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Transcript:
Brad (00:02):
There are differences between the memory of somebody who's been injured and there are differences in the memory of somebody who did the hurting. So when we're that perpetrator, when we act a certain way, when we hurt somebody, we tend to remember that differently than the person who's the victim. When a victim gets hurt, they pay attention to certain details that are different than what the perpetrator pays attention to. Here's the kicker though. We're talking about it today in context of infidelity and broken trust in a relationship. We do this in different scenarios of life. We do this in different areas of life. And so in that sense, we're all victims, we're all perpetrators. And that's really important to know and understand.
Morgan (00:46):
Yes, that's really important because I hear people say all the time, the negative cycle this and negative cycle that, and that's my role. But we take on different roles in different scenarios. And the same goes here. Sometimes we're the perpetrators, sometimes we're the victim in different situations. And so if you're just now joining us, we're Brad Morgan Robinson with Healing Broken Trust. And today we're talking about why both partners remember the betrayal differently. And so welcome.
Brad (01:16):
Yeah. And they can get stuck with this, Morgan.
Morgan (01:18):
Yes.
Brad (01:18):
They get stuck for a reason. It often comes down to memory, why they get stuck, but it's more than that and we're going to explore that. It's more than memory. It's I feel attacked when you're asking me. It's also you're dismissive, you're avoidant, you're withdrawing, you're not really comforting me when I ask these questions. So there is definitely a memory gap. If you've been betrayed and you've ever asked, why did you do this? And what happened here and what happened there? And all you got is, I don't remember or I don't know. There's few things that are as upsetting as hearing that.
(01:49):
And so what we're going to get into is that after infidelity, both partners get stuck for a reason. It often comes down to memory. That's one of the key things. There's more than that. There's a normal negative cycle. There's feeling loved and cared for and cherished trauma, all of that. But a core one is memory. We remember these events differently. The betrayed partner's memory turns into a security system. They're scanning for danger. They're asking a very basic question that anybody would ask, am I safe now? Am I okay? And the unfaithful partner's memory often turns into self-protection mode. They're scanning for shame. Am I done for? Is this it? Are you done with me? Can you ever look at me the same? Can you ever love me the same? So today we're going to break down what each side is experiencing physically in their body, but also why the betrayed asks for details, why the unfaithful avoids those details and how that also shows up in other areas of life.
(02:49):
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A lot of this research that we're getting into was adapted or they studied, this goes back into even 1990s, some research, but it also goes back into South Africa. They had these truth commissions. They had the Civil War. I'm going to butcher the history. If you're from South Africa and be like, "Brad, you're butchering this history." But basically they had a political war, they had apartheid, and the people who wanted to have freedom also pushed for it really aggressively. They were doing political bombing, basically like guerrilla warfare to get it, and they ended up hurting a lot of innocent people in the process. And so they had to have a way to create reconciliation and forgiveness as a country, and they set up truth commissions. And what those truth commissions were looking for is, why did you do what you did? You set off this pipe bomb and car bomb by a playground full of children.
(03:44):
Why did you do that? And a lot of what the people said who are perpetrators are very similar to what people will say who had an affair. But they're also what we say when we're in that role of hurting somebody. That's very important. So these aren't necessarily a different category of people. This is us where we can do these things.
Morgan (04:05):
So it's, again, like we had mentioned a few minutes ago, how important it is that you realize that we take on this both roles from time to time. So how would you like to begin
Brad (04:17):
With the kids? So one of the things that we're going to get into at the end is a simple repair script that you can use, but I'm going to share the perpetrator side, how they see these situations, and Morgan's going to share the victim side, the injured partner side.
Morgan (04:35):
Right. Okay, so let's jump in with the victim side. So of course, when we are victims of a hurt, a major hurt, maybe we've been betrayed, like Brad's talking about, we've been betrayed. The core role, not necessarily our identity, but the injured role that we take, it's not weakness or victimhood. Betrayal is something that happened. So it's something that happened to us and it's not who we are. It's not our identity, which I think is really important to realize that. So yeah, anything you want to add to it?
Brad (05:16):
No, that's perfect. It's not our identity. And the word victim and perpetrator, we're copying those words because that's what the researchers use. And you could say betrayed partner and faithful partner, exact same thing.
