Transcript:
Brad:
Yeah, everybody knows that when you get betrayed, there's a deep traumatic pain associated with that. But people don't really realize what it's like to be Benedict Arnold, what it's like to be a traitor. To betray your spouse. People don't really realize just what kind of shame and pain the one who's unfaithful carries with them.
Morgan:
And the loneliness, too, I imagine.
Brad:
Yeah, there's a lot of loneliness. There's a lot of pain associated with that.
Morgan:
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Morgan:
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Morgan:
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Morgan:
Welcome to Healing Broken Trust podcast, with Brad and Morgan Robinson. Today, we're asking the question, why does the betrayer become so defensive and sometimes want to leave, when we're talking about the affair?
Morgan:
So Brad, let's talk about this. Why do they become so defensive when you're just asking them questions, or you're just even having a conversation about what happened. Why do they become defensive?
Brad:
Morgan, that's a really good question. I think part of that has to do with an emotion that we really haven't spent that much time talking about on the podcast, and that's the emotion of shame. It's a huge roadblock in the affair recovery process, because when shame is present, people begin to get really defensive or they do think about leaving. They may think about leaving the relationship, or at the very least, leaving the room. They feel this sense of self-hatred that comes out, so it can become a really terrible part of a couple's negative cycle.
Morgan:
Okay, so they basically shut down. Is that part of it?
Brad:
Well, when there's shame, there's really, the two most common times that I've seen shame show up is when you have somebody who ... the affair is just talked about over and over and over again, and the affair, it's the whole topic of conversation. They're not seeing the one they hurt really moving forward, and they begin to feel hopeless. They begin to feel helpless. They're not seeing that they're able to heal. So then they start feeling this shame. They begin to feel this defensiveness. Sometimes they'll even feel shame just because of what they did. They feel like a bad person. Maybe they've struggled with shame in other ways in their life, just feeling unworthy or not good enough or inferior. So they'll act out that shame, and it just compounds it more, because now they have an affair to prove how unworthy they are in their mind.
Morgan:
So you said a lot there. There's a couple of things that really stick out to me, as you're saying what you're saying. One of them is that sometimes they come to the relationship with shame from their past and then can shame sometimes lead them to have an affair? Then it just becomes a roadblock through the healing process? Or is it usually just shame that's a result of the affair, and it never was there before. That's just part of something I heard you say.
Brad:
Yeah, I think it can happen both ways. You know, I think people can never really struggle with shame in their life, but they're gonna struggle with shame after they see their spouse get betrayed. But usually I think people who have an affair typically have a history of dealing with shame. Because really, when you deal with shame, you feel shame because you feel rejected first. That's where shame comes from. Some of you guys listening are gonna say, "But they rejected me. Why are they feeling shame? They're the one that had the affair. Why are they feeling shame?" People can feel this self ... Shame is really this sense of self-hatred. It starts maybe as a tiny voice of guilt. I feel bad. I'm a bad person. I feel bad about what I did. That's guilt. Shame is, "I'm a bad person."
Brad:
So shame ... you'll see all the core emotions that a human being can experience in young children, in infants. You'll see sadness, fear, hurt, maybe anger, joy, surprise, and excitement. Shame is another core emotion like that, but you won't see that develop until maybe eight or nine months in an infant, and that's because they've had enough experiences of feeling rejected or feeling distance from their parent. Like, "My parent's not responding to me quick enough." So they begin to feel shame.
Brad:
So shame really develops out of this feeling unwanted, feeling rejected. Part of it is ... This is kind of digging below the surface. Couples get into this negative cycle about the affair when they're talking about it, but when they get defensive ... What is really defensiveness all about? It's really about saying, "Hey, I'm not this bad guy. I'm really not a terrible human being. I really didn't mean to hurt you the way I did." That's when people go into explanations. That's when people aren't listening. That's when people start to give. That's when people get defensive. That's when they turn the corners around, and say, "Well, you do the same thing. You weren't there for me, either."
