing their needs. They have a hard time accepting anything

Morgan:

From

Brad:

Their partner, and that's really important.

Morgan:

That is right. And so kind of the symptoms of depression, a few of them are difficulty concentrating, remembering details and making decisions. Persistent sadness, anxiety or feelings of emptiness, persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps or digestive problems that just don't ease with treatment. Fatigue and decreased energy, feelings of guilt, worthlessness or helplessness, feelings of hopelessness and or pessimism. Sometimes people say they have insomnia or early morning wakefulness or issues with excessive sleeping. There's irritability and restlessness like you had talked about, loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex overeating and appetite loss. And of course, we're not diagnosing anyone. These are just some symptoms that people who are depressed, they do experience.

Brad:

And if you're depressed, obviously getting help for that is really important. And it's important to remember that depression is common. If you have it, you're not weak, you're human, and it's treatable.

Morgan:

There's different types of depression, so there are some that need medication and some that Some are just situational, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And exactly. And part of this is getting help. Depression is common, is treatable. Here's some things that you can do that may be helpful. One of those is professional help. If you're depressed and it's causing you to have an affair, you may need professional help. If you're also depressed after your partner's affair and that depression isn't lifting, you may need professional

Brad:

Help.

Brad:

And so here's some things that you can do. One of those is just taking a warm bath. Warm water helps with depression.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

That's important.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Physical activity. You need to get moving. You need to go to the gym, even going with your spouse or a friend going, walking. But physical activity will help with depression, and that's huge.

Morgan:

We talked about journaling as well,

Brad:

Right? Yeah. Journaling will help with depression and finding ways of connecting with your spouse. If you can do that around physical activity, that's great. If your spouse is too depressed and they don't want to walk with you, give them the room to have that ability to say, no, I don't want to walk right now.

Morgan:

And don't believe that always. It's personal. Depression is not really personal typically.

Brad:

And that's what people typically, they feel like, gosh, why are you upset? Why are you this way? I can't shake you out of this many times. What

Morgan:

Did I do wrong?

Brad:

Yeah, what did I do wrong? Cause you always blah, blah, blah. You always acted this way. And the non-depressed spouse will feel like it's personal when really it's not. They're really stuck in a very depressive state. And so what's really neat is how getting a pet can help people who are depressed feel better. Many times people who are depressed connect better with animals and with people. So getting a pet is helpful.

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah. Accepting appreciation and giving appreciation back to your spouse. This can be hard. You need to practice small things. Often express appreciation after appreciation at least one time a day or the first week. So expressing appreciation.

Brad:

Appreciation is important.

Morgan:

It's very helpful

Brad:

Because if you're depressed, you're typically critical of yourself and you have negative thoughts. And so hearing somebody else appreciate you, it's really important. Another thing is just check in with each other. Ask how each other's days are going. Discuss how events are going. Listen, don't judge. Don't try to give advice and fix. Just listen. And also, Morgan, I like what you said about appreciating, but another thing is encourage your spouse to have dreams and to follow them. Encourage them to have goals. And because depressed spouses typically don't feel like they're entitled to have any dreams, depressed, people often don't feel like they can voice their dreams because they don't feel like they deserve to have any dreams.

Morgan:

Gosh.

Brad:

And so encourage your spouse to follow their dreams and to have 'em and have fun together. You need to go out and have fun together. You're trying to go on it and have a good time. Don't be cranky and mean. Don't run the mood.

Morgan:

Try not to at

Brad:

Least. But yeah, go out and have fun together. That's really important.

Morgan:

Get around friends and family are supportive and connect with them. Getting around anyone will help you. You can't be isolated. It just adds to the depression.

Brad:

And Morgan, that's really good advice because most of the time depression follows a feeling of loss and isolation. So if you can get around people that'll help.

Morgan:

And it's a deep introspection that is negative.

Brad:

Exactly.

Morgan:

So set priorities and simplify tasks to reduce the stress, make it simple and just make time for activities you enjoy. Get about eight hours of sleep a night, so enough sleep can help, but don't get too much sleep. Try to get out of bed, eat more healthy foods and take vitamin D. That can be very helpful.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, you're right about that. With getting eight hours of sleep a night, this is really interesting. The lack of sleep is the basis of all mood disorders.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And they did some studies on this. If you go 30 days without eight hours every night, if you go 30 days without eight hours of sleep every night, that could trigger major depression. And they've done studies on this where if you don't have any stimulants like energy drinks or caffeine and you got six hours of sleep for 30 days, most people would be very depressed. But of course in our culture, we're taking caffeine and stimulants and coffee and different things like that, energy drinks. So we're not seeing, we may not have that quite that impact, but if you didn't have any of that, you would be. And so it's really important just to take that, to get enough sleep. 60 minutes did a special some years ago, or they did a topic on lack of sleep, a show on lack of sleep. And what they discovered was, what they reported was if you go six days without eight hours of sleep, if you get six hours of sleep or seven hours, you're in a pre-diabetic state. That's right. If you only go a week, and they did lab rats where if they didn't get sleep for a week, it killed them.

Morgan:

So

Brad:

Sleep is really important to our health. We don't know a whole lot about it, but we do know that the basis of mood disorders is really a lack of sleep. And so getting enough sleep is really important.

Morgan:

So don't medicate yourself with caffeine. That's a big problem.

Brad:

And getting enough sleep and really eating, like you mentioned, healthy foods, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, taking vitamin E, like you said,

Morgan:

They talk about St. John's wart as well for depression. That's very helpful.

Brad:

Fish oil, St. John's Wart, those are some things. If medication isn't something you want to do, those are natural alternatives. And again, set goals for yourself. Someone once said, happiness is the pursuit of a goal moving forward, having something that you're working towards, it creates those positive endorphins. You're feeling happy working towards a goal, and again, get professional help

Morgan:

And having a secure base with one that you love, your spouse really helps. If you guys can work together, you can really defeat depression. There's a lot that you can do.

