Transcript:
Brad (00:02):
They're often more likely to apologize when they think what they did was unintentional. So we're going to get into some of this research on how they figured this out. So when people feel like what they did was unintentional, they're more likely to apologize. So that's actually really important because guilt is what drives apology. So if I feel guilty, that's why I'm apologizing. That's right. And guilt can be blocked by defensiveness, rationationalizing or shame when the betrayal involves deliberate choices. So the injured partners often thinking, "You chose this, so own it, repair it. Why won't you do this? It makes them angry like you do something about this.
(00:40):
" While the unfaithful partner may be thinking, "I already said I'm sorry. Why isn't it over?" Or they may even be thinking worse like, "I didn't feel guilty at all. I've been hurt for a while. We're going to get into some of that. " That kind of disconnect can stall healing in a very big way because after I've been hurt, I'm expecting you to show me that you're trustworthy. I'm expecting you to show me that you're choosing the marriage and us again. And so when that kind of thing happens, it's really, really, really brutal. So today we're going to break down what each side is really needing, why apologies often fail after intentional betrayal and what a healing apology actually includes. Includes things like ownership, empathy for the impact that's happened and a real change plan, like a real path for creating change. So trust can start becoming rebuilt step by step instead of getting stuck in the same painful negative cycle.
Morgan (01:34):
Yeah. So
Brad (01:36):
Yeah.
Morgan (01:36):
Yeah, absolutely. So something you said that was really important is people will feel like they should apologize when it's unintentional, but when it's intentional, it's often because they have been hurt or they feel like it's justified. And so then it's much harder for them to apologize or to show remorse because they don't feel like, or they do feel like it's justified that what they did was for a good reason.
Brad (02:09):
Yeah. So Morgan, to piggyback on what you're saying, like people won't apologize because they feel like what they did was justified. I had a good reason for doing this. I had a client one time or a woman I talked to who's in our program. I asked her, "What did you tell yourself anytime you felt guilty about the affair to not feel guilt?" And she said, "I just reminded myself how my husband had hurt me. " That created justification for her. Other people will blame circumstances. It was out of my control. I had no choice. It was kind of random. Maybe it was a one night stand, maybe I had too much to drink. They came onto me. I was really in a low point in life, those kinds of things. And then there's these eight lies of moral disengagement that's way different. We got into that.
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(02:57):
A whole
Morgan (02:58):
Other episode.
Brad (02:58):
It's a whole other thing.
Morgan (03:00):
Other conversation.
Brad (03:00):
Yeah. But they get into these eight lies of moral disengagement that allow them to still feel like a good person. So they will twist what they're doing either into something that's good or disregard the consequences. And it allows them to, who's an otherwise a good person, to engage in what's called selective morality. And that's something that people can do. And when people engage in those kinds of behaviors, selective morality, twist things to make it good and make it acceptable to not feel guilt, what can end up happening is they're not going to show remorse other than like a polite, I'm sorry, or something like that. They're not going to really be truly sorry because initially at least they still think that way. They still believe it was okay. They still think it was justified. And then the other thing is, is that avoidant attachment styles can create resentment.
(03:54):
And of course, and the reason that avoidant attachment styles create resentment is people feel resentful because they're not using their voice. The key defining characteristic of avoidant attachment style is they don't do proximity seeking. They're not going to their spouse and saying, "I'm struggling. I need help. I need you to be different in this key way." They don't do that. Anxious attachment style does that. Secure does that, but avoidant and typically fearful avoidant will not do that. And when they don't use their voice to create the kind of relationship they want, it creates resentment.
(04:28):
And when that resentment's there, people can slide into justification. Sometimes people are hurt and that's why they have an affair. It's not every affair. And if you've been betrayed, I'm not blaming you for why this happened. It's just this is what people perceive who've been unfaithful that keeps them from being able to be honest and remorseful. And Morgan, because there's this mismatch between the wounded and the unfaithful partner, the injured and the unfaithful partner, they have these really critical differences in key areas. They can't agree on who's actually responsible for the transgression. Like, well, you had the affair. Of course, I'm betrayed. Of course, you're responsible, not me, but the person who's unfaithful will sometimes say, "Well, I wouldn't have done it if you hadn't mistreated me when we had a miscarriage. If you hadn't said somebody else's name when we were kissing, if you hadn't done this, if I hadn't felt rejected, if I hadn't felt wounded recently or a long time ago." And there's a big mismatch usually on the significance of the transgression.
