Brad:
You're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse. For them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this.
Morgan:
You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you want to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. You've made it to episode 22 where we address the O. So important question of how do we talk about the affair. Some say it's not important to talk about the affair, that it's useless and will just make things worse, and others say you must talk about it and you can't heal without talking about it. So we're going to lay the myths to rest and talk about what really needs to happen for you to fully recover. Also, we want to hear from you and get your perspective on things. So if you want to share your thoughts or maybe you have some questions, then go on over to healing broken trust.com. Click on the tab called Weekly Calls and leave a voice message for us there. You can also download the free resources that go along with this episode@healingbrokentrust.com slash episode 22. That's episode and the number 22. And let's get started.
Brad:
This show we're talking about how to recover from an affair, the steps that need to be taken to recover the time. Basically everything that a person needs to know to work through this. We are discussing that in detail, in depth, and so you're not going to really hear this anywhere else. This is one of the big issues that people struggle with. We are here to help you guys work through this. In fact, we had an email that was sent into us that really, I think I've heard a lot from people, and I'm glad somebody sent this in. And it basically is this, Brad, how do I talk to my wife about this? She told me before I had this affair. I never want you to tell me if you've ever cheated on me. I don't want to know that because I've been betrayed by someone else before in a previous marriage.
And really to answer that question for that person, I would say most people before they're betrayed, they do not want to know any details. They would rather just not know because what I don't know is not going to hurt me. But after people know they've been betrayed and they know they've been cheated on, most people want to know in great detail about the affair. And so it's kind of different rules. Usually the person who's been betrayed, sometimes they'll say things like, I will leave you if you ever cheat on me, if you ever sleep with anybody else, I'll leave you. But after an affair, after you're really dealing with it and you're not in hypothetical situations, most people choose to stick around and try to work on it, and most people want to know about it because that's only way they find relief in healing.
In fact, only about 7% of people don't want to know anything about the affair. They don't want to talk about it. If your spouse falls into that 7% of people who don't want to know anything about it, who don't want to talk about it, you can't make them talk about it. You can't tell them anything about it. You just can't give them information. They don't want to know. And so you kind of only go as far as that injured spouse wants to know and the types of questions that they have. Hopefully that answers the listener question. Morgan, we've been talking about the ground rules on how to talk about an affair, and one of the things we said is how you talk about this, it's so much more important than really what is said. It needs to be in a climate of compassion, care, understanding. And so just to kind recap what we said is people need to schedule time to talk about this.
Morgan:
That's right. Yeah. Set aside that time and that journaling will help you to organize your thoughts and feelings so that you can make that time more productive. You talked about open limitations a little bit.
Brad:
Yeah, we talked about that a little bit last time. We're going to really get into that into detail today. The person who had the affair really needs to have a vomit session where they just get everything out and just purge. Just get it all out there, just get it all out there. And then common reaction is that people find this is not an easy process. It's like cough medicine. We talked about that. If people are talking about betrayal, they get angry, they get upset, and it's like cough medicine for both people
Morgan:
Because the medicine goes down and it's not tasty. It doesn't feel good at all.
Brad:
No, but it helps people get better.
Morgan:
The benefit is definitely seen
Brad:
Over time. And so sometimes spouses who've been betrayed, they can be very emotionally abusive, verbally abusive. And that's why we were talking about journaling as well, is just channel those emotions onto paper. And that way you're not lashing out of your spouse because they feel quite
Morgan:
Abused,
Brad:
Abused, also demotivated,
That kind of thing. The injured spouse is attacking during the discussions. You're only hurting the person who needs to be there as a healer for you. They're not going to be motivated to be there. And basically the last thing we left off with is it's important that spouse is not interrupt during the conversation. Discussing affair can get heated very quickly, and really you should try to do everything in your power not to let this happen. If you can learn just to sit and listen, not interrupt, write down questions, write down comments that you have in your journal, you're going to hear things that you may not hear. If you interrupt, you're going to hear things that you wouldn't hear if you interrupt them. And so that's what we left off is don't interrupt each other. Let the betrayer finish their thoughts, finish their sentences. If you feel like you're catching them in a lie or a white lie, really try to not interrupt them because you're not going to get all the information you need if you sit there and you pounce on them if you think you're making a mistake. And so that's kind of where we left off, Morgan. What are the other ground rules?