Brad:

And Morgan, let me say this, we're out of time, but let me say this. One of the most important things that you can do with depression is to get treatment. Part of what we're talking about is overcoming trauma. I heard this from someone, I can't give our listeners who said this, but they were talking about how effective treating trauma is. They said it's 10 times more effective if you go to individual therapy than if you just take medication for it.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And so get individual help. If you have it, it's not going to go away on its own. You're not weak. Everybody has dealt with it at some point in their life. It's understandable that you're going to have depression after an affair, get help for it.

Morgan:

And couples counseling is also very helpful for relieving depression,

Brad:

Of course. And in fact, that's one of the best ways to relieve depression

Morgan:

Because how much better would it be to have your spouse there hearing where you're coming from, hearing what's happening for you, so that when you leave the counselor's office, you have someone there to work it out with you to be there as a support system. It's huge. In some ways, it can be just as helpful, if not more helpful than individual counseling because you do have a partner there to work through with you.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing Broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice. I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 14: Romantic Love After Infidelity: Is It Possible To Have Romance Again? How Should We Handle Romance After They Cheated? Ways To Get The Romance Back.

Brad:

There's literally hundreds of things, thousands of things that you can do. It's just changing up the routine, doing new and different things. Obviously having children, they're great blessing, but don't let children and not having a babysitter keep you from doing new and exciting things and spicing up the romance that you guys have.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you, and we're officially on episode number 14 where we're talking about how do we rekindle romantic love after infidelity, and that's a very important question. So before I move on, I want to remind you that you can go to healing broken trust.com/episode 14, that's the number 14, and download your free resources to go along with this episode. It's going to really help you in expediting your change, so go to healing Broken trust.com/episode 14. And now let's go to our radio show recording of how to rekindle romantic love.

Brad:

Morgan, I want to move on to how to rekindle romantic love when it's lost. This is kind of related to a listener question that we had, so that's why I wanted to get into this.

Morgan:

Do you want me to read the question?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

So a person wrote in and they said, I've been listening to you talk about falling out of love. I've been married to my spouse for 20 years. I would like to know how to fall back into love with my spouse.

Brad:

Okay, that's a great question. Part of this listener is really, it's doing these things that we talked about last week on the show on how to fall out of love and thank you for contacting us, but there's also, even if you're married and you're not an affair on how to develop romantic love, well, this comes from Helen Fisher, her book, why We Love came out in 2004, and she's an anthropologist who has studied the brain and she has discovered that, and it's really simple. She has discovered that when we do new, exciting and different activities with our spouse, those exciting experiences enhances feelings of attraction, and so this is very important when we do new, exciting different experiences together. New and different is the key here.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

It enhances feelings of attraction, so when you do something with your spouse, that gives you a feeling of danger, it stimulates adrenaline, as Helen Fisher pointed out, makes us feel closer and more romantic with our spouse. So doing new, exciting and different activities elevates the level of dopamine in the brain. Dopamine is the chemical associated with romantic love, and research has pointed out that couples who do exciting general pumping activities as compared to less stimulating who do more normal activities

Morgan:

Get stuck

Brad:

In ways. Yeah, the routine, so people who do more adrenaline, exciting activities, they have increased feelings and more intense feelings of romantic love than those who just get stuck in their routines

Morgan:

And happiness. General happiness.

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you point that out. They have more just a general happiness, and so this can work even if you're the only one trying to work on the marriage. I had a lady come in occasionally. We see individuals who come in and we're happy with anybody who wants to work on the marriage. She was the only one that was able to, she took her husband to an exciting event and he had an affair and he was ready to leave. This helped them just spark that romantic love again and helped him to make up his mind that he wanted to stay. It doesn't have to be things that are expensive. It could be just trying a different restaurant, different part of town. It doesn't have to be things expensive,

Morgan:

Going to a new duck pond, which is something we like to do.

Brad:

Yeah, we like to go to duck ponds and feed the ducks bread in town. It's just simple. If you go to a gas station and get bread, it's four bucks. You learn that just so you know, just you know, if you go get a grocery store, it's cheaper, but it doesn't have to be expensive. When you're doing these new, exciting, different activities, it elevates the level of dopamine in your brain. Dopamine is the chemical associated with romantic love, and research is pointed out that couples who do that are happier, so this can work if you're the only one trying to work on the relationship, invite your spouse to join you in something risky and exciting. Maybe travel overnight or travel out of the country. Go bungee jumping, river rafting. Even trying a new restaurant doesn't have to be these big crazy things. Doesn't have, it doesn't have to be that at all. It could be just, let's try instead of watching tv, let's get out the board game. Doing something at the last minute, like going to a sports game or going to the movies at the last minute or swimming after the sun goes down.

Morgan:

Oh, that's fun.

Brad:

It's important to understand that anything rousing and unusual has the potential to trigger romantic love. Anything that gives you a feeling of new different that works. Anything that releases adrenaline that's exciting,

Brad:

Maybe

Brad:

A little bit dangerous, that also releases that, and that's also Morgan. Why when people are first in love, when people first meet, there's so much in love because everything's new and different and they go on dates. It's new experiences, new things that are different, and that's why also people usually when they're on vacation, they report that's probably their best times together.

Morgan:

It takes me back to our first date. It really does. Thinking about

Brad:

That,

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

I remember that. It was supposed to last an hour and a half and it lasted 10 hours.

Morgan:

We

Brad:

Had a lot of fun.

Morgan:

We had a lot of random funness, so that was great,

Brad:

And so here's some other ideas. These are just ideas, just a handful. If you see something on the side of the road that's interesting, just pull off and go explore. You don't have anywhere to be, just go look at it. Going to the gun range together. Oh, that's fun. That's different and exciting.

Morgan:

Love to do that.

