Transcript:
Morgan (00:21):
Hi, welcome to Healing Broken Trust. We're Brad and Morgan Robinson. And today we are talking about the process of repairing trust and we just want to jump right in. So Brad, let's talk to them about repairing trust.
Brad (00:33):
Yeah. There's a pattern that researchers have identified or a process that researchers have identified that helps couples repair trust. And it's a research-based model. It explains why just apologizing often doesn't do the work, the deeper work that people need to build trust. And the big idea is that trust repair is not a one time ... Or excuse me, trust repair is not a one person project. It's not just up to one person to rebuild trust. It's actually a two-way back and forth process between two people. That's what they discovered.
(01:09):
And like we've talked about before, there's research on what they call the victim perpetrator dynamic. One person gets wronged, the other person did the offense, but it's up to both people to repair a trust. So on one side is the person who was hurt and whose trust was violated. In the research, they call this the trustor. We're going to use our normal language around that instead of saying trust her. But it's the person who was ... So on one side is the person who was hurt and whose trust was violated. And then on the other side, Morgan, is the trustee. That's the person who caused the damage or is accused of causing it. So you have the truster, the person who broke, the person who was injured, whose trust was violated. And then you have the other person obviously who caused the damage or at the very least has been accused of causing that damage.
(02:00):
And what this model says, this process says is that it says something really important. Trust gets rebuilt when the person who caused the damage or is accused of causing it makes efforts to prove they're trustworthy that outweigh the injured person's hurt, that outweigh the injured person's hurt and their natural drive to protect themselves. So that's really important. And that right there is where a lot of breakdown happens is, okay, you've broken my trust, but your efforts aren't outweighing my fear of getting hurt again. Your efforts are not outweighing the hurt that has happened to me. And when we can't even get past that level, we're not going to get it where we need to go because I'm hurt and injured and you're not putting in the effort that tells me I'm safe enough yet. I'm scared. I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm not seeing the kind of effort I need that you're willing to do whatever it takes.
(02:59):
That tells me, okay, I can relax with you. I don't have to be careful. So in other words, after a breach, a person who's hurt isn't neutral. Their mind and their body are often saying, "Don't be vulnerable again until you have a reason to be safe, until you have a reason to be vulnerable with this person."
(03:19):
So there's resistance and they're not trying to be difficult, but that resistance that they have is self-protection.
Morgan (03:26):
Right. Great. So that's why there's really got to be both people coming together to build and rebuild the trust, not to put the onus on the person who's been hurt. That's not the idea. It's really more about that person being aware of their pain and their hurt so that they can respond to the efforts of the person who violated the trust. Is that pretty fair to say?
New Speaker (03:55):
I think so. Yeah. I would say that's
Morgan (03:57):
Great. A good accurate assessment.
New Speaker (03:59):
Yeah.
Morgan (03:59):
So there were three questions, right? Yeah. Three big questions that were addressed.
New Speaker (04:04):
Yeah. So what they say is that that repairing trust moves through three big questions. You can kind of think of this as stages and which stage you're in determines what kind of repair actually works. So that's really important. So sometimes there's different tools in our tool belt that we can use, but depending on which stage we're in and the repair process determines what actually will stick and will land and be effective. So the first is just the first question that people have is, did you do it? That's the most basic question. Did you do it? Are you guilty or not? That's basically what they're asking. So this is the stage where the person who was hurt is trying to figure out what is true. So, did you sleep with them or not? Was this an emotional or physical affair? How long did this go on?
(04:54):
We're kind of that level where people get caught in those questions. So if the person who's accused can convincingly show that they're innocent or that the event didn't happen the way it's being interpreted, repair is quote unquote easier because it removes the foundation of mistrust. Did you have an affair? Did you not? And honestly, once you kind of get into that realm of like, I'm abandoned, I'm hurt, you betrayed me, there's a real trauma there. But according to the researchers who are applying this, not necessarily to infidelity, but to all kinds of situations, but it gets easier to repair trust if it didn't happen in the way that it's being interpreted. And that's what people will often think who've been unfaithful is like, okay, if it's only emotional, not physical, then that's got to be easier for us. So they'll minimize the lie. That's where trickle truth comes in because it's like, okay, I can't be as bad.