(05:30):
And so for people who've been unfaithful, part of what they have is they feel they tend to minimize what happened. They tend to not pay attention to the details. They tend to focus more on external circumstances for what they did. So for them, the memory of what they did is memory for them becomes more about self-protection. It filters details to reduce shame and panic, and the brain is scanning for a threat to identity. Am I unforgivable? I'll give you guys a perfect example that we've probably all been a part of. If you get into a car accident, maybe it's a simple fender bender and you didn't do anything wrong, but the cops there, you're exchanging information and you hear them give their side of the story to the police officer and you're like, "What are you talking about? " There's no details. There's no admission of, "Yeah, I'm wrong." It's like, "Yeah, clearly you're wrong.
(06:30):
The back of my car has a totaled bumper and your car is all busted up." Clearly you're wrong. The evidence proves that, but for people in that situation, they can struggle to really admit what they did because they still are holding on to self-protection. It's not a bad thing or an evil thing necessarily. They're just trying to, "Can I be forgiven? Am I going to bring the house down on myself?" That kind of thing. So memory for them is about self-protection.
Morgan (07:02):
It also reminds me of when you're saying self-protection, people often don't like to ... Well, they're afraid rather. They're afraid that they're going to make things worse and push you away if they're honest. The honesty, it can be very scary. And usually that's a protection mechanism that people have for the relationship. They're like, "If I give the information or if I share what's going on in my mind, then somehow it's going to make things worse." But
Brad (07:37):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's a big part of it is maybe when I was having the affair, I maybe didn't want to leave. Sometimes it's, I was really angry with you or I was really lonely or this ... There's different things that people can feel when they're having an affair. But now that you know and we're looking to reconcile, I don't want to lose you. So anything that can cause you to leave me is really scary. So that becomes a part of it. One of the things that how memory can work for the victim is it becomes more almost like a security system. They can replay things asking themselves, "What did I miss? What was there? What did I miss?" And then they have main questions that they're trying to ask. Morgan, do you want to talk about this?
Morgan (08:21):
Oh yeah, absolutely. So what is memory trying to do? Memory becomes a security system like you're saying. It replays the trauma to protect you. What did I miss? What did I miss? Is a very common question like you were saying. The trauma also impacts the memory. We know that. But the main question underneath the pain that you see and that you hear is, "Am I safe? Am I safe with you? Am I safe now? Can I trust what's real, what you're saying? What am I seeing? And can I trust myself again?" Because clearly things seemed fine for most of this time, but I had no idea that you were being unfaithful or that sort of thing. So not trusting ourselves, of course, is part of what happens is the aftermath of infidelity.
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Brad (09:13):
Yeah. Am I safe now? Can I trust what's real? Can I trust myself again? There's also, can I trust you?
Morgan (09:18):
Yeah.
Brad (09:19):
Oh, yeah. The common scenario that people will find themselves in is, can I even trust a hug from you? Is this hug legit? Can I lean into you and receive this hug? Even hugs can be triggering. So can I trust this? So there's a lot of questions that people will have.
Morgan (09:35):
And a person who is on the betraying side, the unfaithful side, they'll be open, they'll be honest. And the partner who was betrayed very often will be untrusting of that because how can I know that this is real and that sort of thing. So you might be telling them all the right things and all of the important things and they still won't quite trust it. It takes a special kind of help to heal through that and rebuild trust. So
Brad (10:07):
The main questions for the perpetrator that are there is like we already established, can I survive shame?
New Speaker (10:13):
Will
Brad (10:13):
You ever see me differently? How do I live with what I did? And part of what they'll do to help them live with what they did is they tend to focus more on circumstances. Well, the circumstances are why I did what I did.
New Speaker (10:27):
Oh, right.
Brad (10:28):
It wasn't so much I had a true choice in the matter. It was more, I was hurt, I was lonely, I was sad. It's more driven by circumstances.
