Ep 9: 6 Ground Rules for Discussing Infidelity

Brad:

You're dealing with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson. This podcast is where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This podcast is for you. This episode, episode nine is where we talk about ground rules for talking about the affair. And just as a reminder, go to healing broken trust.com/episode nine to download your free resources. Again, that's healing broken trust.com/episode nine. That's the number nine. Download your free resources and walk through those resources as you listen to these episodes. You'll find it's very, very helpful. So let's get started. So Brad, what are we talking about today?

Brad:

Well, today we're going to talk about really the ground rules of how to talk about an affair. We've gotten a lot of emails at people asking basically that question. We're having trouble in this area, so we want to give you guys listening ground rules on how to talk about an affair to really make this the most productive time because how you talk about it really sets the stage of your affair recovery process. And so ground rule number one is just that how the affair is discussed, it's more important than really what you talk

Brad:

About.

Brad:

And this needs to be a process where the discussions are handled in a way where both spouses feel respected and Morgan, so many people talk about an affair and it becomes so in a way counterproductive because there's arguing and fighting about it and people don't really get the healing that they need or they don't heal the way they need to. So what we're talking about is the ground rules and really that main idea how we talk about this, it's so important because it's really even more important than what is said if it's done in a way with caring, compassion, honesty. Honesty is really important. If we have that, it's really going to help us in their fair recovery

Morgan:

Process a lot more successful. And how you talk about it, we'll also shape what is said. I mean if you are just haphazardly talking about it and you just talk forever and ever and ever, it's going to be a lot more difficult to control your emotions. And then in turn, you're going to say a lot of things that are hurtful.

Brad:

And so we're going to have some ground rules. So number one is just knowing this is an important piece of the process and what we say isn't really as important as how we talk about it.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Exactly. And the reason I say it needs to be done in a way that's respectful with compassion is for the injured spouse, we need the betrayer to become the healer for us. And if they feel like this isn't helpful, they're not going to be honest and they're not going to share. And this needs to be productive.

Morgan:

And so it's really important to set aside intentional time to talk about the affair. And that's really ground rule number two, setting aside that time is so important. In the beginning you'll find that you want to talk for hours, but as the process of healing moves forward, you may find that the longer you talk about it in any given period, your conversations begin to be less and less productive.

Brad:

You should schedule time to talk about this because this is one of those things in life, just like exercise or dieting, where if you're not intentional about it, you're probably not going to do it as the betrayer. You're just going to want to avoid it.

Morgan:

Well, you've said at certain points cut it off because it'll be much more productive that

Brad:

Way. And I'm going to get into that later more specifically. But the idea with this is sitting aside, time gives you a break from dealing with the affair and in the beginning of the process of a fair recovery, what you're doing, most people find themselves talking about it for hours as time goes on, especially in the first weeks in the beginning. But as time goes on, people find themselves, we need a break from this. We still got lives to live lead. We still have things that we got to do. We just want to enjoy each other's company and have fun. And so setting aside time where specifically discuss this.

Morgan:

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes those intrusive thoughts that happen with the betrayed spouse, it can be very, very difficult. They can get into this cycle of asking the same question, same question, and then feeling like they're not getting anywhere. So it's kind of difficult if you like something you've said, something I've heard you say is that after 30 minutes, those conversations become kind of unproductive. Is

Brad:

That correct? Yeah. Well, as you go on longer it can be unproductive.

And so the next idea or the next ground rule is that the spouse who had the affair really needs to have what's called a purge session or a vomit session. You really need to get it out. You need to get all the details out, you need to get everything out. And the sooner this comes out, the better. It's always better if the betrayer discloses information rather than an affair partner tells the spouse or they'd stumble upon it. It's always better if that person says, Hey, I had an affair. This is what happened. And gives you the details of it. What's not helpful though is when the spouse who has been betrayed has to be a detective and has to really look for answers. They feel like they're getting stuck. They have to be a detective. They have to look for answers. They have to kind of hunt, they have to snoop around. You're not doing well in the air recovery process if that's happening. And part of that is the injured spouse has such a need to know, and here's what you're doing by talking about this, is you're giving them knowledge that is really healing for them.

It really helps them. I know when I was betrayed in the past, before I married my wife, completely different person. But whenever I had a chance to talk to somebody about this, who knew the other person and that can shine some light on to help me understand this betrayal better, that was the only time I found relief. Many times that's what this is like for people is the only time they find relief is when this is actually being discussed and they feel like they're getting answers about this. And so

Morgan:

It's a lot easier to build trust that way too, if you're being outright honest and open and just very transparent. Yeah,

Brad:

You're exactly right, Morgan, when you're 100% honest, you're being 100% transparent. I have nothing to hide. Here's what I've been doing this

Morgan:

You I volunteering

Brad:

Information and you're willing to do this.