Brad:

Just dangerous. Swimming in the backyard at night. We talked about that, taking a last minute trip somewhere, and instead of going to a normal movie and a dinner, maybe just watching a movie in the backyard. Create your own little projector. Yeah,

Morgan:

Put a sheet

Brad:

Up. Put a sheet up. Yeah. There's literally hundreds of things, thousands of things that you can do. It's just changing up the routine, doing new and different things. Obviously having children, they're great blessing, but don't let children and not having a babysitter keep you from doing new and exciting things and spicing up the romance that you guys have.

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

Part of this is if your spouse is falling out of love with you, let me say this, you don't necessarily have to intentionally be to fall back in love with you. What I mean is if you want them to fall in love with you, do not try to be overtly romantic.

Don't go have a candlelight dinner to music plane and try to create romance that way. Create romantic feeling, that romantic love feeling by just doing new and exciting things that it's a little bit more, it's not as in your face, it's not as obvious that you're trying to do that, but it's funner as well. So if you try to do something, you have these. It's more, I worked with a couple where the husband had fallen out of love and the wife was trying to recreate romantic love, and what this does is if you focus on, he was no longer in love with her.

Brad:

He

Brad:

Didn't want to be married to her. She was trying to get him to love her back, and so she wanted to take him to romantic dinner, and all that does is if you take somebody to romantic dinner that doesn't love you and that's wanting to leave you and you take 'em to romantic dinner, all they're thinking about is how much they don't love you anymore

Morgan:

During this

Brad:

Romantic. Yeah, it drives 'em nuts because they're thinking, I don't love this person.

Morgan:

Why are we at this romantic

Brad:

Dinner? Why are we here? I don't feel this way, and it actually pushes 'em further away. But if you do something new, different, unusual, it will help them recreate that romantic love, reconnect and reconnect. But if you try to do it more obvious like that, all they're thinking is, I don't feel this way towards you, and it actually pushes 'em further away. You take 'em somewhere that's different, new and exciting. Focus on that. Don't focus on trying to be romantic. If you focus on what's new, exciting and different, you're going to create romantic love as a

Morgan:

Byproduct.

Brad:

As a byproduct, but if you focus on getting romantic love and getting your spouse to love you back only by doing what are conventional romantic things, they're not going to love you back. In fact, and you tell 'em, you love me, do you love me back? You tell 'em things like that, you're just pushing 'em away

Morgan:

And they're going to say no.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

And that's going to work. That's going to feel worse.

Brad:

But what you're doing is you're doing kind of normal activities, normal everyday activities, so to speak, and then they're going to discover that they love you on their own and that's the best way and that's the best way. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 15: Am I crazy? What’s wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? What to do in the first 90 days

Brad:

And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you are wanting to save your relationship after infidelity, this is the podcast for you. And we're officially on podcast number 15 where we're talking about trauma. And specifically with this question of am I experiencing trauma? What does it look like? I'll tell you what, it'll be a really good idea to go back to episode one and revisit the seven stages of a fair recovery process that we talk about in episode one to really prepare you for this episode. But one thing you can do and that I recommend doing is also going to healing broken trust.com/episode 15. That's the number 15 to download your free resources. They're really going to help you through this process, really help you to understand where you are. Are you experiencing trauma? What does it look like? How does it play out in real life and every day situations? And so again, that's healing Broken trust.com/episode 15. Download those resources and let's get started.

And we've been talking about the stages of recovery, so do you want to remind the listeners about the stages of a fair

Brad:

Recovery? Yeah, just a quick recap. The stages of a fair recovery, there's the moment of discovery. In that moment of discovery, there's ambiguity, uncertainty. If we want to continue on, there's trauma. That's what we're going to talk about today, meaning trying to understand why this happened, what's going on, and then ultimately forgiveness. And simultaneously what's going on is there needs to be care, caring behavior, compassion that is expressed between both spouses, the betrayer and the injured spouse.

Morgan:

Yeah, and the whole process, it's not linear, correct?

Brad:

No,

Morgan:

It's kind of circular. Sometimes you'll come in the discovery, you'll start right at the discovery process and you might move through it quicker or move to bounce around to the

Brad:

Different, yeah, you kind of move around. So it's not a linear process, but it is a process that people can work through. And the most important ingredient is really carrying and compassion. It needs to be there for both people to be able to recover from this. We had an email. Do you want to go ahead and jump into that?

Morgan:

Sure. Let's talk about the email. We have a question from a listener, and here it is. I learned about my wife's affair with her coworker two months ago. She has since stopped seeing this person and is trying to help me heal, but I still can't seem to stop thinking about her with him. I feel obsessed with knowing what happened. My wife is becoming tired of answering the same questions over and over, and I feel worried that she will leave me just because my obsession with knowing what's happened. I feel like I'm going crazy. Why do I feel this way?

Brad:

Well, I'm glad that person emailed because that's what we're talking about today, that question. Am I crazy? What's wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? That is a very, very important question. And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. And I'm not diagnosing anybody with anything. I'm just saying this is generally what happens. Very large number of people are experiencing obsessive thoughts, rage, nightmares, anxiety, the inability to sleep, all these different things that they're experiencing, and it makes 'em feel nuts. They can't quit thinking about it no matter how hard they try to move on. Can't. Nobody's crazy when they're experiencing these things after a betrayal. Very normal. And both people need to understand this. The betrayer needs to understand this. One of the things that happens in a fair recovery is the spouse who's been betrayed is very obsessed about this, and so they want to talk about it. Talking about it for them helps 'em find relief, helps 'em understand it. It helps them begin to piece the puzzle together and they actually find relief.

And the betrayer feels like, gosh, talking about this is I'm only hurting you more. Why do you want to know about all this, yada, yada, yada? I'm only hurting you. But for the injured spouse, it's actually the only relief they find from it are some of the only relief. One of the things that's real important about this that people need to understand is people who've been betrayed are not crazy. You're not crazy. It's very normal. When I experienced betrayal, I experienced a lot of the same things that we're going to talk about today. In a sense, it's very predictable. Even for a lot of people, an affair is the most devastating experience that they'll have. I had a guy that was in Iraq say he would rather be shot at again in Iraq than to experience his wife cheating on him again. Wow, that's

Morgan:

Strong.

