Ep 85 - Why You Haven't Rebuilt Trust Yet

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Transcript:

Morgan (00:21):

Hi, welcome to Healing Broken Trust. We're Brad and Morgan Robinson. And today we are talking about the process of repairing trust and we just want to jump right in. So Brad, let's talk to them about repairing trust.

Brad (00:33):

Yeah. There's a pattern that researchers have identified or a process that researchers have identified that helps couples repair trust. And it's a research-based model. It explains why just apologizing often doesn't do the work, the deeper work that people need to build trust. And the big idea is that trust repair is not a one time ... Or excuse me, trust repair is not a one person project. It's not just up to one person to rebuild trust. It's actually a two-way back and forth process between two people. That's what they discovered.

(01:09):

And like we've talked about before, there's research on what they call the victim perpetrator dynamic. One person gets wronged, the other person did the offense, but it's up to both people to repair a trust. So on one side is the person who was hurt and whose trust was violated. In the research, they call this the trustor. We're going to use our normal language around that instead of saying trust her. But it's the person who was ... So on one side is the person who was hurt and whose trust was violated. And then on the other side, Morgan, is the trustee. That's the person who caused the damage or is accused of causing it. So you have the truster, the person who broke, the person who was injured, whose trust was violated. And then you have the other person obviously who caused the damage or at the very least has been accused of causing that damage.

(02:00):

And what this model says, this process says is that it says something really important. Trust gets rebuilt when the person who caused the damage or is accused of causing it makes efforts to prove they're trustworthy that outweigh the injured person's hurt, that outweigh the injured person's hurt and their natural drive to protect themselves. So that's really important. And that right there is where a lot of breakdown happens is, okay, you've broken my trust, but your efforts aren't outweighing my fear of getting hurt again. Your efforts are not outweighing the hurt that has happened to me. And when we can't even get past that level, we're not going to get it where we need to go because I'm hurt and injured and you're not putting in the effort that tells me I'm safe enough yet. I'm scared. I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm not seeing the kind of effort I need that you're willing to do whatever it takes.

(02:59):

That tells me, okay, I can relax with you. I don't have to be careful. So in other words, after a breach, a person who's hurt isn't neutral. Their mind and their body are often saying, "Don't be vulnerable again until you have a reason to be safe, until you have a reason to be vulnerable with this person."

(03:19):

So there's resistance and they're not trying to be difficult, but that resistance that they have is self-protection.

Morgan (03:26):

Right. Great. So that's why there's really got to be both people coming together to build and rebuild the trust, not to put the onus on the person who's been hurt. That's not the idea. It's really more about that person being aware of their pain and their hurt so that they can respond to the efforts of the person who violated the trust. Is that pretty fair to say?

New Speaker (03:55):

I think so. Yeah. I would say that's

Morgan (03:57):

Great. A good accurate assessment.

New Speaker (03:59):

Yeah.

Morgan (03:59):

So there were three questions, right? Yeah. Three big questions that were addressed.

New Speaker (04:04):

Yeah. So what they say is that that repairing trust moves through three big questions. You can kind of think of this as stages and which stage you're in determines what kind of repair actually works. So that's really important. So sometimes there's different tools in our tool belt that we can use, but depending on which stage we're in and the repair process determines what actually will stick and will land and be effective. So the first is just the first question that people have is, did you do it? That's the most basic question. Did you do it? Are you guilty or not? That's basically what they're asking. So this is the stage where the person who was hurt is trying to figure out what is true. So, did you sleep with them or not? Was this an emotional or physical affair? How long did this go on?

(04:54):

We're kind of that level where people get caught in those questions. So if the person who's accused can convincingly show that they're innocent or that the event didn't happen the way it's being interpreted, repair is quote unquote easier because it removes the foundation of mistrust. Did you have an affair? Did you not? And honestly, once you kind of get into that realm of like, I'm abandoned, I'm hurt, you betrayed me, there's a real trauma there. But according to the researchers who are applying this, not necessarily to infidelity, but to all kinds of situations, but it gets easier to repair trust if it didn't happen in the way that it's being interpreted. And that's what people will often think who've been unfaithful is like, okay, if it's only emotional, not physical, then that's got to be easier for us. So they'll minimize the lie. That's where trickle truth comes in because it's like, okay, I can't be as bad.

(05:54):

I got to kind of keep water it down, that kind of thing. But ultimately that ends up hurting trust long term

New Speaker (06:00):

Because

New Speaker (06:00):

They're denying and they're lying. And what people need who've been betrayed is like, "I just need the whole truth. I just need the whole story." That kind of thing.

Morgan (06:12):

Yeah. So not dismissing, not minimizing, not lying, so to speak, to make it feel less bad because it's all bad anyways. So might as well just get it out there.

New Speaker (06:22):

Yeah, exactly. And Morgan, here's a key point, and this often gets overlooked. If the person who was hurt is still stuck on, did you do it? And then if we jump ahead to, "I promise I'll change," that kind of promise can fall flat because the person who was hurt is thinking, "Change from what? We haven't even agreed on what happened." And it's like, "What happened here? You haven't agreed on the details." And so there's like a second question that people have. Do you want to get into that one?

Morgan (06:50):

Oh yeah. So why did it happen? So first you've agreed on the details of what happened. You had a one night stand, you were unfaithful five times or whatever it is and it looked like this once that's been agreed upon, the second question then becomes, well, why did it happen? What led to this? If it's clear the trustee or the person accused did it, the next question, was this because of you or because of the situation? So now they're trying to make up and understand why it happened. And so it's where people argue about the cause. The trustor, according to the research, the person who was hurt is asking, does this reveal something about your character and your choices or was this driven by pressures, context or a breakdown in judgment?

