Ep 91 - What the Unfaithful Want the Betrayed to Know About the Details of the Affair

When it comes to infidelity recovery, few conversations feel more loaded than “Tell me everything.”

If you are the betrayed partner, asking for details is not about punishment. It is about safety. It is about making sense of what shattered your reality. It is about trying to rebuild trust in a relationship that feels unstable. If you are the unfaithful partner, those same questions can feel terrifying.

In our work with couples navigating affair recovery, we hear something important beneath the silence, defensiveness, and avoidance. We hear fear. We hear shame. We hear panic about consequences. We hear people who know they caused deep betrayal trauma but feel overwhelmed by the weight of facing it fully.

Understanding this does not excuse the betrayal. It does not minimize the pain. But it does explain why conversations about the details of the affair so often break down.

Here are the most common things unfaithful partners say they wish the betrayed understood about why sharing details feels so hard.

1. I Am Scared the Truth Will Cost Me You

When you ask for details, my mind jumps straight to loss.

I fear you will leave. I fear this will be the final straw. I fear you will decide I am unsafe, unworthy, and not someone you can build a life with anymore. It is not just the relationship I am afraid of losing. It is our home. Our family. My place in your world. The future I already damaged.

2. I Am Scared the Truth Will Trigger Consequences I Cannot Control

I imagine the conversation exploding. I imagine panic flooding the room. I imagine saying something that creates images you cannot unsee. I worry the details will crush your confidence or deepen your pain.

And because I am afraid of making it worse, I freeze. I avoid. I delay. Not because you do not deserve answers, but because I am scared of what will happen when I give them.

3. I Am Afraid of a Second Discovery

Part of me fears you will find more anyway.

You will check old messages. Connect dots. Notice inconsistencies. Discover something I did not say clearly. The idea of losing you twice feels unbearable. That fear tempts me to manage the timeline and control the story instead of fully surrendering to honesty. But real healing after infidelity cannot be built on managing consequences. It can only be built on complete honesty, ownership, and accountability.

4. Talking About the Affair Damages How I See Myself

When you ask for details, I have to face a version of myself I deeply regret.

It forces me to confront choices that do not align with who I want to be. That brings intense shame. Revisiting the affair in my mind brings up guilt, fear, and unresolved pain. Sometimes it feels crushing. Avoiding the conversation does not make it disappear, but in the moment, it feels like survival.

5. Your Questions Can Feel Like Attacks, Even When They Are Not

Even when you ask calmly, my shame can turn your questions into judgment in my mind. I know that is not always your intention. But internally, I feel exposed and condemned.

When I get defensive or shut down, it is often because I feel overwhelmed, not because I do not care about your healing.

6. Avoiding the Conversation Feels Safer in the Moment

Silence lowers my shame temporarily.

If we are not talking about what I did, I do not have to sit in the weight of it. We are not in conflict. We are not in pain in that exact moment. But I am learning that my silence increases your anxiety, confusion, and trauma. What feels safer to me in the short term deepens your suffering in the long term.

7. I Did Not Always Understand Why Details Matter

At first, I believed your questions were about punishing me.

I did not understand that details help you process betrayal trauma. That without answers, your mind fills in the blanks with worst case scenarios. That clarity helps restore stability and rebuild trust after infidelity.

I am beginning to see that without transparency, you stay stuck.

8. When I Am Honest and See Your Reaction, I Lose Hope

When you react with anger or deep pain, I sometimes think, “You cannot handle this.”

I fear that the more you know, the less chance we have. I fear honesty will guarantee the end. Even though I know the affair was wrong, it can feel wrong to relive it with you if your reactions make me believe we are not going to survive it.

9. I Struggle With Conflict

I hate conflict.

Even when your hurt is justified, any expression of disappointment can cause me to shut down. I feel closest to you when we are not talking about heavy issues. That does not mean the conversation is not necessary. It means I lack the skills and emotional capacity I need to stay present in it.

10. I Told Myself I Was Protecting You

This is hard to admit.

Sometimes I convinced myself that withholding details was caring. That the full truth would hurt you beyond repair. That what you do not know cannot hurt you. From my perspective, hiding the most painful parts felt protective.

But I am learning that the cover up often causes more damage than the original betrayal. Rebuilding trust requires truth, not protection through secrecy.

11. I Am Afraid Nothing I Say Will Ever Be Enough

Sometimes I hold back because I fear there will always be another question.

Another detail. Another angle. Another layer.

I worry I will never be able to repair the damage no matter how honest I am. That fear makes me feel defeated before I even begin.

12. I Am Afraid the Details Will Hurt You Even More

Some details feel dangerous.

I worry about creating mental images that will stay with you. I fear intensifying your trauma.

That fear makes me hesitate, even when I know you are asking because you need clarity to heal.

13. I Do Not Know What the Right Amount of Detail Is

Too little feels like hiding.

Too much feels like cruelty.

I struggle to know where the line is. That uncertainty creates paralysis.

14. I Am Afraid You Will Only See Me as My Worst Mistake

When we talk about the affair, I worry it will define me forever.

That when you look at me, you will only see betrayal. That I will never again be seen as the partner you once loved.

That fear can make vulnerability feel unbearable.

15. I Have Not Seen the Conversations Help Yet

You say talking about the affair helps you heal.

From my perspective, I see tears, anger, sleepless nights, and emotional flooding. It looks like things are getting worse, not better.

It can be hard to trust a process when I do not immediately see progress.

16. I Am Afraid Honesty Will Lead to Immediate Consequences

Sometimes I hesitate because I am afraid full disclosure will trigger decisions I am not ready for.

Separation. Boundaries. Exposure. Loss.

That fear makes me crave safety before transparency, even though I know safety is built through transparency.

17. I Do Not Always Trust My Memory

Some parts of that time feel blurry.

Stress, compartmentalization, and avoidance affect memory. I worry about getting details wrong and being accused of lying again.

That fear can make me quiet instead of collaborative.

18. We Need Structure for These Conversations

When difficult questions come late at night or in the middle of a good day, I feel emotionally depleted.

I know you may struggle to sleep without answers. I know the questions feel urgent.

But having a structured approach to affair disclosure and recovery would help me show up more consistently and safely.

19. I Am Afraid of Saying the Wrong Thing

One wrong word.

One poorly phrased sentence.

One detail delivered without enough care.

I worry it could undo progress we have made in rebuilding trust. So sometimes I freeze instead of risk making it worse.

20. I Do Not Always Fully Understand My Why

When you ask why, I may not have a clean answer.

Some of my choices do not make sense to me either. I am still unpacking my own brokenness, unmet needs, coping patterns, and avoidance.

Silence does not always mean deception. Sometimes it means I am still doing the work of self awareness.

(00:02):

Hi, I'm Brad Robinson, a licensed marriage and family therapist with Healing Broken Trust. Morgan's not going to be able to join me today because she is out sick. Last time I talked about why the trade partner usually struggles without getting answers. And today I want to get into part two of that. So today we're going to get into why do the unfaithful struggle to answer questions about their affair? So this is going to be part two, a continuum of our last episode. When I listen to people who've been unfaithful, both at our workshops and the stories shared by others, I hear a lot of fear beneath the silence. Many say that giving details feels dangerous, overwhelming, or shame-filled. They worry the truth will be used against them. And if they worry that they say the wrong thing, that the details will cause more damage than healing.

(00:49):

Some shut down, some get angry, some delay, some minimize, some avoid the conversation altogether. It's not always because they don't care though. That's the important piece. But because they feel exposed, they feel scared, and they feel unsure of how to face the consequences of their choices. Understanding this doesn't excuse the betrayal or the harm caused, but it does help explain why these conversations break down so easily. What follows are the most common and faithful ... Or what follows what I'm about to get into are the things that I hear most commonly from unfaithful partners who say of what they say they wish the betrayed understood.

(01:30):

And why the details and why sharing the details of the affair is so difficult for them. So the first thing I hear people say, and this is one of the most common ones, is I'm afraid the truth will cost me you. When you ask for details, my mind jumps straight to loss. I think you'll leave. I think you'll be done. And this will be the final straw. I fear that you won't just be hurt. I fear that you'll decide I'm unsafe. I'm unworthy. And not someone that you can build a life with anymore. And I'm not only afraid of losing the relationship, I'm afraid of losing everything connected to it. Our home, our family, my place in your world, and the future I already damaged. So the second thing I hear often from unfaithful partners that they want the betrayed to know about the details of their affair is they would say, "I'm scared the truth will trigger consequences I can't control." I imagine the conversation turning into a big blow up.

(02:23):

Fights that get ugly, panic that floods the room, words that I can't take back. I'm afraid the details will become pictures that you can't unsee. There's more pain that I've caused you that I can't undo, and then I'll begin to put comparisons and fear into your mind that just crushes your self-esteem. And I'm scared of making it worse. So I shut down, I avoid, I withdraw, and ultimately I don't give you what you need. The third thing that I hear from unfaithful partners about why giving the details are so scary for them is they would say, "I'm scared that you'll discover everything anyway, and then I'll just end up losing you all over again. I'll lose you twice. I lost you because of the affair I did and the pain that you're now in, and then you're going to hear all this and it's just going to be too much." So part of me fears that no matter what I admit, you're going to end up checking it out, you're going to research, you're going to connect the dots, you're going to find old messages, you're going to notice contradictions in my story.