Brad:
What defensiveness is really saying is, "I'm not a bad guy. I'm not who you think I am." What triggers that is the voice of shame. That feeling of being inferior or seen as stupid or incompetent or moral, being seen as an imposter, like you don't fit in, feeling unwanted, rejected, inefficient, or deficient. It shows up as defensiveness. If you're the one who was unfaithful, and if you explore where that defensiveness comes from, I would assume that you would probably find that voice of shame there. That voice of shame is, "I really feel inadequate. I really feel like I'm not good enough." This is really important, Morgan. "I feel mad at myself for what I did, but I'm showing that anger towards you. I'm directing my anger towards you."
Brad:
I remember our little son, when he was maybe a couple months old. I was holding him and I did what you're not supposed to do. I was holding him in a rocking chair, and I started to fall asleep, and he slid out of my arms. He had a little swing that he hit his head on on the way down, but he stayed asleep through the whole thing, and I felt horrible. I felt like the worst dad in the world, like a horrible parent. If he really had major head trauma, or brain injury, I would have felt ... That guilt wouldn't have just lasted for a couple days. That guilt would have lasted probably his whole life, maybe my whole lifetime. I would have just felt like a terrible human being, and so anytime it would be brought up, if you asked me, "Brad, why did you do that? Why didn't you just go ahead and lay him down and go to bed early that night?"
Brad:
Every time it would come up, I would really feel like a terrible human being. I would really get stuck in that shame, because it would be pervasive. There would never really be any relief to it. It would only really be my fault. That's how I would feel about it. That's where this defensiveness comes from in individuals who are unfaithful, is we're still talking about the affair. We're still discussing it, and you're not seen to get better. So this defensiveness keeps popping up, but the irony is, this defensiveness is coming from, "I don't feel like I'm good enough. I feel like I hurt you. I don't feel like a good husband or a good wife or a good boyfriend or girlfriend," but the irony is, the one who got betrayed, they're seeing this as, "You don't care. You're not remorseful. You don't care. You don't care a lick about my pain or my feelings." That's the irony, is they care. That's why they're getting defensive, and they're really angry at themselves about it, but the one who got betrayed doesn't see the remorse, doesn't see the compassion that they need to see-
Morgan:
Right, they just see this defensiveness. You're also saying that they begin to feel hopeless about it, and that's also a catalyst for them feeling more ashamed. Is that right? Because it's not getting better, in their eyes?
Brad:
Yeah, there's this catalyst, where they don't feel good. They feel hopeless, like we're still stuck in this negative cycle. It's been maybe a few months, a few years, and we're still here. A few weeks, I thought we'd be over this by now, but we seem to get stuck here. You feel like nothing I'm doing is helping you. You feel like you've got to monitor me. You get triggered. All these different things trigger you. I feel really bad.
Brad:
The longer they get stuck in that negative cycle, you're gonna keep seeing that shame pop up, but it's not just length of time, or feeling hopeless. It's just a guilty conscience is what creates that kind of shame. It could be like the moment of discovery. Everybody expects this Hollywood romance that, once the affair's made public, or I find you out, and I confront you about it, you're gonna drop to your knees and ask for forgiveness. I have seen that happen, I don't know, maybe 10-20 times. People get defensive. People get upset. That's not ... with it going on.
Morgan:
That's the norm. The norm is the defensiveness.
Brad:
Yeah, and if you're lucky, they tell you they had an affair.
Morgan:
Instead of you finding it out.
Brad:
Yeah. Through the affair partner or social media or emails and reading all the text messages, and what else instead of reading that. But people's shame gets in the way. Part of that is, maybe it is a hopelessness, Morgan, of people don't really ... It is false belief that people don't really heal from an affair, people don't recover from infidelity. So there's that belief that you can't really do it.
Morgan:
Then when they're getting triggered, or the betrayed partner is being triggered, and they can't seem to stop asking the same questions over and over, then it's sort of validated in their mind, that "Man, we're never gonna get over this. I'm never gonna be seen as someone loving or caring again." Or ever.
Brad:
But the one who was betrayed often needs to talk about it, often needs to be able to discuss it to move forward. So both people have different needs in this. The one who got betrayed, "Let's talk about it. I need to discuss this. I need to work through this. I need your help and guidance with this. Tell me the details. Tell me the things I need to know so I can heal from this." But the one who was unfaithful, "Why would I want to tell you that?" They get defensive. Maybe they feel criticized. That's obviously a common scenario in defensiveness, is you feel criticized, you feel attacked as a person. So they need to not be criticized, and they just need certain limits placed on how often we talk about it.