Morgan (10:37):
And intentions. Yeah,
Brad (10:39):
That kind of thing. So that's how they help themselves out with themselves. And then it shows up in the body. For people who've been unfaithful, part of what is is they feel shame. They can even feel things like their butterflies in their stomach, heat in their face, which can sound silly until you experience it. A lot of tension, blake mind, definitely a desire to flee, and then they can go numb. They can just kind of shut down. They can flood. Morgan, what about people? How does it show
Morgan (11:07):
That
Brad (11:07):
People have been-
Morgan (11:08):
On the victim side of things. So how it feels in the body, there's the fight or flight, fight, flight, or freeze that activates very quickly. And often when you're not expecting it, there's the tight chest, the nausea, the racing heart, the sleeplessness. All of those things are what people experience, which influences and affects their memory of what's going on. We've talked about this on our podcast often. When we've had this betrayal, often we look back and we remember our relationship so much differently than we would've when we have positive feelings going on right now. So you might have a 20-year marriage and then something like this comes out and it might've been really good at times, but we'll reremember it differently than if we were to have happier positive feelings. So it comes out in the body that way and affects the memory.
Brad (12:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And part of what it does is how the memory for somebody who's been betrayed is time will actually slow down. And that's a really key distinction. So in this research, about 53% of the people who were injured, the victim in these scenarios they were studying, time actually slowed down when they got the bad news, when the incident happened. And for the person who was the perpetrator who broke trust or hurt another person, about 25% of the time, time sped up. So time is slowing down. Say time slows down for you. What you're going to remember is century details,
(12:52):
What you were thinking, smelling even, what people were wearing, things like that. A lot more detail. But for somebody who broke trust, time speeds up. It's like, I don't know what I was thinking. It was rushed. It was like I had to do it. I was forced to act. It was out of my control. Circumstances made me act. So there's a big memory gap. And they call that memory gap the magnitude gap because it's like time slows down for the injured, time speeds up for the perpetrator. And so as a result, the person who is the victim, when they tell their story of what happened, the story is longer. It's more emotional. It's going to be rich in detail, that kind of thing. It's going to include conversations. They're going to talk about the aftermath of what happened. That's exactly what happened to me after I was betrayed.
(13:40):
I'm a normal guy. I don't remember a lot of details, but after I was betrayed, I remembered every conversation, remembered all kinds of details that I wouldn't normally have remembered. But for people who have broken trust, how they tell their story, it tends to be shorter, more of a summary. They focus on explanations and they focus on justifications. They'll say things like, "It's happened, it's over, why relive it? " But they focus on justifications. They try to give a short explanation. And you'll see that play out anytime there's a fender bender and you're not the one who did it, but you're the car that got rammed into, and then you're both telling the police officer what happened. The person who did it, it's like, "I don't really remember. It happened so fast. I don't know what happened." Or the road was slick. They're blaming it on other things.
(14:32):
But for the person who got hurt, it might be a little harder to initially think because they're in shock, but their memory is richer, has more detail. And so what happens, here's where this magnitude gap
New Speaker (14:45):
Shows up,
Brad (14:45):
Morgan, is I've been betrayed. How do you not remember this? How do you not know what you're thinking? How do you not know what you were doing on this night? Did you kiss then? Did you have sex then? Did you do this then? How do you not know? And people who've been betrayed want details. Did you turn right to go to their house or did you go left to turn their house? Because if you went right, that tells me this and this and this. If you turn left, it tells me this and this. It means two different things. And for somebody who's broken trust, they're like, "What does it matter if I turned right or left?" It didn't make any sense, but there's a big magnitude gap. And what that magnitude gap means is if you're not as thorough in explaining this to me as somebody who's been betrayed as a perpetrator, if you're not as thorough as in this explanation as I expect you to be, you're not taking it seriously.
(15:35):
You're not sincere. You're not sorry. You're not trying. And what that tells somebody who's been betrayed when there's memory lapses that we're in trouble. I can't trust you. You're not taking total responsibility. And what I'm trying to say by sharing this with you guys is there's just gaps that happen. Obviously, there's great cover stories where somebody will use if they're going to lie. They do lie. They do cover their tracks. They do trickle truth. That happens. So I don't want to act like they don't do that. However, just our default sometimes
(16:11):
Is we just have these two different perspectives of memory to begin with. So it's a challenging situation. It's made worse when somebody's intentionally lying because it's like, okay, I've listened to Brad and Morgan, they talked about this magnitude gap and memory. There's research behind it. It's kind of a phenomenon that happens in infidelity, but other situations, I guess that kind of makes sense. I guess I can give you the benefit of the doubt, but if I catch you lying and then trickle truth, and then like you said, it wasn't sex and then it was, it was just emotional. It's what you've always claimed. Now there's another person
Morgan (16:45):
And
Brad (16:46):
Then there's more. Screw ever trying to trust you. This is stupid. I can't do that. So this could really be abused what we're talking about where somebody could listen to this and be like,
Morgan (16:56):
"Ah,
Brad (16:58):
I got a great cover story." And
Morgan (16:59):
Good reason for why I don't remember, but that's not what this is about.