Morgan:
The next one really is it's important to discuss the affair in a way that gives your spouse reassurance that you're reassuring them that the affair will not happen again. And that's the most important thing. They need to know why, of course, but they also need to know this isn't going to happen again. It's not a pattern of betrayal and maybe it has in the past, but it won't go any further. So don't avoid or deny the affair or minimize the damage or fall into denial because it will only create more distrust. And that's the biggest thing is you want to create trust. And that's going to take a lot of time. If you as a betrayer find yourself becoming defensive, say to your spouse, Hey, I know I've hurt you. I want to make this better and I'm committed to the process, but I'm feeling attacked and I think we need to take a minute and breathe.
Brad:
Yeah, and Morgan, I'm glad you said that because it's so important in this process, the betrayer needs to be able to come to the injured spouse and just share everything and get it out there. And they need to get it all out
Morgan:
There and trust the process.
Brad:
They need to trust the process. But I like what you're saying. The betrayer needs to be proactive in this. They need to be the ones initiating conversations at times. They need to be proactive. They need to be
Morgan:
Open and honest. You need to take responsibility for the actions that they took, but also help your spouse by realizing that they're hurting and stop them from spiraling downward in uncontrollable anger by going to them and being open.
Brad:
And Morgan, what I like about what you just said is you're showing that important idea of I'm willing to do whatever it takes.
Most betrayers, they want to suppress information, but if you go to them and you initiate conversations about this, you go and you're willing to talk about it. You just tell them information about it. That helps the injured spouse, since they don't have to protect themselves as much, they sense you are here to help me heal. You are here to help me. I don't need to be in a self-protective mode. I don't need to keep my walls up. And so what you're saying is really important. One of the things that's really important almost as a word of caution is if you do not talk about this, if you don't discuss the affair, this is really the best way for people to recover from this is to talk about this, to deal with it upfront, to really just almost hug a cactus in a way. You just have to really deal with it. And if people are unwilling to discuss this, it results in a much slower recovery time increases the chances of divorce,
And it creates more distress. Like I said last week, the more that the injured spouse knows, the more they feel like they're healing. You do not want to fall into the trap as the betrayer of suppressing information. You feel like you're suppressing this because of your guilt. You don't want to make your spouse feel worse, but that suppressing of the information is actually causing them to feel worse, and it's going to keep you stuck in guilt longer. And suppressing information is going to keep you stuck in the fantasy of the affair, the secret of the affair, and those secrets in that fantasy. It's going to keep you from becoming emotionally invested back into the marriage and relationship the way you need to be.
And so the more you share, the more you're deconstructing that fantasy of what the affair was, and it's bringing you more into reality. You are entering the real world, you're entering into reality again, and it's helping you lose those feelings for the affair partner. And it's helping you reconnect. In fact, what it's doing is it is helping you reconnect with your spouse, but it's bringing a new level of intimacy that hasn't been there because there's a new level of honesty. You're being more open about your feelings, you're being more open about what you need from your spouse. And so that's why this step of talking about the affairs is so important.
Morgan:
Yeah, absolutely. But also the next point that we wanted to make was betrayers will need to revisit many different aspects of the affair multiple times. We've talked about that on the show quite a few times. Those obsessive or intrusive thoughts that you keep asking the same questions because you find and learn new things each time you ask the question. But discussing how they met with the affair partner once will not accomplish. It's usually more than once, typically that they'll ask the same questions, but each time it's discussed, you'll learn something new and that'll in turn help you to recover. For many couples, it does get annoying that they have to revisit the topic again and again, but involve spouses. The betrayer must maintain their composure. You must maintain your composure and let your spouse know that you're there to help them to heal and to recover. It's a huge, it's going to make a huge difference.
Brad:
And Morgan, one of the things that you said that's real important is you're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse, for them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this. The injured spouse, it needs to be talked about. It's wrong for professional to tell somebody, look, it's been six months, it's been a year, it's been five years. Never bring it up again. That's just absurd. And it really shows a lack of understanding of the trauma recovery process for somebody from this type of particular trauma.
Morgan:
And the time that's passed, I mean, it could be two years, three years, 20 years, but pain is still there.
Brad:
Oh, yeah. Time doesn't heal
Morgan:
Anything. It's discussing it. It's talking about, it's working through it. I mean, some healing may occur, but the full healing,
Brad:
No, not the full healing. So people need to talk about it multiple times. There's different reasons why people need to talk about this multiple times or the same question multiple times. I would say the first reason is there's shattered assumptions that the injured spouse has about the betrayer. I no longer feel like I know who you are, so they're trying to reconstruct who this person is. Part of it is I just can't believe this. This has blown my mind. It's shocking. It's shocking. So just, I can't believe they said this. They did this. You're trying to reconstruct it. Another thing is it's like watching a movie like Inception. I love that movie,
But there's different layers to that plot. But every time you watch a movie like that where you talk about an affair, you're uncovering different layers of it. You're seeing something that you haven't seen before. And the more that the injured spouse can talk about this process, it, it's actually bringing healing to them. It's helping them become more complete. And you as a spouse who's had the affair, that's part of you being a healer, is really being patient with that, showing that you're willing to do whatever it takes. And it's going to take sometimes some questions literally hundreds of times to get answered. And that is frustrating, but that's part of for the maximum healing process to take place. It's going to be several times of just asking the same questions.
