Transcript:
Morgan (00:03):
Hi, welcome to Healing Broken Trust for Brad and Morgan Robinson, and we have a great show for you today. Actually, we have a listener question that we want to discuss today. The listener says, "My husband said that the only thing that he feels bad about his two-year affair is hurting me. He's not sorry that he found happiness with his affair partner. And I really want to reconcile, but if he will always see his affair partner in a good light, I cannot reconcile." So they would appreciate any insight. And one of the biggest emotional roadblocks to healing broken trust after an affair is something that's known as affair nostalgia. And when the unfaithful partner still holds the affair in a positive light, that can be really hard. So we're going to talk about that, Brad.
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Brad (00:53):
Yeah. And that's basically what a fair nostalgia is. It's when the unfaithful partner is held in a positive light. People will talk about, "It meant so much to me. It was so great. I love it. " They're not really communicating any sort of remorse or regret. They're not portraying that they're sorry. Maybe I'm sorry I got caught, but they're not really warm or empathetic, that kind of thing.
Morgan (01:21):
They don't regret. It's almost like they don't have any regret for having the affair.
Brad (01:24):
Yeah. And an example of this could ... There's a lot of different examples of this. One is like the listener question. The affair has been over. He had this two-year affair. It's over, but they're not really even sorry. That could be one because they're still idolizing the affair. Another could be like anytime they talk about the affair partner, they talk about how beautiful the person was or handsome they were. It's like, "Man, this person was so handsome, so beautiful." And it's like, "Oh my gosh, just cut me in a million pieces. I don't need to hear that.
Morgan (01:56):
" Yeah. I'm trying to reconcile.
Brad (01:57):
Yeah. And messages like that, what they create is they really cause people to feel like, "Okay, how serious are you about us?" Because the core need for somebody who's been betrayed is they want to feel chosen after being betrayed. It's like, "Okay, I was replaced. Now I need to know that I'm chosen." And when affair and nostalgia is there, where people have this kind of rosy picture of the affair, that can really make reconciliation hard for the betrayed because healing requires that both of us get on the same page. We got to get the truth out there. I need to know you're sorry, and I need to see a real desire to rebuild something new together with us and not just repair the damage that happened for appearance's sake about what other people think. It's got to be about us and we've got to really roll up our sleeves.
Morgan (02:53):
Well, it also seems very clear and obvious that you can't have a mind for two people, right? It's a heart for two people. It's me only because I'm your beloved. So yeah, it's absolutely a challenge that's hard.
Brad (03:08):
Yeah. Well, that's a good point because when somebody, they're communicating that they're emotionally split. When somebody who's having an affair only feels bad about hurting their spouse, but they don't regret the investment that it took away from their marriage and their family and into the affair, they can be emotionally split. And then that makes it harder to give those things that are needed back into the marriage after the affair.
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(03:34):
Usually what people will say who've been injured is they're going to say something like, "You know what? I'm not asking that much. I think this is reasonable what I'm asking for. If reconciliation is going to work, you have to be willing to do these things for me. I need you to take full responsibility. Don't be defensive. I need you to show empathy and remorse, not just for the pain that you caused me, but for the choices that you made. And I need you to let go of idealizing this affair partner." And what that means is I need you to work through those unresolved fantasies or unmet emotional needs that fuel this affair. And I need you to also reinvest emotionally back into our marriage and do that wholeheartedly, not just stay married on paper, but really rebuild something special.
New Speaker (04:17):
That's right.
Brad (04:18):
And this is kind of what else they would say for somebody who's been injured and on the receiving end of that kind of persistent rejection, because that's the other thing, Morgan, that's a part of this, is when the affair happened and then they kind of have a fair nostalgia, it's still rejecting. And so until that happens, somebody who's betrayed in this scenario is going to feel like reconciliation is going to be really hard for them. Even if they desire it and want it, they're going to get stuck in this painful negative cycle of doubt because they feel like, okay, you're still emotionally attached somehow, some way to the affair partner, and that does not create the safety I need.
New Speaker (04:55):
No. Right.
Brad (04:57):
So far we're talking about this from the perspective of the person who was betrayed. We're going to get a little bit, and we're going to explain that a little bit more, but then we're going to get deeper into the perspective of the person who has been unfaithful in how they see this and view this.