New Speaker (07:42):

So I think it's important what you're saying, Morgan, because the person who's injured, they're asking why. And literally everybody who's been betrayed is asking the same thing like, why? What is the cause of this? Is it your character? Is it your choices? What was going on? Is

Brad (07:56):

There

New Speaker (07:56):

Pressure? What was the context around this? And sometimes people who've been betrayed blame themselves, sometimes they don't, but they're looking for a reason. And ironically, people blaming themselves for this helps them actually feel in some ways empowered after a trauma because it's like, if I know the reason for this and if it's me, then I'm not as-

Morgan (08:19):

I'm in control.

New Speaker (08:19):

I'm more in control of

Morgan (08:21):

It.

New Speaker (08:21):

And I'm not saying that to blame somebody for being betrayed like, "Oh, you did it or it's your fault." I'm just explaining how it's normal for people to wonder why did this happen. And if they can't find a cause, they'll blame themselves. And even if they do have a cause, they'll still blame themselves because doesn't mean it's true. It's just a defense mechanism to try to take some degree of control over this. And at this stage, Morgan, the person who caused the damage often tries to explain, "Well, here was what was happening. I was overwhelmed. I wasn't thinking clearly." They'll blame it on circumstances, they'll provide justifications for it, but the person who's hurt what they're hear is more excuse making.

Morgan (09:03):

Yeah, what they hear. Yeah.

New Speaker (09:04):

Yeah. And that really is a huge breakdown, especially when we get into the area of apologies or we get into the area of just letting the person who's injured talk about their feelings around it. People will quickly try to explain themselves thinking that, "Well, if you understood where I'm coming from and you understood my thought process around this, then you could..." At that point, you wouldn't feel bad because you would understand the real reason behind it.

Morgan (09:32):

Or take a target off my back.

New Speaker (09:34):

Yeah, take a target off my back. But it comes across as defensiveness. It comes across as counter attacking, maybe even blaming. We just get into a negative cycle around it and it weakens the trust rebuilding process. So the person who's been hurt when we hear things like, "Well, here was what was happening, so you have some context or I was overwhelmed, I wasn't thinking clearly." When that happens, people will feel like they're just hearing excuses. So this stage is delicate. Explanations can help if they build clarity and the person who's taking ownership as they do it, but they often backfire if they sound like they're dodging responsibility, which is usually what happens, to be honest. I would say 5% of couples get that right where the person who's unfaithful isn't dodging responsibility, they take ownership. And part of that's there's intense shame. They remember the event differently.

(10:32):

They have some of those things that we've talked about before.

Morgan (10:35):

Yeah, absolutely. And so the third question, do you want to jump into it or do you want me to do- You go ahead. Okay. So that third question would be, well, can you change? It's very important. Can you change? So if it's accepted that the violation reflects on the trustee, the person who caused the damage, then the big question becomes, is this fixable? Is this who you are or is this something that you can change from or we can change from? And this is where trust repair becomes about the future. We're looking towards the future and us together, potentially staying together and working this out. And so the person who was hurt is basically asking, "Can I believe this won't happen again?" Is there a real correction happening or am I signing up for repeat harm? Are you going to do this again? Is this going to be a pattern?

(11:25):

Is this going to be who you are?

New Speaker (11:29):

Exactly. Yeah. And that's really important.

Morgan (11:31):

Yeah.

New Speaker (11:32):

That question of can you change? So we go from, did you do it like yes or no? Did you do it? It's kind of black or white to why did it happen? And then ultimately, can you change? And you know what's interesting, Morgan, is that usually people who've broken trust ask themselves the same questions. They're not asking did I do it. They know if they did it or not.

Morgan (11:55):

Usually.

New Speaker (11:55):

Yeah. Unless they're like blackout drunk or something, but they are asking, why did I do this and can I change? Most people are good. If they've broken trust, they don't want to do it

Brad (12:06):

Again.

New Speaker (12:06):

Even if they're really mad at their spouse, they felt like it was justified, that kind of thing. As some of that kind of wears off, some of that anger wears off and some of those justifications wear off that we've talked about already, they are wondering like, "I don't want to do this. Can I change? I want to be a good person. I want to live by my values. Why did I do this?

Morgan (12:30):

" I want to have true love. Yeah, I want

New Speaker (12:31):

To have true love. Real connection. Yeah. They don't want to be kind of the villain in their own love story. And so what you're saying is important at this stage, so at this stage, what matters most isn't just words. So there's the question of, can you change? And usually there's promises, yes, I can, I won't ever do it again, that kind of thing. But what rebuilds trust is evidence over time.

(12:56):

Things like changes in behavior, transparency, accountability, putting safeguards in place, boundaries in place, and then just having consistency from the person who caused the damage. A breakdown that occurs here is when the person who broke trust is arguing about the kind of boundaries that are in place. They're like, "I don't want this kind of boundary put on me. I can't do that. That's too much. You're asking too much of me. " That kind of thing. And part of what needs to happen is what needs to happen is they got to just keep showing I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I can change. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, but they got to do it in the key result areas. And the two biggest areas to prevent future infidelity are going to be having healthy boundaries in place because negative boundaries or poor boundaries, I mean, give rise to opportunity.