(05:40):
People who've been injured typically will make it much, much bigger than the person who's done the offending. When we have been offended, we're not really ... When we've been offended, we're usually hurt by it, of course, and we're angry by it. But when people have broken trust, they tend to minimize it. So there's a mismatch,
(06:02):
Not only on who's responsible for it, but how significant this is. It didn't mean anything. I didn't love them. It was just sex, that kind of thing. But for the person who's been betrayed, it's like this meant everything. You gave your light to somebody else, you shown for somebody else, you didn't do that for me. And then they often will disagree on the long-term effects of the transgression, that kind of
Morgan (06:22):
Thing.
Brad (06:24):
So any thoughts on any of those?
Morgan (06:25):
Oh yeah, the long-term effects, right? Oh, well, you'll be fine or this will blow over. They kind of minimize the hurt in a sense because it can be painful if you actually sit with it and you actually feel it or you actually think about what your actions have done.
Brad (06:45):
Yeah, exactly, Morgan. And here's the thought. It would hurt. Yeah. The long-term effects of the transgression, they can look at ... And I'm using the word transgression because that's how researchers write about this. They'll write about it as a transgression or the offense might be another way to think of this. Sometimes people who've been injured, or excuse me, say that differently, sometimes people who've broken trust will think, "Well, I've been hurt for a while. I've been wounded for a while. I've lived with this for a long time. I didn't make a big deal out of it. I got over it. So you're making a big deal out of this and I lived with something that's equally painful."
Morgan (07:27):
Oh, right. And I didn't make a big
Brad (07:28):
Deal about it. I didn't make a big deal out of it. So that's where there can be a big discrepancy,
Morgan (07:32):
Those
Brad (07:32):
Longterm effects, like, why should I help you get over this when I've been hurt for a long time? And because there's a severe mismatches in who's responsible and the significance of the transgression or the offense and the long-term effects of what happened, that offense, it's going to really impact people's ability to forgive and our ability to reconcile. So that's going to be really a big deal. That's important. It is a huge deal.
Morgan (08:00):
Yeah. So the victim will feel anger and the perpetrator will feel guilt ideally when there's a transgression like this, right? Yeah. I mean, it's not ideal. It's never ideal to feel
Brad (08:11):
Terrible. Well, in a way it is. You want the person who hurt you to at least feel bad about what they've done because then that means they probably won't do it again.
Morgan (08:19):
And that's what's necessary to be present for there to be a good apology, right? But if, again, like what you're saying, if the person who had the affair is justifying the affair or the transgression because they were so hurt, I mean, it makes sense that they would do that, but it gets in the way of real healing. And so that's the point and the purpose of this conversation today is really to help you remove the blocks to helping your spouse heal and healing yourself. And it's also commentary on some research that recently came out on this very thing.
Brad (08:56):
Yeah. I just looked this up there. I'm looking at the original research article. They used the phrase needs-based model of reconciliation. So like Morgan mentioned, victims feel anger, perpetrators feel guilt. So when we are the offender, we feel guilt. If we don't think it was intentional, if it's intentional, people don't feel guilt. When people feel like it's like ... And we're going to break that down in a second, and that's really important, but victims will usually feel anger because they feel hurt. They need to know we're sorry. And that's what apologies to.
New Speaker (09:34):
Yes.
Brad (09:35):
So when the person who broke trust can't be sorry for their affair or express remorse, those kinds of things, part of what they can't do is they can't show that they're willing to not compromise, but compensate for what they've done and they can't show that they're ... Usually they don't really have a sincere apology. If they do, it's more of a polite apology.
Morgan (09:57):
But
Brad (09:57):
What apologies do is they really help people get these needs met. And what I mean by that is for reconciliation, there's different needs that have to get met. For the offender, there's a need to not lose social exclusion. That's the way the researchers describe it, meaning I don't want to be cut off from you. I care about you. I want this relationship. And for people who've been injured, part of what they need is they need to know that you're here and you won't do this again, that you're truly sorry for what happened. And that's where their anger comes in. It's like, okay, I don't sense that you're really angry and-
Morgan (10:40):
Or that you're really sorry.
Brad (10:41):
Yeah, excuse me. Yeah. I don't sense that you're really sorry. And because of that, it makes me angry because it compounds my hurt.
Morgan (10:47):
That's right. Yeah.
Brad (10:48):
And what's there is hurt is driving the anger that's seen.
Morgan (10:53):
Yeah. And in situations like that, that's when we'll see people look to get help for the betrayer before the betrayer can become a healer. So most of the time, in general, when we're generalizing the healing process or the healing journey, the person who's been betrayed needs healing, right? They're the first to begin the healing process or they're the first one in the relationship to get healing. When we're working on the relationship issues post-infidelity, it's usually the hurt partner who needs to be helped, right? But if the betrayer or the person who stepped out of the relationship, the unfaithful person, if they have all these hurts and resentments built up, which happens, then sometimes we have to start there. We have to start with those hurts in order for them to be able to have that sincere apology, that sincere remorse for what happened or what they did, and then for them to be able to help their hurt spouse heal.