Brad:
It can't dominate our life. Maybe it's gonna dominate our life for the first weeks, but as time goes on, we don't need it to dominate our life. We need to go get help. We need expert care. We need to go see somebody who can really help us work through this. That's why we offer retreats. That's why we literally helped couples from all over work through infidelity.
Morgan:
From around the world, actually.
Brad:
Yeah, we've done a lot of that. But part of this is, different people have different needs as they work through this. That defensiveness often comes from a place of shame, which is really a harsh critical voice of self-hatred. Many times, betrayers just choose not to think about or discuss the affair, because doing so brings up such strong feelings of disgust that is really directed at themselves. But the one who got betrayed sees, "You're so disgusted and angry, and you're snapping at me." They think that you're snapping at them, like you don't like them, that you're upset with them.
Morgan:
Yeah, what are you hiding, kind of thing.
Brad:
Yeah, that, definitely. But it's like, "You just betrayed me. Why are you so pissed off? Why are you so angry?" I need you to be broken, and remorseful, and sorry, and to keep expressing that to me. I don't need to see this defensive side. But it goes back to that analogy, if our little guy had head trauma, and still had it, I mean, I don't know how you could live with yourself with something like that. You're gonna struggle with shame. So naturally, a lot of people who have an affair really struggle with that.
Morgan:
You could live with yourself. If your child out there does have head trauma, for some reason that he described, you certainly can live with yourself.
Brad:
Yes, you can, but that's the kind of thinking you have, is what I'm explaining. It's, "Oh, my gosh. How could you do this, Brad? How could you live with yourself?" So anyway-
Morgan:
You'd feel great shame, yes.
Brad:
But, people who experience the shame, they feel embarrassed, they feel unacceptable, they feel inferior, they feel inadequate about themselves. So those are all recipes for people not opening up. The people who are the most locked up, have their walls up the most, are people who feel like it's embarrassing to share about themselves. It's difficult to be vulnerable, because when you see who I am on the inside, if I let you really see me, you're not gonna like me. So that's a big deal.
Brad:
Morgan, another time that shame can really pop up ... We haven't really addressed this at all in our podcast. This is when I see shame the strongest. This is when people really ... There's the defensive side of shame, but then there's the shame ... Let me ... I've got this written down to remind myself. This is a direct quote from a client I worked with years ago. From someone who was experiencing shame, and this is the kind of shame that's gonna lead somebody to say, "I don't want to stay married anymore."
Morgan:
Okay, so that leads me to that question of how do you know they're wanting to divorce or separate because of shame, instead of just not loving you anymore, you know?
Brad:
Yeah, I think people obviously, when you have an affair, you're probably not in love with your spouse.
Morgan:
Because you haven't cultivated that relationship in a while, probably.
Brad:
You know, if you're in love with somebody, why would you cheat on them?
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
Human beings ... There's actually research that shows this. There's different segments or different people in our society say otherwise, but human beings are actually wired to be monogamous, believe it or not. Animals in the wild that take years, a prolonged amount of time, to raise their young, are monogamous. They will have the same life partner. So human beings do that. There's other animals that do that, as well. But it takes us years to raise our young. We're wired to be monogamous. So when people are in love, obviously it's easier to be monogamous.
Brad:
When people feel close to their spouse, it's easier to be monogamous. When you feel like you can get your needs met, it's easier to be monogamous. When you don't feel rejected or have resentment toward your spouse, those are things that create ... When you feel like you can share everything, those are conditions that help facilitate your being faithful.
Morgan:
Facilitating that being faithful ... One thing we were talking about right before we began recording, too, was the way you can know shame versus just being done with the relationship, is some of the words that people use. They'll say certain things when it's shame versus, "I'm just done with you, and this is over." Right? So you were gonna read that quote, because ...
