Episode Transcript
Morgan: Hello and welcome to the show, you're listening to how to recover from an affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. I'm Morgan Robinson, here with my husband Brad and we're talking about an important step to healing from the affair. Brad, you want to talk about what we're going to talk about today?
Brad: Yeah, we're going to explain a necessary and important step to healing from an affair. And I want to present a balanced view to this because this can be taken in such an extreme that it's very, very, very unhealthy for a couple and for their marriage.
Because ultimately what we're doing when we are recovering from an affair, is we are dealing with trauma and we are helping the marriage get back on track. We're not just helping one individual get back on track. And so that's what we are working for. And so what I want to talk about is really how we can have the betrayer become a supporter and nurturer and how that helps the betrayed or injured spouse heal. And there's a lot of things on the internet, there's a lot of services, there's a lot of different people who say after you have an affair, you lose your voice, you lose your opinions, you no longer have a right to have needs and you got to be a doormat for this person right here.
Morgan: That you have betrayed. Brad: That you have betrayed and that's obviously very short-sighted and very unhealthy because it's not taking into consideration the factors that led up to the affair and it's not taking into consideration, look we are rebuilding more than just one person who has been broken, we are also rebuilding a marriage.
Morgan: Right.
Brad: And so we're going to talk about some of the characteristics of people when they do this in a healthy way and when they do this in an unhealthy way. And we're going to talk about how this can really have a significant impact in helping a relationship recover from an affair. And then I also want to get into what does this mean when the betrayer refuses to be a nurturer and a supporter after an affair.
Morgan: What that looks like.
Brad: Yeah, what that looks like and what that could mean. And so first of all, I want to say this, I have never had a couple, except for one and I've worked with at least 200 couples through an affair, maybe 250, but at least 200 couples that I've worked with through an affair where if they followed this idea that we're talking about today that they recovered. They didn't fall back, they didn't backslide, they didn't divorce, they didn't separate, they didn't go downhill. They didn't just crash. And the idea is the one who has the affair becomes the supporter and the nurturer and they are honest. They are going to help their spouse heal and they are going to move forward as a couple. But when people are resistant and they are scared and they are still seeing the affair partner and they are dishonest, that really hinders their ability to recover.
Morgan: And they don't trust the process. They are scared because they don't trust the process.
Brad: Yeah, they are scared because they don't trust the process. And I've had several people where just sharing this with them, look you need to become a nurturer for them, a supporter for them, be honest with them about this, it's going to work. The odds are in your favor. And everybody I've worked with except for one person this hasn't worked with and the one person that I shared this with and everything I'm sharing with you guys today, this one person that it didn't work with was somebody that came in the first week of therapy, they discovered this in the first week. They came in that same week and I met with them twice. And the first week I'm discussing different things with them, the wife just found out the husband was willing to stay and wanted to work on the marriage. The wife encouraged him to be honest. The wife didn't like the fact that he was honest with her and that he actually had an affair with a woman and he was in his 40s and this was a woman in her early 20s. And she thought that God was giving her ministry to help betrayed women and she was well-off financially, they were both well-off financially, so she didn't need him for his money. And so God had spoken to her and said, "You are going to go help other women. You've got a new ministry." So she took this and ran with it and later called our office and was very upset that she didn't give her marriage a chance to heal and to recover.
Morgan: Instead she just left and said that, "This is my ministry. I'm not going to stay with my husband. "
Brad: And of course we encourage people after an affair to stay long enough to sort out what's going on and come to a decision and a conclusion you can live with.
Morgan: It's not based on a moment, second emotion, all of a sudden you just choose when you're in the worst part of the pain.
Brad: Yeah and so that's the one exception to this. Everybody else has always worked and I can say that confidently that's my experience with this; when the person who has had the affair is honest and they're willing to do whatever it takes and they're a supporter and a nurturer and they show their shame and they show their remorse, they've always made it. It's always worked except for that one time and that was in the very beginning. And so we want to present a balance approach to this because I'm saying you got to be honest. You've got to be, I don't want this to come across as one-sided, you've got to be a nurturer, you've got to be a supporter. This doesn't mean that you are losing your rights. This doesn't mean that you are losing your voice. This doesn't mean that you don't have a right to be hurt from things that may have led up to the affair. I have a couple that I've worked with where in this particular situation, the husband, he was the one betrayed and before all this stuff happened, he was talking with his brother-in-law and had too much to drink and started talking about his wife, sharing some things about her. And then that's what led to her indiscretions and because she just – a wall went up and she got really hurt by that. She felt really betrayed even though it wasn't an affair, she got really hurt. And then…
Morgan: Those boundaries came down.