(12:03):
And so it seems backwards at that point where it's like, "Well, you've hurt me, you've betrayed me, and now I have to help you heal." A lot of people will feel resentment towards that as well. So it's this balance, this dance that we have to help you with, which is interesting. It's an interesting way to think about it that people don't often understand, but it's very much there, right? You have a long relationship, things happen throughout the years. Lots of scenarios can come about that would cause someone to feel like they need to step out of the relationship and be unfaithful. Not that it's justified. We never justify that, but it is the reality of life for
Brad (12:48):
Some- Well, it's how people rationalize this because to have an affair, people will rationalize it. They'll jump through hoops. They'll remind themselves of, "Well, here's when I was hurt.
Morgan (12:56):
Here's
Brad (12:57):
When I was offended.
Morgan (12:58):
Here's
Brad (12:58):
When you didn't help me. " And they do that to help themselves still feel like a good person.
Morgan (13:03):
Right. That moral disengagement. That
Brad (13:05):
Moral disengagement. And then when D-Day happens, the affair gets discovered. They don't snap out of that thought process overnight. So when it gets discovered, they may not come home. They may leave and go to the affair partner's house. They may in the affair because they feel like, "Okay, I got caught. I don't want to leave because we got kids," but they're not truly engaged with their heart. Right.
Morgan (13:25):
And that's that social piece, right? The fear of social abandonment or social, what do they call it?
Brad (13:30):
Exclusion.
Morgan (13:31):
Social exclusion. That's right. Yeah. And so that's still a place to start in the healing journey. That's still where people begin and it's not hopeless or totally impossible at that point. It's just the reality of the healing journey. It's not very linear for most people. So that's important. That's really good. This research article that we were reading was very, very helpful,
Brad (13:55):
Very useful. So part of this, so what helps us ... We need remorse because remorse is a form of ... There's implicit things that are promised with remorse and apologies. There's a sense of it's an acknowledgement of wrongdoing and it's an expression of guilt and apologies are important because they communicate that the offender believes that what they did should not have happened and should not happen again. So that's important. So there's some reassurance there like, "Okay, you believe it shouldn't have happened and it won't happen again." But also apologies also implicitly promise that the offense will not be repeated.
New Speaker (14:34):
Apologies
Brad (14:34):
Also imply that the offender is distancing themselves from their prior actions and they're admitting that they're wrong.
Morgan (14:42):
That they were wrong. Yeah.
Brad (14:43):
So that's really important. And that's hard for people to do when they felt like when the act was intentional.
(14:52):
So there's this mismatch, there's a mismatch. And what I mean by that is the more somebody who feels like, "Okay, you hurt me on purpose. This was intentional. How could it not be? It's an affair. You committed infidelity. You intentionally meant to hurt me. Maybe you didn't think I was going to find out, but I did and it destroyed me. You intentionally meant to do this. " When people have been wounded in that way, when they're dealing with betrayal trauma, they're deeply wounded, they need their partner who broke them to really step up and become a healer and take ownership for what happened. Here's where the mismatch happens is the more somebody feels like their decision to have an affair was intentional. It wasn't a one night stand. It was, "I went out of my way to go start a relationship. I went out of my way to go have an affair.
(15:40):
I wanted this and I knew you would be destroyed. If you found out, those people struggle to become a healer."
Morgan (15:48):
That's right.
Brad (15:48):
Because for them, it was intentional. And that intentionality, Morgan, requires rationationalization. They knew there was going to be consequences. They knew this was going to be a big deal.
Morgan (15:59):
I see that a lot whenever someone is on the rebound, like their spouse cheated on them and then they go and cheat as a rebound, I guess you'd say. I don't have a better- We're
Brad (16:12):
Avenge affair. We've talked
Morgan (16:14):
About that. Yeah. Yeah. We see that a lot in that scenario where they're hurt, they're broken and they think you did this to me. Well, the only way to heal or to get back some balance in my life, I have to go and do it to you. And it's really drinking poison and hoping that your spouse feels the repercussions and they do, but it's more painful. It adds pain to pain and it doesn't really have the healing effect that you really, really are wanting.