It's not like pulling teeth or you're forced to do this, but you're willing to do it. When you have that, it's a much smoother healing process. This isn't an easy process, but it's much smoother. And so the spouse that's been betrayed, they need to know that's when they find relief. But part of this though is people don't want to really share or they don't want to purge or vomit because they feel like they're actually doing more damage when they do that. But it's like cough medicine. Sure, cough medicine tastes horrible, but it actually makes you feel

Morgan:

Better. Absolutely. And you may notice that the betrayed spouse asks the same questions over and over and it may be a cue that you're not giving enough detail. It's very normal for the betrayed spouse to ask questions, the same questions over and over. But it may be that they're just trying to process it and they learn something new each time. They may hear something a little differently or they may actually, something may sink in the third time that they hear it. But it may also be that cue that you need to give a little more detail. Maybe you need to give a little more information, try not to hold back and try to just be very patient with that because it's going to be a process.

Brad:

And Morgan, before we go on onto the next one, I wanted to just throw this in there. Somebody this last week said, look, I already know the worst part of this. You cheated on me. Nothing else you're going to tell me is worse, as bad as that. And so it's just a lot of the people who have affairs who cheat because they don't want to make matters worse, they don't want to see their spouse hurting. They will basically suppress information and not want to say anything. And so what happens is they're not talking, they're not sharing

Morgan:

That kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Alright, and we're talking about key important steps. Actually we're on the fourth step. They need to volunteer information and the more you volunteer on your own and the less your spouse has to dig for it and dig for it, the better you are in the process of healing. So what would you say is the next one, Brad?

Brad:

Well, the fifth ground rule or one of the ground rules is if the injured spouse attacks the betrayer, the less likely the betrayer is going to be to participate, the less willing they are to participate. And so what happens is, is this gravely injures the couple's ability to recover and that defensive behavior that they have keeps 'em in a posture of self-protection instead of a healing posture, instead of a nurturing, healing, supportive role, they're feeling attacked and they're feeling defensive. They're focused on their own needs. Having an affair is obviously a very, very, very selfish act, very selfish behavior. But what people don't understand is that these people, when they're feeling defensive, they're not in a healing posture, they're still thinking of themselves,

Morgan:

Right? It's like that fight or flight mode where if they're being attacked, the only thing their body knows to do or their mind has to do is I've got to get away from this. I've got to get away from being

Brad:

Attacked. The spouse who had the affair, you have to be honest, you have to be transparent, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. But the spouse who's been betrayed, this doesn't necessarily automatically give you the right to become emotionally abusive or verbally abusive either.

Morgan:

And it's probably very hard not to be.

Brad:

Yeah, it's very hard not to be, and you feel like this is kind of your divine right. You cheated on me, I get to treat you however I want to. An attitude like that is only going to keep you stuck in the recovery process. And let me just say this in the beginning, it's very hard not to feel a sense of entitlement and not just in the beginning, it could be for several months, but having a sense of entitlement, you owe me that, especially when it comes to talking about this. Those are things that you have to work through. But if you have this, you betrayed me, now you have to walk the line, walk the line, walk on eggshells. That long term does not work out into very good marriage. That works short term when recovering from an affair because it helps, but it's not really the way to rebuild a marriage either.

Morgan:

And that also can be helpful when if you start to find yourself going into that process, into that negative cycle, that 30 minutes, keeping it short, will help you to not start becoming that critical, that angry person.

Brad:

Would you say it's the idea of open limitations? You can bring up a question really at any time as time goes on, and there's still the need to talk about this with open limitations. You're able to talk about it at any time, but no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. Really any question, and we're going to talk about in a minute, the types of questions you don't want to get into and ask. And it's really anything that makes you more obsessive, like sexual details or love letters or correspondence of that type. Just seeing I love you, that makes it worse. But what I'm trying to say is if you find yourself talking about this and it's not being productive, you feel like you're getting angry and heated, there is the need to talk about it. But how we talk about it's so important. So

Brad:

If

Brad:

You find yourself really in the first three minutes not getting anywhere talking about this, you're better off taking a break for at least 20 minutes because again, how you talk about it's so much more important than what you talk about. And the reason I say take a break for 20 minutes is our heart rate gets around a hundred beats per minute. We enter that fight or flight mode, and what happens is blood is leaving our brain, it's flowing to our feet, and we're no longer thinking objectively. We're no longer being really rational. And that's when you're more likely to have cases of domestic violence or people punching holes in the wall or just doing whatever, just doing really stupid stuff.

Morgan:

That physiological response,

Brad:

You have a physiological response. And so if you find yourself getting there, what you can do to make this time more productive is take a 20 minute break. You can turn off the lights in the house, turn down the temperature in the house, drink something cold, and doing those things, breathe deeply from your stomach. Yeah, definitely breathing deeply, taking deep breaths like that just in and out, doing at least six deep breaths a minute.