(05:54):
I got to kind of keep water it down, that kind of thing. But ultimately that ends up hurting trust long term
New Speaker (06:00):
Because
New Speaker (06:00):
They're denying and they're lying. And what people need who've been betrayed is like, "I just need the whole truth. I just need the whole story." That kind of thing.
Morgan (06:12):
Yeah. So not dismissing, not minimizing, not lying, so to speak, to make it feel less bad because it's all bad anyways. So might as well just get it out there.
New Speaker (06:22):
Yeah, exactly. And Morgan, here's a key point, and this often gets overlooked. If the person who was hurt is still stuck on, did you do it? And then if we jump ahead to, "I promise I'll change," that kind of promise can fall flat because the person who was hurt is thinking, "Change from what? We haven't even agreed on what happened." And it's like, "What happened here? You haven't agreed on the details." And so there's like a second question that people have. Do you want to get into that one?
Morgan (06:50):
Oh yeah. So why did it happen? So first you've agreed on the details of what happened. You had a one night stand, you were unfaithful five times or whatever it is and it looked like this once that's been agreed upon, the second question then becomes, well, why did it happen? What led to this? If it's clear the trustee or the person accused did it, the next question, was this because of you or because of the situation? So now they're trying to make up and understand why it happened. And so it's where people argue about the cause. The trustor, according to the research, the person who was hurt is asking, does this reveal something about your character and your choices or was this driven by pressures, context or a breakdown in judgment?
New Speaker (07:42):
So I think it's important what you're saying, Morgan, because the person who's injured, they're asking why. And literally everybody who's been betrayed is asking the same thing like, why? What is the cause of this? Is it your character? Is it your choices? What was going on? Is
Brad (07:56):
There
New Speaker (07:56):
Pressure? What was the context around this? And sometimes people who've been betrayed blame themselves, sometimes they don't, but they're looking for a reason. And ironically, people blaming themselves for this helps them actually feel in some ways empowered after a trauma because it's like, if I know the reason for this and if it's me, then I'm not as-
Morgan (08:19):
I'm in control.
New Speaker (08:19):
I'm more in control of
Morgan (08:21):
It.
New Speaker (08:21):
And I'm not saying that to blame somebody for being betrayed like, "Oh, you did it or it's your fault." I'm just explaining how it's normal for people to wonder why did this happen. And if they can't find a cause, they'll blame themselves. And even if they do have a cause, they'll still blame themselves because doesn't mean it's true. It's just a defense mechanism to try to take some degree of control over this. And at this stage, Morgan, the person who caused the damage often tries to explain, "Well, here was what was happening. I was overwhelmed. I wasn't thinking clearly." They'll blame it on circumstances, they'll provide justifications for it, but the person who's hurt what they're hear is more excuse making.
Morgan (09:03):
Yeah, what they hear. Yeah.
New Speaker (09:04):
Yeah. And that really is a huge breakdown, especially when we get into the area of apologies or we get into the area of just letting the person who's injured talk about their feelings around it. People will quickly try to explain themselves thinking that, "Well, if you understood where I'm coming from and you understood my thought process around this, then you could..." At that point, you wouldn't feel bad because you would understand the real reason behind it.
Morgan (09:32):
Or take a target off my back.
New Speaker (09:34):
Yeah, take a target off my back. But it comes across as defensiveness. It comes across as counter attacking, maybe even blaming. We just get into a negative cycle around it and it weakens the trust rebuilding process. So the person who's been hurt when we hear things like, "Well, here was what was happening, so you have some context or I was overwhelmed, I wasn't thinking clearly." When that happens, people will feel like they're just hearing excuses. So this stage is delicate. Explanations can help if they build clarity and the person who's taking ownership as they do it, but they often backfire if they sound like they're dodging responsibility, which is usually what happens, to be honest. I would say 5% of couples get that right where the person who's unfaithful isn't dodging responsibility, they take ownership. And part of that's there's intense shame. They remember the event differently.
(10:32):
They have some of those things that we've talked about before.