Brad:

But here's the catch with this. And I've had somebody else say, I would rather I've had a woman say that her husband's affair was worse than losing a child. And those are very strong statements that are made and not everybody feels those ways would say the same thing those people said, but this pain ranks up there with the death of a spouse, parent, a child. Some people have even said it's worse. And some of you that are listening to this who've experienced this, know what I'm talking about. The betrayer doesn't understand this. They just want it to be over quickly and it's not over quickly, and there's a lot of work that needs to be done. People can heal from it though I'm not saying you can't, but it just takes time. The first 90 days is the longest period of time, but people can't heal from it.

Morgan:

Yeah, the first 90 days is the most difficult, where the pain is raw and it's just so fresh and so many questions need to be answered. Yeah,

Brad:

It's really the crisis period. And that's usually when the symptoms of PTSD are at their highest.

Morgan:

So we were talking about trauma. How long does it take to recover from trauma?

Brad:

Well, it's dependent upon different factors, but the average couple, if everything goes right, it's about two years. There are some things that hinder people from recovering the way they need. And I just kind of want to go over this real quick.

Morgan:

Let me ask you real quick, by saying two years to recover, do you mean they need to be in counseling for two years or does that mean

Brad:

No, usually to be honest, and this is what couples need to understand is usually couples do really, really well in marriage counseling. It's actually quite rare for couples who come in because of an affair not to do well, usually if they're there, they both want it to work, they want to work through it, they just don't know how. It's extremely confusing. It is a nightmare. It's a rollercoaster. They don't know how they think they're crazy. The person who had the affair, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with me? Why did I do this? So it's kind of a myth that you're doomed. So most people actually do better than other couples that come into marriage counseling, believe it or not. But the trauma aspect of this is what takes a while to heal because it's that fundamental trust, that foundation of the relationship and it's been damaged. And so some of the things that can hinder that make this a longer process, I'll go over this real quick. There are a few primary ideas. The first is they live in a fantasy. They feel the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. The fantasy they had with the affair partner was one that didn't have the baggage of a long-term committed relationship.

Morgan:

That's something you typically term as limerence, correct?

Brad:

Yeah. I'd call that limerence. And limerence is basically a feeling of romantic love. The best way to describe it is you're really addicted to somebody else. You're obsessed with that person. It's really commonly called the first stage of falling in love that people have when they're dating. All you can do is think about them. And so that's when people have an affair. That's sometimes what's happened, and this is where people actually leave their spouse to be with the affair partner. They're experiencing limerence that's really matured and fully grown.

Morgan:

And you typically say that when they leave their spouse for that person, that's when the fantasy kind of bubble is burst

Brad:

Typically? Yeah, yeah. Usually people who leave their spouse to be with that other person, they have the highest divorce rates when they marry their affair partner because the fantasy's over.

So the first thing is the person still feels the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. They don't have the baggage because it's so new. It's so fresh. They're not experiencing the day-to-day responsibilities or the day-to-day realities of a long-term relationship. There's no baggage. The betrayer is free to focus solely on the relationship with the affair partner. A common example of this, it's not just limited to people like this, but you see this especially with people who have young children, especially dads at home. If you got a dad, the mom is staying at home, taking care of the kids. Dad may feel ignored when he's at home. There's noise, there's crying. It feels like he doesn't have any time to himself, but when he is with his affair partner, he feels like he can be himself and not have any of the responsibilities of raising a family. His affair will be an escape from reality, a fantasy he can be engaged in,

Morgan:

Engaged with that person, or maybe it lacked engagement with their spouse.

Brad:

And so when he's with his wife, there's financial struggles. Maybe he feels left out because children are getting more attention and with his affair partner, he feels like he did when he was a younger man free from the responsibilities of raising a family and basically he's living in a fantasy world. This is totally fantasy.

Morgan:

So we're talking about what hinders the trauma recovery process, and you've talked about limerence. What else

Brad:

Hinders that? One of the things that's important to know with this is something that for most couples, I would say nine out of 10 who are dealing with an affair, maybe eight out of 10. It's a very predictable process. This is what you got to do. I wouldn't say it's necessarily paint by the numbers, but you can really see great success. And so it's really just lack of knowledge. If you don't know what you're doing, if you listen to the girls at the getting your at the salon or the guys at the gym or whoever, it's really going to hurt you bad. Even in really listening to people who, and not even people like that, but just people who don't even know what they're talking about

Morgan:

And aren't pro your relationship.

Brad:

You need people who are your marriage who want you guys to make it, want your relationship to make it. You need that kind of help. But one of the things, and this is so important, I want to really highlight this. The greatest predictor in overcoming trauma is having somebody there for you to help you through it. There's no better person to help you through this than the person who's had the affair. Now, the injured spouse will tell you, yeah, I know that's true, but the betrayer, what you need to know as the betrayer is you are the best person to help your spouse heal your love, your care, your attention, your honesty about what's happened is really what your spouse needs to begin to heal. If they feel like they have that from you, you guys are going to be okay. If your spouse feels like you're not being honest, the odds aren't too good.

So they really need to feel like you're on their side, that you're trying to be there for them. One of the things that keeps people from being the healer and that really keeps people stuck in the trauma is while they were having the affair, the betrayer was living in a fantasy. Like we said earlier, they're living in a fantasy world, but what's happened is they're creating an unfair picture of their spouse. So they're with this affair partner, my God, this is amazing on cloud nine, they're in love, they're happy, they're no responsibilities, no realities in the picture yet. And so they're looking at their spouse and they're comparing their fair partner with their spouse and they're thinking, gosh, look at all these negative qualities that my spouse has all this, all that. It's really an unfair comparison. So in my experience, it does take time for involved spouses to let their feelings about the affair partner fade from their mind. But once they do, the faults of the fair partner usually outweigh the faults of the spouse. The longer a betrayer is ambivalent about being the healer his or her spouse needs, the more the injured spouse's insecurities in craziness will only increase craziness. But if the betrayer meets the betrayed spouse with compassion, it will help him or her to regain their composure back again.