Morgan:

And that's with your

Brad:

Stomach or 10 deep breaths a minute breathing from your stomach area. And all this does is it helps you cool your body down, helps you lower your heart rate. So this becomes more productive. We're dealing with trauma and when we have trauma, heart rate rises quicker. Things are more likely just to kind of snap. Things are more likely to kind of get out of hand. And so if we follow these steps that I'm outlining, it's going to be much more productive. And as the injured spouse, that's going to help you heal much quicker because the betrayer isn't going to think, okay, they're crazy or Why talk about this? You're letting me know when I tell you new

Morgan:

Information.

Brad:

You're going to snap, you're going to snap. And I shouldn't tell you, and this is what you need to know as the betrayer is, the more they know about this, the better they're going to feel and they're actually getting better. Kind of as we said earlier, it's like cough medicine, it tastes horrible and you have to pinch your nose and tilt your head back and you don't want to really do it. But in the couples who do this or the couples who do the best, and that's why we're telling you to do this,

Morgan:

Right? It's like the healing medicine. You're just talking about it. It's

Brad:

Painful and there's not a better way. There's really not a better way. And so

Morgan:

It's worth it.

Brad:

So these are the ground rules. And so that's kind of where we're at.

Morgan:

Okay, so now we're going to talk about,

Brad:

We're talking about ground rule six.

Morgan:

That's right. Ground rule six, which is basically talk about the affair, talk about what's gone on with compassion and care. One major reason we want to keep the discussions to a shorter length of time. It's because it can become very difficult to keep the conversations productive and kind. This goes back to how it's talked about, but we need to keep our cool the best we can, especially as the betrayer when discussing such heed information or really both betrayed and the betrayer. This doesn't mean we don't have bad moments though

Brad:

That's

Morgan:

Expected.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right with the trauma aspect that we've talked about the last several weeks, there is going to be people snapping. And what I mean by snapping people getting upset easily, you have the exaggerated startle response. You're going to be,

Morgan:

Those nerves are

Brad:

Exposed. Yeah, your nerves, your anxiety, your heart rate increasing, people are going to be upset talking about this. That's not a reason not to talk about it either,

But it needs to be done in a way, the best possible way where people feel safe, people feel secure, that kind of thing. And so part of this, us talking about it with care and compassion is the injured spouse. What I tell people to do in my office is as you talk about this, really journal your anger on the paper journal, invent your feelings on the paper, and it's just as effective as really talking to somebody about it. You talk to somebody, they're going to be able to give you ideas and feedback. You're not going to get that when you journal or write down your feelings about this. But if you turn, like I've mentioned repeatedly throughout our broadcast today, if you turn and direct your anger towards your spouse in this, they're not going to really want to be there to help you no matter how much shame or guilt they feel, their guilt and shame is actually going to keep them from talking to you about it more because they're like, gosh, I've hurt them so bad and I see them getting angry and upset and

Morgan:

I already feel bad.

Brad:

I already feel bad about it. I don't want to make them feel worse. I'm only going to feel worse,

Morgan:

And I feel worse now because I'm making them feel bad.

Brad:

And so what you need to do is really journal about this. And what I mean by journal is just take out a pen, take out sheet of paper or journal book or a diary. Write in that your emotions, your feelings. Write letters to the affair partner. Write letters to your spouse.

Morgan:

Don't send them.

Brad:

Yeah, do not send these letters and take it outside and burn it. Get it all out. Get it all out of your system. Put it all on paper. You're only writing for yourself. It's nothing that your counselor needs to see. It's nothing that your spouse needs to see anybody else needs to see. You can write prayers to God, you can write whatever you want. But the thing is, the process of writing has the same effect on you psychologically as verbally telling somebody that. And so when you first start this though, there is a side effect. You're probably going to be sad for a couple hours and you're probably going to be angry after you do it for a couple hours, maybe even a couple of days. It just kind of depends, but it's just like cough medicine. It helps you deal with it. And like we talked about when we were talking about trauma, you have to deal with this.

Avoiding it is only going to keep you there. And so journaling about this, writing about it, putting it on paper, what that's helping you do is you're getting it out of your mind. You're getting it on paper, you're not thinking about it as much, but it also, it's going to help make these talks that you guys have much more productive because you're not channeling your anger and these negative emotions onto your spouse who's betrayed you. And they're going to feel like, okay, I can talk about this. We can talk about this more. I'm not saying that you should not tell your spouse, I'm really having a bad day. I really feel down. I'm not saying that you should feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your spouse, either one of you, but if we just kind of always unload on them and verbally bash them, and in some cases verbally abuse our spouse, they have no incentive because they feel like they're only doing more damage by talking about this with you.

But if you journal it on paper, put it on paper, it's going to help you find peace, it's going to help you find relief, it's going to help you find really just that peace of mind and it's going to help you have more care and compassion. It's going to make this a much smoother process. So you got to channel this stuff on the paper, and then what you can do is just take it outside and burn it and you can watch it go. It's just going to bring more closure and more peace. And that's something that you're going to have to do several times. It's not a one-time event, but it's going to be something that you do repeatedly throughout the process for the next several months moving forward. But it's going to bring you healing. And the more you do that, the people who do that the most, Morgan, are the ones who get the best care, who get the most out of counseling.