New Speaker (05:13):
Yeah.
Brad (05:13):
Do you want to get into kind of how the person who's been betrayed
Morgan (05:19):
Feels? Yeah, absolutely. So the first point would be, the person has strong feelings and really wants a relationship. So the would be lover, the person who likes someone, who doesn't like them back, right? And in a sense, this can go kind of two ways, right? You've got the elements of limerance, right? When someone is kind of pining over the affair partner or what the affair gave to them, they almost have this idealized view of that relationship and of that person. And so they don't have kind of probably a real look at that relationship because it's not true love. It's not real love. It's kind of an idealized perspective of the relationship. And so, but also the person wants, they want the other person to like them back and to choose them.
Brad (06:17):
Yeah. Ultimately they want to be chosen. Both people. Yeah. The affair, when you're in the affair, you're showing you're choosing the other person, you're not choosing me. And part of what people need after they've been betrayed is, "I need to know that you're choosing me for me, not for kids or money or other reasons." You're really here for me. And that's kind of what Morgan is saying is like, "I want this relationship to work, but I need to know that you're choosing me for me. " They want to be pursued. That's right. They see the effort that was put into the affair. They want to see that applied back to them. They want to be pursued as well. And so part of what they can feel is they feel like sad a lot and heartbroken. They feel embarrassed like, "Why am I still wanting this when you don't?
(07:02):
Is something wrong with me? " And then they obviously are going to feel angry about this because it's unfair. It's not what they signed up for. And then they're confused because they don't know what to do next. There's not these ... Nobody really knows what to do in these situations. Everybody thinks they know what they're going to do until it happens to them. And once it happens to us, it's like all bets are off. It's like,
(07:26):
"Okay, we're going to divorce if you ever cheat on me. "
Morgan (07:29):
Right. I hear that so many times.
Brad (07:31):
But when it happens, people don't really know how to work through that and approach that because it's so difficult. And back to your point that you made earlier, Morgan, is there's strong feelings that the person who's been betrayed has, they still want the relationship. The irony is they still want it. Yes, many times they do, but they also are afraid of the person. "I love you, but I'm also angry with you or I need you close by, but when you get close, they push you away. "It gets very confusing for the person who had the affair and that can fuel the affair and nostalgia because, gosh, I'm trying, but it looks like everything I'm doing is just leading to an argument all the time. And so it's like when we don't get along, it makes the affairs seem like it was greener pastures. Even though this person may have had their issues, maybe they weren't that great of a catch.
(08:28):
Yeah, it is something that's unfortunate and I shouldn't have done, but when we don't get along, that's when my nostalgia for the affair partner grows worse. I want that more.
Morgan (08:40):
Yeah. And it does take time for the remnants of the affair and all of that to be put away completely, right? So oftentimes a person has been in this limerance or this outside relationship for quite some time, right? So they've built up all of this kind of world inside of themselves, inside their mind, in their life, like this whole other world, right? And so they're having to dismantle that, right? And it has to be dismantled completely. And so there's going to be those remnants before they completely and fully reinvest in the relationship sometimes. So when you're hearing them say," Oh, the affair was wonderful or that person was wonderful. They shouldn't be saying that because that's detrimental, that's damaging, but when you're hearing that, but they're still with you and they're still wanting to work on the relationship, that's probably the remnants of that affair that is still being dismantled and put away and it does take some time, unfortunately, and it can be very painful,
Brad (09:49):
But
Morgan (09:50):
It's necessary work.
Brad (09:52):
Yeah. Yeah. And Morgan, part of what they can do, the person who's betrayed in these situations where
New Speaker (09:59):
Their
Brad (09:59):
Spouse who had the affair has this affair nostalgia is they tend to think about us. So they're looking for little subtle clues. They're looking for signs like, okay, they were warm today, they smiled at me today, we made love, they were planning a trip. They're looking for little things and they're reading between the lines because they're looking for hope. They want hope that you are thinking of me, that you have changed your mind about this other person.
Morgan (10:29):
Oh yes, from the betrayed partners perspective. Yeah.