Brad (16:43):
Yeah. Yeah. And so a true apology admits that wrong was committed. It includes expressing guilt or remorse about the harm that was caused and it also implies a promise not to repeat the offense in the future. So that's really important. And if we can apologize in a way like this, offenders are able to distance themselves from their prior harmful actions, and that signals to the injured partner that they recognize that behavior was unacceptable. So it can really begin those first steps of building trust. However, these deep offenses deprive the injured partner and the offender of different psychological needs. We kind of referenced this earlier. Those who've been injured experience feelings of infuriority and anger and response to those offenses, whereas the person who broke the trust, had the affair is going to suffer from a fear of exclusion like, "I'm going to be ostracized. Our family and friends will know what I did.
(17:45):
I'll be the bad guy." And because of that, it results in the experience of guilt. And so when people apologize, it also serves their needs like, okay, I've done something to begin to compensate for this, not a total jerk. And then for the person who was betrayed, it also begins to compensate because it's saying, "I know what I did was wrong." And it helps them begin to have trust, the degree of security that are there.
Morgan (18:12):
Yeah. And of course, when you've been betrayed, you're kind of a sleuth in so many ways. You become, what is it? You can seek out and understand everything that's untruth, you can kind of ... What is it? I'm trying to think of words, but you can sniff it out and if it doesn't feel totally genuine, then you're going to ask again and again, again. And that's what that repetitive come-
Brad (18:41):
They become a human lie detector.
Morgan (18:42):
That's what I was looking for. Human lie detector. And so you might have to apologize multiple times in different ways until they feel a sense of safety there. And it might be that it'll take you a while to really work it out yourself and truly feel the remorse or truly understand the repercussions and that sort of thing. So again, it's not linear and it's a process.
Brad (19:07):
Yeah. And Morgan, without an apology, the researchers also talk about a phenomenon. It's called the apology forgiveness cycle where you can't really ... It's very hard to forgive for the average person unless there's an apology first. Usually people don't write blank checks to apologize unless they've been-
Morgan (19:28):
Or to forgive. ... to
Brad (19:29):
Forgive them. Yeah, thank you. They don't write blank checks to forgive unless they've been apologized to. It requires a heroic degree of virtue to be able to forgive if somebody hasn't apologized first or begin to make attempts to compensate. And so what you get is a negative cycle where both people maybe feel justified in their anger, their position, and then we get into this standoff where nobody wants to compromise or change. And so here's how both sides can see apologies for people who ... Do you want to lead us in this?
Morgan (20:03):
Oh, sure. Yeah. So the way they see apologies. So the perpetrator, how they would see an apology is a way to distance themselves from the wrongdoing. So you want to show that it's not who I am. It's not who I am. I didn't do this as ... It's not my personal self, right? It's not who I am. It's not what I stand for. And then it can also be a tool to restore the relationship with the victim and reduce relational damage. So that's really one way that the perpetrator would see the apology.
Brad (20:36):
Yeah. I can distance myself from this. The person who had the affair, I can distance myself from this. It's not who I am. It's not what I stand for. It's my identity. And then it restores a relationship with a betrayed. And for people who've been betrayed, how they typically see an apology is they see it as compensation. It's almost symbolic in a way.
Morgan (20:54):
Even
Brad (20:54):
Though I'm not getting anything, I'm getting from you an acknowledgement, almost like a payment in a way for being harmed. It also helps restore fairness and justice after the offense that created this wide gap between us that broke our trust. And then it serves as a tool for reconciliation because if I don't even have the basics of an apology or we're using apology kind of loosely like apology or remorse, probably have the basics of remorse or an apology from you, how can I reconcile?
Morgan (21:26):
You've
Brad (21:27):
Just hurt me in the deepest way possible. How can I reconcile with you if you're not even going to be able to say you're sorry? So how can I move forward with that? How can I begin to
Morgan (21:38):
Wait to feel seen and heard and validated in the pain that yes, it's natural and normal for me to feel this way. And an apology kind of validates that.
Brad (21:49):
Yeah. And then part of this too, Morgan, is kind of like we talked about last time ... Oh my goodness, I'm having a little-
Morgan (21:57):
It's okay, Joe. ...
Brad (21:58):
Rain moment. Morgan and I both have been awake
Morgan (22:01):
All night with the baby. The one-year-old.
Brad (22:04):
One-year-old. So-
Morgan (22:06):
The victims. Yeah.
Brad (22:07):
Yeah. So for the person who broke trust, their core emotional need is guilt. Guilt is central for them, but guilt as long as they don't feel like what they ... Let me say that differently. Guilt is an internal driver for them as long as they didn't intentionally go out of their way to have an affair. And what I mean by that is sometimes the more somebody felt burned out in their marriage prior to their affair, the more deeper that affair will be emotionally, and then the harder it will be for them to have that to become a healer for their
Morgan (22:45):
Marriage. Yeah, that turnaround.