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. I can see that in my own experience. I've found that journaling is very, very helpful. And it's funny that you say that you'll be upset or angry for a few days and you don't even realize it sometimes that, gosh, yeah, I'm in a real poor mood and it makes sense. I just journaled out on this

Brad:

Book, all these feelings. It is bringing things up to the surface, but that's not a reason, in my opinion, that's not a strong enough reason to not do it

Morgan:

Right. It's a good thing because you're purging, you're getting it out.

Brad:

Well, you're getting it out, you're with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

Absolutely. And so basically, journal, journal, journal, the people who do that recover the best. It's going to keep you from getting riled up about this.

Morgan:

Absolutely. And the thing that Brad was talking about with limiting that time that you talk with each other about certain issues, especially if you find yourself going off into getting upset, but as you journal, you can write down the questions or comments, write them down, save them for that time, think them through a little bit because then when that limited time that you have that you've placed that limit, you've placed on your conversations, you're really going to have a more productive conversation. You're really going to have more of your questions answered probably in a more productive way because you've thought them through, you've really written them out and kind of considered, what do I really need to know? What do I really want to know? And then you're able to ask it in a way that's easy for them to answer and for you to follow up and ask further questions to get real answers. So that's a good thing to remember there too.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 10: Why People Cheat, What Makes A Cheater?, What Leads To Infidelity? Why Did This Happen To You?

Brad:

Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else. I'm no longer communicating with you because this negative cycle has beat me up where I'm not asking for my wants and needs.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs and fidelity trust and cheating in your relationship. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. We're on episode 10. We're talking about why do people cheat, why do they cheat? And I think that this one is pretty straightforward. But before we get started, I want to remind you to go to healing broken trust.com/episode 10. That's healing broken trust.com/episode, the number 10, episode 10, and download those free resources that will really help you to walk through this process to truly heal from what you're going through right now. So let's jump into episode 10 and learn why people cheat on our show. We've talked about the different types of affairs, but there is still this looming question of why do people cheat? So Brad, you want to begin to answer this question for our listeners?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, people cheat. There's three primary reasons why people cheat. The first two are not that common, and the third is extremely common. The first reason is sometimes people cheat because they're sex addicts. They have a compulsive tendency to act out. And like all addictions, it's negative impact on the addict and on family members increases as the disorder progresses. And what I mean by that, as people get deeper into this, it gets worse and worse over time. The addict usually has to intensify the addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And let me explain that. When somebody has an addiction, it doesn't satisfy what you start out doing in the beginning, typically doesn't satisfy those urges. So somebody can start with pornography and self-pleasure. A lot of people can stay there who are addicts, but most people will begin to escalate into other things where they start acting out with other people, they start going to prostitutes, they start seeing escorts, they start acting it out. And so over time, the addict will intensify their addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And that's where some affairs come from.

Morgan:

So that fantasy must then become a reality to further satisfy that addiction.

Brad:

And if you think about it, they've been basically viewing pornography. They've been viewing and breaking down mental barriers that most people have to an affair.

Brad:

They're

Brad:

Actually mentally rehearsing an affair when they're viewing pornography. Another thing that's going on is the other type of people who have affairs are the philanders. And I would say that's more an attitude than anything else. And this attitude says there may be something, this attitude of flander, they believe that cheating is okay for them to do. It's something that guys or girls do, and it's more of a rationalization. Okay, just as long as you don't get caught. Sometimes this attitude says there's no way a man or woman is supposed to be monogamous.

Morgan:

It's a myth, right?

Brad:

Yeah, it's a myth. You can't be monogamous,

Morgan:

Which is not true. It's not accurate at all. But they believe that.

Brad:

And this kind of attitude can lead to serial cheating and very flirting behavior, especially when their spouse isn't around. The attitude of the philander says there is nothing wrong with it. They may rationalize what they're doing or saying to themselves, as long as I'm not having sex with them or intercourse with them, it's okay. So kissing is okay. Spending time with them is okay. Sharing intimate parts of my life is okay because I'm not doing X, Y, or Z with them. And of course, they may even believe sex is okay too. Just don't get caught. And I've had different people tell me before that they viewed having an affair as a rite of passage. And it's something that men do as a part of growing up, as a part of maturing their certain

Morgan:

Rites of passages,

Brad:

Certain rites of passage.

Morgan:

And that's what we see in TV and movies all the time. Oh, you're a virgin. That's supposed to be some kind of bad thing.

Brad:

But there's people like that. There's attitudes that affect someone to have an affair, and we're going to get into that in a little bit later. But most individuals I work with, I would describe them as someone who's burnt out in their marriage.

Morgan:

So that's the third category.

Brad:

That's the third category.