Morgan (10:35):
Yeah, absolutely. And so the third question, do you want to jump into it or do you want me to do- You go ahead. Okay. So that third question would be, well, can you change? It's very important. Can you change? So if it's accepted that the violation reflects on the trustee, the person who caused the damage, then the big question becomes, is this fixable? Is this who you are or is this something that you can change from or we can change from? And this is where trust repair becomes about the future. We're looking towards the future and us together, potentially staying together and working this out. And so the person who was hurt is basically asking, "Can I believe this won't happen again?" Is there a real correction happening or am I signing up for repeat harm? Are you going to do this again? Is this going to be a pattern?
(11:25):
Is this going to be who you are?
New Speaker (11:29):
Exactly. Yeah. And that's really important.
Morgan (11:31):
Yeah.
New Speaker (11:32):
That question of can you change? So we go from, did you do it like yes or no? Did you do it? It's kind of black or white to why did it happen? And then ultimately, can you change? And you know what's interesting, Morgan, is that usually people who've broken trust ask themselves the same questions. They're not asking did I do it. They know if they did it or not.
Morgan (11:55):
Usually.
New Speaker (11:55):
Yeah. Unless they're like blackout drunk or something, but they are asking, why did I do this and can I change? Most people are good. If they've broken trust, they don't want to do it
Brad (12:06):
Again.
New Speaker (12:06):
Even if they're really mad at their spouse, they felt like it was justified, that kind of thing. As some of that kind of wears off, some of that anger wears off and some of those justifications wear off that we've talked about already, they are wondering like, "I don't want to do this. Can I change? I want to be a good person. I want to live by my values. Why did I do this?
Morgan (12:30):
" I want to have true love. Yeah, I want
New Speaker (12:31):
To have true love. Real connection. Yeah. They don't want to be kind of the villain in their own love story. And so what you're saying is important at this stage, so at this stage, what matters most isn't just words. So there's the question of, can you change? And usually there's promises, yes, I can, I won't ever do it again, that kind of thing. But what rebuilds trust is evidence over time.
(12:56):
Things like changes in behavior, transparency, accountability, putting safeguards in place, boundaries in place, and then just having consistency from the person who caused the damage. A breakdown that occurs here is when the person who broke trust is arguing about the kind of boundaries that are in place. They're like, "I don't want this kind of boundary put on me. I can't do that. That's too much. You're asking too much of me. " That kind of thing. And part of what needs to happen is what needs to happen is they got to just keep showing I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I can change. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, but they got to do it in the key result areas. And the two biggest areas to prevent future infidelity are going to be having healthy boundaries in place because negative boundaries or poor boundaries, I mean, give rise to opportunity.
(13:52):
A lot of the people who stray usually have poor boundaries. They share things that belong in the marriage with others. They can have people pleasing tendencies, people who get drunk or on drugs. Those are poor boundaries just because you're high. But the other area is they got to do what's called proximity seeking, meaning they got to learn to lean on their spouse emotionally when they're struggling. And what they normally do is they tend to bottle things up and they don't lean on their spouse emotionally. So if we can kind of get really good at both of those, like boundaries and then lean on our spouse emotionally, we're going to be more likely to be faithful in the future. And what's ironic about that is that a lot of people who stray don't feel like, "Yeah, I can lean on you emotionally. I just broke your trust.
(14:40):
I hurt you. I betrayed you. " So now they have a better reason for not being vulnerable and not doing proximity seeking so they have a better reason for doing it. But the irony is that they're still engaged in the same behavior that made them vulnerable and fair to begin with.
(14:57):
And that kind of behavior of like not using my voice, doing proximity, seeking, leaning on my spouse emotionally, what it does is when I don't do that, it creates resentment because things on my end don't get prepared. I'm not having that healthy conflict sometimes that needs to happen.
Morgan (15:12):
And I wonder if people in that position think to themselves, "I can't rely on you emotionally because you're already emotionally so weighted down and heavy and hurting. And for me to come and share how I'm feeling with you is putting more pressure on you than you need right now." But it's the opposite very often. It's very much like it would calm and keep those fears at bay for the person who's hurting because you're becoming more transparent. You're actually someone that they can trust a little bit more because you are relying on them for your emotional needs. And so it feels kind of like the opposite, but it really isn't. It's truly something that's necessary.