(13:52):

A lot of the people who stray usually have poor boundaries. They share things that belong in the marriage with others. They can have people pleasing tendencies, people who get drunk or on drugs. Those are poor boundaries just because you're high. But the other area is they got to do what's called proximity seeking, meaning they got to learn to lean on their spouse emotionally when they're struggling. And what they normally do is they tend to bottle things up and they don't lean on their spouse emotionally. So if we can kind of get really good at both of those, like boundaries and then lean on our spouse emotionally, we're going to be more likely to be faithful in the future. And what's ironic about that is that a lot of people who stray don't feel like, "Yeah, I can lean on you emotionally. I just broke your trust.

(14:40):

I hurt you. I betrayed you. " So now they have a better reason for not being vulnerable and not doing proximity seeking so they have a better reason for doing it. But the irony is that they're still engaged in the same behavior that made them vulnerable and fair to begin with.

(14:57):

And that kind of behavior of like not using my voice, doing proximity, seeking, leaning on my spouse emotionally, what it does is when I don't do that, it creates resentment because things on my end don't get prepared. I'm not having that healthy conflict sometimes that needs to happen.

Morgan (15:12):

And I wonder if people in that position think to themselves, "I can't rely on you emotionally because you're already emotionally so weighted down and heavy and hurting. And for me to come and share how I'm feeling with you is putting more pressure on you than you need right now." But it's the opposite very often. It's very much like it would calm and keep those fears at bay for the person who's hurting because you're becoming more transparent. You're actually someone that they can trust a little bit more because you are relying on them for your emotional needs. And so it feels kind of like the opposite, but it really isn't. It's truly something that's necessary.

New Speaker (15:56):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Morgan, there are specific reasons why apologizing isn't enough. Now again, this model of trust for building isn't necessarily talking about infidelity. It's talking about kind of relationships in general, but we can learn from it. There's still insights we can glean. And one of the things they say in this research and this model is that apologizing is often too simple. And I would say, yeah, absolutely. In cases of infidelity, it's often too simple. That's why it doesn't work because it's just too complex of an injury. When an apology is happening at ... Apologies are usually reserved more for that level three where can you change? Usually apologies work better there because they're the person ... What apologies are saying is that I'm taking responsibility and I'm changing. This isn't going to happen again. Kind of like we talked about before where apologies are like an explicit promise like, "I'm not going to do this again." When somebody apologizes and says, "I'm sorry," basically they're kind of saying, "I'm not going to do this again." And that's usually kind of reserved more for that level three, "Can you change?"

Brad (17:08):

So

New Speaker (17:09):

That's why the apologies are more effective in that area, not necessarily when we're explaining why it happened. If the person who was hurt is stuck in, "Did you do this or why did you do it? " And they're trying to figure out what happened or why it happened, then that apology usually won't land because it doesn't answer that person's real question they're having. You're not addressing the actual thing they're bringing up.

New Speaker (17:32):

You're

New Speaker (17:32):

Trying to talk about something else, not what's really there. So congruency is important.

Morgan (17:37):

You got to meet them where they are. Yeah,

New Speaker (17:38):

You got to meet them where

Morgan (17:39):

They're at. The process. Yeah.

New Speaker (17:40):

Yeah. That congruency is really important. Now, some betrayals are going to be harder to repair because there's a question of like, is it integrity or just this is how the researchers define it. Is it integrity or competence? So a key insight from this paper is that not all trust violations are equal. Some are mainly about competence like, did you make a mistake, you messed up, you weren't capable in that moment. Was it a one night stand? Were you drunk? Was it a moment of weakness or was it more intentional? Were you coerced? How long did it last? That might be something. Was it a brief affair or was it a long affair? Was it just messages? Was it maybe was it this or was it that-

Morgan (18:24):

People you're with or ...

New Speaker (18:26):

Yeah. And so did you make a mistake? Did you mess up? Were you not capable in that moment? Those are often easier to repair because improvement is easier to believe. To believe.

New Speaker (18:39):

Right.

New Speaker (18:39):

And that's important.

New Speaker (18:40):

Yeah.

New Speaker (18:41):

But violations that hit integrity, like honesty, faithfulness, moral character are harder because negative integrity information tends to weigh heavier and stick longer. So if I get information about somebody or if I'm married and okay, you cheated on me, you betrayed me and I'm getting information that this is about your integrity and your moral character, that's going to way harder than like if it's just like a other mess up.

Morgan (19:05):

Because it speaks to the core of the person and who they are. And if that's who you are at the core of you, you're just someone who loves to be unfaithful or it's just who you are, then it's going to be a lot harder for someone to believe that you can change or that you want to change, that change is possible. But I would argue that most people are not like that in the sense of like they don't necessarily want to be unfaithful. I mean, I'm sure that people are out there, but most of the time people do want to have a good, loving relationship.

New Speaker (19:41):

Yeah, exactly. Morgan, one of the other things that they mentioned is that what does not help trust building is mixed messaging. So mixed messages can backfire. So there's certain repair attempts that can make things worse. And when there's mixed messaging where the person who is accused denies that they did any wrongdoing, but then they apologize for it like, "No, I didn't do it. I'm sorry you feel like I did." Sometimes that actually makes people feel worse or-

Morgan (20:13):

Because you're apologizing for their feelings. You're saying, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you had that experience." It can say, it really speaks that they're sorry for how you were feeling, that you are responding the way you are instead of being sorry for their actions or being sorry for the hurt that they caused. That's the big reason that makes messaging to be very mindful and careful about how you word and approach your apology is important.