Morgan:

And really that's a lot of patience because they will ask the same questions over and over

Brad:

Ist

Morgan:

That correct?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

Usually until they can really process the answer that you're giving and really process the information for themselves until they can start really fully understanding. Is that

Brad:

Correct? Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. The idea with this is is that our greatest predictor in overcoming any trauma is having somebody there. For us, what's so necessary about affair recovery is we need the person who had the affair to turn around and say, I'm going to be here for you. I'm going to try to do whatever it takes. I'm going to be here. I'm going to have compassion. I'm going to be patient. I'm going to answer these questions. I'm going to be honest. When we have that, we're going to be okay. And we are really not recovering from trauma until we have that

Morgan:

Brad. People, they often feel very hopeless and you're giving them a lot of hope. So we're talking about hope and the recovery process and trauma. Tell us what they need to know about the rest of the recovering from trauma.

Brad:

Now, this is the single most important idea I want our listeners to get today is the greatest predictor of success in overcoming any kind of trauma isn't what the trauma is per se. It's not being shot at in Iraq. It's not going over a roadside bomb. It's not experiencing war, it's not being sexually abused. And PTSD basically means a deep personal wound. So that could be sexual abuse, it could be experiencing a riot

Morgan:

In

Brad:

A third world country. It could be anything that's a deep personal wound. The greatest predictor of this though is having somebody there for us that we can call upon for support. Having somebody that we can turn to and in a fair recovery, having the betrayer be there for you, turning towards you saying, yeah, I'm going to do whatever it takes. That's what helps people heal. So it's not really what came before necessarily. Not every affair is equal. There is a lot of pain. If we have that ingredient, we're going to be okay, and that's really the major thing that we need is betrayer to become

Morgan:

The healer,

Brad:

To become the healer, and we can overcome this trauma. That takes time though, even when they're really there though, I don't want people listening to say, gosh, we'd be so much further along if they only just did this or just did that. You want to be really careful as the injured spouse, not to police the betrayer in the sense of being critical, condemning, nagging, blaming. You want to be very careful not to do any of those things

Morgan:

Because you want to encourage them to be the healer.

Brad:

Yeah, you want 'em to encourage to be the healer because what they're thinking is, gosh, this person's such a drag. They're nagging.

Morgan:

Maybe I'm doing more harm than good by talking about this,

Brad:

And so it's kind of a catch 22, and so you want to be really careful. Let them know you appreciate everything that you're receiving, that you're getting, and you're only going to get more when you do that. So you want to be really careful, but you want to help them be educated on everything,

Morgan:

And that's really hard because in the moment of that pain and everything, it's very easy to say, gosh, they don't deserve any praise because they've been so horrible to me.

Brad:

And that's true. People feel like that and they feel like they usually early on in the process, early on in the process, I don't want to give a definite time, but definitely within the first three months, usually that's when they feel that way. The other thing is this is what can hinder people from being the healer, and I see this a lot. In fact, I see this more than the first two that we talked about. Still being caught up in the fantasy element is really the betrayer feels a lot of shame. They feel really stupid about having an affair and just the fact that they feel stupid or shame or guilty about this and there's a certain level of guilt that's healthy, but when it turns into shame, I'm a bad person, I'm stupid. All this stuff keeps you self-consumed about the affair. It keeps you focused on yourself because you

Morgan:

Feel you have to do something to fix yourself first.

Brad:

Yeah, you think of that, but you also feel so bad that and you see your spouse hurting them and in a sense kind of bleeding to death and you're the one who pulled the trigger. It really keeps you from being there for them the way that you need to be.

Morgan:

And I've heard you talk about it. It's like this guilt, shame, depression cycle where you just go into this deep depression sometimes where like you're saying, very self-consumed and absorbed and thinking, gosh, I did this horrible thing. There's no way out, there's no hope. And you just kind of fall into this depression.

Brad:

You fall into this depression and it really keeps you from being there for your spouse,

Morgan:

The healer that you need to be.

Brad:

And usually when people are like this, they don't like expressing their shame, their guilt, they don't like sharing these things, and you really need to express those things to the spouse that you betrayed. You need to open up emotionally. You need to share things with them. You need to let them know that you're really sorry. In fact, one of the things that can really help you be a healer is just tears, just conviction. I'm really sorry about this. I'm sad about this. And just tears can really letting your spouse know how eaten up by this you really

Morgan:

Are. We're talking about the things that hinder the healing process when it comes to trauma. We have one that betrayed their spouse. What keeps them from becoming the healer, Brad?

Brad:

Well, really lack of knowledge about the process. Sometimes there's still feelings for their affair partner and also their own guilt and shame about what they've committed. They really feel devastated by that. The other thing, we only have a few minutes left, so I want to go over something I mentioned last week. We talked about ambiguity. I want to be clear on this. This is something I wanted to discuss. The period of uncertainty. I really discouraged people from separating when they're trying to work out the marriage, people who separate to try to work on the marriage. There has been some research that's shown that there's only a 13% chance of actually reconciling after people do a trial separation, and that's because they get a newfound sense of independence, family and friends, a knowingly encourage divorce, that kind of thing. They say things, I'll just be happy. Whatever makes you happy. There is a time when separation is a good idea and that's when there's the threat of physical violence. I want that to be clear that I'm not totally against the idea of separation. I am in most cases, but I do make an exception for the threat. A physical violence. If your life is in danger or if you're getting beat up and you're finding that this isn't productive, then it's a good idea to work on this from a distance and separate

Morgan:

And it's never productive to be beat up, that's for sure. No,

Brad:

Not at all.