Brad (22:46):
Sometimes people who are the best healers, the affair for them was just sex. They were just using a person for sex, that kind of thing. It didn't mean anything. It was opportunistic. It was terrible to do, but they become a better healer because they weren't as burnt out in their marriage as somebody who ... So guilt is going to be more of a driver for somebody like that versus somebody who felt burned out
Morgan (23:10):
Because
Brad (23:11):
Intentionality determines guilt. Because again, to repeat what we said earlier, that intentionality piece is, "Yeah, I went out of my way to do this. I knew it was wrong. I rationalized it so I wouldn't feel bad. I told myself things to make myself feel like this was okay." So guilt can be a core emotion for them and it motivates repair, it motivates reconciliation. They're trying to make things right. And the more guilt they feel, the more likely they are to apologize. So they're more likely to be a healer. However, some people struggle with this, not because the affair was necessarily intentional, it can also be because they have deep shame. We've talked about that earlier.
Morgan (23:54):
Yes. In our podcast.
Brad (23:56):
Yeah. We talked about shame, how that plays a big role where people just at their core feel unlovable. Sometimes people like that fall into infidelity already, but there's other reasons beyond intentionality and that kind of thing. There's shame. There's other reasons why people can struggle to show that.
Morgan (24:16):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so then on the victim side, the core emotion really driving their need for an apology for this sort of reconciliation is anger, right? Anger is central and being linked to feeling that injustice or the victimization and wanting compensation, retribution, really the compensation piece, like, "You did this. I need you to help me. " And then indirect evidence suggests that anger can still go with reconciliation attempts. So anger doesn't always mean I'm done. It can also mean that this matters. We see this all the time. If you're totally burnt out and you're just ready and you're out the door, oftentimes there's not a lot of feeling. There's not a lot of emotion. There's just dry information that just lack of care. But when there's anger, that's usually a good sign. It means that there's still sparks left, right? There's still that light on in the relationship.
(25:14):
And so the anger piece is important.
Brad (25:18):
Yeah. And anger is important too because anger is tied to the idea of justice. I want something that was taken from me that belongs to me. So anger is actually a repair tool for reconciliation, which the irony in that is, is like, okay, you're angry with me. I'm the one who had the affair and you have rightful anger. I cannot approach you because it feels like your anger is so much. You're expressing this anger because you want me to approach you. You want me to be engaged. That anger is there because you need me to be engaged. And that anger is screaming for help. Do something. Stand up. Why won't you do something? I matter to you. Show me I matter to you. And so that anger is like forcing a response, but the irony is that anger is forcing a response because it cares, but-
Morgan (26:07):
It doesn't describe it in that
Brad (26:08):
Way. No, not at all. Because it's really masking hurt because powerlessness is what people feel when they're hurt. Like, oh my gosh, I'm in such anguish. I'm in such hurt. However, that anger for somebody who's been unfaithful usually is a huge trigger for them. It causes them to feel helpless. Oh my gosh, I've done too much. I cannot prepare this. That's a great mismatch as well. The anger is saying, like you said, let's fix this. I want to reconcile with you. But when I see that anger, it causes me to think, oh my God, I can't do this. This will never work. She never forgive me. Yeah. She'll never forgive me, that kind of thing.
Morgan (26:47):
It reminds me when we were at Core Skills, I think it was with Sue Johnson. I remember walking up to ask Sue. Sue, is anger always a bad sign? And I remember asking her that. Sue, is anger ever something that can be useful or helpful in a relationship in the negative cycle? And she was like, "Yeah, yeah. There are moments where anger can be of use." And this is, I believe, one of those moments where ... But to your point though, anger expressed rightly with justice in mind is different than just belligerent anger where I'm going to act your car and just spew all of the insults everywhere.
Brad (27:33):
Yeah. There's a primary anger. "You are threatening my children, stay away." And then there's an anger that's secondary. I'm really hurt or I'm really sad and I'm just lashing out. And that kind of anger- Is destructive. Is destructive. It's not protecting anybody.
Morgan (27:49):
Right. It's protective. I think that's a very useful and important word that's protective. It's protective. It's protective of my heart, protective of our relationship, protective of your feelings. It's not just destructive. It's not destructive. It's got love at its core, right? Love is wanting what's good for the other person.
Brad (28:09):
Yeah, exactly. Now for the perpetrator, or excuse me, I use that word, that's the word the researchers use. For the person who had the affair, the offender, how that idea of intentionality, they went out of their way to have this affair. It's intentional. I wanted to do this. I meant to do this.