Morgan:

Most people fit into the third

Brad:

Category, and we're going to spend most of our time talking about that. But these are people who are burnt out and there are attitudes that affect somebody having an affair. And there's those outside influences, family and friends. Have they had an affair? Have your mom and dad had an affair? If they have, you're more likely to have an affair yourself or coworkers cheating. What are coworkers attitudes about infidelity? What was your family's attitude about infidelity, your friend's attitudes about infidelity and pornography? Like we mentioned earlier, when you're viewing pornography, you are mentally rehearsing an affair. Those are outside influences that affect somebody, make it easier for somebody to cheat. Romance novels. Reading that, you're also mentally rehearsing having an affair. A lot of our entertainment, a lot of movies, a lot of different cultural things that we have, they really do not support the idea of monogamy. And they make infidelity attractive. They make it funny, they make it make it okay, a normal part

Morgan:

Of. So society is what they're telling us, which is not true

Brad:

When you're exactly right about that. So those are attitudes. Those are cultural things. Those are outside influences that make it, that can be associated with family, friends, coworkers, viewing pornography, reading, romance novels or entertainment. Even celebrity culture, it makes it easier for somebody to cheat.

I would even say even certain types of jobs make it easier for people to cheat, especially if you travel for a living, you're in certain professions where it's just easier to cheat. And so affairs really start Morgan here, and I want to get into the root of why people cheat. It really starts with the negative cycle that a couple is in. Most couples I would say are not happy if they're having an affair. The exception with that may be the philanders or the sex addicts. I would say almost everybody else, if they're in this burnt out category, they're not happily married. If they're cheating, I wouldn't classify that as a good marriage. And let me explain the negative cycles, because this is where infidelity starts. There are three kinds of negative cycles. There are the first kinds, the most common kind, and this is a negative cycle where the person who's having the affair is a distancer. They are somebody who is more withdrawn, not very emotionally expressive, typically in the relationship. They avoid. They avoid, and they may not start that way in the relationship though they may get to that place because they feel like they don't matter to their spouse.

Morgan:

They don't know how to ask for wants and needs.

Brad:

They don't know how to get. And so they may get to that point with their spouse. So they may not start that at that place of being a er. They may start at a place of being a pursuer

And a pursuer, and you can go through and listen to our recordings on that. We've talked about that before. So go listen to that. Who are pursuers and who are distancers. But pursuers are the ones who fear being abandoned, fear, rejection. They want to be close. And if they don't get it, they'll escalate their attempts for attention and connection into things like blaming, criticizing, demanding, and distancers are people who will kind of shut down emotionally. They will shut down because they don't think engaging with somebody who's upset with them is going to be that productive. And so that's where negative cycles typically start. And that's the most basic kind. And the person who cheats is a distancer. They're the one distancing from connection

Morgan:

To the relationship and their spouse, right?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

They're more invested in the affair or other things than they are in the relationship at that point, wouldn't you say? Or is that kind of later on?

Brad:

That's later on. But that's true. But that would happen later on. They become more interested in that for right now before the affair even starts. And you can have a pursuer who becomes a distancer. You can have a pursuer who also gets burnt out because they don't feel like they're getting through and they start shutting down emotionally, and then they have their own affairs. So that's where affairs start is that you have a negative cycle. Couples get into, and we've talked about how to get out of negative cycles, we've discussed that. Go listen to that. And so that's where a fair start. Morgan and every relationship has a negative cycle. And that first one, that's the pursuer. Distancer is the most common type of negative cycle. Then there's a negative cycle where couples are basically fighting all the time.

Morgan:

So they're pursuing, pursuing attack. Attack.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, the one who's been distancing feels like they're getting attacked by the pursuer because the pursuer is like, I'm not getting through to you. So they're

Morgan:

Blaming,

Brad:

Criticizing, demanding. It escalates. Then the distancer feels like they're getting their back against the wall, so they'll attack back. But they're primarily a distancer, and so they're just attacking back,

Morgan:

Can't put baby in a corner, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And they may be getting resentful as well. And so that's the second type. Then the third type is really what I would consider a void avoid. And these can be looked at as two different types of situations, but basically what they do is they avoid each other and they can avoid each other. They don't like conflict, they don't like stirring things up. And that can be both of them. So the pursuer, even though they want that connection, they're not really criticizing or blaming because they don't like conflict. So they're stuffing what their feelings are.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

Then the er, they're stuffing what their feelings are and what's going on with them.

Morgan:

And sometimes they think, oh, everything's okay. There's no argument.

Brad:

Well, exactly. They think they're in a strong marriage. And I got to tell you, a lot of people have affairs in this kind of situation

Morgan:

Where one pushing stuffing and they're really not being honest about how they feel.