Brad (17:03):
No, it's not about that. This is a thing that's true, but there's also other things that are true where people take advantage, people do lie, people do cover their tracks. Like we were talking about earlier, perpetrator is afraid, they're in shame, they're this or that, that kind of thing. And so I want to just lay that out there, obviously throw out the obvious kind of a thing, but the memory of the victim is going to be longer, more rich and detailed, more emotional. They're going to remember why you did X, Y, Z.
Morgan (17:32):
And then so it's going to be hard for them to not expect you to also be able to answer in great detail with richer, vibrant- Yeah, it's going to be hard for the victim to- To understand why it's not so great in detail, why it's not so rich in knowledge and understanding of the situation. So that's important. Our filter is going to be different than our partner's filter. And the trauma each person has is going to filter the information that they remember and that they have for you. So yes, so treating the trauma is very important.
Brad (18:08):
Yeah. And then obviously somebody who's a victim is going to ask for details because that's what they're oriented to. Right.
Morgan (18:12):
That's right.
Brad (18:13):
Time slowed down. I remember everything. I can tell you where I was at, what I was thinking, what you were wearing, what I was wearing.
Morgan (18:18):
My history's being rewritten.
Brad (18:20):
Yeah, everything. Time is split into perpetrator. They avoid details. Each detail spikes fear for them. Avoidance gives them brief relief. However, it blocks empathy. They're not really truly engaged hopefully the way they should be. But when the victim gets triggered, they ask questions, those questions become urgent, voice intensifies. They have these horrible mind movies. They just replay things. And so they're living it.
Morgan (18:50):
Right, that's
Brad (18:50):
Right. When the perpetrator, they defend, they minimize, they shut down, leave the room. So what can happen is we get stuck because there's no truth, because there's no full truth. I can't feel calm as the betrayed. There's no empathy for me, so I'm not safe. And then your repeated defensiveness reopens a wound for me. You're telling me by your behavior of defensiveness and trickle truth and those kinds of things, it doesn't make me feel any safer. It actually, even though it's not the same as an affair, like a white lie or you're withdrawing, your lack of concern for me actually signals to me, you're still unsafe. You still don't get it. That pattern of behavior of being choosing yourself or being selfish is still present and you're not choosing me. And then the perpetrator, they tend to feel things like shame, defensiveness, which creates more harm because it creates more harm in you.
(19:49):
It creates more shame in me.
Morgan (19:52):
Yeah. And it's important also to know that sometimes the betrayed person or betrayer will be telling the truth. And again, the trade partner is unable to accept it. And that again is the trauma piece that is important to deal with. And so yes, to keep that in mind.
Brad (20:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with all that. Part of this is basically, Morgan, we ought to get into what they need.
Morgan (20:18):
Oh yeah,
Brad (20:18):
That's important. So do you want to get into what victims need?
Morgan (20:21):
Sure. Yeah. So in those moments when memory is, we're trying to understand. So validation, right? Validation before information. So that's really being able to have that empathy and a lot of people need help with that. So validating, I know this is really hard. And also you need to be patient to have a validation, a validating voice. Patience is going to be huge, hugely important in this process. So validation before information, knowing that sometimes the information, sometimes the information is not as important as how you make your partner feel as you are helping them understand what happened and what's going on in their situation. So validation before information. And then the second one would be emotional presence. Eye contact really working hard to stay engaged and not run. It's so easy to do. I'm one of those that can fall into avoidance and be like, oh my gosh, I can't be here anymore.