Brad: Yeah, well and she was just very vulnerable and very broken and had an affair with somebody that was already a friend and she was really hurt by her husband. And so her becoming a nurturer and a healer and a supporter is obviously going to be more difficult than somebody who had a one night stand or who is a sex addict or who you know and other types of situations. And so some of those factors are a consideration in this, but if you're able to do whatever it takes, if you're willing to do whatever it takes, if you're showing your shame and your remorse and your tears and you are compassionate and you're nurturing and you're supporting, this is going to greatly aid you. Obviously there's some things that are there that may it harder. And I want to share a balanced view because I've had people who have gone to other therapists who were very bitter because they felt like they lost everything, they didn't have a voice. And usually Morgan, those people were already on the fence about leaving anyway they didn't want to come to counseling again because therapist was going to say you've got to do this, you've got to do that. So they are being very vocal about it and they were already – I think in fact most of those people, in fact I would say about almost all of them that I can think of and I've only had a handful of those, maybe five or six who I think all of them have already made up their mind that they were going to leave anyway. They were already still in contact with the affair partner or they had already made up their mind that they wanted to leave.
Morgan: And it sounds like a lot of therapists are justifying the abuse of the betrayer because of their indiscretion instead of the balanced approach that both people have needs and wants. And obviously, the betrayer is going to need to show remorse and a healthy level of shame for what they've done, but that doesn't mean that they are going to deserve abuse because of what they've done.
Brad: Exactly Morgan, that's a great way to look at it and that's a great way to say that. And also, the negative cycle isn't necessarily always taken into consideration. And the negative cycle needs to be taken into consideration because we're rebuilding a marriage...
Morgan: And we'll talk a lot about that.
Brad: And it's two people. It's not just one person who is there, who is a nurse and who is a doctor helping this person better.
Morgan: Resuscitating.
Brad: Yeah their needs – and this is important for our listeners, for you guys to understand this. There needs to be compassion on both sides of this. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of hurt, a lot of shame, a lot of anger, a lot of rage, a lot of yelling, that kind of thing. A lot of that is normal, but there needs to be compassion. Fundamentally, you have to have compassion to heal from this and you need to express that. And the quicker you can run through the negative cycle that's causing the fighting and the arguing and the yelling and the bitterness and the resentment, the better you are going to be. And so, because it will help – because you are working on rebuilding the marriage and so you need that. And you need to be honest and you need the compassion because it's a two-way street, there needs to be compassion on both sides. But we also need the one who had the affair to become the supporter and the nurturer and be honest so that their spouse can forward in healing.
Morgan: Absolutely.
Brad: And Morgan let me explain, let me share this before we move on. I had a couple one time and I've shared this before. And what's really amazing about this is just how powerful what we're talking about today is, how much this really works. I had a couple I worked with in therapy for three months, maybe four months. They came in because the husband got caught in one affair, turns out he had nine and they went back from the time I think they were dating. And so he got caught in this one affair, there is eight other affairs. He did not want to open up and talk about this; he had very little answers, very few.
Morgan: Very short.
Brad: Very short and he didn't really share a whole lot and it kept his wife stuck. And finally she is, "I'm done, I can't do this anymore. I'm stuck, I'm not getting any better. I feel like I did when I first found out or at least in the first few days I found out. I feel like I'm living with a liar." And so she was done. He came into our office, I happened to be free. I met with him and talked with him and he said, "Brad, how much is too much? There is more here. There is at least six or seven others, turns out there is at least all these different girls, how much is too much? I've been worried about that the whole time." And I told him what I just mentioned a moment ago, I've never had anybody who didn't become a supporter, a nurturer – in a sense a healer, who didn't make it work.
Morgan: So you've never had anyone who became that nurturer and supporter who didn't work right?
Brad: Yeah. They've always done that, that's been willing to do whatever it takes, that's been honest. And honesty is a huge part of becoming a nurturer and a supporter. There is physical affection – I'm sorry, I'm ashamed, but also honesty is a huge part of this. And I shared that with them and she stayed, they made it work and...