(03:18):

I'm terrified of that additional discovery where you realize there was more and I can't prove what I'm saying and it confirms every fear that you already have about me. The fear makes me want to control the timeline and the story. I haven't learned to trust a process yet that real healing can be built on managing consequences, that it cannot be built on managing consequences. It can only be built on full honesty, responsibility in showing up when showing up even when I'm scared.

(03:53):

The fourth thing that the average person would say who's been unfaithful is that giving you details hurts how I see myself. It makes it more real. It's not just, "Oh, I had this affair that I kept hidden in secret, but it hurts how I see myself. It causes me to really realize it was real and I was not in control like I thought I was. I thought I could hide. I thought I could minimize this. I thought I could pretend that you would never find out. " So giving you details hurts how I see myself. I now see myself through the lens of shame and I begin to see myself feeling like I'm a monster, that I deserve the punishment.

(04:35):

Excuse me. I begin to feel I deserve the pain. I deserve the punishment. I deserve all of those things. And when that happens, it just causes me to just hate myself even more. The fifth thing that the average person who strays would say about the details of their affair and specifically why they struggle to be honest, is that the questions can feel like attacks even when they're not. Even when you think you're not attacking me, what I hear is attacks. So even when you ask calmly, my shame can make your questions feel like judgment or punishment that you're trying to punish me. I know that's not what you mean, but that's how it lands sometimes. So when I shut down or get defensive, it's often because I feel exposed and condemned, not because I don't care. I just feel attacked. I feel like I'm beat up in this process.

(05:28):

The sixth thing that the average person would say on why they struggle to answer those questions and give full details is they would say that avoiding your questions feels safer to me, even though it hurts you. It feels like it's safe to me. It's, yes, I realize it hurts you, that's what you tell me, but it feels safer in the moment because I'm not wrestling with shame. I'm not having to confront what I did. It helps me feel like maybe we can just ignore this and get over it, but I'm slowly learning that silence on my end is actually making it worse for you. I see that when I'm quiet, it actually just increases your confusion, fear and pain that you feel. Even when I'm just trying to survive on my end, you're trying to survive by asking, by digging, which I guess makes sense.

(06:19):

If I were in your shoes, I would not want to know those things. So when you ask me that, I feel like it's wrong to answer these questions like I'm only going to hurt you more. It feels safer to not discuss this. I'm slowly learning that you see it as me continuing to choose the affair partner because you sense that when I'm not fully honest and transparent, it just causes you to feel like I'm choosing that person again and I'm not choosing you. I'm slowly learning that when I'm honest, that's when you feel like I'm choosing you and I'm not choosing the affair partner. And that is really difficult for me to wrap my head around. The seventh thing that the average person who's been unfaithful would say on why they struggle to be open and honest is I don't always understand why details matter to you.

(07:11):

For a long time, I thought your questions were meant to shame or punish me. I didn't understand that you needed details to heal and make sense of what happened. I'm starting to see that without answers, you're stuck and can't move forward. One of the common things I've noticed among those who've been unfaithful is, and I'll get situations where the husband and the wife both were unfaithful, maybe at different times, but they both have been unfaithful. One will usually push for a lot of details. The other doesn't want to know anything. And that really shows up in their healing process because they're both betrayed. They're both dealing with infidelity. They both have been unfaithful to each other, but one will say, "I don't really need the details to heal." The other will say, "I need to go through this. " And the one who was betrayed, who doesn't feel like they need the details, struggles to be open and honest.

(07:59):

They're like, "Why do you need this? I'm not asking it of you. Can't you just do what I'm doing and just bury it, just compartmentalize, just pretend it didn't happen and just kind of move on? " So we have different approaches to this and some of this isn't always meant ... Obviously deception is a part of the process and it can be, but it's not always rooted in deception. Sometimes it's just like, "I don't think this is good for you. I don't need it myself. I don't want to give it to you because I think it's actually going to hurt you more." Sometimes people view it in that lens. They feel like it's more common sense. I don't want to do that to you. But what we know from research is that when people have been betrayed and they need answers, they become hypervigilant and they need answers.

(08:42):

They really need it to get closure. They really need it to be able to move forward. There's a lot of research in this and some people have different styles, different needs and not everybody needs to go through the details, but when people really need that, they get stuck without it. And if I try to give you what I need and it's not really what you're asking for, you're going to end up hurt feeling hurt by me. You're going to end up feeling more ashamed, more punishment, more betrayal from me. And that's usually the kind of the negative cycle that couples get into. And that's why we're talking about this today. The seventh thing that the average person who's been unfaithful would say is, "I didn't always understand why those details matter to you. That's why I get stuck in this. I don't really understand why they matter to you.

(09:32):

So for a long time, I thought your questions were meant to punish or shame me. I didn't understand that you needed those things to be able to move forward." The eighth thing they would say is that when I'm honest and then I see your reaction, I think you can't handle the truth. So I am honest. I'm trying to give you what you're asking for and then I see the reaction I get. It just makes me think like, I can't give you the truth. I think if you know too much, you'll leave or you'll never want to forgive me. You'll never be able to actually trust me again. When you're angry, I lose hope that will make it. I think being honest actually will cause me to lose you. And I know my infidelity was wrong, but it also seems wrong to tell you the full story.

(10:11):

I think I'm actually just making it worse for you. The ninth thing that the average person who's been unfaithful would say on why they struggle to give details of their affair is that when you get upset with me, it feels like you're angry with me and I can't handle the conflict. I know it's reasonable for you to be hurt, disappointed and confused by any slight expression or disappointment from you. But what I did, I know it's reasonable for you to feel hurt and disappointed about what I did to you, but when I sense that you're disappointed or sad or upset with me in the slightest, it actually causes me to shut down. I hate conflict. I actually feel closest to you when we're not talking about anything serious. You can see the real dilemma there. A lot of people who've been unfaithful feel that way, I just described.

(11:00):

I feel closest to you when there's peace, we're getting along, we're not talking about anything serious, but for the average person who's been betrayed, they need to really understand what's going on and what happened so they can determine what their future is going to look like. And for people who've been unfaithful, if they are prioritizing their sense of peace and their sense of safety, they still look like they're choosing themselves over their spouse and their marriage. Like you've hurt me and you're not even going to be honest with me, you hurt me and you're not even going to share with me what's going on. It looks like we're still choosing ourselves over our spouse. It looks like some would say you're still choosing the affair partner because you're not being honest with me. You're not giving me what I need. So usually though, the average person who strays, they look at it like, "I can't handle the conflict.

(11:52):

I get overwhelmed.

(11:56):

I'm starting to have physical symptoms. I'm not sleeping well." So I can't go there. I can't handle the amount of stress this is creating for me. Again, the person who's been betrayed is like, "Welcome to the club. You're experiencing everything I've been experiencing. I'm not sleeping. I'm not eating. I'm totally stressed." So that's a really easy area for people to get stuck in. The next thing that the average person who strays would say on why they struggle to be honest is that they view not being honest as a way of caring. They would say, "I know it's backwards thinking to you, but I think the full truth will hurt you and cause you to never heal. I've allowed in the past to protect you. I haven't lied to you to make you feel betrayed again. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I've lied to keep you from having to know the messy, gory parts of what I've done so what you don't know doesn't end up hurting you.

(12:53):

I believe what you don't know won't hurt you, but you keep telling me it's hard to trust, but you keep telling me that it's hard to trust that what you don't know won't hurt you and that my coverup is worse. From my perspective, that's just hard to believe. So from my perspective, it's hard to believe that what you don't know is actually what hurts you and that the cover up and me protecting you makes it worse. From my perspective, I really feel like if I'm totally open, that's going to destroy you. I haven't quite learned yet and I haven't quite trusted the process that if I'm open and honest, it will cause you to feel better. I haven't learned that yet because my experience has been usually the opposite. You get upset, you ask more questions, you threaten to leave, you kind of doubt why are you even trying to reconcile, that kind of thing.

(13:45):

The 11th thing that the average person who's been unfaithful would say on why they struggle, to be honest, about the details of their affair is that I'm afraid that no matter what I say, it will never be enough. Sometimes I hold back because I'm scared that even if I answer everything, you'll still need more. I worry there will always be another question, another detail, and that I'll never be able to make things better no matter how honest I am. That's a common question or common concern, I mean, that the average person who's been unfaithful has. It's just never going to be enough. The 12th thing that the average person who strays has in common is I'm scared the details will hurt you even more. Some details feel dangerous to share because I'm afraid they will cause you more pain. I don't want to add new images or thoughts that might stay with you forever.

(14:32):

That fear makes me hesitate to share the details of what you're asking. So it's scary to give you those kinds of details. It's just going to hurt you more.