Brad:

Well, even in the avoid, avoid situation, a lot of people have affairs in that. And then the other type of avoid, avoid affair is an affair where the person who was the original pursuer gets burned out, like I mentioned a moment ago, and they're avoiding, they're distancing, and you have the ER as well. And sometimes the one who was the original pursuer, like I said, they'll get burned out and they'll distance. Then the one who was the original ER will see, oh my gosh, they're pulling away from me. I don't like this much distance between us. Then they can become the pursuer.

Morgan:

So they sort of switch roles.

Brad:

Yeah, they'll switch roles. But basically I'm saying all that to say, well not spend a lot of time on that just to say this. That's where fares start. They start with a negative cycle because a couple does not feel close and people can say they have a good marriage and still have an affair. And I would say for the most part, that's probably hogwash unless there was a sex addiction affair or a flander is affair. And the people who are most likely to say that were probably people who were the avoid, avoid. Well, we never fought,

Morgan:

So we must have had a good relationship, but they weren't close to each other emotionally, they just assumed all relationships were like that. Typically,

Brad:

Yeah, we're good because we don't fight. They may have good communication skills, but they're not really talking about anything

Morgan:

Of significance, of

Brad:

Significance, emotional, their relationship and their feelings. They may be great at communicating about picking up the kids and planning their retirement and things like that, but not what's going on between them as a couple,

Morgan:

That deep emotional intimacy.

Brad:

And so affairs start with the negative cycle. Morgan, this leads into a progression of things that happen. And this doesn't necessarily happen in any chronological order necessarily. These things that I'm discussing, negative cycles create the affairs. Affairs start with a negative cycle, and that leads to the person who's having the affair, who ends up having the affair, feeling like they're burned out, they're tired, they feel beat up by the negative cycle, they end up feeling like they're not good enough for their spouse and because they're tired, because they're burned out, because they're beat up by the negative cycle. They don't ask for their wants and needs.

Morgan:

And I think it's very interesting to point out that you say they're beat up by their negative cycle. A lot of people think well beat up by my spouse, but no, it's beat up by that negative cycle. It's what's happening between you that's wearing you out.

Brad:

What's happening between you that's wearing you out's that negative cycle. And so the spouse will end up not asking for wants and needs. They stop reaching out, they stop communicating. And what happens is resentment develops. Sometimes they're really angry with their spouse, just resentment develops. And that's really important because from there they start feeling alone. They start feeling sad and depressed, they start feeling numb. And what's really happening, Morgan, is they're caring less about their marriage or their relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And so there's these different things that happen because people get beat up by the negative cycle, resentment develops, start feeling alone, start feeling sad and depressed, start feeling numb, and they're starting to care less about maintaining that marriage, maintaining that relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And the other thing that can happen is they're closed off to their spouse emotionally and they may be seeking connection elsewhere. So sometimes people are easy fruit for somebody else to initiate with

Brad:

Them,

Brad:

But at times people could be resentful enough where they're going to go initiate with somebody else.

Morgan:

Wow.

Brad:

And so that happens as well

Morgan:

And they begin to rationalize, is that right? Rationalize this connection with a friend who is just a friend or just a

Brad:

Coworker. And Morgan, what's happening is if Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else, I'm no longer communicating with you

Because this negative cycle is beating me up or I'm not asking for my wants and needs. What happens is closing a door to their spouse and they're opening a door to someone else, and then they're going to share with them. Contact can be made with the affair partner and sometimes they've been friends with the affair partner all along. So when the betrayer gets involved or the involved spouse gets involved in the affair, it's typically somebody they've known for a while. It's generally not somebody they just met. It's not a one night stand type of thing. Typically it can be though, but they have contact with the affair partner. It's somebody that they may have known all along and the affair makes 'em feel good about themselves.

Morgan:

If there's depression, it lifts the depression.

Brad:

If they've been depressed, they've been feeling alone, they haven't felt attractive. If they haven't been having sex with their spouse and they get this attention from somebody else, they begin to feel good about themselves. They like how they feel. And Morgan talked about before in understanding why affairs happened like we've talked about before in finding meaning. The question to ask to understand why this particular affair happened is to ask how were you different? And that's generally how people feel about themselves. How did you feel about yourself? How were you different? How did you feel differently? How were you different as a person

Morgan:

While the affair was happening,

Brad:

While the affair was happening? What did you like about yourself?

Those are all things for people to consider to talk about because that's generally what's going on. And so far we have a fair start with a negative cycle that leads people to feeling burnt out, tired or feel beat up by that negative cycle. They don't feel like they're good enough for their spouse anymore in a sense. They may already feel rejected by their spouse, maybe even abandoned by their spouse. At times, people do feel that way, and that happens more often than you would think. So they no longer ask for once and needs. There's resentment there. They start feeling alone, they're sad, they're depressed, they feel numb, and then they start caring less about the marriage. Those are the things that can happen in any order that get people to start caring less about their marriage or relationship, and they're easy fruit for an affair

Brad:

To

Brad:

Be picked off or to initiate their own, and they have contact with the affair partner who may be somebody they've known all along. It may not be somebody new, and what can happen from there is they develop feelings for the affair partner or they can fall into limerence,

Morgan:

Which

Brad:

Is a romantic love, love addiction, obsessive love infatuation,

Morgan:

But it's not based on a reality.