Brad (10:32):
Yeah. They want these things, so they replay it. What can happen though is it leads to anxiety and fear. So they look for reassurance. So it bubbles up inside of them where they have all this anxiety and fear, this pressure is mounting inside of them and what can happen is that they then can approach their spouse in a critical way, demanding way, blaming way, which is understandable because it's like, "Okay, you had this affair, you've hurt me, you've destroyed me and now I'm supposed to be a doormat and just like tolerate this.
New Speaker (11:07):
"
Brad (11:08):
So all this boils up inside of them and it's hard to talk about these things in a vulnerable way where they can get reassurance and get clarity, but because they do it in a more critical, blaming, demanding way, that causes the person who had the affair to pull back
New Speaker (11:24):
And
Brad (11:25):
Then it causes them to like, "Oh my gosh, this is overwhelming. We can't make it. See, I knew you wouldn't forgive me.
New Speaker (11:31):
"
Brad (11:31):
And kind of can feed into underlying issues that they had prior to the affair
Morgan (11:36):
Happening,
Brad (11:36):
If there were any. And if that happens, that really causes them to, that can feed that affair and nostalgia. If we don't get along, that can feed this affair and nostalgia. So that's really scary. Yeah,
Morgan (11:51):
That's important.
Brad (11:52):
And it's not saying that to shame anybody or blame anybody, but it's good to be aware of these patterns that may be there.
Morgan (11:59):
Right, because it's almost like a mental, emotional escape, right? The affair is often an escape for someone, an emotional escape, escape from depression, escape from stress, escape from whatever it might have been that was difficult or challenging. And so when things naturally in a loving working relationship, a marriage, oftentimes when things don't look so relaxed, it can be a tendency, a habit, right? Because most of this is a habit, a habitual response, right? And so they go back to that habitual response of exiting emotionally, exiting mentally, and that takes them to kind of the romanticized version of that relationship. And so anyways-
Brad (12:52):
Yeah, Morgan, kind of like piggyback off on that, part of what the betrayed will do in the situation is to try to talk more,
(12:59):
Reach out more, spend time together. They're looking for reassurance. Obviously, we all want it in this kind of situation. They're going to ask for another chance, why not? Maybe they get really angry and say, "Screw it. We're done. No more." Those kinds of ... Maybe they want it, and then they kind of draw a line and say, "I don't want it. " And then they take that back. They withdraw the boundary when it seems like, "Okay, I'm not getting what I want. " They try to really keep the person close even when it can hurt really bad and then-
Morgan (13:27):
And we're still talking about the betrayed partner.
Brad (13:29):
Yeah, the betrayed partner can do those
Morgan (13:29):
Things.
Brad (13:31):
And part of what makes this hard is that there isn't a really clear rule book on how to act or what to say or what to do. So we feel really lost in these situations. And then if other people know about it, like what's going on, like we're separated or the affairs happened, but they're not really owning up to it after they've betrayed us. It's embarrassing. And this kind of feeds into people what people need who've been betrayed is they need clear answers. They need time, they need support, they need ways to heal their self-esteem and feelings after this. And again, like we've talked about before, they really need the betrayer to become a healer, that kind of thing.
Morgan (14:09):
Morgan,
Brad (14:10):
Do you want to get into part of what people who've been unfaithful in these scenarios think? Oh,
Morgan (14:15):
Sure. Kind
Brad (14:15):
Of the scenario, people who have a fair nostalgia after being unfaithful think.
Morgan (14:19):
So if they have a fair nostalgia, right, and they're thinking about this other person and they're kind of pining after that person, what they're wanting is they want the other person really to stop hoping for romance and they want things to feel normal again, right? So we got to get back to that pattern of normal, but positive, right? We talk about negative cycles a lot.
Brad (14:41):
Yeah. And Morgan, that's a really key insight you just said, because they're not saying, "I want in the relationship with us, our marriage, with you. " They're just saying, "Let's not put too much pressure on restarting our sexual relationship, or let's not put too much pressure into us being this perfect couple. I just want us to be good friends, or I want us to just get along. I want us to just not fight. I just want to get to first base before we start having all this emotional investment."