(14:41):

The 13th thing they would say is I don't always know how much detail is the right amount. I struggle to know what to share and what not to share. I'm afraid of saying too little and being accused of hiding or saying too much and causing more damage. That uncertainty makes me hesitate. I've had times where you've wanted me to be more open and transparent and I've tried to do that and it felt like it was too much, like you didn't actually want me to be that honest. And I've had times where I thought I was being fully transparent and fully honest, and it didn't come across like I was. So I'm confused on what's the right amount to give. The next thing that the average person would stray, the next thing the average person who has strayed would say on why giving the details are difficult for them is they say," I'm afraid you'll only see me as my worst mistake.

(15:30):

So when I talk about the affair, I worry that this will become the only thing that you'll see when you look at me. I'm afraid I'll be forever defined by what I did, and that fear makes it hard to open up. I'm afraid that you will only see me as this situation, my worst mistake.

(15:49):

"The 15th thing that the average person who has strayed would say on why giving the details of the affair is difficult because they would say ... This is what they would say. "You say talking about the affair and answering your questions helps you, but I haven't seen it help you. I've only seen it make things worse." So the average person who strays would say, "I feel like answering this has only made things worse. I felt like we were better before we got into disclosure, before you started asking for full disclosure." On the flip side, the average person who's been betrayed would say, "This actually does help me, but what has made it worse is when you've lied to me, the additional trickle truth, like these additional disclosures, additional revelation of new information, that is what has hurt me. So I need you to really be open and honest with me.

(16:41):

" The next thing that the average person who has been unfaithful would say is, "I don't always trust myself to remember things clearly. Some parts of that time feel blurry to me. I feel like I've forgotten some details of what you want to know. I'm afraid of saying something wrong or inconsistent and making things worse." That kind of fear of what's going to happen if I make it worse just keeps me quiet. The next thing that the average person who's broken trust and been unfaithful would say is that I think having an organized approach to talking about this would actually help me when we're having a good day and then get right into this at night. It wears me down. I know you're not sleeping and it helps you at night if I talk to you about this, but we need a more structured approach to answering your questions.

(17:27):

That's part of what we've tried to provide for people at our Healing Broken Trust workshops and our program is to help you have a structured approach on how to go about this. If that's something you're interested in, please reach out to us at healingbrokentrust.com. We'd love to help you in any way that we can.

(17:46):

And then the average person who's been unfaithful would say, "I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing and just making it worse." That's pretty much the theme. I'm going to make this worse. I'm just going to not help you feel better and it's just going to lead to us not being there. I'm afraid of the consequences. I'm afraid of my shame. I just feel like it's just going to make things worse. And finally, the thing the average person who's been unfaithful would say is, "I don't always know how to explain my choices. Some of my actions don't make sense to me either. When you ask why, I may struggle because I'm still trying to understand myself what I did. My silence, my avoidance on my end doesn't mean I'm hiding. It does mean I don't have clear answers yet, and I don't know how to give that to you.

(18:32):

I don't know how to do this process in a way that actually is helpful for you and causes you to feel better." Those are a handful of things of what the average person who's been unfaithful would say. Thank you for listening today. This is a continuation of the last week's episode where I got into why the betrayed struggle without details. And if you listen to both of these episodes back to back, it really can help you understand the natural friction that is there because usually the average person who's been betrayed, about 70% of them want to know everything. About 20% want to know a great deal, 10% don't want to know anything. And what I've tried to describe to you today is pretty much the struggle of somebody who has been unfaithful and why they struggle. They struggle with how much is too much. Yeah, you caught me in one affair, but there's actually a handful of others and some of these may even go back to the very beginning.

(19:32):

How much is too much? You're asking me to be honest about what happened and you asked me if there are others. Is that what I need? Do I need to be open and honest? Isn't that going to destroy you? Is that going to cause you to feel like our whole marriage was a lie? So I don't know how to be honest in this without losing you. Yes, I was stupid with the affair. I thought I would never get caught. I never wanted to get found out. I didn't think it was going to destroy you because I thought I could keep it under wraps. I thought nobody would ever find out. But now that you have, I realize I love you and I don't want to lose you. I realize now that you're the most important thing to me and I shouldn't have ever treated you this way.

(20:10):

That's kind of the general feeling that the typical person who strays has. Obviously there's going to be exceptions to that. Obviously there's going to be other people who would say things differently. So I would encourage you to listen to this together, to share this episode, listen to it together, discuss it with each other, and join us at one of our workshops. Join our program. We would love to help you in any capacity. You don't have to do this alone. There is hope. You can make it through this. You need structure, you need guidance, you need to get a comprehensive plan. And sometimes when we go to couples therapy, which is good and we should do it, it lacks structure. It lacks a comprehensive plan. It's not holistic. It doesn't address all the concerns that need to be addressed. And that's what we've attempted to do in our Healing Broken Trust program.

(20:58):

We want to help you in any way that we can. And I will see you next time. If you're watching, please like, subscribe. If you're listening, please leave us a positive review. Let us know you're listening as well. And I look forward to seeing you guys next time. Thank you.

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Ep 86 - When the Unfaithful Sees the Affair Partner in a Positive Light

Transcript:

Morgan (00:03):

Hi, welcome to Healing Broken Trust for Brad and Morgan Robinson, and we have a great show for you today. Actually, we have a listener question that we want to discuss today. The listener says, "My husband said that the only thing that he feels bad about his two-year affair is hurting me. He's not sorry that he found happiness with his affair partner. And I really want to reconcile, but if he will always see his affair partner in a good light, I cannot reconcile." So they would appreciate any insight. And one of the biggest emotional roadblocks to healing broken trust after an affair is something that's known as affair nostalgia. And when the unfaithful partner still holds the affair in a positive light, that can be really hard. So we're going to talk about that, Brad.

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Brad (00:53):

Yeah. And that's basically what a fair nostalgia is. It's when the unfaithful partner is held in a positive light. People will talk about, "It meant so much to me. It was so great. I love it. " They're not really communicating any sort of remorse or regret. They're not portraying that they're sorry. Maybe I'm sorry I got caught, but they're not really warm or empathetic, that kind of thing.

Morgan (01:21):

They don't regret. It's almost like they don't have any regret for having the affair.

Brad (01:24):

Yeah. And an example of this could ... There's a lot of different examples of this. One is like the listener question. The affair has been over. He had this two-year affair. It's over, but they're not really even sorry. That could be one because they're still idolizing the affair. Another could be like anytime they talk about the affair partner, they talk about how beautiful the person was or handsome they were. It's like, "Man, this person was so handsome, so beautiful." And it's like, "Oh my gosh, just cut me in a million pieces. I don't need to hear that.

Morgan (01:56):

" Yeah. I'm trying to reconcile.

Brad (01:57):

Yeah. And messages like that, what they create is they really cause people to feel like, "Okay, how serious are you about us?" Because the core need for somebody who's been betrayed is they want to feel chosen after being betrayed. It's like, "Okay, I was replaced. Now I need to know that I'm chosen." And when affair and nostalgia is there, where people have this kind of rosy picture of the affair, that can really make reconciliation hard for the betrayed because healing requires that both of us get on the same page. We got to get the truth out there. I need to know you're sorry, and I need to see a real desire to rebuild something new together with us and not just repair the damage that happened for appearance's sake about what other people think. It's got to be about us and we've got to really roll up our sleeves.

Morgan (02:53):

Well, it also seems very clear and obvious that you can't have a mind for two people, right? It's a heart for two people. It's me only because I'm your beloved. So yeah, it's absolutely a challenge that's hard.

Brad (03:08):

Yeah. Well, that's a good point because when somebody, they're communicating that they're emotionally split. When somebody who's having an affair only feels bad about hurting their spouse, but they don't regret the investment that it took away from their marriage and their family and into the affair, they can be emotionally split. And then that makes it harder to give those things that are needed back into the marriage after the affair.

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(03:34):

Usually what people will say who've been injured is they're going to say something like, "You know what? I'm not asking that much. I think this is reasonable what I'm asking for. If reconciliation is going to work, you have to be willing to do these things for me. I need you to take full responsibility. Don't be defensive. I need you to show empathy and remorse, not just for the pain that you caused me, but for the choices that you made. And I need you to let go of idealizing this affair partner." And what that means is I need you to work through those unresolved fantasies or unmet emotional needs that fuel this affair. And I need you to also reinvest emotionally back into our marriage and do that wholeheartedly, not just stay married on paper, but really rebuild something special.

New Speaker (04:17):

That's right.

Brad (04:18):

And this is kind of what else they would say for somebody who's been injured and on the receiving end of that kind of persistent rejection, because that's the other thing, Morgan, that's a part of this, is when the affair happened and then they kind of have a fair nostalgia, it's still rejecting. And so until that happens, somebody who's betrayed in this scenario is going to feel like reconciliation is going to be really hard for them. Even if they desire it and want it, they're going to get stuck in this painful negative cycle of doubt because they feel like, okay, you're still emotionally attached somehow, some way to the affair partner, and that does not create the safety I need.

New Speaker (04:55):

No. Right.

Brad (04:57):

So far we're talking about this from the perspective of the person who was betrayed. We're going to get a little bit, and we're going to explain that a little bit more, but then we're going to get deeper into the perspective of the person who has been unfaithful in how they see this and view this.

New Speaker (05:13):

Yeah.