Brad:

Yeah, that's not based on a reality,

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

It's based on a fantasy,

Morgan:

But

Brad:

Then they can develop feelings for that person and the affair will be going on. It's happening once the affair is discovered. It can make it difficult for some people to end the affair once they've been caught once they've been found out, but that's the general framework of why people have an affair. A lot of clients have discussed this with people who've been involved in an affair, and I would say the overwhelming majority of people who've cheated, have cheated because of what we talked about just a moment ago, feeling burned out or tired, beat up by the negative cycle, and they even feel beat up by the negative cycle of avoid, avoid because they don't think they matter anymore to their spouse. They feel like they're not good enough. They feel like they're not wanted anymore. They have real concerns about it, and so they go through this progression, this stage of feeling like they can't communicate, they can't share. Their spouse isn't there for them. They're no longer dependable. I can't go to them. They're going to be angry with me. They're going to be upset somehow. I don't make them happy.

Morgan:

Somehow I'll fall short or I'll fail or I won't measure up to their expectations,

Brad:

And part of this is so they go through this serious of progression, this psychology of betrayal. They'll go through the psychology of this mindset of someone who cheats. They'll develop, they'll have contact with the affair partner. The affair will start, feelings will develop for the affair partner. The affair will happen and will be happening. Then once the affair is made known,

Morgan:

Because it always will eventually,

Brad:

Yeah, typically it's more often than not, it's made known. Then Morgan, once it's made known for some people, almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? We'll keep talking about this. Thank you for listening today. Yes, have a wonderful week guys. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 13: What Will Make Them Stay, Leave, or Want Me Again? Stuck In Ambiguity, Feeling Confused?

Brad:

I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous and planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This is the podcast for you, and we're on episode number 13, and we're talking about factors that influence ambiguity or ambiguous feelings, and we're going to talk from the perspective or the question of what keeps me feeling so confused. Now, this is an important episode, but I want you to also know that you really need to go and listen to episode 12 that's really talking about should I stay or should I go? So download episode 12, and it's a good idea to listen to episode 12 before you listen to episode 13, which is the one we're about to play.

So do that. Make sure to listen to episode 12 and then come and listen to episode 13. And I want you also to remember that you have free resources waiting for you on the internet at your disposal, at the fingertips, at your fingertips. If you'll just go to healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's Healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's the number 13. Grab those downloads and you can also on that website, healing Broken trust.com. You can leave us a voicemail as well. Just go on there, leave us a voicemail, let us know if these resources are helping you. Let us know what you think about the podcast. Obviously go to iTunes and leave us a review if you love it and tell your friends about it and leave us a voicemail on our website as well. So don't forget to download your free resources, healing broken trust.com/episode 13. Let's get started.

Brad:

Almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? I want to spend a few moments just talking about this, the things that most affect ambiguity, and I would say on this, it's really the factors that influence uncertainty for a spouse to choose to stay in. Factors that affect a spouse who's going to leave. I want to just go over these because they can help save your marriage, help you guys work through this a little bit more on what the spouse who had the affair is thinking and the spouse who was betrayed, what they're considering,

And these are things that I hear by no means is this list exhaustive. I've got 20 different things here. There could easily be 40 things, but I just want to go through this. One of the things that's really important for injured spouses that affects if they want to stay or go is the amount of deception involved by the one who had the affair, the amount of deception that they used to cover their tracks. Were you lying to me face to face? I've kind of felt like something was a little off. Did you lie to your spouse when this was happening? That's going to affect their ability to trust in their ambiguity,

Morgan:

Kind of your blatant lies.

Brad:

Yeah. Do they approach you? I feel like you may be cheating. Is everything okay between

Morgan:

Us? Oh, no. No, not at all.

Brad:

Yeah, not at all. I love you. No, I'm happily married. We're okay. A couple months later, you find out that they have been cheating. That's going to affect your, should we stay or go?

Morgan:

Right? Right. They're going to go back to that moment. Another one would be if it was witnessed by the injured spouse as it actually happened, as it physically happened, if they saw you with them, if they saw it, that could really influence their ambiguous feelings as to whether they should stay or go or if it should even remain intact. So witnessing the event is a big one.

Brad:

And Morgan, that's very important. If you actually physically saw what was happening between the two people, that's going to affect you. And what I'm talking about specifically is sex. If you saw them having sex, that's going to affect, if you want to stay or

Morgan:

Go,

Brad:

How much the injured spouse feels like they're being lied to, how much honesty is they're there. That's really what I'm talking about. Are you being honest with me?

Morgan:

Do I know what honesty looks like on your face?

Brad:

Yeah. How can I read you? How can I trust you? Are you being honest with me right now?