(21:23):
Just kill me now. No, I'm just kidding. But you can feel like that. It's like, I can't answer the same questions over and over and over again. I'm going to lose my mind. But it's important when you're feeling that, still be present. Use the eye contacts, which is kind of a simplified version of just staying present, emotionally present and validating. Yes, I know. I realize, maybe I don't know, but I realize that this is really difficult. This is really challenging. What I've done is wrong and what I've done has really hurt you. And I'm here to be with you and to be patient with you and with us and with this process, I'm not going anywhere. And that does help often to kind of lower that triggered response that the hurt partner feels. And so that's important. What about you, Brad? Yeah. You want to do the other side?
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Brad (22:18):
Yeah. So I think you said some ... I'm going to comment a little bit on what you said. I think validation before information is really important. Offering that preassurance like we talked about
Morgan (22:28):
Before.
Brad (22:29):
I'm present. I'm here with you. There's certainly thing I can do to help you talk through this with you is really important. Part of what people will do is when they explain, get defensive because they explain themselves. They think if you just knew how I really felt, you wouldn't get upset. And even though the betrayed is asking for that information, like, what did you really think? They're wanting it in a way that shows I'm concerned about you.
Morgan (22:53):
About you. Right. I
Brad (22:54):
Care about you. I'm concerned about you. It's not just cold facts. It's not like, yeah, it happened this way and I'm just cold and indifferent to your feelings.
Morgan (23:03):
That's really important. That's very important. I think with any relationship, because they'll ask a detailed information, a detail, where were you? What were you doing? What were you thinking? And it'd be easy to just say, while I was here, I was doing that and I wasn't thinking, right?
New Speaker (23:18):
Yeah.
Morgan (23:19):
But they're really wanting to know, well, what were you thinking about me and us and our marriage and our relationship and this situation? And very often, we've talked about this on the podcast many times about how they really weren't usually thinking about you or the marriage or the relationship that wasn't entering, that wasn't anywhere in the equation typically. But I really like the next step on-
Brad (23:47):
Sure. Yeah. For somebody who's been the perpetrator unfaithful, what they need is more of a structure. They need to know, okay, yes, I do expect us to talk a while about this, especially if we're close to D-Day, but they also need to know there's a beginning and an end. We're going to talk about it for X amount of time. There's a structure to it. We're going to give some sample scripts that can help. They also need to feel safe. Part of what people who've been betrayed ... Excuse me. Part of what people who've been unfaithful need is they don't need to be smothered. And the reason is that they, and I'm speaking generally, the average person who strays is really independent.
(24:30):
They're not very vulnerable. They're afraid of being smothered. They can hyperventilate thinking about being smothered. They can really feel ... There's a fear of closeness that can be there. And you can wonder, why did you have an affair if you were afraid of closeness? They can do that because an affair is not really closeness and it's a distraction from whatever pain they're feeling from their relationship or their marriage. So what they need is to feel safe having these discussions. One of the very first things that we ever have talked about in this podcast, Morgan, is that if we don't deal with the negative cycle we had before the affair, which is usually going to be there after discovery, it shows up on our healing journey. So we want to address that negative cycle that we can get into while we're trying to heal from this.
(25:22):
And it's tricky because now what's here, and that may not have been there earlier before the affair came out, is now trauma. There's a lot more uncertainty like, are we going to stay married or what are we going to do with family, like other people know. There's a lot more confusion, so we got to work harder at creating safety for each other.
(25:41):
And a couple things, there are some things that just absolutely will make this worse. For people who are the perpetrator, if they say, sorry, you feel that way, yeah, good luck. That's going to make it worse.
Morgan (25:52):
It's not going to work.
Brad (25:54):
Sometimes the way we explain things can sound like an excuse, so we got to be careful there. We can blame Shift. I did it because you did this. Or we just kind of avoid the whole conversation altogether, and then they can disappear to avoid any sort of discomfort. I'm just going to avoid the whole topic altogether. And part of what people really need who've had their trust broken is I need you to stay engaged because it's not just you telling me the answers, it's, are you showing me that you're concerned about me? Are you showing me that you care about me? And that warmth and that concern in some ways is almost more important than the answers. And part of this too is probably another topic of an episode, but a lot of people think if I just know the one last detail, I just know the one last thing, I'm going to feel better.
(26:44):
That's not really how it works because part of that's like a trauma response, part of that's like anxiety, but they do need to feel cared for. They do need to feel like you're concerned about them.