Morgan:

Let me just ask, how do you recognize the symptoms of trauma?

Brad:

Okay. Some of the common feelings, reactions that people have is there's intrusive memories about the affair. Feeling like their mind can't control the onslaught of questions that they're having about the affair. There's flashbacks or what I mean by that is reliving the discovery of the affair and feeling like they did the first time they heard about the affair. There's nightmares about it, trying to avoid thinking or talking about the affair, feeling emotionally numb, avoiding activities that were once enjoyed, hopelessness about the future, having problems with memory, trouble concentrating, difficulty maintaining close relationships, rage, irritability or anger, overwhelming guilt or shame, self-destructive behavior such as drinking too much, maybe even using drugs, trouble sleeping, being easily startled or frightened, hearing or seeing things that aren't there. Experiencing amnesia, forgetting all of the affair or parts of it, feeling like the affair did not really happen, as if it were a dream or covered by fog, feeling like they're outside observers, like they're watching this happen to someone else.

Morgan:

It's shock

Brad:

And of course an anxiety. So those are the symptoms and really it's a deep personal wound that people experience and the major thing to heal from this is, and we're going to get into this, it's finding meaning and it's really just understanding why this happened. Once you feel like you can understand it, then your mind can rest. You no longer need to wrestle with it and have the obsessiveness. And next time we meet, what we're going to talk about is we're going to get into a little bit more in depth on what happens to our mind, how the mind works and how really when we experience deep personal wounds like this and experience symptoms of PTSD, we will experience what is called almost in a sense disassociation, where a mind and memories kind of just separate or shatter into different pieces, and this is why people will have flashbacks, just reminders that pop out of nowhere. It means there's unresolved business. We have unfinished business that needs to be dealt with so we can heal, and then when we are completely healed from this, we will no longer have some of the disassociated features of this

Morgan:

Or the going back and returning and hashing it over, and you can kind of return to reality again and not be so zombie-like be back to the real world again and able to

Brad:

Relate. We're also talk about how you're recovering from the affair. That's good. We're talking about that too. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 16: How to work through anger and talk about the affair without pushing each other away?

Brad:

When I was betrayed, I thought people would tell me I was crazy or nuts and I didn't get the professional help I needed to the way I should have because I was worried about being stigmatized, felt humiliated. I felt different. In some ways, I felt like an outcast. And of course self-confidence took a blow. But injured spouses who've been betrayed know about this pain. They know about some of the symptoms. I'm going to get into that. The betrayer doesn't really understand this. They have tons of guilt. They feel very guilty about what happened. They have a lot of shame about it, and that shame actually can be counterproductive.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. And we're officially on episode number 16. We're talking about what is PTSD, what is this trauma symptom of PTSD or what is PTSD? And if you haven't already, go and download episode 15. Listen to the first part of this trauma series. It's a four part series and we're on the second part. Also, it'll really help to download and listen to episode one where we talk about the seven stages of fair recovery process because that is really going to help you as well. But also before I forget, I want to mention go to healing broken trust.com/episode 16. That is the number 16, and download your free resources. That way you can really have some help through this process and we're super excited to have that there for you. So without further ado, let's play the recording of what is PTSD. Brad, can you explain to us what is PTSD?

Brad:

That's a great question. PTSD is really a deep emotional wound. It's really a trauma. People feel like recovering from an affair is hopeless or that kind of thing, and I'm not diagnosing anybody who's been cheated on with that disorder. People have symptoms of that and to be diagnosed with that, it's definitely not by listening to a radio show. You can self-diagnose, but it's really, you need a professional would have to diagnose you with that. But there's a lot of themes and a fair recovery, and one of those is is the betrayed spouse has symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and people experience that anytime they experience a deep personal wound, that trauma. And that could be when people have been raped, mugged, physically, sexually abused, even when people have been held hostage, hijacked terrorism bombings, seen somebody kill themselves, or seeing somebody die in front of you, torture, sexually assault, surviving a natural disaster.

There's a lot of different things and infidelity isn't in that category of trauma and hurt. And as I mentioned last week, and I want to give you guys hope listening to this, infidelity recovery is not, it's a very simple process, but it doesn't mean it's easy. And what I mean by that is the greatest predictor of overcoming all those different things that I just listed is really having somebody there for you. And part of infidelity recovery is getting the story out, understanding the details of what happened, but also feeling like you guys are both there for each other and that the person who had the affair can be a nurturer and a healer that's going to help you heal. That's basically what PTSD is.

Morgan:

What specifically makes PTSD so hard to recover from? I mean, gosh, muggings and terrorist attacks. I mean that's big. What about a fair recovery and P ts D is so hard to recover,

Brad:

It makes this difficult to recover from?

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Well, anything I guess, and just a short way to say it is intentional human causes. They're the most difficult traumas to recover from, and that's followed by unintentional human traumas. And so recovering from an affair isn't as easy as recovering from being mugged or witnessing a riot or those kinds of things. And the simple reason for that is the injured spouse thought they knew who their spouse was, they thought they knew who the betrayer was, and the betrayer was someone who was once thought of as safe and dependable. And the pain of that affair hurts worse when injured spouses feel that the betrayer was someone who wouldn't hurt them in a million years.

Morgan:

Yeah, with bombings and things that we've experienced even recently, it's kind of like, it feels like a random act of hatred that's kind of towards everyone, not just a person that might've lost their life or lost a limb. It doesn't feel as it was a direct attack on you, specifically your spouse doing that to you, which it feels more like a direct attack on you as a person.

