Transcript:
Brad (00:55):
You know, they see that negative cycle of avoidance emotional distance or fighting or arguing the pattern that they've had for years, that emotional RET that they've got into that is more of a deterrent than the affair partner.
Morgan (01:10):
So they're really trying to move away from pain towards pleasure instead of really totally towards pleasure. It's really away from the pain because they don't know how to connect and have that relationship. They really want hello and welcome to healing broken trust podcast. I'm Morgan Robinson, and
Brad (01:29):
I'm Brad Robinson.
Morgan (01:30):
And welcome to today's show. First, we're gonna talk about the kind of relationship the betrayer has with the affair partner what's going on in the mind of the betray during the affair, and then we're gonna talk what keeps them from recommitting or reinvesting back into their marriage. So Brad, why don't we talk about, you know, the typical affair relationship? What does the typical affair relationship
Brad (01:54):
Look like? Okay, Morgan, that's a really good question. I want to preface by saying that when I talk about this, I'm talking about which probably generally true, and not necessarily what's specifically true about every affair and every relationship that somebody has with their affair partner. And so I would just say that this is probably generally true most of the time, and this is typically what I see, but I just want to preface that because there obviously are gonna be exceptions to this. So, Morgan, the question is, is, you know, what does a typical relationship look like? I think one of the assumptions and this definitely was for me is that when somebody's in an affair, it's usually rainbows in sunshine. That's what
Morgan (02:41):
People usually think.
Brad (02:42):
Yeah. That's what people usually think. And that's honestly what I thought, like when someone's in an affair, like, you know, it's a fantasy, there are people who feel that and experience that. But I wouldn't say that's probably true for a very large portion. It's not like going to Disneyland or Disney world and having a time of your life and you just love it and you're riveted by it.
Morgan (03:03):
So it's not always limerence.
Brad (03:05):
No, it's not always limerence and it's definitely not something that is definitely rainbows and sunshine. I remember the first time I heard somebody describe how much fighting they had with their affair partner. I just was shocked by it. I couldn't
Morgan (03:19):
Believe it. That they would even stay with that person.
Brad (03:22):
Yeah. Yeah. They, I mean, there was a lot of fighting and I don't remember all the particulars, but that, that's the one thing that stood out to me. I was like, wow, there's a lot of fighting. I was just shocked by that. And so that's kind of a, and it turns out, you know, as I've learned more over the years about this, that's in some ways that's kind not common. It's not always the case, but it's, it's
Morgan (03:42):
Pretty common. The fighting and the arguing and all of that is common.
Brad (03:45):
Yeah. I mean, like in the beginning of an affair, obviously you're gonna have, you're gonna feel good. You're gonna feel wanted that person's gonna make you feel good and that, that sort of thing. But as the relationship progresses, it, it kind of turns into more of a, a real relationship where there's disagreements and fighting and arguing. And it's not, you know, this honeymoon type thing, it moves past that. One of the things, you know, when people are involved in an affair is that they're not really giving more to the affair emotionally of themselves to the affair partner than they do with their own spouse. It's not like they're opening a door and giving something brand new that they've never given before to their affair partner that they've never given to their spouse. Often with their spouse, they've been much more vulnerable and much more intimate, much more open than they have been with your affair partner. And the main thing they get out of the affair is just feeling good about themselves.
Morgan (04:47):
That's really interesting, Brad, that most of the time, it's about feeling good about yourself. It's not necessarily that they have this great intimacy with the affair partner. And I know we've talked a little bit about that before. Do you wanna expound upon that before we go to the next, what exactly are you talking about? What I'm talking about there is really that they're not necessarily giving more to the affair partner than they are to their spouse. We've talked about, you know, previously, you know, that the relationship is not rainbows and sunshine, that it's not, you know, this always full of love or whatever and happiness. And it sounds like to me that typically people, when they get found out or when it, when they try to turn the relationship into, when they bring the relationship out into the spotlight and it's found out, I imagine a lot of the, the mystical parts or what is it, what's a good word. The, the parts of the relationship that were secret and kind of exciting sort of dissipate because they've been found out it's, it's not as fun anymore. Do you
Brad (05:49):
Agree? Yeah, I would agree with that.