New Speaker (15:56):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Morgan, there are specific reasons why apologizing isn't enough. Now again, this model of trust for building isn't necessarily talking about infidelity. It's talking about kind of relationships in general, but we can learn from it. There's still insights we can glean. And one of the things they say in this research and this model is that apologizing is often too simple. And I would say, yeah, absolutely. In cases of infidelity, it's often too simple. That's why it doesn't work because it's just too complex of an injury. When an apology is happening at ... Apologies are usually reserved more for that level three where can you change? Usually apologies work better there because they're the person ... What apologies are saying is that I'm taking responsibility and I'm changing. This isn't going to happen again. Kind of like we talked about before where apologies are like an explicit promise like, "I'm not going to do this again." When somebody apologizes and says, "I'm sorry," basically they're kind of saying, "I'm not going to do this again." And that's usually kind of reserved more for that level three, "Can you change?"
Brad (17:08):
So
New Speaker (17:09):
That's why the apologies are more effective in that area, not necessarily when we're explaining why it happened. If the person who was hurt is stuck in, "Did you do this or why did you do it? " And they're trying to figure out what happened or why it happened, then that apology usually won't land because it doesn't answer that person's real question they're having. You're not addressing the actual thing they're bringing up.
New Speaker (17:32):
You're
New Speaker (17:32):
Trying to talk about something else, not what's really there. So congruency is important.
Morgan (17:37):
You got to meet them where they are. Yeah,
New Speaker (17:38):
You got to meet them where
Morgan (17:39):
They're at. The process. Yeah.
New Speaker (17:40):
Yeah. That congruency is really important. Now, some betrayals are going to be harder to repair because there's a question of like, is it integrity or just this is how the researchers define it. Is it integrity or competence? So a key insight from this paper is that not all trust violations are equal. Some are mainly about competence like, did you make a mistake, you messed up, you weren't capable in that moment. Was it a one night stand? Were you drunk? Was it a moment of weakness or was it more intentional? Were you coerced? How long did it last? That might be something. Was it a brief affair or was it a long affair? Was it just messages? Was it maybe was it this or was it that-
Morgan (18:24):
People you're with or ...
New Speaker (18:26):
Yeah. And so did you make a mistake? Did you mess up? Were you not capable in that moment? Those are often easier to repair because improvement is easier to believe. To believe.
New Speaker (18:39):
Right.
New Speaker (18:39):
And that's important.
New Speaker (18:40):
Yeah.
New Speaker (18:41):
But violations that hit integrity, like honesty, faithfulness, moral character are harder because negative integrity information tends to weigh heavier and stick longer. So if I get information about somebody or if I'm married and okay, you cheated on me, you betrayed me and I'm getting information that this is about your integrity and your moral character, that's going to way harder than like if it's just like a other mess up.
Morgan (19:05):
Because it speaks to the core of the person and who they are. And if that's who you are at the core of you, you're just someone who loves to be unfaithful or it's just who you are, then it's going to be a lot harder for someone to believe that you can change or that you want to change, that change is possible. But I would argue that most people are not like that in the sense of like they don't necessarily want to be unfaithful. I mean, I'm sure that people are out there, but most of the time people do want to have a good, loving relationship.
New Speaker (19:41):
Yeah, exactly. Morgan, one of the other things that they mentioned is that what does not help trust building is mixed messaging. So mixed messages can backfire. So there's certain repair attempts that can make things worse. And when there's mixed messaging where the person who is accused denies that they did any wrongdoing, but then they apologize for it like, "No, I didn't do it. I'm sorry you feel like I did." Sometimes that actually makes people feel worse or-
Morgan (20:13):
Because you're apologizing for their feelings. You're saying, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you had that experience." It can say, it really speaks that they're sorry for how you were feeling, that you are responding the way you are instead of being sorry for their actions or being sorry for the hurt that they caused. That's the big reason that makes messaging to be very mindful and careful about how you word and approach your apology is important.