(15:12):
So sometimes they'll come at it like that. And like we've talked about before, the more intentional somebody was with an affair, like they were like, "I'm intentionally going to go cheat. I'm intentionally going to have an affair." Usually people like that are not as remorseful. They have more justifications for doing what they're doing. And so for them, they usually felt like, I'm speaking generally, but usually when somebody feels like a victim, like I was hurt first, I was injured in some key way before I had this affair, they use that as a justification for acting out. I've got this hurt and this injury so they can be more reluctant to enter back into the marriage. They're not as sorry, they're more reluctant and those injuries and hurts sometimes do have to be addressed for them to reenter back into the marriage because ideally we want the person who is unfaithful to be able to be a healer, but if they have been injured, sometimes we have to address those hurts.
(16:09):
Sometimes they are like, "You know what? I don't trust you even though I had this affair and I know you don't trust me now, but I don't trust you either."
(16:17):
So sometimes you have to kind of be graceful on both sides to address that. So I think that's important what you're saying.
Morgan (16:22):
That is very important that I can trust that you'll respond graciously, that you'll give me time to reinvest back in and as I dismantle all of the things that I've been doing or thinking and feeling for the last however long. So that's really important. So how they feel inside, right? So if the portrayer or the unfaithful spouse, they often feel guilty, right? They do feel guilty because they know that they've hurt you, right? As the listener or the viewer was saying, their spouse, their husband feels bad about how the affair hurt them. So they do love their spouse, they do love the listener, they still feel guilty, but then it's that nostalgia piece, right?
Brad (17:07):
Well, and I think it's a good point you're raising because they do feel guilt, but the guilt is usually the only reason they're still trying. And that's what the betrayed picks up on is like, you're only doing this out of guilt You feel all this towards your affair partner, the guilt is keeping the unfaithful party still in the marriage trying, but it's out of guilt and then the person who's betrayed picks up on that and
Morgan (17:31):
It's not
Brad (17:32):
Helping. No,
Morgan (17:33):
No, no.
Brad (17:33):
Because they're not sensing like, "I need you to pursue me. I need you to put that same effort into this. "
Morgan (17:38):
Or that you're fully invested in them. And like we're saying though, that takes a little bit of time as they dismantle what they've had. And so to try to be patient with that, because that does compound the hurt. I know it compounds the hurt tremendously when you hear those things,
(17:58):
But it does not mean that they can't love you or that things can't be fully invested or that they cannot, or that it's not a sign that it's hopeless, right? Because very often people, they'll reenter the relationship or they'll start the healing process, the healing journey for the kids, because they feel guilty, all of those things, that's how they start sometimes. It's how healing starts sometimes, right? But it does end up where you want it to be generally. It just will take time. And so trying to be patient with that. So if the person keeps trying, they might feel annoyed or trapped because they're still trying, but you need things, the person who's been betrayed, you need them to respond appropriately, you need all of these things. And so they might feel annoyed, they might feel trapped. And it's kind of that problem that we have, that negative cycle where we're sort of butting heads in the process of healing, but know that it's not the end of everything.
(19:05):
It doesn't mean that there's not hope.
Brad (19:07):
Yeah. And part of what people who've been unfaithful in this situation will think where they have an affair nostalgia is they will tend to downplay
(19:15):
Their own actions and the consequences of what they've done. They'll look at it like, "Well, yeah, I had an affair." Or they tend to downplay it. There's a lot of different ways they do that, but the key idea is to downplay it. They tend to minimize it. They tend to emphasize their own hurt. They get defensive. All the things that none of it's reassuring, unfortunately, but they tend to downplay it. And part of what they tend to do is they try to maybe let their spouse down gently. They're going to like, "Hey, it's not you, it's me, maybe we've been broken a while, you said a year ago you wanted a divorce before I started this affair, like our kids are older, nobody's going to be upset with us if we divorce." So they're trying to kind of avoid conflict and they even will start avoiding their spouse more because it's just like it's awkward and it does lead to conflict and these arguments and fights and then maybe they develop their own set of rules like, "Don't text me, don't harass me, don't follow me, don't hold me accountable." They start putting down these firm boundaries to the betrayed
(20:25):
Because the betrayed is like, I need-
Morgan (20:27):
Needing these things,
Brad (20:28):
Actually. Well, I need stuff from you, of course,
Morgan (20:30):
Because
Brad (20:31):
My trust is broken, but when somebody who is unfaithful, they may be like, "No, I'm not reachable. You can't reach me. Nope, can't do this. I can't do that. " They're not going to give. And there's a lot of different ways they can do that. Maybe they move out, maybe they get a no number, maybe they're like, "Maybe I'll stay in the other bedroom, but I'm not going to give to the marriage." They just set their own rules. Those kinds of things, when we're supposed to be quote unquote healing, actually can make situations, not worse necessarily, but they create new injuries, more injuries and hurts that have to be worked through because the core is I want to be chosen. And really part of this too is the unfaithful partner also needs to know they can be chosen. You can look over what I've done, you can forgive what I've done, those kinds of things- You can heal from what I've done.