Brad (05:13):

Do you want to get into kind of how the person who's been betrayed

Morgan (05:19):

Feels? Yeah, absolutely. So the first point would be, the person has strong feelings and really wants a relationship. So the would be lover, the person who likes someone, who doesn't like them back, right? And in a sense, this can go kind of two ways, right? You've got the elements of limerance, right? When someone is kind of pining over the affair partner or what the affair gave to them, they almost have this idealized view of that relationship and of that person. And so they don't have kind of probably a real look at that relationship because it's not true love. It's not real love. It's kind of an idealized perspective of the relationship. And so, but also the person wants, they want the other person to like them back and to choose them.

Brad (06:17):

Yeah. Ultimately they want to be chosen. Both people. Yeah. The affair, when you're in the affair, you're showing you're choosing the other person, you're not choosing me. And part of what people need after they've been betrayed is, "I need to know that you're choosing me for me, not for kids or money or other reasons." You're really here for me. And that's kind of what Morgan is saying is like, "I want this relationship to work, but I need to know that you're choosing me for me. " They want to be pursued. That's right. They see the effort that was put into the affair. They want to see that applied back to them. They want to be pursued as well. And so part of what they can feel is they feel like sad a lot and heartbroken. They feel embarrassed like, "Why am I still wanting this when you don't?

(07:02):

Is something wrong with me? " And then they obviously are going to feel angry about this because it's unfair. It's not what they signed up for. And then they're confused because they don't know what to do next. There's not these ... Nobody really knows what to do in these situations. Everybody thinks they know what they're going to do until it happens to them. And once it happens to us, it's like all bets are off. It's like,

(07:26):

"Okay, we're going to divorce if you ever cheat on me. "

Morgan (07:29):

Right. I hear that so many times.

Brad (07:31):

But when it happens, people don't really know how to work through that and approach that because it's so difficult. And back to your point that you made earlier, Morgan, is there's strong feelings that the person who's been betrayed has, they still want the relationship. The irony is they still want it. Yes, many times they do, but they also are afraid of the person. "I love you, but I'm also angry with you or I need you close by, but when you get close, they push you away. "It gets very confusing for the person who had the affair and that can fuel the affair and nostalgia because, gosh, I'm trying, but it looks like everything I'm doing is just leading to an argument all the time. And so it's like when we don't get along, it makes the affairs seem like it was greener pastures. Even though this person may have had their issues, maybe they weren't that great of a catch.

(08:28):

Yeah, it is something that's unfortunate and I shouldn't have done, but when we don't get along, that's when my nostalgia for the affair partner grows worse. I want that more.

Morgan (08:40):

Yeah. And it does take time for the remnants of the affair and all of that to be put away completely, right? So oftentimes a person has been in this limerance or this outside relationship for quite some time, right? So they've built up all of this kind of world inside of themselves, inside their mind, in their life, like this whole other world, right? And so they're having to dismantle that, right? And it has to be dismantled completely. And so there's going to be those remnants before they completely and fully reinvest in the relationship sometimes. So when you're hearing them say," Oh, the affair was wonderful or that person was wonderful. They shouldn't be saying that because that's detrimental, that's damaging, but when you're hearing that, but they're still with you and they're still wanting to work on the relationship, that's probably the remnants of that affair that is still being dismantled and put away and it does take some time, unfortunately, and it can be very painful,

Brad (09:49):

But

Morgan (09:50):

It's necessary work.

Brad (09:52):

Yeah. Yeah. And Morgan, part of what they can do, the person who's betrayed in these situations where

New Speaker (09:59):

Their

Brad (09:59):

Spouse who had the affair has this affair nostalgia is they tend to think about us. So they're looking for little subtle clues. They're looking for signs like, okay, they were warm today, they smiled at me today, we made love, they were planning a trip. They're looking for little things and they're reading between the lines because they're looking for hope. They want hope that you are thinking of me, that you have changed your mind about this other person.

Morgan (10:29):

Oh yes, from the betrayed partners perspective. Yeah.

Brad (10:32):

Yeah. They want these things, so they replay it. What can happen though is it leads to anxiety and fear. So they look for reassurance. So it bubbles up inside of them where they have all this anxiety and fear, this pressure is mounting inside of them and what can happen is that they then can approach their spouse in a critical way, demanding way, blaming way, which is understandable because it's like, "Okay, you had this affair, you've hurt me, you've destroyed me and now I'm supposed to be a doormat and just like tolerate this.

New Speaker (11:07):

"

Brad (11:08):

So all this boils up inside of them and it's hard to talk about these things in a vulnerable way where they can get reassurance and get clarity, but because they do it in a more critical, blaming, demanding way, that causes the person who had the affair to pull back

New Speaker (11:24):

And

Brad (11:25):

Then it causes them to like, "Oh my gosh, this is overwhelming. We can't make it. See, I knew you wouldn't forgive me.

New Speaker (11:31):

"

Brad (11:31):

And kind of can feed into underlying issues that they had prior to the affair

Morgan (11:36):

Happening,

Brad (11:36):

If there were any. And if that happens, that really causes them to, that can feed that affair and nostalgia. If we don't get along, that can feed this affair and nostalgia. So that's really scary. Yeah,

Morgan (11:51):

That's important.

Brad (11:52):

And it's not saying that to shame anybody or blame anybody, but it's good to be aware of these patterns that may be there.

Morgan (11:59):

Right, because it's almost like a mental, emotional escape, right? The affair is often an escape for someone, an emotional escape, escape from depression, escape from stress, escape from whatever it might have been that was difficult or challenging. And so when things naturally in a loving working relationship, a marriage, oftentimes when things don't look so relaxed, it can be a tendency, a habit, right? Because most of this is a habit, a habitual response, right? And so they go back to that habitual response of exiting emotionally, exiting mentally, and that takes them to kind of the romanticized version of that relationship. And so anyways-

Brad (12:52):

Yeah, Morgan, kind of like piggyback off on that, part of what the betrayed will do in the situation is to try to talk more,

(12:59):

Reach out more, spend time together. They're looking for reassurance. Obviously, we all want it in this kind of situation. They're going to ask for another chance, why not? Maybe they get really angry and say, "Screw it. We're done. No more." Those kinds of ... Maybe they want it, and then they kind of draw a line and say, "I don't want it. " And then they take that back. They withdraw the boundary when it seems like, "Okay, I'm not getting what I want. " They try to really keep the person close even when it can hurt really bad and then-

Morgan (13:27):

And we're still talking about the betrayed partner.

Brad (13:29):

Yeah, the betrayed partner can do those

Morgan (13:29):

Things.

Brad (13:31):

And part of what makes this hard is that there isn't a really clear rule book on how to act or what to say or what to do. So we feel really lost in these situations. And then if other people know about it, like what's going on, like we're separated or the affairs happened, but they're not really owning up to it after they've betrayed us. It's embarrassing. And this kind of feeds into people what people need who've been betrayed is they need clear answers. They need time, they need support, they need ways to heal their self-esteem and feelings after this. And again, like we've talked about before, they really need the betrayer to become a healer, that kind of thing.

Morgan (14:09):

Morgan,

Brad (14:10):

Do you want to get into part of what people who've been unfaithful in these scenarios think? Oh,

Morgan (14:15):

Sure. Kind

Brad (14:15):

Of the scenario, people who have a fair nostalgia after being unfaithful think.

Morgan (14:19):

So if they have a fair nostalgia, right, and they're thinking about this other person and they're kind of pining after that person, what they're wanting is they want the other person really to stop hoping for romance and they want things to feel normal again, right? So we got to get back to that pattern of normal, but positive, right? We talk about negative cycles a lot.

Brad (14:41):

Yeah. And Morgan, that's a really key insight you just said, because they're not saying, "I want in the relationship with us, our marriage, with you. " They're just saying, "Let's not put too much pressure on restarting our sexual relationship, or let's not put too much pressure into us being this perfect couple. I just want us to be good friends, or I want us to just get along. I want us to just not fight. I just want to get to first base before we start having all this emotional investment."

(15:12):

So sometimes they'll come at it like that. And like we've talked about before, the more intentional somebody was with an affair, like they were like, "I'm intentionally going to go cheat. I'm intentionally going to have an affair." Usually people like that are not as remorseful. They have more justifications for doing what they're doing. And so for them, they usually felt like, I'm speaking generally, but usually when somebody feels like a victim, like I was hurt first, I was injured in some key way before I had this affair, they use that as a justification for acting out. I've got this hurt and this injury so they can be more reluctant to enter back into the marriage. They're not as sorry, they're more reluctant and those injuries and hurts sometimes do have to be addressed for them to reenter back into the marriage because ideally we want the person who is unfaithful to be able to be a healer, but if they have been injured, sometimes we have to address those hurts.

(16:09):

Sometimes they are like, "You know what? I don't trust you even though I had this affair and I know you don't trust me now, but I don't trust you either."

(16:17):

So sometimes you have to kind of be graceful on both sides to address that. So I think that's important what you're saying.

