Ep 10: Why People Cheat, What Makes A Cheater?, What Leads To Infidelity? Why Did This Happen To You?

Brad:

Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else. I'm no longer communicating with you because this negative cycle has beat me up where I'm not asking for my wants and needs.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs and fidelity trust and cheating in your relationship. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. We're on episode 10. We're talking about why do people cheat, why do they cheat? And I think that this one is pretty straightforward. But before we get started, I want to remind you to go to healing broken trust.com/episode 10. That's healing broken trust.com/episode, the number 10, episode 10, and download those free resources that will really help you to walk through this process to truly heal from what you're going through right now. So let's jump into episode 10 and learn why people cheat on our show. We've talked about the different types of affairs, but there is still this looming question of why do people cheat? So Brad, you want to begin to answer this question for our listeners?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, people cheat. There's three primary reasons why people cheat. The first two are not that common, and the third is extremely common. The first reason is sometimes people cheat because they're sex addicts. They have a compulsive tendency to act out. And like all addictions, it's negative impact on the addict and on family members increases as the disorder progresses. And what I mean by that, as people get deeper into this, it gets worse and worse over time. The addict usually has to intensify the addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And let me explain that. When somebody has an addiction, it doesn't satisfy what you start out doing in the beginning, typically doesn't satisfy those urges. So somebody can start with pornography and self-pleasure. A lot of people can stay there who are addicts, but most people will begin to escalate into other things where they start acting out with other people, they start going to prostitutes, they start seeing escorts, they start acting it out. And so over time, the addict will intensify their addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And that's where some affairs come from.

Morgan:

So that fantasy must then become a reality to further satisfy that addiction.

Brad:

And if you think about it, they've been basically viewing pornography. They've been viewing and breaking down mental barriers that most people have to an affair.

Brad:

They're

Brad:

Actually mentally rehearsing an affair when they're viewing pornography. Another thing that's going on is the other type of people who have affairs are the philanders. And I would say that's more an attitude than anything else. And this attitude says there may be something, this attitude of flander, they believe that cheating is okay for them to do. It's something that guys or girls do, and it's more of a rationalization. Okay, just as long as you don't get caught. Sometimes this attitude says there's no way a man or woman is supposed to be monogamous.

Morgan:

It's a myth, right?

Brad:

Yeah, it's a myth. You can't be monogamous,

Morgan:

Which is not true. It's not accurate at all. But they believe that.

Brad:

And this kind of attitude can lead to serial cheating and very flirting behavior, especially when their spouse isn't around. The attitude of the philander says there is nothing wrong with it. They may rationalize what they're doing or saying to themselves, as long as I'm not having sex with them or intercourse with them, it's okay. So kissing is okay. Spending time with them is okay. Sharing intimate parts of my life is okay because I'm not doing X, Y, or Z with them. And of course, they may even believe sex is okay too. Just don't get caught. And I've had different people tell me before that they viewed having an affair as a rite of passage. And it's something that men do as a part of growing up, as a part of maturing their certain

Morgan:

Rites of passages,

Brad:

Certain rites of passage.

Morgan:

And that's what we see in TV and movies all the time. Oh, you're a virgin. That's supposed to be some kind of bad thing.

Brad:

But there's people like that. There's attitudes that affect someone to have an affair, and we're going to get into that in a little bit later. But most individuals I work with, I would describe them as someone who's burnt out in their marriage.

Morgan:

So that's the third category.

Brad:

That's the third category.

Morgan:

Most people fit into the third

Brad:

Category, and we're going to spend most of our time talking about that. But these are people who are burnt out and there are attitudes that affect somebody having an affair. And there's those outside influences, family and friends. Have they had an affair? Have your mom and dad had an affair? If they have, you're more likely to have an affair yourself or coworkers cheating. What are coworkers attitudes about infidelity? What was your family's attitude about infidelity, your friend's attitudes about infidelity and pornography? Like we mentioned earlier, when you're viewing pornography, you are mentally rehearsing an affair. Those are outside influences that affect somebody, make it easier for somebody to cheat. Romance novels. Reading that, you're also mentally rehearsing having an affair. A lot of our entertainment, a lot of movies, a lot of different cultural things that we have, they really do not support the idea of monogamy. And they make infidelity attractive. They make it funny, they make it make it okay, a normal part

Morgan:

Of. So society is what they're telling us, which is not true

Brad:

When you're exactly right about that. So those are attitudes. Those are cultural things. Those are outside influences that make it, that can be associated with family, friends, coworkers, viewing pornography, reading, romance novels or entertainment. Even celebrity culture, it makes it easier for somebody to cheat.

I would even say even certain types of jobs make it easier for people to cheat, especially if you travel for a living, you're in certain professions where it's just easier to cheat. And so affairs really start Morgan here, and I want to get into the root of why people cheat. It really starts with the negative cycle that a couple is in. Most couples I would say are not happy if they're having an affair. The exception with that may be the philanders or the sex addicts. I would say almost everybody else, if they're in this burnt out category, they're not happily married. If they're cheating, I wouldn't classify that as a good marriage. And let me explain the negative cycles, because this is where infidelity starts. There are three kinds of negative cycles. There are the first kinds, the most common kind, and this is a negative cycle where the person who's having the affair is a distancer. They are somebody who is more withdrawn, not very emotionally expressive, typically in the relationship. They avoid. They avoid, and they may not start that way in the relationship though they may get to that place because they feel like they don't matter to their spouse.

Morgan:

They don't know how to ask for wants and needs.

Brad:

They don't know how to get. And so they may get to that point with their spouse. So they may not start that at that place of being a er. They may start at a place of being a pursuer

And a pursuer, and you can go through and listen to our recordings on that. We've talked about that before. So go listen to that. Who are pursuers and who are distancers. But pursuers are the ones who fear being abandoned, fear, rejection. They want to be close. And if they don't get it, they'll escalate their attempts for attention and connection into things like blaming, criticizing, demanding, and distancers are people who will kind of shut down emotionally. They will shut down because they don't think engaging with somebody who's upset with them is going to be that productive. And so that's where negative cycles typically start. And that's the most basic kind. And the person who cheats is a distancer. They're the one distancing from connection

Morgan:

To the relationship and their spouse, right?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

They're more invested in the affair or other things than they are in the relationship at that point, wouldn't you say? Or is that kind of later on?

Brad:

That's later on. But that's true. But that would happen later on. They become more interested in that for right now before the affair even starts. And you can have a pursuer who becomes a distancer. You can have a pursuer who also gets burnt out because they don't feel like they're getting through and they start shutting down emotionally, and then they have their own affairs. So that's where affairs start is that you have a negative cycle. Couples get into, and we've talked about how to get out of negative cycles, we've discussed that. Go listen to that. And so that's where a fair start. Morgan and every relationship has a negative cycle. And that first one, that's the pursuer. Distancer is the most common type of negative cycle. Then there's a negative cycle where couples are basically fighting all the time.

Morgan:

So they're pursuing, pursuing attack. Attack.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, the one who's been distancing feels like they're getting attacked by the pursuer because the pursuer is like, I'm not getting through to you. So they're

Morgan:

Blaming,

Brad:

Criticizing, demanding. It escalates. Then the distancer feels like they're getting their back against the wall, so they'll attack back. But they're primarily a distancer, and so they're just attacking back,

Morgan:

Can't put baby in a corner, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And they may be getting resentful as well. And so that's the second type. Then the third type is really what I would consider a void avoid. And these can be looked at as two different types of situations, but basically what they do is they avoid each other and they can avoid each other. They don't like conflict, they don't like stirring things up. And that can be both of them. So the pursuer, even though they want that connection, they're not really criticizing or blaming because they don't like conflict. So they're stuffing what their feelings are.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

Then the er, they're stuffing what their feelings are and what's going on with them.

Morgan:

And sometimes they think, oh, everything's okay. There's no argument.

Brad:

Well, exactly. They think they're in a strong marriage. And I got to tell you, a lot of people have affairs in this kind of situation

Morgan:

Where one pushing stuffing and they're really not being honest about how they feel.

Brad:

Well, even in the avoid, avoid situation, a lot of people have affairs in that. And then the other type of avoid, avoid affair is an affair where the person who was the original pursuer gets burned out, like I mentioned a moment ago, and they're avoiding, they're distancing, and you have the ER as well. And sometimes the one who was the original pursuer, like I said, they'll get burned out and they'll distance. Then the one who was the original ER will see, oh my gosh, they're pulling away from me. I don't like this much distance between us. Then they can become the pursuer.

Morgan:

So they sort of switch roles.

Brad:

Yeah, they'll switch roles. But basically I'm saying all that to say, well not spend a lot of time on that just to say this. That's where fares start. They start with a negative cycle because a couple does not feel close and people can say they have a good marriage and still have an affair. And I would say for the most part, that's probably hogwash unless there was a sex addiction affair or a flander is affair. And the people who are most likely to say that were probably people who were the avoid, avoid. Well, we never fought,

Morgan:

So we must have had a good relationship, but they weren't close to each other emotionally, they just assumed all relationships were like that. Typically,

Brad:

Yeah, we're good because we don't fight. They may have good communication skills, but they're not really talking about anything

Morgan:

Of significance, of

Brad:

Significance, emotional, their relationship and their feelings. They may be great at communicating about picking up the kids and planning their retirement and things like that, but not what's going on between them as a couple,

Morgan:

That deep emotional intimacy.

Brad:

And so affairs start with the negative cycle. Morgan, this leads into a progression of things that happen. And this doesn't necessarily happen in any chronological order necessarily. These things that I'm discussing, negative cycles create the affairs. Affairs start with a negative cycle, and that leads to the person who's having the affair, who ends up having the affair, feeling like they're burned out, they're tired, they feel beat up by the negative cycle, they end up feeling like they're not good enough for their spouse and because they're tired, because they're burned out, because they're beat up by the negative cycle. They don't ask for their wants and needs.

Morgan:

And I think it's very interesting to point out that you say they're beat up by their negative cycle. A lot of people think well beat up by my spouse, but no, it's beat up by that negative cycle. It's what's happening between you that's wearing you out.