Morgan (26:57):
Yeah. For me, if I can just get rid of more clutter in my house, if I can just dump out one more toy that we don't use, I'll feel much better, I'll feel more organized, I'll feel more in control, or if I can just get one more work thing done. So there's lots of ways to avoid and separate emotionally and mentally from the situation, but trying to stay engaged, not letting distractions of work or anything else keep you from engaging with this ... It's difficult, this difficulty. And I want to just say sorry that you feel that way or sorry you feel that way. A better way to say that is, "I'm sorry that I made you feel that way. I'm sorry that we're at this place, but gosh, never apologize to them for the way that they feel because that's just, oh, that's an explosion waiting to happen." But on the other side, when you've been betrayed, making sure that you are not demanding answers midfight.
(28:05):
So you're arguing and demanding answers while they're flooded, basically they're flooded is just not going to get you anywhere. That'll make things worse. Yes, that's not going to work. And then 10 questions at once is not helpful. That will flood them, but also they're already flooded as it is in 10 questions. It's just overwhelming. And then let's see here, surveillance or checking loops. So it's not unreasonable to ask for access to their phone, their electronics, anything like that. That is totally fine. Brad and I both are able to use find my friend. I don't mind at any point for him to look for me on my phone, on his phone or look at my phone. That is a normal request by a spouse.
Brad (29:03):
And that's really like, when are you going to be home?
Morgan (29:05):
Right.
Brad (29:05):
Sometimes it's hard. We don't always answer our phones because we don't hear Marine.
Morgan (29:09):
Yep, don't hear me. Yeah. But the surveillance can be also a trauma response, right? So where you're constantly looking-
Brad (29:18):
Yeah. And things like, there is some of this is obviously okay. You've broken my trust, you're saying you're not going to do it again. You've lied a lot. How do I know it's true or not true? Where it can make things worse is when it signals to a relationship that it's already doomed. We were in this big negative cycle, you were super controlling, I could never do anything right, and now it's just like gasoline on a fire. This just proves that we're in trouble. That's kind of what Morgan's talking about. So some of this is kind of okay given the context of where we're at, but some of this also can kind of signal if we're not careful to a relationship that we're in trouble, that we're doomed and that we're not Kind of work.
Morgan (30:00):
That it's never going to be fixable. Those kinds of
Brad (30:02):
Things.
Morgan (30:02):
Yeah. Will never heal.
Brad (30:04):
Yeah.
(30:05):
Morgan, I want to get into kind of a repair script, things that people can say. So when somebody has been a perpetrator, these are simple things you can say to help repair because part of it is, yeah, we do need to work hard to actively try to remember as best we can. We may never actually know because if it's not logged into our short-term memory, it's not logged into long-term memory. That's right. But there is that component of showing that I care about you, that I'm here with you. So part of what perpetrators can do or people who've been unfaithful is just simple. I hear you. I hear you because you're trying to show concern. I care about you.
New Speaker (30:46):
That you're engaged.
Brad (30:47):
Yeah. I'm not falling into shame. I'm not making it about me. It's like I'm here for you. I'm making it about you. I'm here. How you feel makes sense that you feel this. I'm sorry I caused all of this. I won't defend myself. In fact, here's what I'll do next to try to make this better. Those are kind of simple things that somebody can say. But the key idea is I'm here. I care about you. I'm concerned about you. There's warmth that's there.
Morgan (31:15):
It makes sense that you feel that's- Yeah.
Brad (31:17):
Well, and part of what upsets people who've been betrayed so much is like, where's the warmth? Where's the care for me? You were so reckless with the affair. You did X, Y, Z, you did this and you did that. But now that I'm in pain, you just shut down on me. You're distant again. You're gone
Morgan (31:32):
Again.
Brad (31:33):
Even though you're next to me.
Morgan (31:34):
You're doing what you were doing during the affair even now. It's
Brad (31:38):
That same pattern of you're avoiding me. You're checked out. And that really bothers and hurts people.