Morgan:

Another one would be what the marriage was like before the affair. Was there a negative cycle that was happening before you even discovered this or before it even led to an affair? Right. Brad? That's a big one. That

Brad:

Is super important. Morgan. Along with that is the uncertainty of the spouse who's been betrayed if it will happen again, or do they know? What kind of reassurance do they have of will it happen again? As long as that is a huge question in their mind, they're going to be uncertain about st staying or going,

Morgan:

Especially if this wasn't the first time they discovered that you had cheated. That's a big deal. The other one, the sincerity, the seventh one, the sincerity and remorse of the involved spouse will determine the level of uncertainty about the future of the injured spouse.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, that's a very good one. Being sincere. How sincere, how remorseful are they? Do they care about me? And that really goes both ways. Sometimes I've worked with people who had an affair, and I want to really make this really an exclamation point with what I'm trying to say here. I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work. So when the person who had the affair saw the one they betrayed, really care for them after their affair was made known, that is what helped them choose to stay in the marriage,

Morgan:

Kind of re-engage.

Brad:

Yeah, and that has

Morgan:

Happened a lot.

Brad:

Yeah, believe it. That has happened a lot. And so yeah, that sincerity and remorse, just knowing you're cared for, that's really what that is saying. I care about you and you have to show your sincerity and remorse. There's no shortcuts with that. More than another thing is, has the one who's been betrayed, the injured spouse, been betrayed before in a previous relationship

Morgan:

That would really put someone on edge, definitely a human lie detector at that point. It's happened to me before. How can I trust that? It's not going to happen with you. And if you're doing that, if you're betraying me, it's not as much of a surprise. I think the next one, the attitudes of family and friends who know about the affair. What are their attitudes? Are they encouraging you to try to work out your relationship or just encouraging you to leave?

Brad:

Yeah. Are they friendly towards your marriage? That can be a key one. Does the injured spouse have children with the betrayer?

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Affects uncertainty because we're getting low on time. I'm going to sort through some of these religious views about divorce and remarriage. That's important. How much has a negative cycle affected the couple's ability to discuss it, the affair, or even feel close? So there's a negative cycle that happens before the affair, and obviously there's a negative cycle that affects a couple's ability to recover

Morgan:

And to discuss the affair.

Brad:

And if the injured spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out. That's also a factor. Another factor is for the injured spouse, is the betrayer getting help if they're a sex addict or a flander, are they getting help for this? Am I seeing some real changes inside of them? If as long as there's a huge question mark around sex addiction or the morality or the values or the lifestyle of the philander, as long as there's not any progression, there's no help, visible help being made or changes being made, people are going to be a little bit more uncertain about staying after they've been betrayed.

Morgan:

Right, right. That makes sense. What about the involved spouse?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, the involved spouse, there's a few things for them as well that affect that level of ambiguity that's in them, that uncertainty about seeing and working it out. Number one, I would say is the quality of the marriage before the affair. That's super important. How do I know that things will be different? And many times they want to leave because they don't know that how deep was their feelings for the affair partner or how deep are they currently for the affair partner?

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

Some people get stuck in that limerence, which we've talked about. How long and how deep was the relationship with the affair partner? How long did this affair go on? How deep did it get? And I would even include with that is how much fighting has gone on since the affair was discovered? That's an important part of choosing to work it out because people can really feel helpless and very

Morgan:

Hopeless, really stuck in that negative cycle too.

Brad:

Other factors that go with this is does the betrayer have kids with their spouse at home? Does the betrayer have their own kids with their spouse who they cheated on?

Brad:

That's

Brad:

Going to make them more likely to want to work it out? Religious views about divorcing remarriage and if the involved spouse feels like they, and here's, and this is also important, Morgan, if the involved spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out.

And Morgan, this is so important for both, is both people need to know that they're cared about, that their spouse does love them, that they really are cared about. That's significant towards working this out towards ambiguity. But those are some factors that influence ambiguity. And we've discussed the psychology of the betrayer, the mindset of someone who's having an affair, the thought process where they're at in the marriage, faires do not happen almost in a bubble. Yeah. Well, most of the time in a healthy marriage, in a good marriage, sometimes people mistakenly think they're in a good marriage because there's not any conflict. We have good communication, but they're not really communicating

Morgan:

About wants and needs.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, they're not really emotionally engaged with each other. They're really good roommates maybe, and people want to know that they're desired and wanted and really cared for. And when that's uncertain, that's when affairs happen. When that's uncertain in a person's mind, they're more likely to cheat.

Morgan:

They begin to care less about the marriage.

Brad:

They begin to care less about maintaining that relationship for emotional

Morgan:

Reasons, and that usually happens over time. Wouldn't you agree or could it be?

Brad:

It can. It depends. Okay. But it varies.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Well, thank you. You've been listening to How to Recover From An Affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. Have a great week guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 26: Why Do They Lie?