Brad:

What's happening between you that's wearing you out's that negative cycle. And so the spouse will end up not asking for wants and needs. They stop reaching out, they stop communicating. And what happens is resentment develops. Sometimes they're really angry with their spouse, just resentment develops. And that's really important because from there they start feeling alone. They start feeling sad and depressed, they start feeling numb. And what's really happening, Morgan, is they're caring less about their marriage or their relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And so there's these different things that happen because people get beat up by the negative cycle, resentment develops, start feeling alone, start feeling sad and depressed, start feeling numb, and they're starting to care less about maintaining that marriage, maintaining that relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And the other thing that can happen is they're closed off to their spouse emotionally and they may be seeking connection elsewhere. So sometimes people are easy fruit for somebody else to initiate with

Brad:

Them,

Brad:

But at times people could be resentful enough where they're going to go initiate with somebody else.

Morgan:

Wow.

Brad:

And so that happens as well

Morgan:

And they begin to rationalize, is that right? Rationalize this connection with a friend who is just a friend or just a

Brad:

Coworker. And Morgan, what's happening is if Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else, I'm no longer communicating with you

Because this negative cycle is beating me up or I'm not asking for my wants and needs. What happens is closing a door to their spouse and they're opening a door to someone else, and then they're going to share with them. Contact can be made with the affair partner and sometimes they've been friends with the affair partner all along. So when the betrayer gets involved or the involved spouse gets involved in the affair, it's typically somebody they've known for a while. It's generally not somebody they just met. It's not a one night stand type of thing. Typically it can be though, but they have contact with the affair partner. It's somebody that they may have known all along and the affair makes 'em feel good about themselves.

Morgan:

If there's depression, it lifts the depression.

Brad:

If they've been depressed, they've been feeling alone, they haven't felt attractive. If they haven't been having sex with their spouse and they get this attention from somebody else, they begin to feel good about themselves. They like how they feel. And Morgan talked about before in understanding why affairs happened like we've talked about before in finding meaning. The question to ask to understand why this particular affair happened is to ask how were you different? And that's generally how people feel about themselves. How did you feel about yourself? How were you different? How did you feel differently? How were you different as a person

Morgan:

While the affair was happening,

Brad:

While the affair was happening? What did you like about yourself?

Those are all things for people to consider to talk about because that's generally what's going on. And so far we have a fair start with a negative cycle that leads people to feeling burnt out, tired or feel beat up by that negative cycle. They don't feel like they're good enough for their spouse anymore in a sense. They may already feel rejected by their spouse, maybe even abandoned by their spouse. At times, people do feel that way, and that happens more often than you would think. So they no longer ask for once and needs. There's resentment there. They start feeling alone, they're sad, they're depressed, they feel numb, and then they start caring less about the marriage. Those are the things that can happen in any order that get people to start caring less about their marriage or relationship, and they're easy fruit for an affair

Brad:

To

Brad:

Be picked off or to initiate their own, and they have contact with the affair partner who may be somebody they've known all along. It may not be somebody new, and what can happen from there is they develop feelings for the affair partner or they can fall into limerence,

Morgan:

Which

Brad:

Is a romantic love, love addiction, obsessive love infatuation,

Morgan:

But it's not based on a reality.

Brad:

Yeah, that's not based on a reality,

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

It's based on a fantasy,

Morgan:

But

Brad:

Then they can develop feelings for that person and the affair will be going on. It's happening once the affair is discovered. It can make it difficult for some people to end the affair once they've been caught once they've been found out, but that's the general framework of why people have an affair. A lot of clients have discussed this with people who've been involved in an affair, and I would say the overwhelming majority of people who've cheated, have cheated because of what we talked about just a moment ago, feeling burned out or tired, beat up by the negative cycle, and they even feel beat up by the negative cycle of avoid, avoid because they don't think they matter anymore to their spouse. They feel like they're not good enough. They feel like they're not wanted anymore. They have real concerns about it, and so they go through this progression, this stage of feeling like they can't communicate, they can't share. Their spouse isn't there for them. They're no longer dependable. I can't go to them. They're going to be angry with me. They're going to be upset somehow. I don't make them happy.

Morgan:

Somehow I'll fall short or I'll fail or I won't measure up to their expectations,

Brad:

And part of this is so they go through this serious of progression, this psychology of betrayal. They'll go through the psychology of this mindset of someone who cheats. They'll develop, they'll have contact with the affair partner. The affair will start, feelings will develop for the affair partner. The affair will happen and will be happening. Then once the affair is made known,

Morgan:

Because it always will eventually,

Brad:

Yeah, typically it's more often than not, it's made known. Then Morgan, once it's made known for some people, almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? We'll keep talking about this. Thank you for listening today. Yes, have a wonderful week guys. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 13: What Will Make Them Stay, Leave, or Want Me Again? Stuck In Ambiguity, Feeling Confused?

Brad:

I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous and planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This is the podcast for you, and we're on episode number 13, and we're talking about factors that influence ambiguity or ambiguous feelings, and we're going to talk from the perspective or the question of what keeps me feeling so confused. Now, this is an important episode, but I want you to also know that you really need to go and listen to episode 12 that's really talking about should I stay or should I go? So download episode 12, and it's a good idea to listen to episode 12 before you listen to episode 13, which is the one we're about to play.

So do that. Make sure to listen to episode 12 and then come and listen to episode 13. And I want you also to remember that you have free resources waiting for you on the internet at your disposal, at the fingertips, at your fingertips. If you'll just go to healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's Healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's the number 13. Grab those downloads and you can also on that website, healing Broken trust.com. You can leave us a voicemail as well. Just go on there, leave us a voicemail, let us know if these resources are helping you. Let us know what you think about the podcast. Obviously go to iTunes and leave us a review if you love it and tell your friends about it and leave us a voicemail on our website as well. So don't forget to download your free resources, healing broken trust.com/episode 13. Let's get started.

Brad:

Almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? I want to spend a few moments just talking about this, the things that most affect ambiguity, and I would say on this, it's really the factors that influence uncertainty for a spouse to choose to stay in. Factors that affect a spouse who's going to leave. I want to just go over these because they can help save your marriage, help you guys work through this a little bit more on what the spouse who had the affair is thinking and the spouse who was betrayed, what they're considering,

And these are things that I hear by no means is this list exhaustive. I've got 20 different things here. There could easily be 40 things, but I just want to go through this. One of the things that's really important for injured spouses that affects if they want to stay or go is the amount of deception involved by the one who had the affair, the amount of deception that they used to cover their tracks. Were you lying to me face to face? I've kind of felt like something was a little off. Did you lie to your spouse when this was happening? That's going to affect their ability to trust in their ambiguity,

Morgan:

Kind of your blatant lies.

Brad:

Yeah. Do they approach you? I feel like you may be cheating. Is everything okay between

Morgan:

Us? Oh, no. No, not at all.

Brad:

Yeah, not at all. I love you. No, I'm happily married. We're okay. A couple months later, you find out that they have been cheating. That's going to affect your, should we stay or go?

Morgan:

Right? Right. They're going to go back to that moment. Another one would be if it was witnessed by the injured spouse as it actually happened, as it physically happened, if they saw you with them, if they saw it, that could really influence their ambiguous feelings as to whether they should stay or go or if it should even remain intact. So witnessing the event is a big one.

Brad:

And Morgan, that's very important. If you actually physically saw what was happening between the two people, that's going to affect you. And what I'm talking about specifically is sex. If you saw them having sex, that's going to affect, if you want to stay or

Morgan:

Go,

Brad:

How much the injured spouse feels like they're being lied to, how much honesty is they're there. That's really what I'm talking about. Are you being honest with me?

Morgan:

Do I know what honesty looks like on your face?

Brad:

Yeah. How can I read you? How can I trust you? Are you being honest with me right now?

Morgan:

Another one would be what the marriage was like before the affair. Was there a negative cycle that was happening before you even discovered this or before it even led to an affair? Right. Brad? That's a big one. That

Brad:

Is super important. Morgan. Along with that is the uncertainty of the spouse who's been betrayed if it will happen again, or do they know? What kind of reassurance do they have of will it happen again? As long as that is a huge question in their mind, they're going to be uncertain about st staying or going,

Morgan:

Especially if this wasn't the first time they discovered that you had cheated. That's a big deal. The other one, the sincerity, the seventh one, the sincerity and remorse of the involved spouse will determine the level of uncertainty about the future of the injured spouse.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, that's a very good one. Being sincere. How sincere, how remorseful are they? Do they care about me? And that really goes both ways. Sometimes I've worked with people who had an affair, and I want to really make this really an exclamation point with what I'm trying to say here. I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work. So when the person who had the affair saw the one they betrayed, really care for them after their affair was made known, that is what helped them choose to stay in the marriage,

Morgan:

Kind of re-engage.

Brad:

Yeah, and that has

Morgan:

Happened a lot.

Brad:

Yeah, believe it. That has happened a lot. And so yeah, that sincerity and remorse, just knowing you're cared for, that's really what that is saying. I care about you and you have to show your sincerity and remorse. There's no shortcuts with that. More than another thing is, has the one who's been betrayed, the injured spouse, been betrayed before in a previous relationship

Morgan:

That would really put someone on edge, definitely a human lie detector at that point. It's happened to me before. How can I trust that? It's not going to happen with you. And if you're doing that, if you're betraying me, it's not as much of a surprise. I think the next one, the attitudes of family and friends who know about the affair. What are their attitudes? Are they encouraging you to try to work out your relationship or just encouraging you to leave?

Brad:

Yeah. Are they friendly towards your marriage? That can be a key one. Does the injured spouse have children with the betrayer?

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Affects uncertainty because we're getting low on time. I'm going to sort through some of these religious views about divorce and remarriage. That's important. How much has a negative cycle affected the couple's ability to discuss it, the affair, or even feel close? So there's a negative cycle that happens before the affair, and obviously there's a negative cycle that affects a couple's ability to recover

Morgan:

And to discuss the affair.

Brad:

And if the injured spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out. That's also a factor. Another factor is for the injured spouse, is the betrayer getting help if they're a sex addict or a flander, are they getting help for this? Am I seeing some real changes inside of them? If as long as there's a huge question mark around sex addiction or the morality or the values or the lifestyle of the philander, as long as there's not any progression, there's no help, visible help being made or changes being made, people are going to be a little bit more uncertain about staying after they've been betrayed.