Morgan: ...healing.
Brad: Yeah six – I talked to her later that day and she's like, "this guy is evil because he told –" she found out everything. And it's really hard to understand how people can do things like that. And she was, "this guy is evil". And a few months later, maybe four or five months later, maybe six months later, she saying, "he's really an incredible man", "he's really an incredible dad", "he's really an incredible man". She began to see him differently. And so this isn't hopeless, you just have to trust this process and so we are going to get into some of that. I want to give characteristics of people who and for a lack of a better way of describing this, probably are what I would consider slow supporters, slow nurturers…
Morgan: Where they kind of put a wrench in the process of healing, what they do. Brad: These are people that make healing much slower.
Morgan: They stunt the process. Brad: These are things that happens that makes this healing much slower or nonexistent. And this is a way to sabotage your rebuilding process, recovery process. First is, they minimize the pain that their spouse is experiencing. They don't quite understand the pain, they don't downplay it – you are crazy, you are nuts, you are overreacting.
Morgan: And sometimes that's the shame that they feel. They want their pain to stop and...
Brad: Yeah, that could be the shame or it could be some other things, but they downplay it and it's not very caring, it's not very compassionate. I just nailed your hand to the wall with this nail gun and I'm going to downplay the pain that you are in.
Morgan: Oh, you must not be in that much pain.
Brad: This didn't hurt that much.
Morgan: I don't want to feel bad that I hurt you basically.
Brad: Yeah you know and so it's really silly when you think about it like that, but they minimize the pain and it slows down the healing process or makes it nonexistent.
Morgan: Right, the second one is they focus on their own hurts, their own pain, their own concerns and their own needs rather than a becoming a supporter and a nurturer. They are consumed with how they feel and what's happening for them that they can't turn and look at the pain they are causing their spouse.
Brad: Yeah and in fact, they are stuck in their own hurt and they are still bitter, maybe even from things in the past.
Morgan: Exactly.
Brad: There is also a lack of knowledge about the healing process. That's why we do this and that's why we've created this so that people who are experiencing this, you will know how to recover from an affair. You will know the steps that are necessary. You will have a 360° view of everything you need to know and consider when working through an affair and how to heal.
Morgan: Exactly. And the fourth one is there is a lack of knowledge about the trauma associated with the affair or affairs in general. There is a huge level of trauma. That's why a lot of people say well one minute I feel rage and the next minute I feel sad, the next minute I feel fine, I feel numb the next minute. And so there's these ups and downs of trauma.
Brad: And the obsessiveness and the need to talk about it.
Morgan: Right and to ask the same question over and over and over because they process something a little bit differently the next time or they fully understand something, one part of it, but they still have questions about the other part of it. And so, it's very common.
Brad: Yeah Morgan that's important and that's actually a part of trauma recovery, is the need to go through the story. When your spouse is asking about questions and they ask the same question, it's not necessarily to catch you in a lie, it's so that they can wrap their mind around what happened and begin to heal. And that's an important part of healing.
Morgan: Absolutely.
Brad: There is also what keeps people stuck, is sometimes a supporter, the betrayer who needs to become that supporter and nurturer, what keeps them stuck from healing is that they are still in love with the affair partner, they still have feelings for the affair partner.
Morgan: And that can really stunt the process.
Brad: Hmm hmm. And you need to listen to our – what we produced on how to fall out of love with the affair partner, we've got information and what we produced on that so you need to listen to that.
Morgan: Absolutely. The betrayer who needs to become the supporter, they are still communicating secretly with the affair partner, maybe they haven't cut off ties.
Brad: And that could be two different things; you could still be communicating with them and if you're communicating, obviously you're still in love with them. But you can still be in love with them even if you are not communicating with them.
Morgan: Right and you can not communicate even though you have those feelings for because you want to be honest with your spouse.
Brad: Yeah, another thing that really keeps people from healing from an affair, a marriage from moving forward, is the one who had the affair is not honest about the affair. And Morgan, this is important and for our listeners, this is really important, if you had an affair, your spouse in a sense has this – they are hypervigilant, they have this internal lie detector that tells them when they are being lied to and when things don't quite add up.
Morgan: Right, some call that the intuition.