(21:24):
Yeah, you can heal from what I've done. And the more we kind of get caught into this negative cycle that we're talking about today, like how we're trying to present both perspectives on this, how we get caught in that negative cycle, the more we get caught in that those differences that we're presenting,
(21:40):
The more both partners lose hope that anything can change. And there are some clear strategies that can be done in this situation. If you are the person who's been betrayed, you're really going to have to work on the trauma that's here. You're going to have to work on the trauma, you've been betrayed, you're going to have to ... We have resources available that we can help you with. We've created a whole program that can help you with this kind of trauma. You're not hopeless if this is where you're at. In fact, I would consider you normal if this is where you're at. This is a very normal healing situation. So Morgan and I today are not talking about this like, "Oh my gosh, these people are lost and hopeless."
Morgan (22:20):
No, not at all.
Brad (22:20):
No, this is actually normal. It's like you take your car into a body shop and it's like, "Oh my gosh, it's totaled." To them, that's what they're used to working on, not fender benders. We're the same way. If you're a mess and you feel like, "Ali, we suck, you're coming to the right place. We can help you. " So you got to get help with that trauma, you got to get help with those emotional injuries, and you really got to get clear on what reconciliation means to you, like choosing us. And it's like maybe like what Morgan said, like maybe we do start because of our kids or because it's maybe more practical, so to speak, but we are willing and we want to borrow hope to get to that really great relationship that we can be, that maybe we've had in the past. We want to get back to that.
Morgan (23:13):
Right. And again, often I'll hear that while people will say, "I just want to go back to the way we were. I want to go back to normal." And I think what people are really trying to say is, "I just want to heal from this and not have to feel these terrible feelings again." But it's really important to realize that we're not going to go back to the way things were, right? We're not going back to how it was because we'll just arrive to where we are today. Again, it'll just happen. Again, we don't want that, right? That is not the goal. The goal is to have a new marriage, to have a new relationship, to have something fresh and new. And it's going to take some time and it's going to be a windy road. It's not a straight path, right? It's going to have to sometimes require some give and take, right?
(23:58):
So if the betrayer, the unfaithful partner, the partner who stepped out of the relationship, if they are putting up their own boundaries and they're saying to you, "I am not ready to fully invest in the relationship. I'm still thinking and pining over the affair and what it gave to me. " We have to listen to that, but we also have to realize that that's sometimes part of the healing journey, right? Where they're dismantling this, but the more they begin to invest in the marriage, the more they begin to invest in the relationship, even just not moving out, right? The better it will be, right? It'll turn the corner with help. You can't just say, "Oh, I forgive you, " and then continue forward the way you are. Forgiveness alone does not solve the problems, right? We've got to be able to do something completely different, and that's where we step in, right?
(24:55):
That's where the experts step in to help you to do that. But yeah, it's a winding road. It's not a straight and narrow path.
Brad (25:04):
Yeah, exactly. Part of what you can do if you've been betrayed is set a boundary. I'm open to rebuilding if you're fully choosing us. If you're still attached to the affair, I have to step back to protect myself. You can say that without being angry or mean or spiteful. And that's important. But it's important to be able to use our voice to protect ourself.
New Speaker (25:22):
And
Brad (25:23):
Then it's okay to also ask for true remorse. Not, I'm sorry that you feel that way, or I'm sorry that you got hurt, but it's okay to expect true remorse. And if you've been unfaithful in this situation, it's a really good idea to figure out what you want and get clear on why you want. If you're choosing to reconcile, to get clear on why you're choosing to reconcile, write down all the whys. If the more wise you give yourself for accomplishing a goal, the more things that you can write on a sheet of paper on why you want this specific thing, the more motivated you will be. If the affair only gave you like, "I felt good. I felt this intoxication. I felt this infatuation, but that doesn't give you anything else." That's not a strong enough why. So get clear on why you want your marriage and come up with as many reasons as you can to help you get motivated to reconcile.