Morgan:

Right, right. That makes sense. What about the involved spouse?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, the involved spouse, there's a few things for them as well that affect that level of ambiguity that's in them, that uncertainty about seeing and working it out. Number one, I would say is the quality of the marriage before the affair. That's super important. How do I know that things will be different? And many times they want to leave because they don't know that how deep was their feelings for the affair partner or how deep are they currently for the affair partner?

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

Some people get stuck in that limerence, which we've talked about. How long and how deep was the relationship with the affair partner? How long did this affair go on? How deep did it get? And I would even include with that is how much fighting has gone on since the affair was discovered? That's an important part of choosing to work it out because people can really feel helpless and very

Morgan:

Hopeless, really stuck in that negative cycle too.

Brad:

Other factors that go with this is does the betrayer have kids with their spouse at home? Does the betrayer have their own kids with their spouse who they cheated on?

Brad:

That's

Brad:

Going to make them more likely to want to work it out? Religious views about divorcing remarriage and if the involved spouse feels like they, and here's, and this is also important, Morgan, if the involved spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out.

And Morgan, this is so important for both, is both people need to know that they're cared about, that their spouse does love them, that they really are cared about. That's significant towards working this out towards ambiguity. But those are some factors that influence ambiguity. And we've discussed the psychology of the betrayer, the mindset of someone who's having an affair, the thought process where they're at in the marriage, faires do not happen almost in a bubble. Yeah. Well, most of the time in a healthy marriage, in a good marriage, sometimes people mistakenly think they're in a good marriage because there's not any conflict. We have good communication, but they're not really communicating

Morgan:

About wants and needs.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, they're not really emotionally engaged with each other. They're really good roommates maybe, and people want to know that they're desired and wanted and really cared for. And when that's uncertain, that's when affairs happen. When that's uncertain in a person's mind, they're more likely to cheat.

Morgan:

They begin to care less about the marriage.

Brad:

They begin to care less about maintaining that relationship for emotional

Morgan:

Reasons, and that usually happens over time. Wouldn't you agree or could it be?

Brad:

It can. It depends. Okay. But it varies.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Well, thank you. You've been listening to How to Recover From An Affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. Have a great week guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 15: Am I crazy? What’s wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? What to do in the first 90 days

Brad:

And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you are wanting to save your relationship after infidelity, this is the podcast for you. And we're officially on podcast number 15 where we're talking about trauma. And specifically with this question of am I experiencing trauma? What does it look like? I'll tell you what, it'll be a really good idea to go back to episode one and revisit the seven stages of a fair recovery process that we talk about in episode one to really prepare you for this episode. But one thing you can do and that I recommend doing is also going to healing broken trust.com/episode 15. That's the number 15 to download your free resources. They're really going to help you through this process, really help you to understand where you are. Are you experiencing trauma? What does it look like? How does it play out in real life and every day situations? And so again, that's healing Broken trust.com/episode 15. Download those resources and let's get started.

And we've been talking about the stages of recovery, so do you want to remind the listeners about the stages of a fair

Brad:

Recovery? Yeah, just a quick recap. The stages of a fair recovery, there's the moment of discovery. In that moment of discovery, there's ambiguity, uncertainty. If we want to continue on, there's trauma. That's what we're going to talk about today, meaning trying to understand why this happened, what's going on, and then ultimately forgiveness. And simultaneously what's going on is there needs to be care, caring behavior, compassion that is expressed between both spouses, the betrayer and the injured spouse.

Morgan:

Yeah, and the whole process, it's not linear, correct?

Brad:

No,

Morgan:

It's kind of circular. Sometimes you'll come in the discovery, you'll start right at the discovery process and you might move through it quicker or move to bounce around to the

Brad:

Different, yeah, you kind of move around. So it's not a linear process, but it is a process that people can work through. And the most important ingredient is really carrying and compassion. It needs to be there for both people to be able to recover from this. We had an email. Do you want to go ahead and jump into that?

Morgan:

Sure. Let's talk about the email. We have a question from a listener, and here it is. I learned about my wife's affair with her coworker two months ago. She has since stopped seeing this person and is trying to help me heal, but I still can't seem to stop thinking about her with him. I feel obsessed with knowing what happened. My wife is becoming tired of answering the same questions over and over, and I feel worried that she will leave me just because my obsession with knowing what's happened. I feel like I'm going crazy. Why do I feel this way?

Brad:

Well, I'm glad that person emailed because that's what we're talking about today, that question. Am I crazy? What's wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? That is a very, very important question. And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. And I'm not diagnosing anybody with anything. I'm just saying this is generally what happens. Very large number of people are experiencing obsessive thoughts, rage, nightmares, anxiety, the inability to sleep, all these different things that they're experiencing, and it makes 'em feel nuts. They can't quit thinking about it no matter how hard they try to move on. Can't. Nobody's crazy when they're experiencing these things after a betrayal. Very normal. And both people need to understand this. The betrayer needs to understand this. One of the things that happens in a fair recovery is the spouse who's been betrayed is very obsessed about this, and so they want to talk about it. Talking about it for them helps 'em find relief, helps 'em understand it. It helps them begin to piece the puzzle together and they actually find relief.

And the betrayer feels like, gosh, talking about this is I'm only hurting you more. Why do you want to know about all this, yada, yada, yada? I'm only hurting you. But for the injured spouse, it's actually the only relief they find from it are some of the only relief. One of the things that's real important about this that people need to understand is people who've been betrayed are not crazy. You're not crazy. It's very normal. When I experienced betrayal, I experienced a lot of the same things that we're going to talk about today. In a sense, it's very predictable. Even for a lot of people, an affair is the most devastating experience that they'll have. I had a guy that was in Iraq say he would rather be shot at again in Iraq than to experience his wife cheating on him again. Wow, that's

Morgan:

Strong.

Brad:

But here's the catch with this. And I've had somebody else say, I would rather I've had a woman say that her husband's affair was worse than losing a child. And those are very strong statements that are made and not everybody feels those ways would say the same thing those people said, but this pain ranks up there with the death of a spouse, parent, a child. Some people have even said it's worse. And some of you that are listening to this who've experienced this, know what I'm talking about. The betrayer doesn't understand this. They just want it to be over quickly and it's not over quickly, and there's a lot of work that needs to be done. People can heal from it though I'm not saying you can't, but it just takes time. The first 90 days is the longest period of time, but people can't heal from it.

Morgan:

Yeah, the first 90 days is the most difficult, where the pain is raw and it's just so fresh and so many questions need to be answered. Yeah,

Brad:

It's really the crisis period. And that's usually when the symptoms of PTSD are at their highest.

Morgan:

So we were talking about trauma. How long does it take to recover from trauma?

Brad:

Well, it's dependent upon different factors, but the average couple, if everything goes right, it's about two years. There are some things that hinder people from recovering the way they need. And I just kind of want to go over this real quick.

Morgan:

Let me ask you real quick, by saying two years to recover, do you mean they need to be in counseling for two years or does that mean

Brad:

No, usually to be honest, and this is what couples need to understand is usually couples do really, really well in marriage counseling. It's actually quite rare for couples who come in because of an affair not to do well, usually if they're there, they both want it to work, they want to work through it, they just don't know how. It's extremely confusing. It is a nightmare. It's a rollercoaster. They don't know how they think they're crazy. The person who had the affair, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with me? Why did I do this? So it's kind of a myth that you're doomed. So most people actually do better than other couples that come into marriage counseling, believe it or not. But the trauma aspect of this is what takes a while to heal because it's that fundamental trust, that foundation of the relationship and it's been damaged. And so some of the things that can hinder that make this a longer process, I'll go over this real quick. There are a few primary ideas. The first is they live in a fantasy. They feel the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. The fantasy they had with the affair partner was one that didn't have the baggage of a long-term committed relationship.

Morgan:

That's something you typically term as limerence, correct?

Brad:

Yeah. I'd call that limerence. And limerence is basically a feeling of romantic love. The best way to describe it is you're really addicted to somebody else. You're obsessed with that person. It's really commonly called the first stage of falling in love that people have when they're dating. All you can do is think about them. And so that's when people have an affair. That's sometimes what's happened, and this is where people actually leave their spouse to be with the affair partner. They're experiencing limerence that's really matured and fully grown.

Morgan:

And you typically say that when they leave their spouse for that person, that's when the fantasy kind of bubble is burst

Brad:

Typically? Yeah, yeah. Usually people who leave their spouse to be with that other person, they have the highest divorce rates when they marry their affair partner because the fantasy's over.

So the first thing is the person still feels the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. They don't have the baggage because it's so new. It's so fresh. They're not experiencing the day-to-day responsibilities or the day-to-day realities of a long-term relationship. There's no baggage. The betrayer is free to focus solely on the relationship with the affair partner. A common example of this, it's not just limited to people like this, but you see this especially with people who have young children, especially dads at home. If you got a dad, the mom is staying at home, taking care of the kids. Dad may feel ignored when he's at home. There's noise, there's crying. It feels like he doesn't have any time to himself, but when he is with his affair partner, he feels like he can be himself and not have any of the responsibilities of raising a family. His affair will be an escape from reality, a fantasy he can be engaged in,

Morgan:

Engaged with that person, or maybe it lacked engagement with their spouse.

Brad:

And so when he's with his wife, there's financial struggles. Maybe he feels left out because children are getting more attention and with his affair partner, he feels like he did when he was a younger man free from the responsibilities of raising a family and basically he's living in a fantasy world. This is totally fantasy.

Morgan:

So we're talking about what hinders the trauma recovery process, and you've talked about limerence. What else

Brad:

Hinders that? One of the things that's important to know with this is something that for most couples, I would say nine out of 10 who are dealing with an affair, maybe eight out of 10. It's a very predictable process. This is what you got to do. I wouldn't say it's necessarily paint by the numbers, but you can really see great success. And so it's really just lack of knowledge. If you don't know what you're doing, if you listen to the girls at the getting your at the salon or the guys at the gym or whoever, it's really going to hurt you bad. Even in really listening to people who, and not even people like that, but just people who don't even know what they're talking about

Morgan:

And aren't pro your relationship.