Morgan (05:51):
So what's going on in the affair that keeps them kind of there then if they're fighting and all of that, I mean, what keeps them with the affair partner?
Brad (05:59):
Well, that's a great question. I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, there's a limerence factor that we've talked about before and in limerence I'm not gonna go into all depth of limerence, but I'll just define it. Limerence is basically this feeling of infatuation or love sickness or romantic love that feel often in the beginning of a relationship that could keep people in with the affair partner. Typically when somebody experiences that they kind of feel like, man, I missed the mark. I married the wrong person. This is my soulmate. I didn't feel this with my spouse. When we got married, we had more of a companionship love. And we've, we've talked about that previously, you know what keeps them from? I'm go, just going back into their marriage. Honestly, it's gonna be something it's really gonna be their own beef or problems with that relationship. That's it's not like I'm leaving you for someone else.
Brad (06:49):
Often what people say when they're in an affair and they're unsure about recommitting back to the marriage. They're they say, I'm not necessarily gonna go leave you to be with that other person, the affair partner. Yeah. The affair partner. I might just, if we don't work out, I'm probably gonna end up on my own. It's not that I'm necessarily wanting to go be with the affair partner. It's I have problems with us and how we've been and how we've communicated and my own hurts and my own experiences with us. And so I'm not sure if I would want to be with either one of you and
Morgan (07:20):
Maybe just relationships in general, maybe they felt they felt jaded or hurt by relationships. And they've sort of become kind of numb to the idea of connecting. That might be one thing. Another might be, I've heard people say this to you, the affair partner needs me, so it's hard to just abandon them. So maybe that's one thing that keeps them with the affair. But how about we move to the next question? Sure. What kind of relationship does the betrayer have with the affair partner? We've talked a little bit about that, but do you wanna expound upon it?
Brad (07:55):
Yeah, Morgan, I would just say that they're really not typically playing on being with each other. Oftentimes when someone's involved in an affair, obviously there's gonna be people who are having an affair where they're actually planning on out, you know, but generally when there's an affair, that's not the case. They're not really wanting to do that. And there there's a percentage of people who, who do want that. And I would say it's probably a smaller percentage. The majority of folks, I would say they would prefer to stay married. They actually still care deeply about their spouse and their marriage. They just don't see an opportunity to have that again, you know, have a deeper bond with their spouse. They don't know how to get there and we'll get to that in a little bit. But typically the average affair relationship, they're not actually even planning on being with each other.
Brad (08:40):
They like how that person makes them feel. That person makes them feel good or they make them feel wanted or desired. And that's, you know, something that they haven't felt potentially for a long time with their primary relationship. So basically it's just about feeling good about themselves. Okay. Like I mentioned a second ago, you know, they honestly would prefer to stay married, but they don't see how connecting with their spouse or their primary relationship is possible, or they don't even know how, you know, then you, then you have to factor in, you know, they see that negative cycle, that's their, that negative cycle of avoidance of emotional distance or fighting or arguing, you know, just the, the pattern that they've had for years, that emotional rut that they've got into. And that's a big determinant and that more than the affair partner being sexy and attractive and desirable, being a learning that is more, more of a deterrent than the affair partner is that negative cycle.
Morgan (09:39):
So they're really trying to move away from pain in towards pleasure. Yeah. Instead of really, totally towards pleasure. It's really away from the pain because they don't know how to connect and have that relationship. They really want is that pretty accurate?
Brad (09:52):
I would say that's very accurate Morgan. They don't have, have a lot of hope that they can get their needs met in their marriage. And so that's really the primary reason. They are unsure if they want to stay together, it's not necessarily because they of how they feel for the affair partner. Obviously that happens. That comes up. That's not really what it's about all the time. And again, you know, most feel if they're not gonna be with or spouse, they don't necessarily want to be with the affair partner either. It's not like I'm leaving for greener pastures. Some do, but I would say most don't, you know, feel that way. Again, like I mentioned, the affair relationship is shockingly full of fighting, arguing a lot of mistrust distrust. What's also shocking is at the they're so easy and quick to betray each other.