New Speaker (20:46):
Yeah. Now, another type of mixed message is somebody who is saying I'm innocent, I didn't do it. However, if I did do it, this is why I would've done it. No, I didn't shoot on you. No, I didn't have an affair, but if I did, I would've done it because you neglected me and you hurt me and you weren't there and you embarrassed me, but so I have the right to do it, but I didn't do it. Well, that's a very big mixed message and it doesn't fit logically like you're saying you didn't do it, but here's all the reasons you could have done it.
New Speaker (21:19):
Yeah, you should
New Speaker (21:21):
Have. That doesn't make sense. Obviously suspicions are going to go up for the person who's hurt in that kind of situation. That
Morgan (21:28):
Alone would be a pain that would be a hurt.
New Speaker (21:30):
Well, another mixed message that's really common is I care about you, but then when the person who's been injured says, "Okay, here's what I need to make it better." And then the person who's unfaithful doesn't do anything about it. "I need you to set boundaries. I need you to be honest with me. I need you to let me do blah, blah, blah to understand where you're at and how you feel, go to therapy, join Brad and Morgan's program, different things like that. But you're saying you're willing to do whatever it takes, but then you're like, " Nope, I won't do that. "That's a mixed message. "I won't go to therapy. I won't get help. I won't go- I won't do this. I won't do this. " And that just sends mixed messages.
(22:17):
Now there is patterns that people can get into like we've already talked about. The model that we're talking about says that trust repair doesn't only end and quote unquote fixed or not fixed. It can settle into patterns. Sometimes both people push hard where the person who caused the damage pushes for trust and the person who's hurt pushes back and then they get escalated into conflict and it creates escalation and constant conflict when that happens. You also see the reverse. The person who's hurt is like, "No, you're going to do this, you're going to be accountable, you're going to do this need, you're going to meet that. " And then the other person gets their back against the wall and kind of fights back or gets kind of rebellious, so to speak.
Brad (23:06):
I'm
New Speaker (23:06):
Not going to comply, that kind of thing. And the person who caused the damage, sometimes the person who caused the damage, if they don't put in the effort and then the person who was hurt becomes even more sure they can't trust, you get mistrust, confirmation or suspicion hardens. That's a fancy way of saying basically, "I need you to do X, Y, Z for me because I don't trust you and I ask for it to be done and then you don't do it, it actually confirms I can't trust you. I need you to put this boundary into place. I need you to be honest. I need you to choose me. I need you to work hard at this, but then you don't do it. I need those things from me because I don't trust you. But then if you don't do it, it actually confirms, yeah, I shouldn't trust you.
(23:53):
" And that's really hard and sad.
Morgan (23:56):
Yeah, it is. And it's interesting because I often wonder why people would push back when their spouse is wanting them to do X, Y, or Z to rebuild trust and they don't do it. And I usually see that they don't know how to do it and they don't know how to break out of the patterns and they just really need someone to show them.
New Speaker (24:17):
Well, Morgan, yeah, I'm speaking generally, part of why people don't do the work who've been unfaithful is like we talked about earlier, intentionality. Was this act intentional or not? And when people do an act that they know is wrong, intentionally do it and they know it's wrong and they know people are going to get hurt when they find out, usually they have less remorse after the fact. They have less guilt about the act, at least immediately after it's discovered. That doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever. But when people have that lack of remorse and not any real guilt about it, they're going to struggle to comply with the wounded partner's wishes. They're going to be like, "Why?" "No, I'm not going to do that. "Because part of this, like we've talked about in our podcast, you have to address the underlying negative cycle that's there because if we don't address the negative cycle that we're in, we're healing with a negative cycle.
(25:16):
And all of these things that we're talking about today that are like mismatches are all examples of trying to heal with a negative cycle. And part of what we've created with our program is we help you get out of your negative cycle so you can actually heal. Otherwise, you're healing with the cycle that was in place most likely when this was created.
Brad (25:36):
I
New Speaker (25:36):
Had a couple recently and they were talking about their negative cycle and they're like, " Yeah, we've had this negative cycle for 30 years and then trust is broken, there's an affair and now they're trying to heal from an affair with that same pattern. And sometimes people will temporarily get better after an affair gets discovered, but then that power of the pattern that they've been in, the bad habits that they've had begin to suppress their good intentions and good efforts. And they just get stuck in this. It's a mess.