Brad:

You need people who are your marriage who want you guys to make it, want your relationship to make it. You need that kind of help. But one of the things, and this is so important, I want to really highlight this. The greatest predictor in overcoming trauma is having somebody there for you to help you through it. There's no better person to help you through this than the person who's had the affair. Now, the injured spouse will tell you, yeah, I know that's true, but the betrayer, what you need to know as the betrayer is you are the best person to help your spouse heal your love, your care, your attention, your honesty about what's happened is really what your spouse needs to begin to heal. If they feel like they have that from you, you guys are going to be okay. If your spouse feels like you're not being honest, the odds aren't too good.

So they really need to feel like you're on their side, that you're trying to be there for them. One of the things that keeps people from being the healer and that really keeps people stuck in the trauma is while they were having the affair, the betrayer was living in a fantasy. Like we said earlier, they're living in a fantasy world, but what's happened is they're creating an unfair picture of their spouse. So they're with this affair partner, my God, this is amazing on cloud nine, they're in love, they're happy, they're no responsibilities, no realities in the picture yet. And so they're looking at their spouse and they're comparing their fair partner with their spouse and they're thinking, gosh, look at all these negative qualities that my spouse has all this, all that. It's really an unfair comparison. So in my experience, it does take time for involved spouses to let their feelings about the affair partner fade from their mind. But once they do, the faults of the fair partner usually outweigh the faults of the spouse. The longer a betrayer is ambivalent about being the healer his or her spouse needs, the more the injured spouse's insecurities in craziness will only increase craziness. But if the betrayer meets the betrayed spouse with compassion, it will help him or her to regain their composure back again.

Morgan:

And really that's a lot of patience because they will ask the same questions over and over

Brad:

Ist

Morgan:

That correct?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

Usually until they can really process the answer that you're giving and really process the information for themselves until they can start really fully understanding. Is that

Brad:

Correct? Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. The idea with this is is that our greatest predictor in overcoming any trauma is having somebody there. For us, what's so necessary about affair recovery is we need the person who had the affair to turn around and say, I'm going to be here for you. I'm going to try to do whatever it takes. I'm going to be here. I'm going to have compassion. I'm going to be patient. I'm going to answer these questions. I'm going to be honest. When we have that, we're going to be okay. And we are really not recovering from trauma until we have that

Morgan:

Brad. People, they often feel very hopeless and you're giving them a lot of hope. So we're talking about hope and the recovery process and trauma. Tell us what they need to know about the rest of the recovering from trauma.

Brad:

Now, this is the single most important idea I want our listeners to get today is the greatest predictor of success in overcoming any kind of trauma isn't what the trauma is per se. It's not being shot at in Iraq. It's not going over a roadside bomb. It's not experiencing war, it's not being sexually abused. And PTSD basically means a deep personal wound. So that could be sexual abuse, it could be experiencing a riot

Morgan:

In

Brad:

A third world country. It could be anything that's a deep personal wound. The greatest predictor of this though is having somebody there for us that we can call upon for support. Having somebody that we can turn to and in a fair recovery, having the betrayer be there for you, turning towards you saying, yeah, I'm going to do whatever it takes. That's what helps people heal. So it's not really what came before necessarily. Not every affair is equal. There is a lot of pain. If we have that ingredient, we're going to be okay, and that's really the major thing that we need is betrayer to become

Morgan:

The healer,

Brad:

To become the healer, and we can overcome this trauma. That takes time though, even when they're really there though, I don't want people listening to say, gosh, we'd be so much further along if they only just did this or just did that. You want to be really careful as the injured spouse, not to police the betrayer in the sense of being critical, condemning, nagging, blaming. You want to be very careful not to do any of those things

Morgan:

Because you want to encourage them to be the healer.

Brad:

Yeah, you want 'em to encourage to be the healer because what they're thinking is, gosh, this person's such a drag. They're nagging.

Morgan:

Maybe I'm doing more harm than good by talking about this,

Brad:

And so it's kind of a catch 22, and so you want to be really careful. Let them know you appreciate everything that you're receiving, that you're getting, and you're only going to get more when you do that. So you want to be really careful, but you want to help them be educated on everything,

Morgan:

And that's really hard because in the moment of that pain and everything, it's very easy to say, gosh, they don't deserve any praise because they've been so horrible to me.

Brad:

And that's true. People feel like that and they feel like they usually early on in the process, early on in the process, I don't want to give a definite time, but definitely within the first three months, usually that's when they feel that way. The other thing is this is what can hinder people from being the healer, and I see this a lot. In fact, I see this more than the first two that we talked about. Still being caught up in the fantasy element is really the betrayer feels a lot of shame. They feel really stupid about having an affair and just the fact that they feel stupid or shame or guilty about this and there's a certain level of guilt that's healthy, but when it turns into shame, I'm a bad person, I'm stupid. All this stuff keeps you self-consumed about the affair. It keeps you focused on yourself because you

Morgan:

Feel you have to do something to fix yourself first.

Brad:

Yeah, you think of that, but you also feel so bad that and you see your spouse hurting them and in a sense kind of bleeding to death and you're the one who pulled the trigger. It really keeps you from being there for them the way that you need to be.

Morgan:

And I've heard you talk about it. It's like this guilt, shame, depression cycle where you just go into this deep depression sometimes where like you're saying, very self-consumed and absorbed and thinking, gosh, I did this horrible thing. There's no way out, there's no hope. And you just kind of fall into this depression.

Brad:

You fall into this depression and it really keeps you from being there for your spouse,

Morgan:

The healer that you need to be.

Brad:

And usually when people are like this, they don't like expressing their shame, their guilt, they don't like sharing these things, and you really need to express those things to the spouse that you betrayed. You need to open up emotionally. You need to share things with them. You need to let them know that you're really sorry. In fact, one of the things that can really help you be a healer is just tears, just conviction. I'm really sorry about this. I'm sad about this. And just tears can really letting your spouse know how eaten up by this you really

Morgan:

Are. We're talking about the things that hinder the healing process when it comes to trauma. We have one that betrayed their spouse. What keeps them from becoming the healer, Brad?

Brad:

Well, really lack of knowledge about the process. Sometimes there's still feelings for their affair partner and also their own guilt and shame about what they've committed. They really feel devastated by that. The other thing, we only have a few minutes left, so I want to go over something I mentioned last week. We talked about ambiguity. I want to be clear on this. This is something I wanted to discuss. The period of uncertainty. I really discouraged people from separating when they're trying to work out the marriage, people who separate to try to work on the marriage. There has been some research that's shown that there's only a 13% chance of actually reconciling after people do a trial separation, and that's because they get a newfound sense of independence, family and friends, a knowingly encourage divorce, that kind of thing. They say things, I'll just be happy. Whatever makes you happy. There is a time when separation is a good idea and that's when there's the threat of physical violence. I want that to be clear that I'm not totally against the idea of separation. I am in most cases, but I do make an exception for the threat. A physical violence. If your life is in danger or if you're getting beat up and you're finding that this isn't productive, then it's a good idea to work on this from a distance and separate

Morgan:

And it's never productive to be beat up, that's for sure. No,

Brad:

Not at all.

Morgan:

Let me just ask, how do you recognize the symptoms of trauma?

Brad:

Okay. Some of the common feelings, reactions that people have is there's intrusive memories about the affair. Feeling like their mind can't control the onslaught of questions that they're having about the affair. There's flashbacks or what I mean by that is reliving the discovery of the affair and feeling like they did the first time they heard about the affair. There's nightmares about it, trying to avoid thinking or talking about the affair, feeling emotionally numb, avoiding activities that were once enjoyed, hopelessness about the future, having problems with memory, trouble concentrating, difficulty maintaining close relationships, rage, irritability or anger, overwhelming guilt or shame, self-destructive behavior such as drinking too much, maybe even using drugs, trouble sleeping, being easily startled or frightened, hearing or seeing things that aren't there. Experiencing amnesia, forgetting all of the affair or parts of it, feeling like the affair did not really happen, as if it were a dream or covered by fog, feeling like they're outside observers, like they're watching this happen to someone else.

Morgan:

It's shock

Brad:

And of course an anxiety. So those are the symptoms and really it's a deep personal wound that people experience and the major thing to heal from this is, and we're going to get into this, it's finding meaning and it's really just understanding why this happened. Once you feel like you can understand it, then your mind can rest. You no longer need to wrestle with it and have the obsessiveness. And next time we meet, what we're going to talk about is we're going to get into a little bit more in depth on what happens to our mind, how the mind works and how really when we experience deep personal wounds like this and experience symptoms of PTSD, we will experience what is called almost in a sense disassociation, where a mind and memories kind of just separate or shatter into different pieces, and this is why people will have flashbacks, just reminders that pop out of nowhere. It means there's unresolved business. We have unfinished business that needs to be dealt with so we can heal, and then when we are completely healed from this, we will no longer have some of the disassociated features of this

Morgan:

Or the going back and returning and hashing it over, and you can kind of return to reality again and not be so zombie-like be back to the real world again and able to

Brad:

Relate. We're also talk about how you're recovering from the affair. That's good. We're talking about that too. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 22: "If You Cheat On Me I’ll Leave You” And Other Things People Say That Challenge the Conversation

Brad:

You're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse. For them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you want to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. You've made it to episode 22 where we address the O. So important question of how do we talk about the affair. Some say it's not important to talk about the affair, that it's useless and will just make things worse, and others say you must talk about it and you can't heal without talking about it. So we're going to lay the myths to rest and talk about what really needs to happen for you to fully recover. Also, we want to hear from you and get your perspective on things. So if you want to share your thoughts or maybe you have some questions, then go on over to healing broken trust.com. Click on the tab called Weekly Calls and leave a voice message for us there. You can also download the free resources that go along with this episode@healingbrokentrust.com slash episode 22. That's episode and the number 22. And let's get started.

Brad:

This show we're talking about how to recover from an affair, the steps that need to be taken to recover the time. Basically everything that a person needs to know to work through this. We are discussing that in detail, in depth, and so you're not going to really hear this anywhere else. This is one of the big issues that people struggle with. We are here to help you guys work through this. In fact, we had an email that was sent into us that really, I think I've heard a lot from people, and I'm glad somebody sent this in. And it basically is this, Brad, how do I talk to my wife about this? She told me before I had this affair. I never want you to tell me if you've ever cheated on me. I don't want to know that because I've been betrayed by someone else before in a previous marriage.