Brad (10:40):
Interesting. Yeah. You know, they're often willing to betray each other and I've seen that happen a lot, Morgan, where they get at the affair partner and then they're ready to come back home, you know, be back in their primary relationship, their marriage. And then again, I would just say that individuals who have an affair really want to connect to their spouse, but they don't know how that's really what it's about. And I would even say that about limerence relationships the individuals I've had, who've successfully worked through limerence affairs. And you can learn again more about that in the li episode or the one on 10 types of affairs. And for those of you who are living it and have lived it, you know how tricky that is? I would say they deep down really do want to connect with their spouse, but they just don't know how and the negative cycle and those factors and all that goes into play.
Morgan (11:31):
So Brad, why do they hesitate on totally committing back into the relationship
Brad (11:37):
I'm gonna use clients' words, different clients' words that I've heard, and I'm gonna kind of use their language to describe this. So what would they say on why they hesitate and totally committing back into their relationship? They would say things like, I feel unworthy or unlovable all the time. I haven't felt good enough for a long time. They would also say this, and this is really important. Can I be forgiven? Will I always be on lockdown? I don't think I'll actually be good enough to make you forget is our relationship too tainted now, you know, is even coming back possible. Sometimes they would even say they feel they can't reassure their spouse because of what they're doing, because you know, they're not ending the affair. So it's like, how can I reassure you and come back? You know, there's such a hole in me.
Brad (12:26):
I know the right thing is probably come back to you and, and work on it for our sake. And it's just the right thing to do. But there's such a hole in me, left in me by our negative cycle and our pattern that I don't know if I can really stop this affair. And again, it's not that I wanna be with them because I would choose to ultimately probably not be with them anyway. But that person just makes me feel good about myself. They feel like they can't really reassure their spouse because you know, they're still doing it. It's like promising to never gamble again, as you're pulling the slot machines, you know, like, right. <Laugh> it's like, well, I can't that's, you know, I can't really tell you, give you that full reassurance that you need, that I'm gonna quit gambling. Because I'm pulling the lever right now. You know, I'm pulling the, the lever. I'm not ready to quit yet. Here's what here's what else they would say. They would say things like I don't deserve you anymore because you're making all these changes and growing and I'm a wrecking ball breaking crap up for us.
Morgan (13:27):
Wow. That's some great imagery. Really.
Brad (13:32):
I'm being that wrecking ball because if something had happens, it won't be as big of a hit I don't ask. You know? So, so basically if I'm a wrecking ball and push you away when we don't work out, because I don't have much faith that it will because I've been hurt now you're hurt. You know, I don't have this confidence that we're gonna be okay. So I'm this wrecking ball right now to push you away to actually, because I care about you to actually make it easier on you. So if you can start withdrawing too, you're not gonna get us hurt
Morgan (14:03):
By all this. The disconnect will be easier because I've just been hard on us. And if I just make myself look so ugly and terrible and awful, it'll be easy for you to let me go. And it'll be easy for the, this relationship to dissolve kind of thing.
Brad (14:18):
Absolutely. Another thing I often hear people say is I don't ask for, you know, their help because it's not right for me to ask or expect receiving that help because of what I'm doing. It's hard to tell you my needs and ask you to be there for me cuz of what I'm doing. That's not fair to you. So that's kind of, those are some things that I've heard people say before that causes them to hesitate in, you know, kind of fully recommitting.
Morgan (14:43):
That last one sounds like a lot of guilt and shame. It's like I can't ask for wants and needs cuz I'm so terrible. Oh yeah. That's how they feel.