Brad: Yeah, they have this intuitive ability to know if things don't seem right and they are naturally more skeptical and so they are not easily trusting. So they tend to know when things are not stacking up or being honest and so…
Morgan: Right, if there's something more you need to say. They have an idea. There's something missing that they kind of have a feeling about. And the eighth one, they are still experiencing a very horrible negative cycle that we've talked about and will probably continue to talk about. There is fighting and just not...
Brad: Blaming, criticizing, demanding and then avoiding, withdrawing, getting defensive. We're not really sharing and connecting emotionally, but we are feeling stuck and we're getting caught in these rigid patterns of interaction and honestly, we don't feel like we're cared for very much. And obviously, having an affair is going to create some negative cycles or maybe they are going to at least to be...
Morgan: Escalated.
Brad: Escalated. But letting these – not getting help for the negative cycles is one of the most dangerous things that couples can do after an affair. Almost every couple has a negative cycle after an affair...
Morgan: ...in general.
Brad: Yeah, and you need to get help with it and that's something else you can listen to, is what we talked about in negative cycles. And then the last thing I would add and definitely, there are others; things that make healing slow. It's really when the one who had the affair, one thing that can make healing harder and slower for the marriage to move forward, is the one who had the affair is bitter about something in the past, about how they were treated before the affair. Like I mentioned earlier, with the wife before she had an affair, she was really betrayed by her husband in a different way.
Morgan: Her confidence.
Brad: Her confidence was betrayed, really just shattered by him because everybody in the family found out these less than favorable things about her that she really never discussed and it just crushed her, just destroyed her. And she started talking more to her friend that she had and then the affair didn't happen but maybe not even six months after that, maybe I think it was two or three months after that. And so it happened fairly quickly. So those are some things that are characteristics of someone who is not really supporting and nurturing and...
Morgan: It makes it slow. The process is slow, significantly. Brad: And then there are healthy characteristics, things that we have to have and if we do have, that really make this, I wouldn't say a seamless process, but a more productive process. I think that's a better way to describe it. And one of those – the first I would say is they take responsibility and ownership for their actions. They are not minimizing what they did, they are taking ownership of it; I am responsible for this, I did this to you. I'm responsible. There's nothing worse than someone hurting you doesn't take responsibility and who minimizes what they've contributed and how they did it and blames you for it.
Morgan: I did this to you, I did this to us, I did this to our relationship and I'm sorry and I'm remorseful. The second one is they've ended the affair, they cut it off.
Brad: Yeah, they've ended the affair and that's necessary. The third is they provide emotional support.
Morgan: Hmm hmm. Yeah, that's important. The fourth is if needed, they provide physical support. Sometimes people don't want to be touched. Sometimes they need it, so being physically available.
Brad: Yeah and this is important. They are honest about everything; they are honest about the affair, they are honest about any contact that they have with the affair partner, they have to work with them. They are transparent, they are open and they are willing to be honest.
Morgan: Absolutely.
Brad: And they come forward with it. They don't wait for their spouse to have to pry it out of them.
Morgan: Or find it and ask them.
Brad: Or find it on their own and that's huge.
Morgan: And the sixth one is they express healthy levels of shame, remorse and guilt. Healthy because it is productive, it's not turning inward and going into a depression.
Brad: Well they express their shame and I don't think you can't help but be depressed after you've betrayed somebody.
Morgan: Yeah, that's true.
Brad: In the beginning of this. But they express shame, remorse, guilt, they show their tears. In fact Morgan, what you really – what helps somebody who has been injured from an affair heal, is they see that their spouse is hurting for them.
Morgan: Yeah honestly hurting, not crocodile tears, but real…
Brad: Yeah, honestly hurting. And they also acknowledge that their spouse has a right to heal – sorry, they acknowledge that their spouse has a right to feel hurt and that's important.
Morgan: Right and they do whatever it takes to help them heal.
Brad: They are proactive in the healing process. They've listened to things like us. They've read books. They've listened to our material and they are proactive in the healing process. They know what to expect, they are there. It's almost like when you know you have a loved one who is going to be going in for cancer surgery...
Morgan: You look them up.
Brad: You look up on WebMD, mayoclinic.com and you go in and you look up what they're going to need and the kinds of support they're going to have and you do that for them, you help them with that.
Morgan: Exactly and kind of in lieu of that, something that comes naturally, then they understand the healing process. They understand what it looks like. And then it's much, I think much simpler for the person who has betrayed their partner to then see what's happening in front of them instead of it just exploding and they don't understand why, they have a better understanding.