Brad:
Oh, yeah. So when someone is experiencing shame ... and this is probably I would really say this is more of the shame when someone is wanting to leave. Honestly, sometimes people who are still involved in the affair may talk like this. Usually when I've seen people talk like this, Morgan, it's not just because of shame only. It's they may still be involved in an affair. I do not know your situation, as you're listening to this. I'm speaking generally. This is what I've tended to see, with few exceptions. So do not take this as legal advice or relationship advice. I'm just talking about this-
Morgan:
In general terms.
Brad:
... yeah. So someone might say, "I don't like him crying. I feel like I've hurt him enough. I feel like I've let him down. I don't feel adequate for him. I've done nothing but pull him down. I'm convinced she'd be better off without me. I'm afraid of discussions about the affair coming back up. I know I need him, but he's better off without me." When you hear that over and over and over again, and that's the dominant thing. If your spouse, if you've gone to marriage counseling and they're not really participating in marriage counseling, and you hear that, and that's kind of where they're at.
Brad:
They just talk about the whole time, how they feel so much shame. They may blame it on their childhood or they may blame it on other stuff. When I've seen people really get into statements like that, sometimes if I didn't know at the time, but later it came out that maybe they were still seeing somebody. That's why they felt so much shame. They had a guilty conscience. It wasn't just the shame of defensiveness. It was shame on a different level, because they were still involved with somebody else.
Morgan:
So they're better off without me. So because of that you should just go on without me. I wonder if ...
Brad:
Well, I'm hiding this secret, and I'm doing this terrible thing to you behind your back, and I feel like a terrible person for doing this for you, but I'm not ready to come back home, or I'm not ready to end the affair, or I don't think I can get my needs met with you. When people tend to have that kind of shame ... Usually when I've seen that kind of shame, it's because they had some sort of secret. That usually, not always, but usually there's a secret there. That secret most often is, I'm not ready to end the affair yet.
Morgan:
But couldn't it also mean that they are feeling just ... What's the word? They're feeling like they are hopeless, and maybe it could be that way?
Brad:
Yeah, I think, sure. I think people could do that. I've just got ... I'm thinking about what you're saying, Morgan. I think that can be true, but maybe I'm not ... I'm just reading the words from a client who once said this. But there is almost this other behavior where people sound like ... I mean, I don't want our audience to be confused, and I don't want anybody to listen to this and then use this as-
Morgan:
Gospel.
Brad:
... yeah, gospel, or as a bullet to shoot your spouse in the head with. But it may be enlightening, if that's your scenario. It's really ... Those are the words, but it's more in the delivery. It's this, how somebody, they'll pour out their heart. It's like somebody gets drunk, and they pour out their heart, and they talk about all their insecurities and how they're not a good person. It's almost like that. Like, "I'm not good for you. I don't deserve to have you. I've got this shame. I just feel like such a bad person." They tend to repeat these things over and over again.
Morgan:
Without the intention of opening up and sharing themselves and staying in the relationship?
Brad:
Well, they get stuck in the ... There's different scenarios here. There's the defensive side of shame these individuals could have. Not everybody who gets defensive or has shame is in this camp that I'm talking about, but there are limited situations. So some of you guys listening may be in this, but most of you are not gonna be in this kind of scenario. But usually when people talk like this, and I'm not an actor, or I would act it out.
Brad:
But it's just a different level of shame. The people get stuck in it, because they know they're not doing something right. They know they're still being unfaithful. That's why they have it.
Morgan:
So they're kind of saying-
Brad:
It's a shame on a different level, Morgan.
Morgan:
So they're kind of saying, "I'm feeling so terrible, I'm seeing all these things. I just don't think that I'm good for you. I just don't think that we should be together because you're hurting, so I'm just gonna go over here, and I'm gonna let you be. I'm gonna leave you alone, and just take myself out of the relationship that way."
Brad:
Okay. No, it's ... Yeah, I mean, it could be like that, but it's ... This is their core message. "I don't think I'm good enough. I think I've hurt you enough. I've let you down enough." It's their core message. And everybody I've had who's had shame that I've worked with, and I thought, "Man, they got a lot of shame we gotta work through. This shame is hurting our progress." They feel so bad that the shame is hurting our progress. Everybody that I've worked with like that, with maybe limited exceptions, minor exceptions, was still seeing somebody.