(26:07):
"So here's what you can do with this information. One practical takeaway you can take from this is which of these three questions are we actually fighting about? Is it, did you do it? Probably we're probably past that. Some of you may be kind of there. Sometimes people listen to our podcast because they suspect somebody has been unfaithful, but maybe we're kind of past that like, " I know because I caught them right-handed, I seen the text messages, I have proof, so maybe we're past, did you do it? "But then there's also the question of why did it happen. We go really deep in our program on why an affair happened. We talk about the 10 characteristics that the average person who has us strays, we go deep into that, which is really eye-opening. And when people see that like, " Oh my gosh, I have these characteristics.
(26:55):
"And probably about 90% of people would say," Yeah, I have all 10 of these. "When people see that they have those characteristics, they are motivated to change because they don't want to be the same person. They're motivated to be a healer, they're motivated to change who they are because they're like, " Crap, this didn't happen in a vacuum. I have real things I got to change about myself. "And then the last ... Yeah, go ahead. The
Morgan (27:17):
Beautiful thing about that is it is changeable. There is hope, which
(27:21):
A lot of people, they get stuck thinking," Oh no, they get stuck in that can't you change mode, right, which is the next one that, oh gosh, this is who I am. I can't change who I am. I just have these desires and things like that. "But that's not reality. Reality is that change is the only thing that's inevitable in life, right? We're all changing, we're getting older, we're everything. So this can change. You can change and life can be better because of your self-improvement. So did you do it that phase? Why did it happen? And then can you change? Yeah.
New Speaker (27:59):
Yeah. And Morgan, the best repair attempts really depend on which question you're answering
Morgan (28:04):
Because
New Speaker (28:05):
You want to be congruent with where you're at.
(28:09):
Sometimes you don't want to have those repair mismatches. The biggest repair mismatch is what we started with this morning. It's this idea of the person who's been injured, they have a real concern on, is this going to happen again? Everything that we've said today, like, can I trust you? Do I mean anything to you? Do I matter to you? They're scared of trusting and they need the person who hurt them. They need the unfaithful party's efforts to outweigh their fears. So if you think about it on a scale, they need the unfaithful party's efforts to outweigh on a scale to override their objections so that they can really heal. Because if they don't sense that the person who's been unfaithful is willing to do whatever it takes, they're like, " No, this is going to happen again. "Is it true that once a cheater, always a cheater?
(29:05):
Is this going to happen in our case? I don't see you trying. I don't see the effort happening. And so they need to see that kind of effort. And then part of it too is like they need to see you growing in the right areas. So part of what we did at Healing Broken Trust is we created a comprehensive program that helps us as a couple, but also helps both partners and their individual needs to heal from this and to really not have this happen again. So if you're interested in that, please call our office. We would love to talk with you and see if you're a right fit for our program. Thank you for joining us today.
Morgan (29:42):
Yeah. And you can also reach out to us at healingbrokentrust.com. That's healingbrokentrust.com. And we'd love to partner with you and help you to heal in whatever relationship that you are in, you can absolutely have a beautiful man Marriage. Yeah. All right. Thanks
New Speaker (30:02):
Guys. Thank you guys. Thank you. We would love it if you're able to like and subscribe if this has been helpful for you. Oh. Yeah. So I'd love to see you guys address identity collapse splitting eraser as it relates to infidelity. Yeah. That's really important because identity is related to memory and if we part of the betrayed their identity, how they view these things gets wrapped up in that and how our identity also shapes what we remember. So for people who've been unfaithful, they can have an identity collapse where they don't remember certain things because it's a mismatch to who they say they are, who they believe themselves to be. And that can lead to compartmentalization. So yeah, really good question.
Morgan (31:01):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm trying to think, but any other questions or anything? Any follow up questions maybe? We're so glad that you guys have joined us. We look forward to talking with you again next week. If you'd like to be reminded of these lives, definitely like and subscribe and you can also join our email list when you go to healingbrokentrust.com. If there's not any other questions, we'll call it a day.
New Speaker (31:43):
Yeah. Thank you guys for joining us and listening.
Morgan (31:45):
Yep.
New Speaker (31:46):
We appreciate you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.