And really to answer that question for that person, I would say most people before they're betrayed, they do not want to know any details. They would rather just not know because what I don't know is not going to hurt me. But after people know they've been betrayed and they know they've been cheated on, most people want to know in great detail about the affair. And so it's kind of different rules. Usually the person who's been betrayed, sometimes they'll say things like, I will leave you if you ever cheat on me, if you ever sleep with anybody else, I'll leave you. But after an affair, after you're really dealing with it and you're not in hypothetical situations, most people choose to stick around and try to work on it, and most people want to know about it because that's only way they find relief in healing.

In fact, only about 7% of people don't want to know anything about the affair. They don't want to talk about it. If your spouse falls into that 7% of people who don't want to know anything about it, who don't want to talk about it, you can't make them talk about it. You can't tell them anything about it. You just can't give them information. They don't want to know. And so you kind of only go as far as that injured spouse wants to know and the types of questions that they have. Hopefully that answers the listener question. Morgan, we've been talking about the ground rules on how to talk about an affair, and one of the things we said is how you talk about this, it's so much more important than really what is said. It needs to be in a climate of compassion, care, understanding. And so just to kind recap what we said is people need to schedule time to talk about this.

Morgan:

That's right. Yeah. Set aside that time and that journaling will help you to organize your thoughts and feelings so that you can make that time more productive. You talked about open limitations a little bit.

Brad:

Yeah, we talked about that a little bit last time. We're going to really get into that into detail today. The person who had the affair really needs to have a vomit session where they just get everything out and just purge. Just get it all out there, just get it all out there. And then common reaction is that people find this is not an easy process. It's like cough medicine. We talked about that. If people are talking about betrayal, they get angry, they get upset, and it's like cough medicine for both people

Morgan:

Because the medicine goes down and it's not tasty. It doesn't feel good at all.

Brad:

No, but it helps people get better.

Morgan:

The benefit is definitely seen

Brad:

Over time. And so sometimes spouses who've been betrayed, they can be very emotionally abusive, verbally abusive. And that's why we were talking about journaling as well, is just channel those emotions onto paper. And that way you're not lashing out of your spouse because they feel quite

Morgan:

Abused,

Brad:

Abused, also demotivated,

That kind of thing. The injured spouse is attacking during the discussions. You're only hurting the person who needs to be there as a healer for you. They're not going to be motivated to be there. And basically the last thing we left off with is it's important that spouse is not interrupt during the conversation. Discussing affair can get heated very quickly, and really you should try to do everything in your power not to let this happen. If you can learn just to sit and listen, not interrupt, write down questions, write down comments that you have in your journal, you're going to hear things that you may not hear. If you interrupt, you're going to hear things that you wouldn't hear if you interrupt them. And so that's what we left off is don't interrupt each other. Let the betrayer finish their thoughts, finish their sentences. If you feel like you're catching them in a lie or a white lie, really try to not interrupt them because you're not going to get all the information you need if you sit there and you pounce on them if you think you're making a mistake. And so that's kind of where we left off, Morgan. What are the other ground rules?

Morgan:

The next one really is it's important to discuss the affair in a way that gives your spouse reassurance that you're reassuring them that the affair will not happen again. And that's the most important thing. They need to know why, of course, but they also need to know this isn't going to happen again. It's not a pattern of betrayal and maybe it has in the past, but it won't go any further. So don't avoid or deny the affair or minimize the damage or fall into denial because it will only create more distrust. And that's the biggest thing is you want to create trust. And that's going to take a lot of time. If you as a betrayer find yourself becoming defensive, say to your spouse, Hey, I know I've hurt you. I want to make this better and I'm committed to the process, but I'm feeling attacked and I think we need to take a minute and breathe.

Brad:

Yeah, and Morgan, I'm glad you said that because it's so important in this process, the betrayer needs to be able to come to the injured spouse and just share everything and get it out there. And they need to get it all out

Morgan:

There and trust the process.

Brad:

They need to trust the process. But I like what you're saying. The betrayer needs to be proactive in this. They need to be the ones initiating conversations at times. They need to be proactive. They need to be

Morgan:

Open and honest. You need to take responsibility for the actions that they took, but also help your spouse by realizing that they're hurting and stop them from spiraling downward in uncontrollable anger by going to them and being open.

Brad:

And Morgan, what I like about what you just said is you're showing that important idea of I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

Most betrayers, they want to suppress information, but if you go to them and you initiate conversations about this, you go and you're willing to talk about it. You just tell them information about it. That helps the injured spouse, since they don't have to protect themselves as much, they sense you are here to help me heal. You are here to help me. I don't need to be in a self-protective mode. I don't need to keep my walls up. And so what you're saying is really important. One of the things that's really important almost as a word of caution is if you do not talk about this, if you don't discuss the affair, this is really the best way for people to recover from this is to talk about this, to deal with it upfront, to really just almost hug a cactus in a way. You just have to really deal with it. And if people are unwilling to discuss this, it results in a much slower recovery time increases the chances of divorce,

And it creates more distress. Like I said last week, the more that the injured spouse knows, the more they feel like they're healing. You do not want to fall into the trap as the betrayer of suppressing information. You feel like you're suppressing this because of your guilt. You don't want to make your spouse feel worse, but that suppressing of the information is actually causing them to feel worse, and it's going to keep you stuck in guilt longer. And suppressing information is going to keep you stuck in the fantasy of the affair, the secret of the affair, and those secrets in that fantasy. It's going to keep you from becoming emotionally invested back into the marriage and relationship the way you need to be.

And so the more you share, the more you're deconstructing that fantasy of what the affair was, and it's bringing you more into reality. You are entering the real world, you're entering into reality again, and it's helping you lose those feelings for the affair partner. And it's helping you reconnect. In fact, what it's doing is it is helping you reconnect with your spouse, but it's bringing a new level of intimacy that hasn't been there because there's a new level of honesty. You're being more open about your feelings, you're being more open about what you need from your spouse. And so that's why this step of talking about the affairs is so important.

Morgan:

Yeah, absolutely. But also the next point that we wanted to make was betrayers will need to revisit many different aspects of the affair multiple times. We've talked about that on the show quite a few times. Those obsessive or intrusive thoughts that you keep asking the same questions because you find and learn new things each time you ask the question. But discussing how they met with the affair partner once will not accomplish. It's usually more than once, typically that they'll ask the same questions, but each time it's discussed, you'll learn something new and that'll in turn help you to recover. For many couples, it does get annoying that they have to revisit the topic again and again, but involve spouses. The betrayer must maintain their composure. You must maintain your composure and let your spouse know that you're there to help them to heal and to recover. It's a huge, it's going to make a huge difference.

Brad:

And Morgan, one of the things that you said that's real important is you're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse, for them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this. The injured spouse, it needs to be talked about. It's wrong for professional to tell somebody, look, it's been six months, it's been a year, it's been five years. Never bring it up again. That's just absurd. And it really shows a lack of understanding of the trauma recovery process for somebody from this type of particular trauma.

Morgan:

And the time that's passed, I mean, it could be two years, three years, 20 years, but pain is still there.

Brad:

Oh, yeah. Time doesn't heal

Morgan:

Anything. It's discussing it. It's talking about, it's working through it. I mean, some healing may occur, but the full healing,

Brad:

No, not the full healing. So people need to talk about it multiple times. There's different reasons why people need to talk about this multiple times or the same question multiple times. I would say the first reason is there's shattered assumptions that the injured spouse has about the betrayer. I no longer feel like I know who you are, so they're trying to reconstruct who this person is. Part of it is I just can't believe this. This has blown my mind. It's shocking. It's shocking. So just, I can't believe they said this. They did this. You're trying to reconstruct it. Another thing is it's like watching a movie like Inception. I love that movie,

But there's different layers to that plot. But every time you watch a movie like that where you talk about an affair, you're uncovering different layers of it. You're seeing something that you haven't seen before. And the more that the injured spouse can talk about this process, it, it's actually bringing healing to them. It's helping them become more complete. And you as a spouse who's had the affair, that's part of you being a healer, is really being patient with that, showing that you're willing to do whatever it takes. And it's going to take sometimes some questions literally hundreds of times to get answered. And that is frustrating, but that's part of for the maximum healing process to take place. It's going to be several times of just asking the same questions.

Morgan:

And there's one thing that you did mention earlier in one of the points that you made about the vomit session, making sure that you get it out there, get it all out. But one thing that I think ties into this that we need to probably remind people is if you don't vomit it out and new information gets in there, wedged in there where you haven't told everything, it's almost like starting over, like you've said before in the discovery process. It's a shock. So each time you discover a new layer or a new piece of information, it's like, oh my gosh. It's like going right back to the beginning of the hurt of the pain. It's pulled up, the scab has been ripped off. So it's important to get all of that information out there, but then you're still going to have those same questions over and over. But I mean, your story is the same because it's the truth. It just needs to be understood and rethought through again, probably.

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah. Morgan, you brought up another good point too, is really with the point that you made about

Morgan:

Having a vomit session, making sure

Brad:

That it's out there because when you bring it up like this and you have a vomit session or a purge session, you just get it all out and information is discovered later. That person, sometimes they feel like, gosh, I'm just starting over, or they feel like even, what else do I not know? Yeah, what else do I not know? And it keeps them hypervigilant on the defensive or wall is up.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So that's more of the reason for you just to get everything out at once, as much as you can get it all out there. And that way they feel safer. And sometimes couples do struggle with that where, gosh, we're in this for three months or even a year and I find out something new, or even I've had some couples, five or six years later, they find out something new and it just kind of sets some, brings 'em back down on the ladder. And that's the importance of getting it all out there. And here's the thing too, I want to say about honesty is when you're honest about this, people stick around when they feel like you're being the healer and you're being honest. People do not stick around when they feel like you're being lied to. So if you're worried about, gosh, if my spouse really knows this or if they know that they're going to leave me, chances are they're probably going to stay. As long as they feel like you're being honest with them and you're transparent with them and you're really trying to rebuild things, they leave when they feel like, I'm not getting anywhere, you're not helping me.