Brad:

And it's much, much more personal. I depended on you and you turned your back on me. I needed you abandoned me, I needed you, and you left me. And so it's much more intentional. It's somebody, it's much more personal,

Morgan:

More targeted towards

Brad:

Obviously then a freak tornado or a hurricane. Obviously those are painful and that's what makes this hard to get over it. But I don't want to sit here and talk like nobody's ever recovered from this or it's impossible. And then the reason I'm really going over this is the injured spouse knows they're an incredible amount of pain, but they feel like they're crazy. They don't understand that this actually has a name. When I was betrayed, I thought people would tell me I was crazy or nuts and I didn't get the professional help I needed to the way I should have because I was worried about being stigmatized, felt humiliated. I felt different in some ways I felt like an outcast. And of course self-confidence took a blow. But injured spouses who've been betrayed know about this pain. They know about some of the symptoms I'm going to get into. The betrayer doesn't really understand this. They have tons of guilt. They feel very guilty about what happened. They have a lot of shame about it. And that shame actually can be counterproductive. You would think the shame would help them be a healer, but it actually causes them to minimize the affair.

And it's something that we're going to get into in the future. But what happens is they don't really understand this. And a lot of people in the mental health community don't understand this. Pastors don't understand this. What will happen is, is you go to people for help. They don't understand that you have symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. As the betrayed partner in this, they're going to tell you things like, well, you got to bury it. You got to let go. You got to forgive. And forgiveness ultimately is something that we want to work towards, but you can't just move past it. I wanted to get past it. If I could have, I would've. And so what I'm trying to say is this kind of pain is something that is, it's intrusive. It's intrusive, it's constant, but it's something that the betrayer needs to understand. There is a path forward, there's a way to deal with this. And telling your spouse things like, you got to get over this. You are crazy, you're nuts. And you're doing that only to minimize your own pain, but it has to be done in an environment of nurturing and healing to work past that and just telling somebody they're nuts and crazy actually causes further pain.

Morgan:

I guess my question is how do we work through our anger and talk about the affair without pushing the betrayer away?

Brad:

That's a good question. That's actually a great question. Part of this is how do you work through the pain of this without demoralizing the betrayer? So they don't think that this is impossible situation. There's a couple different things that can be done. The need to talk about the affair, the need to share details, the need to really, what I would call find meaning. What we really need is for both spouses to understand why this happened and for it to make sense to them. Sometimes the betrayer may know before the injured spouse knows, but how you talk about this in a way where both people feel respected is really to control anger outbursts as the injured spouse and having those symptoms, there's a lot of rage. Sometimes it's not even really anger, it's more rage and it's always kind of below the surface. It's always there. And as the injured spouse, you have to be careful with that because your anger is going to push that person away.

Morgan:

It's kind of counterproductive.

Brad:

Yeah, it's really, it's very counterproductive. And something that we're going to get into later is how there's personality traits of people who are betrayers. They're conflict avoiders for the most part, I would say maybe 19 out of 20 in my practice, they are conflict. They do not discussing things that are emotional nature, expressing their own emotions is difficult. Asking for what they want and need is difficult. And so you are basically with that kind of anger and rage, you are bulldozing over this person and it becomes counterproductive at that point to then try to talk to them about,

Morgan:

And you won't get the answers you really want.

Brad:

No. Yeah, well, it's not going to be productive. And so what you need to do is limit how much you talk about this in the beginning after discovery, you're going to talk about it probably hours on end.

Some couples will, some couples won't talk about it at all. But most couples I find they talk about it extensively. They do go into depth about it. And what you need to do as time goes on is try to limit your talks to this, to 15 to 30 minutes with kind of an idea. I call open limitations. Any question can be asked at any time, but you do want to shy away from sexual details, certain sexual details or just re-traumatizing. And what I mean by that is peeling the scab off and re-put salt on the wound when you do that. And then just love letters or correspondence of that type. You want to stay away from that area, but anything else is free game. The limitations part is just talking about it for 15 to 30 minutes because as people talk about this, you can get heated, you can get upset, and when you're talking about this, you need to really just limit that interaction.

Morgan:

Yeah. Because the more time that you spend talking about it, you start going in a big circle asking the same question over

Brad:

And over, especially if you're not getting any help. And that's where professional help is necessary with somebody who knows how to walk you through this. So when people run into that situation getting their spouse to talk, it's making sure you're not bulldozing over them.

The betrayer is probably somebody who doesn't like conflict. You've got to be able to talk to them in a way that helps them open up and talk about it. They normally don't want to talk about it. They don't feel like they can be forgiven. And so part of this is letting them know that you see what they're giving you, see the effort and letting them know in no uncertain terms that you guys are working towards forgiveness. And right now that may not be possible in your situation, but kind of the end goal is, I want to put this behind us, I want to put this behind me as the injured spouse and forgiveness is something that we're working towards. Forgiveness occurs in stages, we're working towards it. Maybe we haven't reached full forgiveness yet, but I want that and I need you to be here with me, you as a betrayer to help me work through this so we can reach full forgiveness. But many times betrayers will feel, gosh, there's nothing that can be done to fix this. I have done the unforgivable sin. They can't let it go. They're letting me know they can't let it go. And so what I'll encourage people to do as well is as the betrayed, as the injured spouse, really to keep a journal just for yourself to write in and express everything in there and get it all

Brad:

Out.

Brad:

That's when you can say the mean ugly, hateful things you want to say. But if you say those things that you would normally put in a journal and reserve that your spouse is going to lose all motivation, they're going to feel like, I can't really be there. We can't heal from this. And they're going to stop trying. It's really what's happening is learned helplessness. They keep butting their heads against the wall and they feel like this wall will never come down. And so they quit trying. And so as the injured spouse, you need to use the policy of open limitations, keep a journal, but also let your spouse know, I do want to forgive you. I want to work towards this. I am not happy with being this upset and I'm not trying to push you away with my anger.