Brad: And this is the last thing I would say and again, there are others that I'm not including, but another characteristic that really helps couples recover is when the betrayer has really been able to help the couple avoid fights, arguing, they are not getting defensive. They are staying present. They are staying there with their spouse when they have all these questions and concerns and so that's important. And then the last thing I want to go over Morgan before we are done today is what it says about the betrayer when they refuse to be a nurturer and a supporter.
Morgan: This is important.
Brad: And this is really important because there's some things, there are some factors here and I only have a handful of these, maybe about six or seven ideas on why a betrayer would refuse to be a nurturer and supporter. And the first is really they are afraid. They are afraid that the process of healing won't work and they don't believe that being honest will have a positive impact on their ability to recover. They are really afraid that in their own potential, it's like they don't believe in them that they can work through this.
Morgan: Right or the potential of the relationship even. The second one is they don't think it will work. Other people have divorced, most people divorce which is not true, after infidelities. So they just have these ideas that society puts in their head that it's not possible, but that's a complete false belief. You can recover after an affair, but people don't think that they will or...
Brad: Yeah, they've seen other people who maybe haven't, but that's not the case. You're right about that, most of them do recover. This is also important and this is huge Morgan, another reason why people refuse to become a healer or nurturer or supporter, is they are uncertain if they want to stay with their spouse. And I would say that's probably the biggest that I've seen, is they refuse – or excuse me, they don't refuse, but they are uncertain if they want to stay with their spouse.
Morgan: For so many reasons. There's different reasons.
Brad: Yeah and that goes in with the next one, is still involved with the affair partner. And another part of this is they may not be honest because there is more to the story and they want to protect their spouse from more hurtful info, just like the guy I mentioned earlier. He's not honest because there is more to it.
Morgan: Right, they don't want to see them hurt anymore that's very difficult, but it's very important. So the next one is they don't believe their spouse will forgive them. They may feel beyond forgiveness because of the things from the past and what's happened.
Brad: Yeah Morgan and let me say this briefly. They don't believe that their spouse will forgive them because of things from the past that have happened, because of past times their spouse didn't forgive them and that's important.
Morgan: Right, how can this be any different?
Brad: Yeah, you're still nagging me about something that happened from 20 years ago or five years ago. So how can you – and that's not even the same league as this, it's how you're betraying. You tell me you can forgive me now, how can I trust that? And then the other thing is...
Morgan: This is important...
Brad: Yeah and this is really important, they want upfront guarantees without putting in any work after the affair, that things will be different. They want to know upfront, okay this marriage beforehand has left me hurt and bitter, so I had an affair. Now, if I'm going to make this work with you and move forward with you, I need to know upfront that this is going to work and that's part of that fear, that's part of yeah…
Morgan: And it's kind of like your friend comes up to you and says I need a favor, but I need you to say yes before I tell you what this favor is. It's kind of like that, I don't think I want to say yes, I don't know what the favor is. You want my firstborn child? I don't know.
Brad: Yeah exactly. But they want upfront guarantees that we're going to be happy and they will be, but you got to go through the process. It's like I want to lose weight, but I got to go to the gym, I got to eat right, I got to go through the same process everybody else does. There is no shortcuts. But here's the thing, there needs to be a balance to this. This person who had the affair isn't a slave. They are a supporter, a nurturer and as a result of that, they are helping the injured spouse heal. They don't lose their voice or opinions, they just recognize my spouse is hurting and I need to be there for them. That doesn't mean they can't have needs too. In fact, we want them to have needs that can be vocalized.
Morgan: Right because it's healthy...
Brad: And there needs to be compassion from both sides to make things work, that's the key thing, there needs to be compassion from both sides to make this work. And it definitely helps when the person who had the affair is willing to do whatever it takes and they are honest about it. Trust the process, it will work for you. It's worked for countless others. From my experience, less than 1% who are honest, don't make it. Being honest actually hurt them, less than 1%. The odds are in your favor, be honest about things and trust the process. You guys are going to make it through this and so you can do it, I believe in you.
Morgan: Absolutely.
Brad: I believe in this process as well that we're talking about.
Morgan: And we've helped hundreds of couples. We are so glad that you joined us today. Have a wonderful day and we will talk to you soon.