Morgan:

And think about how light of a load you'll carry with being able to tell them everything and then getting through it and healing. I mean on your part as the betrayer as well, your conscience will thank you

Brad:

And you're going to have a lot less guilt, that kind of thing. Absolutely. There's some areas that you want to stay away from. We really advise couples to stay away from anything that makes you more obsessive. Sometimes people ask, what do I share? What kind of questions? What do I share? Do I share that I slept with this person? Do I share that on our anniversary, we did this or I did that with the affair partner?

Morgan:

How much information is too much information?

Brad:

Yeah. Well, and here's the thing, there's kind of a protocol for this. There is some things that I would strongly encourage people not to talk about that, but most of the time, whatever the injured spouse feels like they need to know. I'm okay with that. Like I said earlier, only about 7% of injured spouses have no desire for any sort of details. Two thirds want to know great details. And so the three areas are graphic, sexual details, love letters, and anything that makes the injured spouse more obsessive about the past.

Morgan:

And you want to avoid those, right? Yeah,

Brad:

You want to avoid those. And generally the obsessiveness comes from graphic sexual details and love letters

And graphic sexual details are really hard for men, especially because they'll picture their wife with another man, very visual doing certain things, and men are very visual. So it's much to overcome. And I found that people get stuck in thinking about this. Men will get stuck or even women get stuck in thinking about the sexual part because they don't have all the information. And what happens is their mind is just kind of going through all the information they know. And part of that is the sexual details because they're trying to understand what happened, why it happened. And so they're just going through all this information. And part of that's the sexual details. One of the best ways I know how for people to overcome the sexual details is really to understand the whole affair and to get all their questions answered. Because once they have everything answered, they have stopped obsessing of the unknown of the unknown, and it's just obsessing period. And that causes them to get stuck on the graphic sexual details. The other area you do not want to know is love letters. That generally is harder for women. And let me say this though, it's not just hard on women, it's hard on men too, but it's very hard to see that your spouse may be bashing you

In a letter, but praising somebody else, talking positively, someone else, giving them a nickname that you do not have, they may have a different type of relationship than you've had with your spouse. I had a guy that came in a little over a year ago. His wife had an affair last summer, and when they came in, they came in about April or March, and this was really interesting. No healing had virtually taken place because hers was an online affair with somebody in a different state, but he had all this information online and every day he looked over it, just poured over it, read everything, revisited everything. So the guy was very depressed, very obsessed, still not a lot of things made sense. And so there was no healing that took place.

Morgan:

You kind of kept him right there.

Brad:

Yeah, it kept him in the beginning of the process and nine months afterwards, he should have been in a very comfortable place, not perfect, but in a place where I definitely feel like I'm moving forward. I have hope. I know we're working through this. I've worked through a lot of the major part of this. We should have already been there. It's been nine months at ground

Morgan:

Zero,

Brad:

Nine months at a really, really bad place. You want to avoid graphic sexual details. You want to avoid love letters, text messages, emails. Unfortunately, that's how so many people find out about an affair nowadays. It's an online affair where they got kind of these text messages and smartphones and things in Facebook. That's how people find out. But you really want to try to avoid kind of bearing yourself in that and revisiting it because it's only going to keep you held hostage.

Morgan:

So one thing we have here to avoid the scenario, we recommend writing these questions down, sleep on them. Ask yourself, is this information, is it really necessary for my healing? Sometimes just writing it down will help you kind of get through those feelings, but sleep on it.

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb. Just give yourself some time when you get the question you want it answered right away, but give yourself some time

Morgan:

Because

Brad:

With these types of questions, they tend to be re-traumatizing. They tend to open the wound back up. They tend to pour salt on that wound and it doesn't heal. So give yourself some time. You don't need to really jump ahead into this. And I would, to be honest with you, I really encourage you not to ask questions about sexual, obviously, did you make love? Did you have sex? That kind of thing.

Morgan:

Will I need to worry

Brad:

About STDs? STDs, were they on birth control? That's fine. But things like sexual positions, lingerie you really need to avoid. And there's some more graphic questions that you could ask that I don't want to say, but you really want to avoid that because it just keeps you stuck.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

It retraumatizes you.

Morgan:

So Brad, we are going to out of time here very soon, but would you like to talk about the open limitations?

Brad:

Let say, let me just summarize the last two steps here. When discussing an affair, it's important to do what we call open limitations. Where as time goes on, you're probably talking about the affair for hours on length, especially in the early weeks. You're talking about the affair constantly. But as time goes on, that idea of open limitations is at any moment the injured spouse is able to bring up a question and it's discussed for no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. And part of that is because the longer you go on, the more that's shared, the more that's told can cause people to get angry

Morgan:

Escalation.

Brad:

And if it's not done, you get into that negative cycle of blame, withdraw, one person's blame and the other one's withdrawing. But if you do that, that tends to be the best way to do this. It's just discuss it for no more than 15 to 30 minutes and it helps people really begin to recover and you're just kind of doing it throughout your

Morgan:

Day. And if you do the journal method, like what we had talked about in the last show, if you write it down and you really think through, okay, what do I need to know? What questions do I have? You're going to make those conversations within 15 to 30 minutes. You're going to make them more productive. You're going to get somewhere instead of falling into just a big argument.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Just limit yourself to 15 to 30 minutes per question or part time that you discuss this, and you can talk about it really at any time. Obviously not when the kids are around, but really at any time. So the injured spouse has the freedom to ask this really at any time they feel the need to, but you're not discussing it at length. You're able to kind of resume your normal life together

Morgan:

And 30 minutes wraps up and then you're able to go and cool down and really

Brad:

Breathe. And then kind of the next thing is because the betrayer many times feels like this is hopeless, I can't help this person heal. I can't be forgiven. And I notice people when they've dealt with the affair for a long periods of time, like a year or more, they start feeling like, gosh, nothing I can do is going to have any effect on this person. And so this is where that care and compassion comes in. Is what you are doing really helps me,

Us talking about this? You don't understand how much this helps me. I appreciate this. I notice what you're doing. I notice what you're contributing, praising them for what you're getting because it's only going to help them give you more. And so that's important, and that is many times the injured spouse feels like I don't owe them anything, have a huge wall up. That is true and that needs to be worked on, but I can understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying that's necessarily true that you shouldn't try to help them, but if you give them appreciation, give them positive feedback. I notice what you're doing. These small things matter. These things that you're doing matter, they're going to have more motivation and sometimes they're just completely demoralized

Morgan:

And ultimately you will get the healing that you need as the betrayed spouse. So it's a win-win situation. One person feels like they can be open and honest and sharing, and then you also get the healing that you need, the answers that you need.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 26: Why Do They Lie?

Ep 27: Are Some Wounds Too Big To Heal From?

Ep 29: Childhood of the Betrayer

Transcript

Brad:

They get these message that they have to be self-reliant, it's either outright told to them or it's implied that they got to be self-reliant and they also get messages that are either told to him or hinted at that they can't ask for needs to be met. They got to bottle things up, it's almost like sometimes they got to take care of their parent instead of being able to just be open and honest about how they feel.

Morgan:

Have you been wondering how to break free from the affair once and for all? Now's the time to take back your life, your emotions, find happiness, joy, and fulfillment with your marriage. Healingbrokentrust.com is the place where you can find resources to take the healing journey to the next level. You'll find incredible resources for every stage of your affair recovery journey. Connect with our team of qualified affair recovery therapist who stay current with the ever growing, ever changing affair recovery research that's available to help you heal wherever you are in the process. Take our home study course focused on helping you communicate and express yourself in a way that gets you what you want. You can also book an incredible one on one intensive retreat where instead of dragging out the pain over months or years you can condense the time it takes to heal in just a matter of days using scientifically proven methods that work to help couples lower their guard, let go of the fear, melt the anger, and experience each other at a deep, emotional level you may have never experienced before. So what are you waiting for? Go to healingbrokentrust.com. So go to healingbrokentrust.com and we'll talk to you soon.

Morgan:

Wherever you are welcome to Healing Broken Trust podcast, we're joining you from our lovely home in the suburbs of Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's a Saturday afternoon during nap time and so it's just you and us for the next half hour or so. We have an interesting topic that we're about today, right Brad?

Brad:

Yeah, this is a really fascinating subject. We're talking about what does the childhood look like, the typical childhood look like of your average person who's unfaithful. So I think this is really fascinating. Of course, I'm a therapist so I'm fascinated by things like this, but I think our listeners will be fascinated by this too.

Morgan:

Yeah, I think so too. So...

Brad:

Because sometimes people get stuck on the why, they don't understand why they did it, and none of this is excuse making, but if you want to understand the psychology of the one who's unfaithful, the psychology of the betrayer this is often a good place to start.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

But it doesn't explain everything so here's what you cannot do, you cannot say you had a crappy childhood, that's why you cheated on me. Because the one who had the affair often doesn't' feel that way. These are things that may influence them, have affected them, but they often won't say it's because of blah, blah, blah from my past is why I cheated on you. They're going to be unhappy about their relationship. But as we'll talk about this we'll see how this influenced them, whereas someone else who was unhappy, or equally unhappy who didn't experience some of these things didn't make the same choices.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

So this is the thing that kind of influences us in some ways subconsciously it impacts us. So this isn't excuse making justifications, anything like that, but it is a way to understand where did they come from, what kind of past did they have, what's the average past look like? And I'm in a unique situation where I get meet people every day who've experienced infidelity, who've betrayed their spouse, so I'm one of the few people on the planet who kind of knows what kind of past they have, what kind of background they have. And so...

Morgan:

Yeah, you've seen so much.

Brad:

Yeah, and it's a lot of fun because you're past isn't your destiny, but if we don't really work on it, and heal wounds we may end up hurting other people.

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

So that's kind of what we're talking about.

Morgan:

That's really interesting. So speaking of one of the things that you had actually brought up, why do some people cheat or why are some people unfaithful and others are not when they have similar pasts that are bad?