(26:28):
And then to ultimately be able to be the person you need to be for your marriage, you're going to have to starve out the affair partner. Part of that means you're going to have to not work with them anymore. Also, starving out the affair partner means not looking them up on social media, not ending your relationship with them, but it also means you're going to have to stop idealizing them.
(26:50):
Part of what causes illuminance to grow and this feeling of infatuation to grow is we look at them in a positive light and usually if an affair hasn't gone on that long, and I'm kind of using air quotes on like that long,
(27:07):
It's not a set amount of time for everybody, but usually in the beginning, we tend to see only the positives in the person. And when we are focused only on the positives of that person, we tend to see them, it tends to feed into that affair nostalgia. They had these good qualities, I felt alive, I felt this, I felt that. And when we feed into that, when we only see the positives and we idealize them, I don't see any negatives, it's going to be harder for us to look at that as a regrettable event. We're going to look at that as like, "Man, that was so good. Gosh, I wish I had done a better job of maybe hiding it. " Maybe that we don't go to that extreme, but what we need to do is kind of look at this and we really have to stop idealizing the person.
(27:57):
So on another sheet of paper, so the first sheet, we have 20 reasons why I'm choosing my marriage, like why I want this. The other sheet of paper, we have 20 bad qualities of the affair partner and then we let ourselves think about those things because the more we can think about that and call attention to that, we stop idealizing it. We stop looking at it as a good thing.
Morgan (28:19):
That's right. Yeah. I think the image that comes to my mind is, if you're trying to starve out a tumor,
(28:25):
Trying to starve out a tumor, you've got to cut the blood supply that goes to that tumor that continues to pump it with nutrients in life or you got to starve it off, put that stent in, block off the blood supply and kill that tumor so that the rest of the body can grow and thrive and function. And that tumor is just a blood sucking leech literally, literally, and it gives you nothing. It's just there and it'll be dead weight until you cut it out and then the rest of the body can thrive. And that rest of the body is your marriage, it's your relationship, it's your family, it's your identity, it's who you are. And that's provided that both partners and the relationship are of course thriving and doing their best to heal and can continue forward better than ever, right? So that's the goal.
(29:14):
And anything else you'd like to add to that or anything? No. Okay. Well, we're so thankful that you're here. We're thankful to serve you, to listen with you and to talk with you about these things. If you are struggling to heal Broken Trust, we are here to help you. You can find us at healingbrokentrust.com. We have programs, therapy, workshops, all of the things to help you. It's a holistic approach, a full approach to healing
(29:45):
The trauma, the marriage, the infidelity to wrap it up, to heal it and to move forward stronger than ever before. So you have a thought?
Brad (29:54):
Yeah. I was just going to say we would love to meet you guys, to meet
Morgan (29:57):
You in person.
Brad (29:58):
Part of what we all offer as opposed to couples therapy or marriage counseling is our programs are very structured. We focus on the key result areas. We focus on those 20% of things that give you the 80% of the results so you can work through this in max quickest time possible and you can do this. Absolutely. We know what we're doing. You need help. Let us help you. And you guys can do this. Absolutely. You can work through this.
Morgan (30:27):
Have you been wondering how to break free from the affair once and for all? Now's the time to take back your life, your emotions, find happiness, joy, and fulfillment with your marriage. Healingbrokentrust.com is the place where you can find resources to take the healing journey to the next level. You'll find incredible resources for every stage of your fair recovery journey. Connect with our team of qualified affair recovery therapists who stay current with the ever growing, ever changing a fair recovery research that's available to help you heal whererever you are in the process. Take our home study course focused on helping you communicate and express yourself in a way that gets you what you want. You can also book an incredible one-on-one intensive retreat where instead of dragging out the pain over months or years, you can condense the time it takes to heal in just a matter of days using scientifically proven methods that work to help couples lower their guard, let go of the fear, melt the anger, and experience each other at a deep emotional level you may have never experienced before.
(31:37):
So what are you waiting for? Go to healingbrokentrust.com, but don't take our word for it. Read the client letters and listen to the reviews on the healingbrokentrust.com website. So go to healingbrokentrust.com and we'll talk to you soon.