Morgan (16:22):

That is very important that I can trust that you'll respond graciously, that you'll give me time to reinvest back in and as I dismantle all of the things that I've been doing or thinking and feeling for the last however long. So that's really important. So how they feel inside, right? So if the portrayer or the unfaithful spouse, they often feel guilty, right? They do feel guilty because they know that they've hurt you, right? As the listener or the viewer was saying, their spouse, their husband feels bad about how the affair hurt them. So they do love their spouse, they do love the listener, they still feel guilty, but then it's that nostalgia piece, right?

Brad (17:07):

Well, and I think it's a good point you're raising because they do feel guilt, but the guilt is usually the only reason they're still trying. And that's what the betrayed picks up on is like, you're only doing this out of guilt You feel all this towards your affair partner, the guilt is keeping the unfaithful party still in the marriage trying, but it's out of guilt and then the person who's betrayed picks up on that and

Morgan (17:31):

It's not

Brad (17:32):

Helping. No,

Morgan (17:33):

No, no.

Brad (17:33):

Because they're not sensing like, "I need you to pursue me. I need you to put that same effort into this. "

Morgan (17:38):

Or that you're fully invested in them. And like we're saying though, that takes a little bit of time as they dismantle what they've had. And so to try to be patient with that, because that does compound the hurt. I know it compounds the hurt tremendously when you hear those things,

(17:58):

But it does not mean that they can't love you or that things can't be fully invested or that they cannot, or that it's not a sign that it's hopeless, right? Because very often people, they'll reenter the relationship or they'll start the healing process, the healing journey for the kids, because they feel guilty, all of those things, that's how they start sometimes. It's how healing starts sometimes, right? But it does end up where you want it to be generally. It just will take time. And so trying to be patient with that. So if the person keeps trying, they might feel annoyed or trapped because they're still trying, but you need things, the person who's been betrayed, you need them to respond appropriately, you need all of these things. And so they might feel annoyed, they might feel trapped. And it's kind of that problem that we have, that negative cycle where we're sort of butting heads in the process of healing, but know that it's not the end of everything.

(19:05):

It doesn't mean that there's not hope.

Brad (19:07):

Yeah. And part of what people who've been unfaithful in this situation will think where they have an affair nostalgia is they will tend to downplay

(19:15):

Their own actions and the consequences of what they've done. They'll look at it like, "Well, yeah, I had an affair." Or they tend to downplay it. There's a lot of different ways they do that, but the key idea is to downplay it. They tend to minimize it. They tend to emphasize their own hurt. They get defensive. All the things that none of it's reassuring, unfortunately, but they tend to downplay it. And part of what they tend to do is they try to maybe let their spouse down gently. They're going to like, "Hey, it's not you, it's me, maybe we've been broken a while, you said a year ago you wanted a divorce before I started this affair, like our kids are older, nobody's going to be upset with us if we divorce." So they're trying to kind of avoid conflict and they even will start avoiding their spouse more because it's just like it's awkward and it does lead to conflict and these arguments and fights and then maybe they develop their own set of rules like, "Don't text me, don't harass me, don't follow me, don't hold me accountable." They start putting down these firm boundaries to the betrayed

(20:25):

Because the betrayed is like, I need-

Morgan (20:27):

Needing these things,

Brad (20:28):

Actually. Well, I need stuff from you, of course,

Morgan (20:30):

Because

Brad (20:31):

My trust is broken, but when somebody who is unfaithful, they may be like, "No, I'm not reachable. You can't reach me. Nope, can't do this. I can't do that. " They're not going to give. And there's a lot of different ways they can do that. Maybe they move out, maybe they get a no number, maybe they're like, "Maybe I'll stay in the other bedroom, but I'm not going to give to the marriage." They just set their own rules. Those kinds of things, when we're supposed to be quote unquote healing, actually can make situations, not worse necessarily, but they create new injuries, more injuries and hurts that have to be worked through because the core is I want to be chosen. And really part of this too is the unfaithful partner also needs to know they can be chosen. You can look over what I've done, you can forgive what I've done, those kinds of things- You can heal from what I've done.

(21:24):

Yeah, you can heal from what I've done. And the more we kind of get caught into this negative cycle that we're talking about today, like how we're trying to present both perspectives on this, how we get caught in that negative cycle, the more we get caught in that those differences that we're presenting,

(21:40):

The more both partners lose hope that anything can change. And there are some clear strategies that can be done in this situation. If you are the person who's been betrayed, you're really going to have to work on the trauma that's here. You're going to have to work on the trauma, you've been betrayed, you're going to have to ... We have resources available that we can help you with. We've created a whole program that can help you with this kind of trauma. You're not hopeless if this is where you're at. In fact, I would consider you normal if this is where you're at. This is a very normal healing situation. So Morgan and I today are not talking about this like, "Oh my gosh, these people are lost and hopeless."

Morgan (22:20):

No, not at all.

Brad (22:20):

No, this is actually normal. It's like you take your car into a body shop and it's like, "Oh my gosh, it's totaled." To them, that's what they're used to working on, not fender benders. We're the same way. If you're a mess and you feel like, "Ali, we suck, you're coming to the right place. We can help you. " So you got to get help with that trauma, you got to get help with those emotional injuries, and you really got to get clear on what reconciliation means to you, like choosing us. And it's like maybe like what Morgan said, like maybe we do start because of our kids or because it's maybe more practical, so to speak, but we are willing and we want to borrow hope to get to that really great relationship that we can be, that maybe we've had in the past. We want to get back to that.

Morgan (23:13):

Right. And again, often I'll hear that while people will say, "I just want to go back to the way we were. I want to go back to normal." And I think what people are really trying to say is, "I just want to heal from this and not have to feel these terrible feelings again." But it's really important to realize that we're not going to go back to the way things were, right? We're not going back to how it was because we'll just arrive to where we are today. Again, it'll just happen. Again, we don't want that, right? That is not the goal. The goal is to have a new marriage, to have a new relationship, to have something fresh and new. And it's going to take some time and it's going to be a windy road. It's not a straight path, right? It's going to have to sometimes require some give and take, right?

(23:58):

So if the betrayer, the unfaithful partner, the partner who stepped out of the relationship, if they are putting up their own boundaries and they're saying to you, "I am not ready to fully invest in the relationship. I'm still thinking and pining over the affair and what it gave to me. " We have to listen to that, but we also have to realize that that's sometimes part of the healing journey, right? Where they're dismantling this, but the more they begin to invest in the marriage, the more they begin to invest in the relationship, even just not moving out, right? The better it will be, right? It'll turn the corner with help. You can't just say, "Oh, I forgive you, " and then continue forward the way you are. Forgiveness alone does not solve the problems, right? We've got to be able to do something completely different, and that's where we step in, right?

(24:55):

That's where the experts step in to help you to do that. But yeah, it's a winding road. It's not a straight and narrow path.

Brad (25:04):

Yeah, exactly. Part of what you can do if you've been betrayed is set a boundary. I'm open to rebuilding if you're fully choosing us. If you're still attached to the affair, I have to step back to protect myself. You can say that without being angry or mean or spiteful. And that's important. But it's important to be able to use our voice to protect ourself.

New Speaker (25:22):

And

Brad (25:23):

Then it's okay to also ask for true remorse. Not, I'm sorry that you feel that way, or I'm sorry that you got hurt, but it's okay to expect true remorse. And if you've been unfaithful in this situation, it's a really good idea to figure out what you want and get clear on why you want. If you're choosing to reconcile, to get clear on why you're choosing to reconcile, write down all the whys. If the more wise you give yourself for accomplishing a goal, the more things that you can write on a sheet of paper on why you want this specific thing, the more motivated you will be. If the affair only gave you like, "I felt good. I felt this intoxication. I felt this infatuation, but that doesn't give you anything else." That's not a strong enough why. So get clear on why you want your marriage and come up with as many reasons as you can to help you get motivated to reconcile.

(26:28):

And then to ultimately be able to be the person you need to be for your marriage, you're going to have to starve out the affair partner. Part of that means you're going to have to not work with them anymore. Also, starving out the affair partner means not looking them up on social media, not ending your relationship with them, but it also means you're going to have to stop idealizing them.

(26:50):

Part of what causes illuminance to grow and this feeling of infatuation to grow is we look at them in a positive light and usually if an affair hasn't gone on that long, and I'm kind of using air quotes on like that long,

(27:07):

It's not a set amount of time for everybody, but usually in the beginning, we tend to see only the positives in the person. And when we are focused only on the positives of that person, we tend to see them, it tends to feed into that affair nostalgia. They had these good qualities, I felt alive, I felt this, I felt that. And when we feed into that, when we only see the positives and we idealize them, I don't see any negatives, it's going to be harder for us to look at that as a regrettable event. We're going to look at that as like, "Man, that was so good. Gosh, I wish I had done a better job of maybe hiding it. " Maybe that we don't go to that extreme, but what we need to do is kind of look at this and we really have to stop idealizing the person.

(27:57):

So on another sheet of paper, so the first sheet, we have 20 reasons why I'm choosing my marriage, like why I want this. The other sheet of paper, we have 20 bad qualities of the affair partner and then we let ourselves think about those things because the more we can think about that and call attention to that, we stop idealizing it. We stop looking at it as a good thing.