Morgan:
And there's one thing that you did mention earlier in one of the points that you made about the vomit session, making sure that you get it out there, get it all out. But one thing that I think ties into this that we need to probably remind people is if you don't vomit it out and new information gets in there, wedged in there where you haven't told everything, it's almost like starting over, like you've said before in the discovery process. It's a shock. So each time you discover a new layer or a new piece of information, it's like, oh my gosh. It's like going right back to the beginning of the hurt of the pain. It's pulled up, the scab has been ripped off. So it's important to get all of that information out there, but then you're still going to have those same questions over and over. But I mean, your story is the same because it's the truth. It just needs to be understood and rethought through again, probably.
Brad:
Yeah. Yeah. Morgan, you brought up another good point too, is really with the point that you made about
Morgan:
Having a vomit session, making sure
Brad:
That it's out there because when you bring it up like this and you have a vomit session or a purge session, you just get it all out and information is discovered later. That person, sometimes they feel like, gosh, I'm just starting over, or they feel like even, what else do I not know? Yeah, what else do I not know? And it keeps them hypervigilant on the defensive or wall is up.
Morgan:
And
Brad:
So that's more of the reason for you just to get everything out at once, as much as you can get it all out there. And that way they feel safer. And sometimes couples do struggle with that where, gosh, we're in this for three months or even a year and I find out something new, or even I've had some couples, five or six years later, they find out something new and it just kind of sets some, brings 'em back down on the ladder. And that's the importance of getting it all out there. And here's the thing too, I want to say about honesty is when you're honest about this, people stick around when they feel like you're being the healer and you're being honest. People do not stick around when they feel like you're being lied to. So if you're worried about, gosh, if my spouse really knows this or if they know that they're going to leave me, chances are they're probably going to stay. As long as they feel like you're being honest with them and you're transparent with them and you're really trying to rebuild things, they leave when they feel like, I'm not getting anywhere, you're not helping me.
Morgan:
And think about how light of a load you'll carry with being able to tell them everything and then getting through it and healing. I mean on your part as the betrayer as well, your conscience will thank you
Brad:
And you're going to have a lot less guilt, that kind of thing. Absolutely. There's some areas that you want to stay away from. We really advise couples to stay away from anything that makes you more obsessive. Sometimes people ask, what do I share? What kind of questions? What do I share? Do I share that I slept with this person? Do I share that on our anniversary, we did this or I did that with the affair partner?
Morgan:
How much information is too much information?
Brad:
Yeah. Well, and here's the thing, there's kind of a protocol for this. There is some things that I would strongly encourage people not to talk about that, but most of the time, whatever the injured spouse feels like they need to know. I'm okay with that. Like I said earlier, only about 7% of injured spouses have no desire for any sort of details. Two thirds want to know great details. And so the three areas are graphic, sexual details, love letters, and anything that makes the injured spouse more obsessive about the past.
Morgan:
And you want to avoid those, right? Yeah,
Brad:
You want to avoid those. And generally the obsessiveness comes from graphic sexual details and love letters
And graphic sexual details are really hard for men, especially because they'll picture their wife with another man, very visual doing certain things, and men are very visual. So it's much to overcome. And I found that people get stuck in thinking about this. Men will get stuck or even women get stuck in thinking about the sexual part because they don't have all the information. And what happens is their mind is just kind of going through all the information they know. And part of that is the sexual details because they're trying to understand what happened, why it happened. And so they're just going through all this information. And part of that's the sexual details. One of the best ways I know how for people to overcome the sexual details is really to understand the whole affair and to get all their questions answered. Because once they have everything answered, they have stopped obsessing of the unknown of the unknown, and it's just obsessing period. And that causes them to get stuck on the graphic sexual details. The other area you do not want to know is love letters. That generally is harder for women. And let me say this though, it's not just hard on women, it's hard on men too, but it's very hard to see that your spouse may be bashing you
In a letter, but praising somebody else, talking positively, someone else, giving them a nickname that you do not have, they may have a different type of relationship than you've had with your spouse. I had a guy that came in a little over a year ago. His wife had an affair last summer, and when they came in, they came in about April or March, and this was really interesting. No healing had virtually taken place because hers was an online affair with somebody in a different state, but he had all this information online and every day he looked over it, just poured over it, read everything, revisited everything. So the guy was very depressed, very obsessed, still not a lot of things made sense. And so there was no healing that took place.