(28:28):
If it's unintentional, like I had a one night stand or this person came onto me, I was drinking too much, I was really depressed. For them, at least immediately, when it's unintentional, at least immediately, it tends to produce more guilt in the short term right after it happened. They can develop guilt later where somebody ... What I mean is somebody who is intentional and having an affair went out of their way to have an affair, for them, they can develop guilt later. Usually you don't see it upfront. For them, it's kind of like they've had time to think, reflect, maybe some months have passed even and they've had an opportunity to think about what they've done and then they're like, "Oh my gosh, now I'm sorry." I've met people where they weren't sorry at all and then about nine months later, now they're deeply sorry.
(29:21):
And for people who've been betrayed, that's really hard. It's like, where has this
New Speaker (29:24):
Been?
Brad (29:25):
I'm grateful for it now, but golly, I could have used this the moment I found out about your affair. So usually with the more intentional somebody was in having an affair, the more they planned it, rationationalized it, wanted it, so to speak, the less guilt they're going to have, the less motivated they're going to be because they weren't as worried about losing the relationship. And like we talked about earlier, a need for people who've broken trust is they have anxiety about social exclusion. They don't want to be socially excluded. They can rational Nationalize that away. Well, I will leave to go be with this other person. They're not as afraid of being alone, so they're not as afraid of ending the relationship. And then you're going to see more guilt when there was less planning. So usually, not that an affair is ever an accident, but it hurts outside of an affair that are accidents people are more likely to apologize for because it's unintentional.
Morgan (30:27):
It's
Brad (30:27):
Like, oh my gosh, I feel so bad about this. But when people are intentional about this, they really tend to justify it in their head before. And those justifications buffer the guilt they have.
Morgan (30:40):
Right. Which makes the apology just that much less possible.
Brad (30:45):
And Morgan, something I need to mention before we move on. This comes from some research back in 2013. And in the research, they asked them the specific question of, tell us about a time you felt justified in doing something to hurt somebody else. And then when somebody else felt justified in hurting you, that's where they got this. So they weren't getting these accounts from separate people. Hey, tell us about a time when you were hurt and then- Going to someone else. Yeah. And then you didn't hurt them. Tell us about a time where you hurt somebody and then ...
Morgan (31:21):
And then you were hurt by them or by someone else.
Brad (31:24):
By someone else. So they got victim perpetrator accounts.
Morgan (31:27):
From a single person, each person.
Brad (31:28):
Yeah. So got away from labels like psychopath and narcissists and that kind of thing.
Morgan (31:33):
So easy to do. Yeah.
Brad (31:35):
Yeah.
Morgan (31:36):
Okay. Let's see. What else should we ...
Brad (31:39):
Well, part of this too, Morgan, to kind of piggyback on intentionality, victims will see an act as intentional if the person sets out to do it and succeeds in a transgression. That means, okay, you willfully harmed me. You went out of your way to do this. When there's that intentionality there, I'm hurt by that. And there's some research that they mentioned in this that talked about how victims can be equally hurt, just as hurt by unintentional things as by intentional. But the perpetrator's willingness to apologize is more likely to be seen when it was unintentional. So that's really important. So the victim is hurt on either side, like I'm hurt by what you did,
Morgan (32:28):
Whether
Brad (32:28):
It was intentional or not, I'm equally hurt. However, the person who broke trust, the unfaithful partner, they're more likely to want to apologize and express remorse when it was unintentional because her guilt is the strongest. Wasn't planned for. There's still a good person. There's an accident. They want to make it right. But when they're intentional with it, that's when they struggle with it the most.
New Speaker (32:55):
Yeah, that makes
Brad (32:55):
Sense. And the victims in this research, they need an apology the most when it was intentional.
Morgan (33:02):
Oh, that's right. So
Brad (33:04):
There's a big mismatch.
Morgan (33:05):
That's right. That's the big mismatch where it's like the person who stepped out of the relationship or what the research calls perpetrator, they want to apologize or feel that guilt when it was unintentional because it wasn't something that I did out of malice. I'm not a bad person. But then they don't want to apologize when it's intentional. That's not probably every single case. So we're not telling you in your circumstance that this is absolutely the case for you. This may not be the case. They may just not know how to apologize. They may just not know how to access that emotion. That's possible. Sometimes that's very possible for different people. But in this particular research, that's what they found. But then the mismatch then becomes that the hurt person, like Brad is saying, really needs the apology when it was intentional. But they don't want to give it when it's intentional.
(34:08):
They want to give it when it's unintentional, but then the person who needs the apology is like, it was unintentional.
New Speaker (34:14):
So
Morgan (34:14):
It's like, but they need apology anyways, but either way, but it's that great mismatch there.