Morgan (28:19):

That's right. Yeah. I think the image that comes to my mind is, if you're trying to starve out a tumor,

(28:25):

Trying to starve out a tumor, you've got to cut the blood supply that goes to that tumor that continues to pump it with nutrients in life or you got to starve it off, put that stent in, block off the blood supply and kill that tumor so that the rest of the body can grow and thrive and function. And that tumor is just a blood sucking leech literally, literally, and it gives you nothing. It's just there and it'll be dead weight until you cut it out and then the rest of the body can thrive. And that rest of the body is your marriage, it's your relationship, it's your family, it's your identity, it's who you are. And that's provided that both partners and the relationship are of course thriving and doing their best to heal and can continue forward better than ever, right? So that's the goal.

(29:14):

And anything else you'd like to add to that or anything? No. Okay. Well, we're so thankful that you're here. We're thankful to serve you, to listen with you and to talk with you about these things. If you are struggling to heal Broken Trust, we are here to help you. You can find us at healingbrokentrust.com. We have programs, therapy, workshops, all of the things to help you. It's a holistic approach, a full approach to healing

(29:45):

The trauma, the marriage, the infidelity to wrap it up, to heal it and to move forward stronger than ever before. So you have a thought?

Brad (29:54):

Yeah. I was just going to say we would love to meet you guys, to meet

Morgan (29:57):

You in person.

Brad (29:58):

Part of what we all offer as opposed to couples therapy or marriage counseling is our programs are very structured. We focus on the key result areas. We focus on those 20% of things that give you the 80% of the results so you can work through this in max quickest time possible and you can do this. Absolutely. We know what we're doing. You need help. Let us help you. And you guys can do this. Absolutely. You can work through this.

Morgan (30:27):

Have you been wondering how to break free from the affair once and for all? Now's the time to take back your life, your emotions, find happiness, joy, and fulfillment with your marriage. Healingbrokentrust.com is the place where you can find resources to take the healing journey to the next level. You'll find incredible resources for every stage of your fair recovery journey. Connect with our team of qualified affair recovery therapists who stay current with the ever growing, ever changing a fair recovery research that's available to help you heal whererever you are in the process. Take our home study course focused on helping you communicate and express yourself in a way that gets you what you want. You can also book an incredible one-on-one intensive retreat where instead of dragging out the pain over months or years, you can condense the time it takes to heal in just a matter of days using scientifically proven methods that work to help couples lower their guard, let go of the fear, melt the anger, and experience each other at a deep emotional level you may have never experienced before.

(31:37):

So what are you waiting for? Go to healingbrokentrust.com, but don't take our word for it. Read the client letters and listen to the reviews on the healingbrokentrust.com website. So go to healingbrokentrust.com and we'll talk to you soon.

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Ep 85 - Why You Haven't Rebuilt Trust Yet

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Transcript:

Morgan (00:21):

Hi, welcome to Healing Broken Trust. We're Brad and Morgan Robinson. And today we are talking about the process of repairing trust and we just want to jump right in. So Brad, let's talk to them about repairing trust.

Brad (00:33):

Yeah. There's a pattern that researchers have identified or a process that researchers have identified that helps couples repair trust. And it's a research-based model. It explains why just apologizing often doesn't do the work, the deeper work that people need to build trust. And the big idea is that trust repair is not a one time ... Or excuse me, trust repair is not a one person project. It's not just up to one person to rebuild trust. It's actually a two-way back and forth process between two people. That's what they discovered.

(01:09):

And like we've talked about before, there's research on what they call the victim perpetrator dynamic. One person gets wronged, the other person did the offense, but it's up to both people to repair a trust. So on one side is the person who was hurt and whose trust was violated. In the research, they call this the trustor. We're going to use our normal language around that instead of saying trust her. But it's the person who was ... So on one side is the person who was hurt and whose trust was violated. And then on the other side, Morgan, is the trustee. That's the person who caused the damage or is accused of causing it. So you have the truster, the person who broke, the person who was injured, whose trust was violated. And then you have the other person obviously who caused the damage or at the very least has been accused of causing that damage.

(02:00):

And what this model says, this process says is that it says something really important. Trust gets rebuilt when the person who caused the damage or is accused of causing it makes efforts to prove they're trustworthy that outweigh the injured person's hurt, that outweigh the injured person's hurt and their natural drive to protect themselves. So that's really important. And that right there is where a lot of breakdown happens is, okay, you've broken my trust, but your efforts aren't outweighing my fear of getting hurt again. Your efforts are not outweighing the hurt that has happened to me. And when we can't even get past that level, we're not going to get it where we need to go because I'm hurt and injured and you're not putting in the effort that tells me I'm safe enough yet. I'm scared. I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm not seeing the kind of effort I need that you're willing to do whatever it takes.

(02:59):

That tells me, okay, I can relax with you. I don't have to be careful. So in other words, after a breach, a person who's hurt isn't neutral. Their mind and their body are often saying, "Don't be vulnerable again until you have a reason to be safe, until you have a reason to be vulnerable with this person."

(03:19):

So there's resistance and they're not trying to be difficult, but that resistance that they have is self-protection.

Morgan (03:26):

Right. Great. So that's why there's really got to be both people coming together to build and rebuild the trust, not to put the onus on the person who's been hurt. That's not the idea. It's really more about that person being aware of their pain and their hurt so that they can respond to the efforts of the person who violated the trust. Is that pretty fair to say?

New Speaker (03:55):

I think so. Yeah. I would say that's

Morgan (03:57):

Great. A good accurate assessment.

New Speaker (03:59):

Yeah.

Morgan (03:59):

So there were three questions, right? Yeah. Three big questions that were addressed.

New Speaker (04:04):

Yeah. So what they say is that that repairing trust moves through three big questions. You can kind of think of this as stages and which stage you're in determines what kind of repair actually works. So that's really important. So sometimes there's different tools in our tool belt that we can use, but depending on which stage we're in and the repair process determines what actually will stick and will land and be effective. So the first is just the first question that people have is, did you do it? That's the most basic question. Did you do it? Are you guilty or not? That's basically what they're asking. So this is the stage where the person who was hurt is trying to figure out what is true. So, did you sleep with them or not? Was this an emotional or physical affair? How long did this go on?

(04:54):

We're kind of that level where people get caught in those questions. So if the person who's accused can convincingly show that they're innocent or that the event didn't happen the way it's being interpreted, repair is quote unquote easier because it removes the foundation of mistrust. Did you have an affair? Did you not? And honestly, once you kind of get into that realm of like, I'm abandoned, I'm hurt, you betrayed me, there's a real trauma there. But according to the researchers who are applying this, not necessarily to infidelity, but to all kinds of situations, but it gets easier to repair trust if it didn't happen in the way that it's being interpreted. And that's what people will often think who've been unfaithful is like, okay, if it's only emotional, not physical, then that's got to be easier for us. So they'll minimize the lie. That's where trickle truth comes in because it's like, okay, I can't be as bad.

(05:54):

I got to kind of keep water it down, that kind of thing. But ultimately that ends up hurting trust long term

New Speaker (06:00):

Because

New Speaker (06:00):

They're denying and they're lying. And what people need who've been betrayed is like, "I just need the whole truth. I just need the whole story." That kind of thing.

Morgan (06:12):

Yeah. So not dismissing, not minimizing, not lying, so to speak, to make it feel less bad because it's all bad anyways. So might as well just get it out there.

New Speaker (06:22):

Yeah, exactly. And Morgan, here's a key point, and this often gets overlooked. If the person who was hurt is still stuck on, did you do it? And then if we jump ahead to, "I promise I'll change," that kind of promise can fall flat because the person who was hurt is thinking, "Change from what? We haven't even agreed on what happened." And it's like, "What happened here? You haven't agreed on the details." And so there's like a second question that people have. Do you want to get into that one?

Morgan (06:50):

Oh yeah. So why did it happen? So first you've agreed on the details of what happened. You had a one night stand, you were unfaithful five times or whatever it is and it looked like this once that's been agreed upon, the second question then becomes, well, why did it happen? What led to this? If it's clear the trustee or the person accused did it, the next question, was this because of you or because of the situation? So now they're trying to make up and understand why it happened. And so it's where people argue about the cause. The trustor, according to the research, the person who was hurt is asking, does this reveal something about your character and your choices or was this driven by pressures, context or a breakdown in judgment?

New Speaker (07:42):

So I think it's important what you're saying, Morgan, because the person who's injured, they're asking why. And literally everybody who's been betrayed is asking the same thing like, why? What is the cause of this? Is it your character? Is it your choices? What was going on? Is

Brad (07:56):

There

New Speaker (07:56):

Pressure? What was the context around this? And sometimes people who've been betrayed blame themselves, sometimes they don't, but they're looking for a reason. And ironically, people blaming themselves for this helps them actually feel in some ways empowered after a trauma because it's like, if I know the reason for this and if it's me, then I'm not as-

Morgan (08:19):

I'm in control.

New Speaker (08:19):

I'm more in control of

Morgan (08:21):

It.