Morgan:
Oh, I see.
Brad:
This is their common message. I can think of a handful. I've had several people like this. It's kind of what they always come back to. It's not something they just talk about every now and then. Because some people are gonna talk about that like, we're getting caught in a negative cycle. Maybe I've hurt you too much, that sort of thing. But when it's all they talk about, or it's the common theme, they're hiding something. They're still involved in an affair.
Morgan:
Okay.
Brad:
Is that clear?
Morgan:
Yeah, I think it's clear. So then we talk about the antidote to shame, and if this antidote does its job, then you can know that this was just a clear shame, that they're feeling bad. But if it doesn't do its job, then you can probably guess that there's something else there that they haven't let go?
Brad:
Well, no. The thing that we're gonna talk about in a second, as an antidote, that's not gonna eliminate ... Because that shame is coming from doing something wrong, that they know is wrong. You can't convince yourself not to have it. But everybody that I've dealt with, when I'm working with them, I'm thinking, "Man, they've got so much shame. If I could find a way to get them out of this shame, then we would be okay. I could help this marriage move forward." Everybody that's had that kind of shame, they've always had something hidden or secret they weren't sharing. What they were usually keeping hidden and secret was that the affair was still going on.
Brad:
That's what produced that kind of shame. Then there's this other side of shame that's normal for everybody who has an affair, which is, "Man, I feel really stupid for doing this. I feel terrible." It's like when I was describing about me seeing if I had hurt my son permanently by dropping him. If he was still lingering, and had side effects from that, that's a normal shame. But this is a different type of shame on a different level.
Morgan:
Is it a shame that keeps them from really being there for their spouse, and really going to their aid and really doing everything that they can to help them through this? Is the reason, for example, in this quote that you read, it says, "I'm convinced you'd be better off without me." It's almost their out. They're saying, "Well, you're better off without me, so I'm gonna vamoose." But if it was more of a shame that was pure and healthy, then they'd be like, "I think you'd be better off without me, but I'm gonna do my darnedest to help you in this moment." Is that fair to say? Or is that not always the case?
Brad:
Well, I think ... You'd be surprised. Usually the folks that will end up coming to therapy when they are still involved in an affair, and they have this kind of shame, they're nice people. They're agreeable. They're nice. Maybe they're even laid back. So they'll come to therapy because their spouse is requesting it.
Morgan:
But outside of therapy, and-
Brad:
Well, they may be the ones ... They may be willing to be kind and reassuring, and that kind of thing. But they're not gonna really talk about the affair much. But, Morgan, most often this type of shame is because they're still involved in the affair, or having some sort of contact with the affair partner. They're keeping some sort of secret. That's what's creating this super level of toxic shame.
Morgan:
And that's why they would be so defensive, because they don't want to talk about it. Because it reminds them how bad they've been, and are still being.
Brad:
Well, there's the other side of shame that's not super, super toxic. The super, super toxic shame is when they're keeping a secret.
Morgan:
Okay.
Brad:
But this other side of shame, that we spent the first half of today talking about, is really just a normal shame that everybody experiences after they've been unfaithful.
Morgan:
I've done something terrible. I feel so bad, and I feel like an imposter. That kind of shame?
Brad:
Yeah. Like, "I hurt you, and I get defensive." That kind of thing. That's a normal shame.
Morgan:
Okay. So I think that leads us to ... The next question is, why do people stay stuck in shame? I think we've talked about it. We've kind of talked around it a little bit. Really just to nail it down, lack of hope, fear it won't get better, that sort of thing. When does shame show up in the healing process, Brad? When does it typically show up?
Brad:
Oh gosh. I think shows up during the affair, after the healing process. I think both people need healing, and Morgan, this is really important. Everybody knows that the one who got betrayed, they're in pain. Culturally speaking, every culture in the world knows. Everybody knows that when you get betrayed, there's a deep, traumatic pain associated with that.
Brad:
But people don't really realize what it's like to be Benedict Arnold. What it's like to be a traitor. To betray your spouse. People don't really realize just what kind of shame and pain the one who's unfaithful carries with them.