Brad (14:50):
Well, and here's the thing, you know, to successfully re recover from an affair, it cannot be okay, I did this, I hurt you. I betrayed you. Now I've got to spend the next X number of time, years, months, whatever, kissing your butt, making it up to you like it, that just does not work long term. Like that's sometimes people talk about that. I've heard other people talk about it. It just doesn't work because you know, the end of the, at the end of the day, it's gotta be about both people being able to depend on each other emotionally, you know, people often get into an affair because they don't feel like they can fully count on their spouse to be there for them emotionally because of that negative cycle. If you, you don't have that confidence that your spouse will be there for you, it's just hard to really be vulnerable and let them in your inner world and, and count on each other. And so you have to have both people there for each other
Morgan (15:43):
Emotionally. One of the things often is that once somebody has an affair, they think, man, I screwed up so bad. I gotta really go to you and focus on you. It's wrong to talk about my needs. I see how hurtful hurt you are, you know, and maybe in the immediate crisis and the aftermath, you know, they're right. Maybe it's like, you know, maybe they're right. I just really hurt you right now. And I see your suffering. I can't ask you to be there for me, but to have a successful marriage, you have to really you think and feel and believe that you can, but you only get that through couples therapy. You're not gonna get that on your own, trying to work through this. You're just not gonna get there on your own. Like you need to get good help. You gotta, you need somebody who does emotionally focused couples therapy. Who's got training in that certification in that you want to go out with the best cuz right now your marriage needs that we're available. Okay. So we're coming to the end of our time today, but what do they feel will happen if they stay with their spouse? Cause that's another question that we, that we have
Brad (16:46):
Sure. Yeah. What they think if they, if they're, you know, if we stay together, this is what they're thinking is gonna happen. They're thinking in their head like, is my spouse gonna make me pay for this, you know, forever and ever, is this just gonna be a part of their ammo that they have, cuz they've used ammo before? Is this gonna be new ammo? You know, they're gonna say things like, it feels like I'm just going to have to prove myself to you. And that puts me back where I was in the first place before all this stuff happened. Like you didn't really trust me before. I didn't do anything wrong back then, but we weren't really connecting and feeling close. And so you were always kinda critical of me or upset with me. So it feels like I'm just gonna have to prove myself to you. And that puts me back where I was in the first place. Feel often to say things like if our mirror isn't strong, will I have to go to someone else again to get my emotional needs met. So if we don't repair and patch up what was going on and make us stronger than we were before, am I gonna do this again? And I don't wanna do this again.
Morgan (17:47):
So Brad, at this point, how do they feel about their spouse
Brad (17:51):
Morgan? Often what I hear is that they they'll say things like at the end of the day, spite of all of our problems that we've had in our relationship, you are a good person and there is love there for their spouse. And there is care for their spouse. Sometimes they'll push their spouse away again, you know, like we talked to about the wrecking ball, they'll push their spouse away during the affair so that their spouse won't get hurt so that they can live, try to have a cleaner conscience. You know, like if I push you away, if I start arguments, if I start fights, you know, we're, we're arguing and fighting. Then I can use that as justification to go have an affair. But at the end of the day, they really do believe their spouse is a good person. Them, you know that deep down they know their spouse is, you know, a good person.
Brad (18:33):
They know their spouse is an evil. That's how most people I would say I would and a word to summarize it. That's what I would say. Most people, how they view their spouse. And again, sometimes they'll try to push their spouse away while they're having an affair so that when it gets discovered, if it does, it'll be an easier impact on their spouse and then others will be kind of loving. And that's their way of trying to clean up their guilty conscience. They're trying to manage guilt either way. Like I'll push you away to manage guilt, but you know, if I can be really sweet and loving and endearing while the affair is going and you, you know, then you'll never detect it. Then I won't have to live with guilt cuz you'll never find out. And so they're both trying to manage your guilt and either strategy that they take, but they really do feel like their spouse is a good person.
Brad (19:24):
And you know, and this is what someone once said once is even if I wanted to, I can't stop loving in you overnight. Like if I didn't, if we weren't together, even if I wanted to, I couldn't stop loving you overnight. And that's what someone said when they were still seeing the affair partner. Like there's still a lot of love there. And as you guys can tell, as you're listening to this, this is complicated stuff. This is an easy stuff. And so if you guys need help, we're here go to he and broken trust do, and you can find out more information about working with us. And I appreciate you guys your time and you guys can make it. You can do this.
Morgan (20:00):
Absolutely. You can also give us a call at (918) 281-6060. You can talk to one of our client care coordinators
Speaker 3 (20:47):
As always. This information is for education and entertainment purposes only. I and.