New Speaker (08:21):

And I'm not saying that to blame somebody for being betrayed like, "Oh, you did it or it's your fault." I'm just explaining how it's normal for people to wonder why did this happen. And if they can't find a cause, they'll blame themselves. And even if they do have a cause, they'll still blame themselves because doesn't mean it's true. It's just a defense mechanism to try to take some degree of control over this. And at this stage, Morgan, the person who caused the damage often tries to explain, "Well, here was what was happening. I was overwhelmed. I wasn't thinking clearly." They'll blame it on circumstances, they'll provide justifications for it, but the person who's hurt what they're hear is more excuse making.

Morgan (09:03):

Yeah, what they hear. Yeah.

New Speaker (09:04):

Yeah. And that really is a huge breakdown, especially when we get into the area of apologies or we get into the area of just letting the person who's injured talk about their feelings around it. People will quickly try to explain themselves thinking that, "Well, if you understood where I'm coming from and you understood my thought process around this, then you could..." At that point, you wouldn't feel bad because you would understand the real reason behind it.

Morgan (09:32):

Or take a target off my back.

New Speaker (09:34):

Yeah, take a target off my back. But it comes across as defensiveness. It comes across as counter attacking, maybe even blaming. We just get into a negative cycle around it and it weakens the trust rebuilding process. So the person who's been hurt when we hear things like, "Well, here was what was happening, so you have some context or I was overwhelmed, I wasn't thinking clearly." When that happens, people will feel like they're just hearing excuses. So this stage is delicate. Explanations can help if they build clarity and the person who's taking ownership as they do it, but they often backfire if they sound like they're dodging responsibility, which is usually what happens, to be honest. I would say 5% of couples get that right where the person who's unfaithful isn't dodging responsibility, they take ownership. And part of that's there's intense shame. They remember the event differently.

(10:32):

They have some of those things that we've talked about before.

Morgan (10:35):

Yeah, absolutely. And so the third question, do you want to jump into it or do you want me to do- You go ahead. Okay. So that third question would be, well, can you change? It's very important. Can you change? So if it's accepted that the violation reflects on the trustee, the person who caused the damage, then the big question becomes, is this fixable? Is this who you are or is this something that you can change from or we can change from? And this is where trust repair becomes about the future. We're looking towards the future and us together, potentially staying together and working this out. And so the person who was hurt is basically asking, "Can I believe this won't happen again?" Is there a real correction happening or am I signing up for repeat harm? Are you going to do this again? Is this going to be a pattern?

(11:25):

Is this going to be who you are?

New Speaker (11:29):

Exactly. Yeah. And that's really important.

Morgan (11:31):

Yeah.

New Speaker (11:32):

That question of can you change? So we go from, did you do it like yes or no? Did you do it? It's kind of black or white to why did it happen? And then ultimately, can you change? And you know what's interesting, Morgan, is that usually people who've broken trust ask themselves the same questions. They're not asking did I do it. They know if they did it or not.

Morgan (11:55):

Usually.

New Speaker (11:55):

Yeah. Unless they're like blackout drunk or something, but they are asking, why did I do this and can I change? Most people are good. If they've broken trust, they don't want to do it

Brad (12:06):

Again.

New Speaker (12:06):

Even if they're really mad at their spouse, they felt like it was justified, that kind of thing. As some of that kind of wears off, some of that anger wears off and some of those justifications wear off that we've talked about already, they are wondering like, "I don't want to do this. Can I change? I want to be a good person. I want to live by my values. Why did I do this?

Morgan (12:30):

" I want to have true love. Yeah, I want

New Speaker (12:31):

To have true love. Real connection. Yeah. They don't want to be kind of the villain in their own love story. And so what you're saying is important at this stage, so at this stage, what matters most isn't just words. So there's the question of, can you change? And usually there's promises, yes, I can, I won't ever do it again, that kind of thing. But what rebuilds trust is evidence over time.

(12:56):

Things like changes in behavior, transparency, accountability, putting safeguards in place, boundaries in place, and then just having consistency from the person who caused the damage. A breakdown that occurs here is when the person who broke trust is arguing about the kind of boundaries that are in place. They're like, "I don't want this kind of boundary put on me. I can't do that. That's too much. You're asking too much of me. " That kind of thing. And part of what needs to happen is what needs to happen is they got to just keep showing I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I can change. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, but they got to do it in the key result areas. And the two biggest areas to prevent future infidelity are going to be having healthy boundaries in place because negative boundaries or poor boundaries, I mean, give rise to opportunity.

(13:52):

A lot of the people who stray usually have poor boundaries. They share things that belong in the marriage with others. They can have people pleasing tendencies, people who get drunk or on drugs. Those are poor boundaries just because you're high. But the other area is they got to do what's called proximity seeking, meaning they got to learn to lean on their spouse emotionally when they're struggling. And what they normally do is they tend to bottle things up and they don't lean on their spouse emotionally. So if we can kind of get really good at both of those, like boundaries and then lean on our spouse emotionally, we're going to be more likely to be faithful in the future. And what's ironic about that is that a lot of people who stray don't feel like, "Yeah, I can lean on you emotionally. I just broke your trust.

(14:40):

I hurt you. I betrayed you. " So now they have a better reason for not being vulnerable and not doing proximity seeking so they have a better reason for doing it. But the irony is that they're still engaged in the same behavior that made them vulnerable and fair to begin with.

(14:57):

And that kind of behavior of like not using my voice, doing proximity, seeking, leaning on my spouse emotionally, what it does is when I don't do that, it creates resentment because things on my end don't get prepared. I'm not having that healthy conflict sometimes that needs to happen.

Morgan (15:12):

And I wonder if people in that position think to themselves, "I can't rely on you emotionally because you're already emotionally so weighted down and heavy and hurting. And for me to come and share how I'm feeling with you is putting more pressure on you than you need right now." But it's the opposite very often. It's very much like it would calm and keep those fears at bay for the person who's hurting because you're becoming more transparent. You're actually someone that they can trust a little bit more because you are relying on them for your emotional needs. And so it feels kind of like the opposite, but it really isn't. It's truly something that's necessary.

New Speaker (15:56):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Morgan, there are specific reasons why apologizing isn't enough. Now again, this model of trust for building isn't necessarily talking about infidelity. It's talking about kind of relationships in general, but we can learn from it. There's still insights we can glean. And one of the things they say in this research and this model is that apologizing is often too simple. And I would say, yeah, absolutely. In cases of infidelity, it's often too simple. That's why it doesn't work because it's just too complex of an injury. When an apology is happening at ... Apologies are usually reserved more for that level three where can you change? Usually apologies work better there because they're the person ... What apologies are saying is that I'm taking responsibility and I'm changing. This isn't going to happen again. Kind of like we talked about before where apologies are like an explicit promise like, "I'm not going to do this again." When somebody apologizes and says, "I'm sorry," basically they're kind of saying, "I'm not going to do this again." And that's usually kind of reserved more for that level three, "Can you change?"

Brad (17:08):

So

New Speaker (17:09):

That's why the apologies are more effective in that area, not necessarily when we're explaining why it happened. If the person who was hurt is stuck in, "Did you do this or why did you do it? " And they're trying to figure out what happened or why it happened, then that apology usually won't land because it doesn't answer that person's real question they're having. You're not addressing the actual thing they're bringing up.

New Speaker (17:32):

You're

New Speaker (17:32):

Trying to talk about something else, not what's really there. So congruency is important.

Morgan (17:37):

You got to meet them where they are. Yeah,

New Speaker (17:38):

You got to meet them where

Morgan (17:39):

They're at. The process. Yeah.

New Speaker (17:40):

Yeah. That congruency is really important. Now, some betrayals are going to be harder to repair because there's a question of like, is it integrity or just this is how the researchers define it. Is it integrity or competence? So a key insight from this paper is that not all trust violations are equal. Some are mainly about competence like, did you make a mistake, you messed up, you weren't capable in that moment. Was it a one night stand? Were you drunk? Was it a moment of weakness or was it more intentional? Were you coerced? How long did it last? That might be something. Was it a brief affair or was it a long affair? Was it just messages? Was it maybe was it this or was it that-

Morgan (18:24):

People you're with or ...

New Speaker (18:26):

Yeah. And so did you make a mistake? Did you mess up? Were you not capable in that moment? Those are often easier to repair because improvement is easier to believe. To believe.

New Speaker (18:39):

Right.

New Speaker (18:39):

And that's important.

New Speaker (18:40):

Yeah.

New Speaker (18:41):

But violations that hit integrity, like honesty, faithfulness, moral character are harder because negative integrity information tends to weigh heavier and stick longer. So if I get information about somebody or if I'm married and okay, you cheated on me, you betrayed me and I'm getting information that this is about your integrity and your moral character, that's going to way harder than like if it's just like a other mess up.

Morgan (19:05):

Because it speaks to the core of the person and who they are. And if that's who you are at the core of you, you're just someone who loves to be unfaithful or it's just who you are, then it's going to be a lot harder for someone to believe that you can change or that you want to change, that change is possible. But I would argue that most people are not like that in the sense of like they don't necessarily want to be unfaithful. I mean, I'm sure that people are out there, but most of the time people do want to have a good, loving relationship.