Morgan:
And the loneliness, too, I imagine.
Brad:
Yeah, there's a lot of loneliness. There's a lot of pain associated with that. It's not something that people think about. We're kind of wrapped in our own hurt when we get hurt and betrayed.
Brad:
But the one who is unfaithful, they often have just as much pain as the one who gets betrayed. But it's a different kind of pain. They're struggling with this self-hatred, this guilt. That's the normal type. But the ones who are struggling with it the most in this super level, this super toxic level, are probably still keeping some sort of big secret, or maybe still even involved with the affair partner. Because they'll say things like, "Hey, I think I oughta just be done with the marriage. I think you're better off without me." They're gonna keep coming back to it. I'm just thinking of people I've worked with. They love their spouse. That's why they're coming. If they're willing to come to therapy, they love you. They want to work on it. They want to help you do better, but there's this additional thing that's this big secret. I'm still involved with this person.
Morgan:
So they're not reinvested in the marriage or the relationship. You can kind of tell that they're just not invested in where they are.
Brad:
Yeah. Morgan, the last few minutes here. Let's talk about the antidote to shame.
Morgan:
Yes.
Brad:
The antidote to shame is really rooted in self-compassion. It's really being able to say to yourself, "I did the best I could with the information I had at the time." You know, "I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. All things considered, this is what I knew. I really was doing the best I knew at the time." You've gotta let that become your motto. You've gotta let that become the thing that you live off of, because shame is a destructive emotion. There's nothing really productive that comes out of shame. Especially in the healing process, or much in life. Because shame causes to eliminate ourselves, and pulls us out of the relationship.
Morgan:
Causes us to hide, and pull away, and withdraw.
Brad:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Using an affirmation like, "I did the best with the information I had at the time," that can help begin that process of self-compassion.
Morgan:
I love this other part, too, where as a spouse, we can come beside our partner and say, "You know what? I've been there, too. I have felt that way, as well." You can't really get to that point until both people are really talking about what's going on. The person who is feeling the intense amount of shame, if they can talk about the shame, maybe talk from the shame. And their partner can come alongside them and say, "You know what? I've been there, too. Me, too." Sort of be there with them. So that they can have that self-compassion, that acceptance of themselves. "I am not bad, I have done bad things." Partnering with each other so that you can really build each other up. I think that's a great way to combat this shame that screams pretty loud.
Brad:
Yeah, but ultimately, you're gonna need to get help to work through this. You're gonna need to get great help to work through this to have a great marriage again. So you've gotta go get help, gotta work with experts. That's why we offer retreats. That's why we put this information on here, so you guys know who you can trust. You've gotta go get the right help. Morgan, I think that kinda sums up our topic of shame today. Hopefully this isn't too confusing, because that's not what I want to do.
Brad:
I don't want to confuse anybody, and honestly, I don't want to confuse anybody and I also don't want to indict anybody. Like, "Hey, Brad said this on the podcast, so this is what's going on." I'm not a part of your guys' relationship. I'm speaking about what I've seen, and general patterns that I've seen. So I can't say that about your relationship, that if somebody's going through this, that it really means that they want to be done, because I don't know. Or that they're still seeing somebody in an affair. I don't know that, for your situation. I'm just speaking about patterns and what I've seen, dealt with. Do not take this as legal or-
Morgan:
Relationship advice.
Brad:
... relationship advice-
Morgan:
Because we have not entered into a therapeutic relationship with you, so it can't be taken as therapeutic advice. That's why we do coaching. That's also why you can go to healingbrokentrust.com. You can set up a coaching call, and Brad or Daniel or Randy, one of our therapists, can get a better picture of your relationship, and give you more therapeutic advice in a coaching session. Is there anything else you'd like to leave our listeners with, Brad?
Brad:
No. Thank you guys, for listening. You've made us the number one podcast for affair recoveries, so thank you very much for doing this, and enjoying us.
Morgan:
Absolutely. Have a great week.
Morgan:
Thank you for listening to this episode of Healing Broken Trust podcast. Are you ready to take the next step? Go to healingbrokentrust.com and schedule your one on one coaching call today. That's healingbrokentrust.com.