Brad:

Yeah, I think part of that really depends on the type of emotional or relational resiliency they develop. A lot of folks will, at least, I don't know if this is accurate, but I think a lot of people have a very unhappy childhood, but they don't always make terrible life choices. Some people have a good childhood and they make terrible life choices, so it's not always predictive. But what really helps people is the amount of emotional support they had. It doesn't matter that you went through terrible things as a child, you immigrated from a different country, you're a refugee, or you were a victim of violence as a child, or a parent died as a child. Those things don't have to predict later behavior but oftentimes they can. But the real factor is did you have somebody there for you emotionally. So those things aren't always causes

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

To being unfaithful. What the real factor is is did they have emotional support, did they have people that they could learn on emotionally, did they have warm parents, did they have both parents who were warm. It's not just enough to really have one not with the way parenting works. You need to have both warm parents, and both parents be involved, and both parents be attentive. You may have been able to get away with dad being out of the home a lot 50 years ago because you had grandparents who were more involved throughout the whole upbringing of the children. Today parents are usually relying on themselves, you don't always have close family units. So...

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

So anyway, the big thing is really resiliency. If you've got emotional support and you've got people there for you in tough times as a child you're going to probably do better...

Morgan:

Do better.

Brad:

Relationally, because here's the thing Morgan, you can even have siblings in the same family. Just as an example, the dad is abusive, or they experienced really deep, traumatizing things, but say the mom comforts the younger sibling because the child's the baby, mom gives it maybe more attention and consideration, and the baby could be like 10 years old and then the other child's like 13. A 13 year old maybe looks a little bit more independent and the child's going through the same stressful as the 10 year old's going through, but they're getting more attention, more warmth, they're learning that they're still valuable, that they're still loved. The 13 year old who wants to be independent on their own they're still going through hell because they're not getting the same...

Morgan:

Message.

Brad:

Message, and so they're not developing that same sense of resiliency. I would say that's really the hidden things that's there.

Morgan:

Okay. So can you paint a picture of the childhood of a typically betrayer or someone who...

Brad:

Is unfaithful.

Morgan:

Is unfaithful, yes. What does it look like?

Brad:

Well I would say the typical childhood boils down to really one thing, or maybe a couple things. The theme is a childhood with cold, emotionally detached parents, inattentive parents, parents who are not just inattentive, but maybe even rejecting, their distant themselves, they're preoccupied with their own issues and problems. They love their kids just as much as I love our son, I'd give anything in the world for our son. They would give anything in the world for their children but they don't really know how to connect emotionally themselves. So you can't give a child something that you don't have yourself. Sometimes there's just this void, lack of emotional connection, this distance. So what this creates, and this is really the important thing, is it creates somebody who is out of touch with their own emotions and feelings, and they feel uncomfortable feeling vulnerable, they feel weak being vulnerable, and so they don't ever want to share that part of themselves with anybody, and they don't share it with their spouse because they don't want to share it with anybody.

Brad:

They love their spouse more than anything and they really cherish their spouse, and I think this is true for almost everybody who cheats. I think there's very few people who really don't care for their spouse at all. I think I would bet money that almost everybody who has an affair really, genuinely cares about their spouse. But here's the thing I want to get to is is they feel uncomfortable being vulnerable, and expressing emotions, and vulnerability, and needs. So when they get unhappy in a relationship they don't go to their spouse and say, "I'm really unhappy, this is really unfair," because they hate conflict. So what they do, and this is all stuff they learned in childhood, so what they do is they just bury it, they keep it to themselves. What ends up happening is is they resent the heck out of their spouse and that's the justification for being unfaithful later.

Morgan:

And something I...

Brad:

They never speak up though, they never say, "Hey, this bother me."

Morgan:

Now their parents would be maybe cold, or distant, or inattentive but I imagine since their parents really do love them that can't be 100% of the time that they're inattentive or distant, it might be inattentiveness or distance surrounding certain things in life or moments in life when they need their mom or dad, but their parent wasn't able to respond and maybe ... I'd like to ask you, is that true, would that be something that you could say that maybe their parent wasn't 100% terrible or distant all the time, maybe their parent just wasn't able to respond when they needed something, or in a moment of crisis, or does it need to be all the time?

Brad:

I think that's great question. I think the biggest wounds people development are wounds of abandonment and betrayal by close loved ones. If I get betrayed by somebody that I'm not emotionally close to that hurts and I might hold resentment towards them. But if you get betrayed by somebody who's your emotional world that will keep you up at night, that will make you obsessed. It won't just put a chip on your shoulder, if it's a colleague who hurts you. That will bother you and it may even bother you for a while. But if it's your own safe haven, the person that's supposed to be there for you, if they betray you, and honestly, if you've never had anybody there before, a parent, a grandparent, mom, dad, any siblings, if you never had anybody there for you emotionally and then you get betrayed it's a lot harder thing to ever trust another person with again.

Brad:

So here's the thought process, and I want to answer your question. And help me make sure I'm answering it, but this is something I jotted down. This is how the person who has an affair thinks, and this is typical because usually the one who has an affair is the one in the relationship who's more the avoider, or the one who shares the least emotionally, they're the one who tends to be more independent, they're the fixer in the relationship. Women can fit that mold. You see a lot of guys with that. Usually a pursuer in the relationship will have an affair when they've been trying for a long time and they feel like they're not getting through to their spouse, and they'll have an affair when they start giving up on the relationship. Their affair is sometimes more about wanting to be attractive, and pretty, and somebody's interested in me.

Brad:

Sometimes it's more about that, and an avoider will have an affair for different reasons, they just don't really trust anybody, and they may not say that. An avoider can be somebody who's really happy, cheerful, outgoing, but what they're avoiding is their emotions because they're uncomfortable, it's a foreign territory for them, they don't know how to navigate it. So an avoider would say, "I am somewhat uncomfortable being close to others. I find it difficult to trust them completely. It's difficult to allow myself to depend on them. I am nervous when anyone gets too close, and often, others want me to be more intimate than I feel comfortable being." So I'll read that again. An avoider would say, "I am somewhat uncomfortable being close to others. I find it difficult to trust them completely. It's difficult to allow myself to depend on them. I am nervous when anyone gets too close, and often, others want me to be more intimate than I feel comfortable being." So I don't really trust you, but at the same time I'm nervous about you getting too close to me. So they're kind of an island, they really thrive on feeling independent, and not needing other people too much, but they do need other people.

Brad:

So what they do is they kind of start turning off emotions, and feelings, and withdrawing, and they shut down with there's an argument, they get quiet, they hold back, and they don't like conflict at all, and so they'll hold back these things. So what happens is over time they build a lot of resentment. Really what they're scared of is giving themselves completely over to the person and fully trusting another person, so they sometimes can have a really low commitment to a relationship. But the irony is is they're not really giving anything extra or special in the affair than what they've already given in their marriage. So even though sometimes spouses read text messages, or love letters, or whatever, they're read this and they're like, "Oh my gosh, he's given this woman all these things that he's never given me." Or he hasn't given that to me in a while. I would venture to say he's not giving her anything, he's not giving anything that he's never given before. He doesn't know how to be truly vulnerable and truly let someone in because of some of these things that we need to get into.

Morgan:

So he's not necessarily giving more to that relationship than he's given to yours because he doesn't know.

Brad:

Yep. Now he may be giving more...

Morgan:

Verbally.

Brad:

Well in this time period.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Like he's having an affair...

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Obviously he's giving more that relationship than the marriage.

Morgan:

Right because he's invested in that more than he's invested in the marriage, and so he might be having sex or something with his other person but he doesn't necessarily let them into his vulnerable dark places.

Brad:

No, no, no and it may feel that way because there's love letters, flowers, pictures, sexting, different things like that. But no, they're not giving anything emotionally of themselves more. They don't suddenly become a different person and now I'm going to be vulnerable with you. Typically that's not what happens.

Brad:

So what does the typical childhood look like of someone who has an affair? What you typically see Morgan is you see parents who are consistently cool, who are consistently inattentive...

Morgan:

Oh so there's consistency to the parents behavior. So it has to be something projected over time.

Brad:

I think it could be both. Like back to your question is it big events that do it, or I think it's a pattern, a behavior that's modeled that they see. But at the same time, if the event is big enough they can lose their trust and just decide I need to learn to lean on myself.

Morgan:

Especially if the event doesn't ever find resolve. If they don't find resolve after that, or healing, or they don't fix the relationship after the big event.

Brad:

Yeah, you got to mend it. You've got to be able to restore, you've got to work through it. I would say the thing that's probably the biggest is there's events but what really does it is I think sometimes it's a combination of both to be honest with you.

Morgan:

Consistency?

Brad:

Yeah, consistency, inattentive, consistency cool, consistently rejecting, even sometimes just being angry, having a parent who is angry with you snapping at you. You learn not to open up. You learn not to open up when they're rejecting, when they're inattentive, when they're just whatever, cool. So what happens is you see this pattern of behavior from the parent's side of just being detached and not really caring about their child emotionally. But you often see because of that these events that happen where they may be the ones hurting the child in abusive ways, or exposing them to risk and harm. So it's more this parenting style that produces these other things, that create...

Morgan:

This illusive cool person who's maybe detached emotionally that then turns into someone who betrays their partner because they don't know how to connect emotionally.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Here's the other thing, I kind of go into a child having this, it later becomes like a potential future cheater. One of them is from the parent they will send messages to the child that they will be punished If they try to seek closeness from the child. So when of the things that can happen is Morgan and I ... I think we might have talked about this on a podcast, but this just ... And I hear about stuff all the time in my office, but this is one I saw firsthand. Our son, we had to take him to the doctor and while we were in the waiting room there was a little five year old girl, big waiting room, the parents were on different sides of the waiting room, little five year old girl looking at fish I the fish tank, and I didn't see it happen but she fell on the ground, tripped and fell. She's of course crying and both of her parents were immediately like...

Morgan:

They didn't do anything.

Brad:

Well they didn't do anything, number one, but do you remember they...

Morgan:

I do.

Brad:

Both of them were saying like, I think it was more the dad, the mom kind of agreed with the dad, unless your arm is cut off...

Morgan:

Or you're bleeding to death.

Brad:

Yeah, unless your arm's cut off or you're bleeding to death quit your crying.

Morgan:

Yeah, don't cry.