Brad (34:21):
It is. It is. And the apology mismatch, like you were talking about that pattern of that. The people who broke trust often feel most motivated to apologize when the person they hurt needs it less. Don't get me wrong. We're talking about infidelity. So
(34:40):
Whether it was a one night stand or a nine year affair or 30 year affair, they're going to hurt like nothing else. But what we can extrapolate from this is that usually when somebody feels like it was an accident, I didn't mean to do it. I was just using this person for sex. Yeah, I kind of thought you might be hurt if you found out, so I tried to hide it so you wouldn't find out. I wasn't really angry with you. I wasn't going on my way to hurt you. Those kinds of people who was just purely physical, not really that emotional, are going to be more motivated to make things
New Speaker (35:09):
Work.
Brad (35:09):
But when somebody's already burned out of their marriage, they don't really want to try.
New Speaker (35:13):
They're
Brad (35:13):
Here because finances are kids, they're stuck. Maybe that's their starting point. They can get to where they need to go, but they're starting at a place of-
Morgan (35:23):
Resentment.
Brad (35:23):
Resentment.
Morgan (35:24):
Yeah. Hurt.
Brad (35:25):
And that's why the affair for them was intentional. They're not going to be as motivated to be a healer. Well, and part of that is they feel like, well, I was the victim. We didn't make love for 25 years. There's a really big actor I like from the 1920s, I won't say his name, but he ended up being in a sexless marriage. And he's like, "Well, if my wife's not going to sleep with me, then I'm going to go out of my way to sleep with these other women who are coming to me. " And it's like, that's a real attitude of entitlement. And sometimes people feel that way like, "Well, if you're not going to be here for me, then I'm going to do what I want to do. " And then when the affair happens, they get swept up in it. They're more likely to get in delimerance.
(36:06):
They're more likely to have an emotional pull. They're more likely to want to leave because of those things.
Morgan (36:11):
They're
Brad (36:12):
Going to be less motivated to make it work.
Morgan (36:14):
Yeah, that's hard. That's a hard place to
Brad (36:15):
Be. Again, like Morgan mentioned, people who are the victim or the injured partner, they're going to want that apology in situations where they're least likely. They're going to want it most likely in situations where they're less likely to get one like, "I need you to be here and help me heal." So we got a negative cycle and we got to get out of that. We created a program to help people and couples just like you get out of this negative cycle because this is a big part of that negative cycle that couples get it
Morgan (36:46):
To you. It keeps you stuck for sure.
Brad (36:47):
Yeah, definitely. And so what actually predicts, Morgan, whether an apology happens.
Morgan (36:53):
That's a good question. So the victim's need for an apology generally does not determine whether an apology is issued, sadly. So just because you need it doesn't mean it's going to happen without help, of course. So this means victims can have a high need and still not receive an apology, especially after intentional harm, which kind of sums up what we've been talking about today.
Brad (37:15):
Yeah.
Morgan (37:17):
Yeah.
Brad (37:18):
And so the apology behavior, like the repair behavior, it will track not so much what the victim needs or the injured partner needs, but it will track unfortunately more often what the person who broke trust needs, the unfaithful partners, what they need and their willingness to give it, unfortunately not the person they hurt. So it kind of tracks what they feel like they need.
Morgan (37:45):
Oh, right.
Brad (37:46):
Well, I was hurt. So what you'll see is you'll see this big mismatch where they're not willing to do whatever it takes, at least upfront. They can get there, but they don't start with it. And what they'll do is like, I didn't have a voice. I need us to work on our marriage. I can't talk about the affair. I got to go back to when I had a miscarriage and you weren't there. I got to go back to when I lost my job and you weren't there. I got to go back to maybe- When
Morgan (38:10):
My dad died or my mom passed
Brad (38:12):
Away. Yeah. Some area where I was hurt before I can come back and address this with you. And that's okay if that's where we're at. We've talked about prior episodes that there's the Healing Broken Trust triangle. You have to deal with the trauma that's there from our situation.
Morgan (38:30):
Or even your personal life.
Brad (38:32):
Yeah, your personal life. Wherever the trauma comes from, you have to address that. You have to address the fair material and you have to address general marriage issues. And that's why we created this program that helps
Morgan (38:44):
People do that. All three of those things, which are important. And then people, you can't compartmentalize it necessarily. So it's not always, we're just going to do trauma, we're just going to work on the marriage or we're just going to work on the infidelity piece. It's got to be very often simultaneously done. And so that's what makes it quite an interesting process.