Morgan:
You kind of kept him right there.
Brad:
Yeah, it kept him in the beginning of the process and nine months afterwards, he should have been in a very comfortable place, not perfect, but in a place where I definitely feel like I'm moving forward. I have hope. I know we're working through this. I've worked through a lot of the major part of this. We should have already been there. It's been nine months at ground
Morgan:
Zero,
Brad:
Nine months at a really, really bad place. You want to avoid graphic sexual details. You want to avoid love letters, text messages, emails. Unfortunately, that's how so many people find out about an affair nowadays. It's an online affair where they got kind of these text messages and smartphones and things in Facebook. That's how people find out. But you really want to try to avoid kind of bearing yourself in that and revisiting it because it's only going to keep you held hostage.
Morgan:
So one thing we have here to avoid the scenario, we recommend writing these questions down, sleep on them. Ask yourself, is this information, is it really necessary for my healing? Sometimes just writing it down will help you kind of get through those feelings, but sleep on it.
Brad:
Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb. Just give yourself some time when you get the question you want it answered right away, but give yourself some time
Morgan:
Because
Brad:
With these types of questions, they tend to be re-traumatizing. They tend to open the wound back up. They tend to pour salt on that wound and it doesn't heal. So give yourself some time. You don't need to really jump ahead into this. And I would, to be honest with you, I really encourage you not to ask questions about sexual, obviously, did you make love? Did you have sex? That kind of thing.
Morgan:
Will I need to worry
Brad:
About STDs? STDs, were they on birth control? That's fine. But things like sexual positions, lingerie you really need to avoid. And there's some more graphic questions that you could ask that I don't want to say, but you really want to avoid that because it just keeps you stuck.
Morgan:
Yeah,
Brad:
It retraumatizes you.
Morgan:
So Brad, we are going to out of time here very soon, but would you like to talk about the open limitations?
Brad:
Let say, let me just summarize the last two steps here. When discussing an affair, it's important to do what we call open limitations. Where as time goes on, you're probably talking about the affair for hours on length, especially in the early weeks. You're talking about the affair constantly. But as time goes on, that idea of open limitations is at any moment the injured spouse is able to bring up a question and it's discussed for no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. And part of that is because the longer you go on, the more that's shared, the more that's told can cause people to get angry
Morgan:
Escalation.
Brad:
And if it's not done, you get into that negative cycle of blame, withdraw, one person's blame and the other one's withdrawing. But if you do that, that tends to be the best way to do this. It's just discuss it for no more than 15 to 30 minutes and it helps people really begin to recover and you're just kind of doing it throughout your
Morgan:
Day. And if you do the journal method, like what we had talked about in the last show, if you write it down and you really think through, okay, what do I need to know? What questions do I have? You're going to make those conversations within 15 to 30 minutes. You're going to make them more productive. You're going to get somewhere instead of falling into just a big argument.
Brad:
Yeah, exactly. Just limit yourself to 15 to 30 minutes per question or part time that you discuss this, and you can talk about it really at any time. Obviously not when the kids are around, but really at any time. So the injured spouse has the freedom to ask this really at any time they feel the need to, but you're not discussing it at length. You're able to kind of resume your normal life together
Morgan:
And 30 minutes wraps up and then you're able to go and cool down and really
Brad:
Breathe. And then kind of the next thing is because the betrayer many times feels like this is hopeless, I can't help this person heal. I can't be forgiven. And I notice people when they've dealt with the affair for a long periods of time, like a year or more, they start feeling like, gosh, nothing I can do is going to have any effect on this person. And so this is where that care and compassion comes in. Is what you are doing really helps me,
Us talking about this? You don't understand how much this helps me. I appreciate this. I notice what you're doing. I notice what you're contributing, praising them for what you're getting because it's only going to help them give you more. And so that's important, and that is many times the injured spouse feels like I don't owe them anything, have a huge wall up. That is true and that needs to be worked on, but I can understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying that's necessarily true that you shouldn't try to help them, but if you give them appreciation, give them positive feedback. I notice what you're doing. These small things matter. These things that you're doing matter, they're going to have more motivation and sometimes they're just completely demoralized
Morgan:
And ultimately you will get the healing that you need as the betrayed spouse. So it's a win-win situation. One person feels like they can be open and honest and sharing, and then you also get the healing that you need, the answers that you need.
Brad:
Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.