New Speaker (20:46):

Yeah. Now, another type of mixed message is somebody who is saying I'm innocent, I didn't do it. However, if I did do it, this is why I would've done it. No, I didn't shoot on you. No, I didn't have an affair, but if I did, I would've done it because you neglected me and you hurt me and you weren't there and you embarrassed me, but so I have the right to do it, but I didn't do it. Well, that's a very big mixed message and it doesn't fit logically like you're saying you didn't do it, but here's all the reasons you could have done it.

New Speaker (21:19):

Yeah, you should

New Speaker (21:21):

Have. That doesn't make sense. Obviously suspicions are going to go up for the person who's hurt in that kind of situation. That

Morgan (21:28):

Alone would be a pain that would be a hurt.

New Speaker (21:30):

Well, another mixed message that's really common is I care about you, but then when the person who's been injured says, "Okay, here's what I need to make it better." And then the person who's unfaithful doesn't do anything about it. "I need you to set boundaries. I need you to be honest with me. I need you to let me do blah, blah, blah to understand where you're at and how you feel, go to therapy, join Brad and Morgan's program, different things like that. But you're saying you're willing to do whatever it takes, but then you're like, " Nope, I won't do that. "That's a mixed message. "I won't go to therapy. I won't get help. I won't go- I won't do this. I won't do this. " And that just sends mixed messages.

(22:17):

Now there is patterns that people can get into like we've already talked about. The model that we're talking about says that trust repair doesn't only end and quote unquote fixed or not fixed. It can settle into patterns. Sometimes both people push hard where the person who caused the damage pushes for trust and the person who's hurt pushes back and then they get escalated into conflict and it creates escalation and constant conflict when that happens. You also see the reverse. The person who's hurt is like, "No, you're going to do this, you're going to be accountable, you're going to do this need, you're going to meet that. " And then the other person gets their back against the wall and kind of fights back or gets kind of rebellious, so to speak.

Brad (23:06):

I'm

New Speaker (23:06):

Not going to comply, that kind of thing. And the person who caused the damage, sometimes the person who caused the damage, if they don't put in the effort and then the person who was hurt becomes even more sure they can't trust, you get mistrust, confirmation or suspicion hardens. That's a fancy way of saying basically, "I need you to do X, Y, Z for me because I don't trust you and I ask for it to be done and then you don't do it, it actually confirms I can't trust you. I need you to put this boundary into place. I need you to be honest. I need you to choose me. I need you to work hard at this, but then you don't do it. I need those things from me because I don't trust you. But then if you don't do it, it actually confirms, yeah, I shouldn't trust you.

(23:53):

" And that's really hard and sad.

Morgan (23:56):

Yeah, it is. And it's interesting because I often wonder why people would push back when their spouse is wanting them to do X, Y, or Z to rebuild trust and they don't do it. And I usually see that they don't know how to do it and they don't know how to break out of the patterns and they just really need someone to show them.

New Speaker (24:17):

Well, Morgan, yeah, I'm speaking generally, part of why people don't do the work who've been unfaithful is like we talked about earlier, intentionality. Was this act intentional or not? And when people do an act that they know is wrong, intentionally do it and they know it's wrong and they know people are going to get hurt when they find out, usually they have less remorse after the fact. They have less guilt about the act, at least immediately after it's discovered. That doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever. But when people have that lack of remorse and not any real guilt about it, they're going to struggle to comply with the wounded partner's wishes. They're going to be like, "Why?" "No, I'm not going to do that. "Because part of this, like we've talked about in our podcast, you have to address the underlying negative cycle that's there because if we don't address the negative cycle that we're in, we're healing with a negative cycle.

(25:16):

And all of these things that we're talking about today that are like mismatches are all examples of trying to heal with a negative cycle. And part of what we've created with our program is we help you get out of your negative cycle so you can actually heal. Otherwise, you're healing with the cycle that was in place most likely when this was created.

Brad (25:36):

I

New Speaker (25:36):

Had a couple recently and they were talking about their negative cycle and they're like, " Yeah, we've had this negative cycle for 30 years and then trust is broken, there's an affair and now they're trying to heal from an affair with that same pattern. And sometimes people will temporarily get better after an affair gets discovered, but then that power of the pattern that they've been in, the bad habits that they've had begin to suppress their good intentions and good efforts. And they just get stuck in this. It's a mess.

(26:07):

"So here's what you can do with this information. One practical takeaway you can take from this is which of these three questions are we actually fighting about? Is it, did you do it? Probably we're probably past that. Some of you may be kind of there. Sometimes people listen to our podcast because they suspect somebody has been unfaithful, but maybe we're kind of past that like, " I know because I caught them right-handed, I seen the text messages, I have proof, so maybe we're past, did you do it? "But then there's also the question of why did it happen. We go really deep in our program on why an affair happened. We talk about the 10 characteristics that the average person who has us strays, we go deep into that, which is really eye-opening. And when people see that like, " Oh my gosh, I have these characteristics.

(26:55):

"And probably about 90% of people would say," Yeah, I have all 10 of these. "When people see that they have those characteristics, they are motivated to change because they don't want to be the same person. They're motivated to be a healer, they're motivated to change who they are because they're like, " Crap, this didn't happen in a vacuum. I have real things I got to change about myself. "And then the last ... Yeah, go ahead. The

Morgan (27:17):

Beautiful thing about that is it is changeable. There is hope, which

(27:21):

A lot of people, they get stuck thinking," Oh no, they get stuck in that can't you change mode, right, which is the next one that, oh gosh, this is who I am. I can't change who I am. I just have these desires and things like that. "But that's not reality. Reality is that change is the only thing that's inevitable in life, right? We're all changing, we're getting older, we're everything. So this can change. You can change and life can be better because of your self-improvement. So did you do it that phase? Why did it happen? And then can you change? Yeah.