Brad (39:01):
Yeah. And here's the other kicker, Morgan, piggyback on what you're saying, like the person who broke trust usually just wants to kind of go back to square one. "Let's ignore this. Let's forget about this. I will overlook what I did because I've overlooked what you've done for 10 years, 20 years,
Morgan (39:19):
30
Brad (39:19):
Years, that kind of thing. So don't look at my fear. I've overlooked what you did hurt me.
Morgan (39:24):
"And that's important what you're saying because then what happens is they'll say," Well, okay, well, we'll just kind of coexist. We'll raise the children. We'll do the things. "And then they don't go get help or maybe they'll get a counseling session and then they just say," Well, we're fine. They said that they forgave me and then they just kind of want to keep the peace and keep going and not deal with it. "Or it's oftentimes the trauma feeling like you're going to cry forever and you just don't want to do that anymore. It's just so painful. But the problem is it comes back. It doesn't just go away. It doesn't heal without real healing.
Brad (39:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Morgan (39:57):
So it's better to just kind of take care of it, deal with it fully the right way so that it doesn't rear its ugly head 20 years from now. Exactly. And people are like, " But it was 20 years ago. Why is it still a problem? "Well, because it really has to heal.
Brad (40:12):
It's a major trauma.
Morgan (40:12):
Right. It's a
Brad (40:13):
Major trauma.
Morgan (40:14):
Yeah. And that triangle that Brad talks about. Yeah. It's so important to deal with the whole thing.
Brad (40:18):
Yeah. And what we want is obviously we want to be forgiven. We want to forgive them. Like we talked about last time, forgiveness, trust and healing are intertwined. The same path that helps people forgive is the same path that helps people build trust, which also is the same path that people go through to be able to heal. So they're all intertwined. And that's where these apologies are useful. And apologies are showing that we're willing to do what we need to do. We're sorry, we're not going to do it again. To kind of piggyback on what we talked about earlier, apologies are saying like, " I'm here. I'm really sorry for what I've done. I don't want to do this again. I've broken you. I don't want to be that kind of person that hurts you in this way. "And it's admitting wrongdoing. It's expressing guilt or remorse.
(41:06):
It applies a promise not to repeat what happened. And when we don't get that kind of remorse, whether it's an apology or behavior that shows I'm willing to be reassuring, I'm willing to be a healer when we don't get those kinds of things, it really causes people to not build trust, to not heal, and unfortunately not to be able to forgive.
(41:26):
And sometimes we do have to work on the unfaithful partners hurts too, to be able to ultimately heal where we want to go. That's
Morgan (41:35):
Right.
Brad (41:35):
So something we want to leave you guys with is a healing apology.
Morgan (41:40):
Yes.
Brad (41:40):
Here's some words that you can use if you've broken trust and you want to help rebuild. So here we go. I need to say this clearly. I hurt you. I lied. I hid things. I broke the trust and safety in our relationship. You did not deserve that. I can see how this has affected you, how it's affected your sense of reality, your sense of peace, your confidence, and your ability to feel safe with me. I understand that I didn't just hurt you. I changed how you experienced me and how you think about me and how you see me and how you experience our relationship. I'm truly sorry for the pain that you feel, the fear and the humiliation my choices have caused you.
(42:24):
I'm not going to excuse what I did. There may be reasons I was ... I'm not going to excuse what I did. There may be reasons I was vulnerable or selfish, but there's no justification. This is on me. This is not your fault. I also want you to know what I'm going to do now, not just what I feel. I will be fully honest and answer your questions without blaming you or you getting defensive. I will be transparent with my phone, my accounts, my whereabouts, and anything you need right now to feel safer. And I will end all contact with the other person and keep my boundaries clear.
(42:59):
I will do the work I need to do, like going to therapy or going to coaching, going to Brad Morgan's workshop and joining their program. I will learn my negative cycle patterns and I will change my behavior so this never happens again. And I will be patient with your healing because I understand it will take that time for trust to rebuild. I know I can't demand your forgiveness or your trust and I can't rush you, but I'm asking for the chance to prepare what I broke. I'm here, I'm accountable, and I'm willing to be committed to becoming safe for you again one day at a time.
Morgan (43:33):
Yeah. Very good. Yeah.
Brad (43:35):
So thank you for joining us today.
Morgan (43:37):
Yeah.
Brad (43:38):
And we'll see you guys next time.
Morgan (43:39):
That's right. And I'll also make sure that this is on the website because we post this on our website at healingbrokentrust.com and we'll do it on a blog and I'll make sure that you can download that very script so that you have it and you can take notes on it and that sort of thing. And- Thank you guys for
Brad (44:00):
Joining us.
Morgan (44:01):
Yeah.