New Speaker (19:41):

Yeah, exactly. Morgan, one of the other things that they mentioned is that what does not help trust building is mixed messaging. So mixed messages can backfire. So there's certain repair attempts that can make things worse. And when there's mixed messaging where the person who is accused denies that they did any wrongdoing, but then they apologize for it like, "No, I didn't do it. I'm sorry you feel like I did." Sometimes that actually makes people feel worse or-

Morgan (20:13):

Because you're apologizing for their feelings. You're saying, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you had that experience." It can say, it really speaks that they're sorry for how you were feeling, that you are responding the way you are instead of being sorry for their actions or being sorry for the hurt that they caused. That's the big reason that makes messaging to be very mindful and careful about how you word and approach your apology is important.

New Speaker (20:46):

Yeah. Now, another type of mixed message is somebody who is saying I'm innocent, I didn't do it. However, if I did do it, this is why I would've done it. No, I didn't shoot on you. No, I didn't have an affair, but if I did, I would've done it because you neglected me and you hurt me and you weren't there and you embarrassed me, but so I have the right to do it, but I didn't do it. Well, that's a very big mixed message and it doesn't fit logically like you're saying you didn't do it, but here's all the reasons you could have done it.

New Speaker (21:19):

Yeah, you should

New Speaker (21:21):

Have. That doesn't make sense. Obviously suspicions are going to go up for the person who's hurt in that kind of situation. That

Morgan (21:28):

Alone would be a pain that would be a hurt.

New Speaker (21:30):

Well, another mixed message that's really common is I care about you, but then when the person who's been injured says, "Okay, here's what I need to make it better." And then the person who's unfaithful doesn't do anything about it. "I need you to set boundaries. I need you to be honest with me. I need you to let me do blah, blah, blah to understand where you're at and how you feel, go to therapy, join Brad and Morgan's program, different things like that. But you're saying you're willing to do whatever it takes, but then you're like, " Nope, I won't do that. "That's a mixed message. "I won't go to therapy. I won't get help. I won't go- I won't do this. I won't do this. " And that just sends mixed messages.

(22:17):

Now there is patterns that people can get into like we've already talked about. The model that we're talking about says that trust repair doesn't only end and quote unquote fixed or not fixed. It can settle into patterns. Sometimes both people push hard where the person who caused the damage pushes for trust and the person who's hurt pushes back and then they get escalated into conflict and it creates escalation and constant conflict when that happens. You also see the reverse. The person who's hurt is like, "No, you're going to do this, you're going to be accountable, you're going to do this need, you're going to meet that. " And then the other person gets their back against the wall and kind of fights back or gets kind of rebellious, so to speak.

Brad (23:06):

I'm

New Speaker (23:06):

Not going to comply, that kind of thing. And the person who caused the damage, sometimes the person who caused the damage, if they don't put in the effort and then the person who was hurt becomes even more sure they can't trust, you get mistrust, confirmation or suspicion hardens. That's a fancy way of saying basically, "I need you to do X, Y, Z for me because I don't trust you and I ask for it to be done and then you don't do it, it actually confirms I can't trust you. I need you to put this boundary into place. I need you to be honest. I need you to choose me. I need you to work hard at this, but then you don't do it. I need those things from me because I don't trust you. But then if you don't do it, it actually confirms, yeah, I shouldn't trust you.

(23:53):

" And that's really hard and sad.

Morgan (23:56):

Yeah, it is. And it's interesting because I often wonder why people would push back when their spouse is wanting them to do X, Y, or Z to rebuild trust and they don't do it. And I usually see that they don't know how to do it and they don't know how to break out of the patterns and they just really need someone to show them.

New Speaker (24:17):

Well, Morgan, yeah, I'm speaking generally, part of why people don't do the work who've been unfaithful is like we talked about earlier, intentionality. Was this act intentional or not? And when people do an act that they know is wrong, intentionally do it and they know it's wrong and they know people are going to get hurt when they find out, usually they have less remorse after the fact. They have less guilt about the act, at least immediately after it's discovered. That doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever. But when people have that lack of remorse and not any real guilt about it, they're going to struggle to comply with the wounded partner's wishes. They're going to be like, "Why?" "No, I'm not going to do that. "Because part of this, like we've talked about in our podcast, you have to address the underlying negative cycle that's there because if we don't address the negative cycle that we're in, we're healing with a negative cycle.

(25:16):

And all of these things that we're talking about today that are like mismatches are all examples of trying to heal with a negative cycle. And part of what we've created with our program is we help you get out of your negative cycle so you can actually heal. Otherwise, you're healing with the cycle that was in place most likely when this was created.

Brad (25:36):

I

New Speaker (25:36):

Had a couple recently and they were talking about their negative cycle and they're like, " Yeah, we've had this negative cycle for 30 years and then trust is broken, there's an affair and now they're trying to heal from an affair with that same pattern. And sometimes people will temporarily get better after an affair gets discovered, but then that power of the pattern that they've been in, the bad habits that they've had begin to suppress their good intentions and good efforts. And they just get stuck in this. It's a mess.

(26:07):

"So here's what you can do with this information. One practical takeaway you can take from this is which of these three questions are we actually fighting about? Is it, did you do it? Probably we're probably past that. Some of you may be kind of there. Sometimes people listen to our podcast because they suspect somebody has been unfaithful, but maybe we're kind of past that like, " I know because I caught them right-handed, I seen the text messages, I have proof, so maybe we're past, did you do it? "But then there's also the question of why did it happen. We go really deep in our program on why an affair happened. We talk about the 10 characteristics that the average person who has us strays, we go deep into that, which is really eye-opening. And when people see that like, " Oh my gosh, I have these characteristics.

(26:55):

"And probably about 90% of people would say," Yeah, I have all 10 of these. "When people see that they have those characteristics, they are motivated to change because they don't want to be the same person. They're motivated to be a healer, they're motivated to change who they are because they're like, " Crap, this didn't happen in a vacuum. I have real things I got to change about myself. "And then the last ... Yeah, go ahead. The

Morgan (27:17):

Beautiful thing about that is it is changeable. There is hope, which

(27:21):

A lot of people, they get stuck thinking," Oh no, they get stuck in that can't you change mode, right, which is the next one that, oh gosh, this is who I am. I can't change who I am. I just have these desires and things like that. "But that's not reality. Reality is that change is the only thing that's inevitable in life, right? We're all changing, we're getting older, we're everything. So this can change. You can change and life can be better because of your self-improvement. So did you do it that phase? Why did it happen? And then can you change? Yeah.

New Speaker (27:59):

Yeah. And Morgan, the best repair attempts really depend on which question you're answering

Morgan (28:04):

Because

New Speaker (28:05):

You want to be congruent with where you're at.

(28:09):

Sometimes you don't want to have those repair mismatches. The biggest repair mismatch is what we started with this morning. It's this idea of the person who's been injured, they have a real concern on, is this going to happen again? Everything that we've said today, like, can I trust you? Do I mean anything to you? Do I matter to you? They're scared of trusting and they need the person who hurt them. They need the unfaithful party's efforts to outweigh their fears. So if you think about it on a scale, they need the unfaithful party's efforts to outweigh on a scale to override their objections so that they can really heal. Because if they don't sense that the person who's been unfaithful is willing to do whatever it takes, they're like, " No, this is going to happen again. "Is it true that once a cheater, always a cheater?

(29:05):

Is this going to happen in our case? I don't see you trying. I don't see the effort happening. And so they need to see that kind of effort. And then part of it too is like they need to see you growing in the right areas. So part of what we did at Healing Broken Trust is we created a comprehensive program that helps us as a couple, but also helps both partners and their individual needs to heal from this and to really not have this happen again. So if you're interested in that, please call our office. We would love to talk with you and see if you're a right fit for our program. Thank you for joining us today.

Morgan (29:42):

Yeah. And you can also reach out to us at healingbrokentrust.com. That's healingbrokentrust.com. And we'd love to partner with you and help you to heal in whatever relationship that you are in, you can absolutely have a beautiful man Marriage. Yeah. All right. Thanks

New Speaker (30:02):

Guys. Thank you guys. Thank you. We would love it if you're able to like and subscribe if this has been helpful for you. Oh. Yeah. So I'd love to see you guys address identity collapse splitting eraser as it relates to infidelity. Yeah. That's really important because identity is related to memory and if we part of the betrayed their identity, how they view these things gets wrapped up in that and how our identity also shapes what we remember. So for people who've been unfaithful, they can have an identity collapse where they don't remember certain things because it's a mismatch to who they say they are, who they believe themselves to be. And that can lead to compartmentalization. So yeah, really good question.

Morgan (31:01):

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm trying to think, but any other questions or anything? Any follow up questions maybe? We're so glad that you guys have joined us. We look forward to talking with you again next week. If you'd like to be reminded of these lives, definitely like and subscribe and you can also join our email list when you go to healingbrokentrust.com. If there's not any other questions, we'll call it a day.

New Speaker (31:43):

Yeah. Thank you guys for joining us and listening.

Morgan (31:45):

Yep.

New Speaker (31:46):

We appreciate you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.