New Speaker (27:59):

Yeah. And Morgan, the best repair attempts really depend on which question you're answering

Morgan (28:04):

Because

New Speaker (28:05):

You want to be congruent with where you're at.

(28:09):

Sometimes you don't want to have those repair mismatches. The biggest repair mismatch is what we started with this morning. It's this idea of the person who's been injured, they have a real concern on, is this going to happen again? Everything that we've said today, like, can I trust you? Do I mean anything to you? Do I matter to you? They're scared of trusting and they need the person who hurt them. They need the unfaithful party's efforts to outweigh their fears. So if you think about it on a scale, they need the unfaithful party's efforts to outweigh on a scale to override their objections so that they can really heal. Because if they don't sense that the person who's been unfaithful is willing to do whatever it takes, they're like, " No, this is going to happen again. "Is it true that once a cheater, always a cheater?

(29:05):

Is this going to happen in our case? I don't see you trying. I don't see the effort happening. And so they need to see that kind of effort. And then part of it too is like they need to see you growing in the right areas. So part of what we did at Healing Broken Trust is we created a comprehensive program that helps us as a couple, but also helps both partners and their individual needs to heal from this and to really not have this happen again. So if you're interested in that, please call our office. We would love to talk with you and see if you're a right fit for our program. Thank you for joining us today.

Morgan (29:42):

Yeah. And you can also reach out to us at healingbrokentrust.com. That's healingbrokentrust.com. And we'd love to partner with you and help you to heal in whatever relationship that you are in, you can absolutely have a beautiful man Marriage. Yeah. All right. Thanks

New Speaker (30:02):

Guys. Thank you guys. Thank you. We would love it if you're able to like and subscribe if this has been helpful for you. Oh. Yeah. So I'd love to see you guys address identity collapse splitting eraser as it relates to infidelity. Yeah. That's really important because identity is related to memory and if we part of the betrayed their identity, how they view these things gets wrapped up in that and how our identity also shapes what we remember. So for people who've been unfaithful, they can have an identity collapse where they don't remember certain things because it's a mismatch to who they say they are, who they believe themselves to be. And that can lead to compartmentalization. So yeah, really good question.

Morgan (31:01):

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm trying to think, but any other questions or anything? Any follow up questions maybe? We're so glad that you guys have joined us. We look forward to talking with you again next week. If you'd like to be reminded of these lives, definitely like and subscribe and you can also join our email list when you go to healingbrokentrust.com. If there's not any other questions, we'll call it a day.

New Speaker (31:43):

Yeah. Thank you guys for joining us and listening.

Morgan (31:45):

Yep.

New Speaker (31:46):

We appreciate you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

Ep 73: How they felt about you during their affair

Ep 8: Did They Really End The Affair? Is It Really Over? Why Is It Important To End The Affair The Right Way? How to Cut Off The Affair Parter For Good This Time.

Brad:

An apology and a verbal commitment isn't enough.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad Morgan Robinson. This is a podcast where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship. So if you're wanting to heal your marriage after any of these things, this is the podcast for you. And in episode eight, we're talking about how do you cut off the affair partner. So it's really important obviously, to cut off the affair partner, but one thing we want to remind you is we have free resources to help you through this process. If you go to healing broken trust.com/episode eight, that's episode the number eight, you can download our free resources there to help you through this process. So if you're in this position where you're struggling to cut off the affair partner, you might want to go back to episode four where we talk about how to fall out of love with the affair partner. That's really important. Episode two is also a really good one where we talk about limerence as well. So go back to those. Those can really help you if you are struggling to kind of cut off the affair. So that's really important. But with that, let's get started.

Today we're talking about how to end an affair. It seems clear to many of us that we can't have an affair partner in our marriage relationship in a relationship. But why is it that you can't gloss over this important step of cutting off the affair,

Brad:

Brad? Well, there's several reasons why some of 'em are quite obvious, but many times when people do have an affair, they think an apology is enough. They think that I've apologized, I've made a verbal commitment that should be good enough, and it's really not. And there's several reasons why an apology and a verbal commitment isn't enough. A verbal commitment to your spouse isn't enough. Part of that is because your spouse is terrified that this is going to happen again. I hear constantly from everybody who's been betrayed, they always say, how do I know this won't happen again? And if you don't cut this person out of your life in the right way, you're not creating safety for your marriage to go on for your marriage to heal. And so number, well, there's several different reasons why it's important to cut off the affair partner. I'm just going to go through a couple of them. I think the first is, is it sends the wrong message to your spouse and the affair partner still, he never told me it was over or she never told me it was over. So are they just busy right now or

Morgan:

Yeah, I guess I can just check up with them week.

Brad:

I'll check up with 'em later. Yeah, maybe they're just busy. We didn't talk every day anyway, so they're going to contact you again later.

Morgan:

And that's the affair partner.