Morgan (31:44):
Yeah. We know that if we want something different, we have to do something different. They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over, expecting different results as the memes always say. But it's true. But a repair script on the- For the victim. For the victim is, when I remember X, I feel Y. When I remember you being on your phone during the affair before I knew about all of this, I feel scared when you're on your phone now. Right now, I need X. Right now I need Y. Right now I need a hug. Right now I need space. I need a few moments or something like that. And then please stay with me 10 minutes. Stay with me for a few moments. Just be here with me. And so those are some things that you can do to get your needs met in a healthy way and it repairs things.
Brad (32:48):
Yeah. Yeah. And so if we're in a negative cycle and we need to reset, there's a couple things we can say. For the victim, they can say, "You know what? We're in that negative cycle, Brad and Morgan talk about, let's just slow down. Let's just try to calm down. Maybe even take a break. Let's just calm down." And then for somebody who's broken trust, you can say, "I'm getting defensive. Let me just reset. Let me just start over."
Morgan (33:11):
I want to just preface because what you just said could be really tricky. If you say to your heightened, emotionally charged, betrayed spouse, calm down. The first thing, if it's a she, she's going to say is, "Don't tell me to calm down. I'm going to- "
Brad (33:29):
This has never happened before. No.This is not personal experience.
Morgan (33:34):
No, but so be very careful with how that comes out. You want to say instead, why don't we rest for a moment or something like, I don't know, just tricky. That's tricky.
Brad (33:47):
Well, it is. So what they can say is personal, I'm getting defensive, let's reset.
Morgan (33:54):
Yeah, let
Brad (33:54):
Me reset. I want to be safe for you. Help me do this right. You kind of say it like that.
Morgan (33:59):
That's good. That's
Brad (34:00):
Really good. And so part of this is less defensiveness. We want more empathy, less defensiveness. We want to be able to sit down with our partner's pain, try to answer those questions. And a really good way, I need to say this before we're done today. A really good way to try to help answer those questions as best you can is just write about it. With the assurance that it's not going to become public, if I write about what happened, that you're not going to turn this and use it against me, show our kids, show family and friends, that kind of thing.
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Morgan (34:32):
No. Yeah.
Brad (34:34):
But part of this is there is a magnitude gap. It shows up not just in broken trust situations where an affair has happened or infidelities happened to marriage. It shows up in other situations where somebody is hurt another human. And part of what the researchers said about memory is that not only our perpetrator accounts shorter, but what they do remember is higher justification. They have more parts of their memory where they express justification like, "I did it because of this.
New Speaker (35:06):
"
Brad (35:06):
They kind of focus more on those circumstances. And what they don't focus on is some of those other nitty-gritty details that tend to be there. And part of what the researchers say is that people will exaggerate their memory in self-protective ways. So memory is motivated reconstruction. That's their fancy word they use. It's motivated reconstruction. And both partners, they say, will exaggerate in self-protective ways. And like we said, time can slow down for somebody who's been hurt. They remember where they're at, all the details. It's kind of like in a movie where everything just goes still. A lot of what people will feel after they get betrayed. When I worked with clients who come to our workshops and who are in our program, what they'll say is if I ask them about the memory of finding out, they're like, "Confusion is there, overwhelm, shock." Time slows down for them.
(36:06):
And if you guys need help and you've tried to heal and you're not getting anywhere, or if you're new to, unfortunately, new to this experience of trying to heal broken trust after an affair and you don't want to make a lot of mistakes and you want to really hopefully get on a fast track to healing, we have a program where we can help you really speed up this process by avoiding mistakes and then really hitting those major milestones. We have structure, we have accountability, and it's very comprehensive. You guys can do this.
New Speaker (36:36):
Yes.
Brad (36:36):
You're not alone in this. There's definitely hope and we really don't want to see you struggle with this. This is a nightmare situation to be in. You can get help. You can work through this. Contact our office. We have David, who's a client care coordinator. He can talk to you about our programs, how they work, what we can do to try to help you.
Morgan (36:58):
He'll listen to your situation and make sure that you have a good plan for your particular situation. So everything is customizable. So definitely reach out for a discovery call. Let us talk to you about your situation and see what would be best for you. We appreciate you listening here. Our hope here is to make sure that you have a way forward and that you can really move forward together, healed and have the great future and a wonderful 2026. Yes.
Brad (37:35):
But thank you for joining us today. Look forward to seeing you guys next time. Love to have you come to our workshops, participate in our program. And thank you.