Morgan:

When you are feeling these feelings that it's a natural process, it's kind of like when you are just so upset and you naturally avoid any kind of painful feelings. And so we don't want to go there so we don't talk about it or we just don't want to talk about it. So we just kind of suppress it and we avoid it and we push it back. But the natural process is to feel this pain and eventually it will subside after getting help, after talking about it, after finding meaning and finding resolve. But talking about in the same vein, learning your spouse or significant other has cheated on you is a life altering event. You talk about the injured spouse, not only feeling numb and avoiding talking about the affair, but also avoiding other situations as well because of this pain. And I mentioned significant other because before I met and married you, my handsome husband, I was cheated on by someone I dated.

I remember walking down the hall and seeing him with her and just feeling devastated. But it's not until now looking back that I realized the way I dealt with it was avoiding activities that I enjoyed and I used to participate in and avoided people, and I just avoided every social activity that I loved and I just became very depressed. And in the book, the principles of a Fair Recovery, which you and I got together and wrote, you talk about restricted range of affect. What is that? And can you kind of elaborate why is it that we avoid these situations and why is it that we just don't feel like talking about it and we kind of suppress these feelings? And how important is it to talk about this?

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good question. Part of this is, lemme back up to kind of answer your question, because the affair is so painful, it makes sense that we would try to logically numb feelings about it. Something I try to do in my office is to help couples understand you cannot numb painful memories without also numbing the good memories as well. And not just good memories from their relationship, but from their life. So the injured spouse, they try to suppress all feelings in order to numb the painful feelings from the affair. As a result, injured spouses often avoid pleasant activities, including those they once enjoyed before the discovery of the affair, maybe even things like traveling, hobbies, relaxation.

Morgan:

So they're rewriting the whole history of the relationship at that point in their mind.

Brad:

Yeah, that's what they're doing. But because they're trying to avoid, because they're in so much pain and torment thinking about the affair and the obsessive thoughts that go with it, they just want to numb out that pain. And so what they do is they numb out those painful emotions, but they numb out the good emotions. And so then they start avoiding pleasant activities they once enjoyed

Morgan:

Because maybe it reminds them of the person that they were together with or I wonder why that is.

Brad:

It could be that, but I mean it's really that simple. It's you're hurting, you go numb and then depression can build and then you slack, motivation,

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Kind of

Morgan:

Thing.

Brad:

So things such as traveling, hobbies, relaxation, finding pleasure in their kids isn't as enjoyable. So after the affair, betrayed spouse will say, I don't know how to have fun or enjoy myself anymore. So betrayed spouses commonly feel detached from other people. After going through an affair, people often assume that they are now different and that no one could possibly relate to their experience. They feel like they can't talk about this, but what happened, what the partners did for fear of judgment, they feel like keeping the secret about the affair leads them to feeling further disconnected from others. They no longer feel comfortable in social situations, and so they avoid gatherings or just don't find any pleasure in them. But the problem is the injured spouse isn't connecting with others because they don't feel like they're able to be emotionally open. And so affair recovery is difficult when the injured spouse is struggling to contain memories of the affair. And part of feeling emotionally numb is having what you just asked me about a minute ago, restricted range of affect. And that basically means the injured spouse could have trouble laughing, crying, or loving, and the injured spouse might assume she has lost the ability to feel compassionate, intimate, tender, or sexual. However, at some point, the healthy expression and experience of grief and pain must occur. So we have to have that.

Morgan:

Oh yeah, you

Brad:

Have to, for her to become

Morgan:

Talk about it,

Brad:

It has to be a healthy expression of grief and pain for them to become healthy and emotional individual once again. And so the injured spouse's recovery is vital for the recovery of the marriage after the affair.

Morgan:

So it's kind of like when you've discovered that your spouse has done this, you've talked about going back and forth, people go back from rage to anger, to sadness, to numbness, to just all these different feelings. So the suppressing of feelings is kind of one of those back and forth. So maybe they feel that one minute and then the next minute they feel rage. Is that kind of accurate? A back and forth

Brad:

Kind of healing comes in waves, meaning in the beginning you're an emotional rollercoaster, healing's up and down. Lemme just close a stop before we into our program. Here's the thing. Not only do injured spouses feel disconnected from other people, but they also feel disconnected from their future. They're unable to imagine or look forward to a normal happy life and relationship because they don't feel like they can have a normal life. Again. Many times they don't make plans about the future. Instead, betrayed husband probably has pessimistic expectations about what the future holds, including the affair happening. Again, this outlook is called the doomsday orientation because no matter how good life seems, the betrayed spouse believes troubles right around the corner. So that's kind of in the future. They're always like, well, this is always going to fail, this is always going to be bad. And they kind of have a pessimistic outlook. But let me say this before we finish. If injured spouses are stuck in the past, revisiting and reliving the affair with the unresolved pain, guilt, anger, grief, or fear, and trying to desperately block those feelings out, they will undoubtedly lack the energy or interest to plan for the future of the relationship. But when they try to block out the past, they block out the future as well.

Morgan:

It's a very thin wall that they put up that blocks those emotions because you talk about normal thoughts and memories, you file them away, you talk about them, you kind of work through them, and then they go into this happy place that's like a Rolodex that's filed away,

But with this emotion, this pain caused by infidelity, it's just right there. You haven't talked about it, you haven't worked through it yet, and it's just right there behind this thin wall that has these cracks in it. Right? And bits and pieces kind of word out, for lack of better words, kind of like a full glass of water where it's at the very, very top, the water's right at the top of the brim. You shake it just a little bit, the table just a little bit, and it overflows with just, and it's kind of like our feelings and our emotions. Would you,

Brad:

Yeah, I would say that's accurate. But here, let me say there's good news here. The first three months after the discovery of the affair is the hardest period. That period is when most symptoms of PTSD are at their worst, and so that's usually the hardest period for the betrayed spouse because the emotional rollercoaster is at its highest. And so for half of individuals, they're able to really see significant improvement after the first three months.

And a lot of that is really dependent upon how well the betrayer, how well they are to be supportive emotionally, be honest, be transparent, and really display the attitude of whatever it takes. That's really the big key we have to have with that. Okay. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 27: Are Some Wounds Too Big To Heal From?