Brad:

Yeah, that's the affair partner thinking that you don't send, it sends a message to your spouse. I'm not really serious about rebuilding this. I'm not really serious about building this back. And that's

Morgan:

One foot in, one foot out,

Brad:

And that's a dangerous place to be. So like I said earlier, ending the affair, it's vital to creating safety for the injured spouse, the betrayed spouse. They need to know this won't happen again. And that's a big step towards creating that safety. Also, ending the affair is vital to ending your own ambiguity about if you want to stay or not. Many people I've worked with who have been still had contact with the affair partner, whether they worked with them or didn't work with them, but had contact with them, they stayed in that period of ambiguity. We discussed where they were kind of, I don't know if I want to be here, if I want to be out. And so what happened is, is they really guilt developed and a lot of shame developed. And then they felt like, well, you don't deserve me. I'm not a good person. And that's because they've still kept this relationship up, whether the affair was going on or not, they still had some relationship with the affair partner

And they felt guilty about that and they wanted in their marriage because they felt guilty about it themselves. And so they had this overwhelming guilt, I'm not a good person. You don't deserve me, am not good enough for you. And that's the betrayer saying this. And sometimes that comes from them having an ongoing relationship with the affair partner. Maybe it's morphed into a friendship and even that is not healthy. And so that keeps them as time goes on, just feeling like I'm not good enough. I can't do this. You don't deserve me. And in that's really because in part they haven't ended the affair

Morgan:

And they're saying, you don't deserve me. You don't deserve what I'm doing to you. It's not so much you don't deserve me.

Brad:

No, it's not like that at all. Yeah. It's like it's really coming from a place of shame. I'm a bad person

Morgan:

And I've done so many bad things to you. I've

Brad:

Heard even in their spouse is saying, I forgive you. I want to be with you. It comes from that and that happens. And then the other is obviously you can't rebuild trust. I still see you with this person. I still see them emailing you stuff related to work or this or that. And some of you listening to this are just probably flabbergasted thinking, oh my gosh, this happens. Some people, they try to minimize the affair. And

Morgan:

So because rather it disappear than actually handle it or deal with it.

Brad:

Yeah, actually handle it or deal with it. And so there's things like that. There are things like that that happen that have to be clearly dealt with, and we're going to get into that in a second. But you have to cut off the affair so that you as a couple, you and your spouse can move forward in the healing process, rebuild your relationship. And here's the kicker. The involved spouse must cut off all intimate relations with the affair partner. And occasionally people work with the affair partner and they find themselves, you work with this person. So you have to. And in situations like that where you work with them, it's hard to get away. It's hard to get away. But here's one of the things too though, is if that's the situation you're in, you everything, you must not discuss anything personal with them. And you must do

Morgan:

Everything you can to get away from them if you possibly can.

Brad:

Yeah, I would recommend that everything, but you got to keep it business if that's it. And you need to let your spouse know what's going on, they're going to be asking you probably, but you need to let 'em know. And so with that, Morgan, let's get into

Morgan:

The rules for separating from the affair partner, how to do it basically.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

You want to start with the first one?

Brad:

Yeah. The first is allow the betrayed spouse to participate in the severance. And here's why that's important. Allowing the betrayed spouse to have a say in how it is done will help that person find closure as well. Also because the affair involved secrecy, this moment of truth is refreshing. It's important to remember and reinforce that couples are team.

Brad:

Here's the kicker with this though, is I have seen people, they come into my office and say, I ended the affair, but their spouse didn't participate in the severance. They have no idea.

And this person may have, and here's the thing, when you're in an affair, obviously you're lying. You're being dishonest about what's happening, what's going on, and your spouse doesn't know what to believe. And so anything that you say or do, if you say anything like, oh, I did it already, or I told her this or that or told him this or that, they don't know.

Morgan:

There's no

Brad:

Way them knowing. And the idea with this is one of the things is it creates safety. So you really need to let them participate in this. That doesn't mean that they need to write the email for you. That doesn't mean they need to do it for you. That just means if you're going to do it over the phone, you need to do it yourself. Call them over the phone and use your own words and talk to 'em. Your spouse doesn't need to say, oh, John says it's over, so quit calling him. That's not going to work. That doesn't create any safety for them, and it doesn't send the clear message to the affair partner that it's over. And so you have to do it.

Morgan:

They just might be on the other line maybe listening in or standing there, or they might say, well, you really need to tell 'em like this instead of that, because to me, this sounds more like you're cutting it off

Brad:

Versus

Morgan:

I'm doing it for the kids or whatever.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. The second one is make it a clear absolute severance. And so as, as the person who had the affair, there are plenty of ways or a number of ways to separate from the affair partner. And when you do this, you should not leave any glimmer of hope that you are still open to an affair. You have to show them, look, I'm not interested in you. I love my spouse. I want to be with my spouse. I'm doing this because I want to be there

Morgan:

And what we were doing is wrong and I will not be doing it ever again with you or anyone else.

Brad:

And so you have to have this certainty. I am certain about this, and that's expressed through tone of voice, body language and your word choice, the choice of words that you use. Do

Morgan:

Not call me ever again.

Brad:

Yeah, I am done. Do not call me again. I love my wife, I love my husband. And so it has to be with clear severance. And here's why this is so important, why you have to make this clear, why it has to come from the person who had the affair is many times as affairs grow and mature, these things can last not just months, but sometimes a couple of years, sometimes even longer than that. And people feel like they're genuinely in love with this other person. And you may be done, but that other person isn't done yet. And

Morgan:

The betrayer,

Brad:

Well, the affair partner, they're not done yet. And so you have to let them know, look, we are done. There's no us anymore. There's no future. All the things that we talked about, us leaving our spouses to be with each other, that's not going to happen anymore. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be with you. You have to get to that level, not necessarily being cruel. You want to do, be short of being cruel, but you want to be forceful. You want to let 'em know that you're certain about you being

Morgan:

Done. And that leads us to the third one. Do not be cordial or kind when severing the relationship. This should not be a friendly conversation. You don't want to be cruel, but we believe the colder and more absolute the better. In fact, it's cruel to the fair partner if there's even a glimmer of hope that this will ever happen again. So more importantly, it's crucial. Obviously, more importantly, it's crucial to the betrayed spouse, your spouse. So they're not led to believe that unfaithfulness will occur at any point in the future. So yeah, you don't want to be like, well, I don't want to hurt your feelings and I don't want you to feel bad, so good luck to you. No, I'm sorry. This is not ever happening again, right? So don't call me.

Brad:

Yeah. And yeah, it needs to be very, very black and white. I'm done to the point, you're not kind. You're not friendly when you do this. And if you have to work with a person, maybe you're professional, but you're not kind and friendly. You're not sitting around the water cooler anymore. You're not going on lunch breaks,

Morgan:

Obviously, right? You're changing habits. Changing patterns too.

Brad:

Yeah. You're not sending any mixed signals. Sometimes people when just being kind, sometimes that can be interpreted as being flirty or that you have an interest. And so you have to be really, really careful. You're not just being kind that can send the message. I'm still open to you that can send the message of being flirty, that kind of thing. I'm interested. You can't do that. Now when you end this, the fourth part of this is when you do this, you're doing it for love. It's important not to tell the affair partner. The relationship is ending. Our affair is ending for the kids

Brad:

Because of my kids or because I want them to grow up with mom and dad together or because of the commitment you made or out of duty to the family, things like that. Instead, it needs to be because you are emphasizing the love you feel for your spouse,

Morgan:

Right? So definitely it's about you and your spouse that you love your spouse, you want to reconnect with your spouse and that there's no room at all for them in any of that. It's not because they're making me or anything

Brad:

Like that. And also you could emphasize that, look, this was a complete and total mistake. Also using specific language such as Never contact me again. I do not want to talk to you, or I do not want any sort of intimate relationship with you ever again. Things like that, phrases like that. You never contact me again. I don't want to talk to you again. I don't want any sort of intimate relationship or contact,

Brad:

Things Like that. It sends a clear message that I am done

Morgan:

And repeat yourself. You have to stand your ground. Sometimes they might try to remind you of what this or that send you a text or something, got to hold your ground there and you've got to include your spouse. So if they ever did contact you again, maybe next week or next month, next year, whatever, you're completely open and honest. We've talked about that being very honest and forthright.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right. I would say, I don't know what the exact percentages are, but I would say there is a good chance that the affair partner is going to contact you again after you try this. And it's more testing for them. This was an affair as well. This was, or a relationship as well. And maybe they loved you, and so there's a good chance that they're going to try to contact you again. If that happens, you have to let your spouse know about it. Because what will happen is your spouse is probably going to find out, and if you don't tell 'em you're going to be in deeper water and the walls are going to go up, it's going to be harder to rebuild. This going to be less trust, transparency and honesty are the best, especially with this.

Morgan:

So it's like doing the opposite of what you're doing in the secrecy of,

Brad:

Oh yeah, that's a great way to look at it. You're really doing the opposite of how you were in the affair. In the affair. You were very secretive. You were very conniving. You were very dishonest. There was no transparency. Now that you're in a rebuilding phase, you have to be transparent. You have to shine light in the darkness. You have to be honest. You have to expose these secrets that rebuilds this. Now, part of this though is this other person needs to get it. No, in certain terms, you are done. And it has to come from a place of I love my wife. I am with this person. I love my husband. I am choosing to be with him. You are a mistake. And that's where it needs to come from. And here's the other thing I want to emphasize. This is at some point there is a good chance that the affair partner is going to try to make contact. Again, be transparent, be honest. It may cause a ripple effect just because your spouse is going to feel like, gosh, this person's really obsessed with my spouse. But either way, they're probably going to find out and it's going to help rebuild trust because you're bringing that information to them. They're going to see that you're trying, that. You're being honest and transparent. And so that's really important.

Morgan:

And it's just very important to also realize sometimes the out affair partner does seek you out. Sometimes they do have a part to play in this whole affair, and

Brad:

Yeah, they do. And let me share a story. Morgan,

We had a couple by the time they came in, maybe it was about 18 months into the affair, and this was somebody who had moved out, separated, moved out back in several times when I had worked with them, they had gotten to a place where the affair was ended, the marriage was being rebuilt. They both felt like they were really moving better, and the husband worked with her, but I was able to only see her briefly, and he was able to, he had a job where he could do certain things and work out of the office. And one day he had

Morgan:

Work out of the office, office,

Brad:

Home office. He was able to work from

Morgan:

Home.

Brad:

And what I meant to say is he wasn't always in the office, so he was able to work from home. He was doing that. And one day he had to go into the office and he saw this woman and just kind of made eye contact with her, just saw her and then he's back into it again. And then they spent 18 months of trying to get to this place of ending it. And just seeing her one time caused him to

Morgan:

Flip a switch and go back,

Brad:

Flip a switch and go back. Oh, man. And we talked about Limerence before, and I'll just briefly describe it this way. Limerence is, it's kind of romantic love, but more of an addiction to a person where they're like an object and it's an obsession. And that's kind of how he felt about this woman. And he was trying to end. It did really well. The marriage was working moving forward. They were growing together. Trust was being rebuilt. He encounters this, and then they're back into that whole cat and mouse scam again, and it's really devastating. So you have to take this seriously.

Brad:

You don't know where you think you might be. Look, you think you're strong enough to do this, but you're probably not really strong. You weren't strong enough to keep an affair from happening the first time. I know right now this is an emotional place for you. There's a lot of guilt as the betrayer, but you got to really take this seriously. You can't minimize this, and you've got to be very, very careful, and you can't underestimate just where that other person's at. So you have to take this seriously that I've got to end this. I've got to have clear boundaries. I've got to know in certain terms, let them know from my heart that I want to be with my spouse because I love them and I do not want to be with you. You are a mistake.

Morgan:

And it's kind of like going back just a tad bit about limerence. It's like an addiction, very much like an alcoholic. You can't just have one beer all of a sudden that takes you back to your addiction. So it's very important to realize that some, maybe you may have to just cut it off completely depends on you. But the fifth one, right? That's what we're on.

Brad:

Yeah, go ahead, Morgan.

Morgan:

It's don't look back. So basically don't look back. It's important to make a clean break. Sympathizing with the affair partner, trying to soften the significance of the conversation or implying any possibility of a future friendship confuses the affair partner, and it will open the door to more trouble. If your spouse is involved in helping you cut this off, they're going to hear this tone of voice. They're going to hear what you're saying. They're going to hear how you're

Brad:

Saying. They're going to hear what we're telling you to do,

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So they're going to hold you to it.

Morgan:

And that's good because it's helpful. It's going to help you. It's going to help your relationship. It's going to really ultimately do what's best for you in the future. And it's natural for a previously involved spouse to want to check up on the affair partner. But it's important to resist the temptation because a lot of times these relationships, they weren't just fly by night. I mean, these are things that happen over a long period of time sometimes, and so sometimes you want to check up on that person.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, yeah, everybody's curious. You're curious about people that you dated in the past and things like that, but here's the kicker. You had an affair with this Person.

Brad:

Yeah, you had an affair with this person. This is, if you're listening to this and you're working through this, you know how this can destroy your marriage very, very quickly. You don't look back. Block this person on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, other social media. Get this person completely out of your life. It's worth it. Yeah, it's not worth it, and you don't know what it can do. That person again, but it's hurting your spouse as well. You don't know if it's going to trigger something in you where you want to go be with that person again, but it's also not helping rebuild trust for your spouse. The next principle is there should be complete openness and honesty from now on. There should be no more secrecy between the two spouses, between you and your spouse as the betrayer. You must decide to volunteer any communication that may happen between you and your affair partner before being asked to do so.

Morgan:

Oh, that's

Brad:

Key. Yeah, that's really important. That includes text messages, face-to-face interaction, emails or anything else. It is important to avoid any communication with your affair partner, but if or when communication inevitably happens, the betrayer must be quick to share it with his or her spouse. Do not underestimate how helpful this will be if you do this. This will quickly help you guys rebuild things, and so don't underestimate how helpful that can be.

Morgan:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Just being completely open and honest, man, it goes so far, so far. So yes, definitely volunteer that information before you're asked. But what about the next one? Right? We talked about maintaining a safe place, Brad, what is that? How do you maintain a safe place?

Brad:

Well, this is where the hurting spouse, the spouse, he's been betrayed, enters the process. It is very important for betrayed spouses to create an environment that encourages complete honesty. This means that when the spouse comes to them and tells them about communication with the affair partner

Brad:

It's crucial to maintain composure. So as a spouse who's been betrayed, you have to help them feel safe to talk about this because most betrayers don't want to talk about this because they feel like they already feel guilty enough and they don't want to make you hurt anymore.

Brad:

So if you are overreacting, you may be reacting, but your spouse will feel like you're overreacting. This is hurting you. I don't see the point of answering these questions. It's just making it worse. You have to help them feel safe in a sense to be able to talk to you

Morgan:

So that when or if they do get communication from a fair partner, that they know that if they're going to come to you, that you're going to not blow up. You're going to receive it with grace. You may not feel comfortable, but thanking them. Hey, thanks for being open. Thanks for being honest. I appreciate you coming and telling me this. It makes me feel a lot more secure. It makes me feel like you we're really going to make it

And you really can make it, and you really will if you are open and honest and cut that person off. And however they ended up with that story you just told about the guy who went back to work after working from home and just one look at that person kind of sent 'em back to their addiction. I mean, if he were to have just turned around, maybe even got out of there as soon as he could and went home to his wife and said, Hey, I accidentally looked at her. We were in the hallway. This happened, this happened. And your spouse can be that source of healing and can be a safe place.

Brad:

And one of the things with this is those kinds of things grow because they're secret. It just adds fuel to the fire. But one of the things to realize is this is a necessary step that has to be done. You have to cut off this person and the betrayer has to do it. It's best if the betrayed spouse is a part of this process. They're able to listen in and it's best if you say, I'm doing it out of love. You're not being kind or cordial.

Brad:

You're being short of being cruel. You're letting them know you were a mistake. I love my wife. I love my husband. I'm going to be with them. You are a mistake. I don't want to talk to you again.

Morgan:

Right? What we did was wrong

Brad:

And you're done. There's no need to reminisce about the past. Say we had good times, things like that. You're not doing yourself any favors. In fact, what you're doing is you're leaving the door open that you're open,

Morgan:

And what we're really doing here, what we need to do is we need to break the pattern of secrecy and lies. We take a giant step in the direction of healing and turn towards your spouse because they're really going to help you. And if you are the betrayed spouse, you got to help your spouse feel comfortable. It's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's painful, but it's definitely, I mean, when your spouse is coming and turning and doing the opposite and being honest with you, it's really a step in the right direction and healing will come and the pain will subside over time, you say. Yeah,

Brad:

It'll get better. Thanks for listening to Healing Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It's not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 25: Brad's Favorite Topic - Events That Make Healing After An Affair Possible