Brad:

What that signals to the child is ... But here's the thing, nobody thinks back to that and says, "You know when I was five I couldn't be open." But what they learn is subconsciously, over time, they develop a mental model that becomes their blueprint for future relationships that they can't go to somebody for support. So...

Morgan:

Yeah, they can't go to their parent, that attachment figure.

Brad:

Yeah, they can't go to their parent, I'm going to get punished. So what happens when they enter into a relationship is I can't go to my girlfriend or my boyfriend I'll get punished for it. So what they do is they...

Morgan:

They hide.

Brad:

They hold it in and then they resent their spouse, or their girlfriend, or boyfriend because they're not sharing what they're really feeling and needing, and they magically assume you should know, and they're resenting the crap out of them. Then they are really unhappy in the relationship because they don't ever give themselves to someone completely they kind of get into these affairs, they can either flirt with someone else or they're really susceptible to someone flirting with them. Or when the opportunity arises, because of travel or other things, they're kind of susceptible to it. Nobody's ever going to say when they cheated it was because of this in the doctor's office when I was five.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

The girl's not going to remember that because there's going to be a crap load of other examples that she'll have. But what it is it's the pattern that develops...

Morgan:

That consistent message.

Brad:

That consistent message, and what develops is this mental model this is how relationships work. At that young of an age when that model gets developed you have no idea if this is healthy, or unhealthy, or not, you just know this is how relationships work because that's what you see in your family. You're five years old, you may just be getting to start kindergarten, you may not even be in kindergarten yet. There's a whole lot of crap that's happened yet and you're not even able to logically say this is dysfunctional. You can't even say that. But what's crazy about that is the parents who are 20-25 years older than their daughter are sending those kind of messages to her. I think, and I know, they love their child just as much as we love our son, but that child doesn't get that impression.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

They don't feel lovable, and they can't show that vulnerability because there's a new model that gets developed so what they do is they turn off emotions because they feel weak and inadequate and what they're really getting away from when they withdraw, and shut down, and are quiet, and aren't vulnerable, is they're really getting away from those feelings of feeling inadequate, that's what's really going on. It's not about always getting away from their spouse. Sometimes they don't want to create conflict, but they're really trying to get away from "I feel inadequate and I don't want to express that kind of vulnerability because I'll weak, and if you think I'm weak and not strong you won't like me very much."

Morgan:

Yeah...

Brad:

And so that's...

Morgan:

I'm not going be ... Those feeling of...

Brad:

I'm not going to be good enough.

Morgan:

Yeah, and those feelings of weakness are going to be validated, those feelings of inadequacy are basically validated by the partner. So they don't want to go there.

Brad:

Well yeah and they value peace because they feel closest to their partner or spouse when there's not conflict. Obviously you have to deal with crap in a marriage to really have a good marriage, you can't just brush stuff under the rug, you got to be open and honest.

Morgan:

And that's also why it's important that if your partner does come to you with something that's vulnerable, or that gives you a glimpse of what's really happening inside their mind, in their heart, to not swipe at them and get upset with them because it validates that fear of they're not going to accept me, I'm not going to be okay. So I think being able to look out for those things as they come, if they are vulnerable with you, to be able to see it as it comes your way, I think is really valuable, and I think that's just a tremendous thing. I know you teach people how to do that in the retreats and stuff like that.

Brad:

Yeah, because this is not set in stone. You really need therapy help because this could change, and hopefully listening to this is helpful. But this isn't set in stone, people can change out of this.

Morgan:

Right, yeah, so that's a good question that you're leading into I think. If they've had this childhood, and they've responded the way they have, and it's led them down the path of infidelity, getting to this once a cheater always a cheater, is that really possible? Can they get out of that? Can they change? Can they be different? If they identify these patterns in their life can they change? Can they become no longer someone down that path I guess?

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good question. I think they can change, I think the best way to change though is couple's therapy. You have to have that because you have to feel like you can let them into your secrets, into your vulnerability, into the deepest, and darkest, scariest place emotionally. You have to be able to let them in and you have to feel like you can trust them for you not to cheat on them.

Morgan:

You know what I think is so interesting, some of these...

Brad:

Let me finish this thought here...

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Because if you don't do that you're always going to be prone to having another affair. Now your spouse, if you cheat on them, you may eventually earn their trust, work your butt off, you do all these things, they finally trust you. But for you to never stray again you have got to know that you can trust them emotionally and lean on them emotionally, and you got to feel like there's nothing holding you back. You've got to feel like yes, I can give myself completely do you, there's nothing holding me back, and you've got to feel like you can share anything with them. If you feel like there's things that you cannot share people are going to get in trouble there.

Morgan:

Because then you're starting to keep those secrets. Those secrets kind of start seeping again and then that vulnerability or that resentment can seep in again.

Brad:

I want to finish this and then I'll fly it on to the parenting that they've experienced. So the first one is parents are consistently inattentive, consistently cool, rejecting or angry in their responses to the young children. Children are met with threats of punishment for trying to get close to their parents, like that little girl in the doctor's waiting room.

Morgan:

Or they say, "Grow up. You need to stop crying." But crying for a little kid is their language, they don't have English skills, they don't know how to speak...

Brad:

Well and Morgan...

Morgan:

Like an adult.

Brad:

You bring up a good point. You bring up a good point. When earlier when we were talking about resiliency, you develop resiliency because you feel like you got somebody who has your back. The people who are probably the weakest with the least amount of resiliency are the people who have this relationship style that we're talking about because they don't ever know how to trust anybody else or fall back on someone else. People like this can be maybe great soldiers, go to Antarctica, be the sole man who goes to Mars on a one person mission to Mars because they've turned off their relationship needs and ability to...

Morgan:

That part of their brain.

Brad:

Yeah, they turn that off. But when their spouse dies, or when somebody dies, or when they're really in a crisis they break down, they suffer the worst, they never really truly recover. And the real issue is they don't let anybody in. They think the real issue is I'm just depressed, or work sucks, or this, or this, or that...

Morgan:

Which could be true, but the real issue is...

Brad:

Yeah, those things are important. But the real issue is they don't know how to really let anybody in, their defenses, they turn off their emotions. So Morgan the third thing is, and this is something we hinted at, there's violent or abusive behavior on the part of an attachment figure. An attachment figure is somebody that you trust, that you feel like you can go to in times of difficulty like a parent, grandparent, older sibling, maybe even a younger sibling, close friend of the family, but you get abused by that person. So what that tells you as a kid is man I cannot be open. I can't even go to my own dad, he's an alcoholic and he's beating the crap out of mom, and he's threatened to beat me, gets in my face, he's hit me where I've had marks, I couldn't go to school. If I can't trust dad who can I trust? And so...

Morgan:

What does that say about me as a person.

Brad:

Yeah what does that say about me if my own dad doesn't like me and he's beating the crap out of me.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

That says a lot. So that creates somebody who's got this relationship style of being able to really be where they feel really uncomfortable being close to others. They find it difficult to trust them completely. It's difficult to allow themselves to depend on someone else, and they're nervous about someone getting too close, and they find that they're in relationships where the other partner always wants them to be more open, reveal more.

Brad:

Then the last thing you hinted at. They have parents who either outright says, or hint at, that they need to be more self-reliant, more independent...

Morgan:

That's right.

Brad:

You got to be tougher, you got to stand on your own feet. Don't get me wrong, you got to do that age appropriately, but if you're doing that at an inappropriate age level. Your high school student loses his girlfriend and he's sad about that you can't just tell him sorry bud, move one, you're going to meet a girl in college. You can do that later, but you can't do that...

Morgan:

In the moment when he's hurting.

Brad:

Well yeah, you got to just comfort him and try to be there, and listen. Eventually you can say, "I went through the same thing, and that's when I met your mother, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I know right now it doesn't feel that way but I'm always here and if I can talk with you about it I'm here."

Morgan:

Yeah, instead of the opposite where it's like, "Grow a pair, stop crying."

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

"Suck it up. Be a man."

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

That doesn't work, it doesn't draw them closer, it doesn't teach them how to manage their feelings, or their emotions, or their needs. They just shut down, and pull away from you, and that's how they respond to their spouse.

Brad:

Absolutely. The other thing is they get these messages that they got be self-reliant, it's either outright told to them or it's implied that they got to be self-reliant and they also get messages that are either told to them or hinted at that they can't ask for needs to be met. They got to bottle things up. It's almost like sometimes they got to take care of their parent instead of being able to just be open and honest about how they feel. One of the things that's dangerous about this Morgan, and this is not meant to make anybody feel terrible. But unless we think about these things and work on these things on ourselves, because we have that mental model we can do it to our own kids. So we have to be aware of this and think about this, and we have to really be able to provide for our own kids secure attachment.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

In relationships we always ask, "Are you there for me?" And if we feel like our caregiver is there for us we feel worth of love and will have a secure relationship style where we feel like we can be open, and honest, and totally give ourselves to somebody.

Morgan:

Yeah, and I think as I've listened to you say this it really brings to mind kids of parents who are alcoholics, who maybe were a sexual abuse survivor, incest survivor, and like I say, it's not always physical bruises, but there are emotional bruises, there's psychological bruising that happens and if you don't deal with it, if you don't handle it, if you don't heal from it, and you can't really do it alone, it's not anything you can do alone, and it's typically much better when you can heal with the one that's your spouse, the one that's your...

Brad:

Oh yeah, it's a heck of a lot better. Here's the thing Morgan, it's your spouse who's validating in confirming you, it's a deeper level of change...

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

Than individual therapy.

Morgan:

Than just individual therapy, yeah.

Brad:

Let your spouse validate in you, not a stranger who's nice, it's your own spouse.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And that...

Morgan:

That attachment figure...

Brad:

Yeah, that attachment figure.

Morgan:

That person in your life that's supposed to love you unconditionally like your parent was supposed to love you unconditionally. So I personally, I understand this at a personal level just how difficult it can be to have be the caregiver to the parent. So if that's you, I know I haven't been an unfaithful person, so you can totally not come away as an unfaithful person, and that sort of thing. But it does affect and impact your relationships with other people, and the most important relationship with your spouse, it does impact that. So it's really important to get the help, to heal this is really what I'm trying to say.

Brad:

Yes, of course. Because, Morgan, to answer your question once a cheater always a cheater, I think you're prone to do it again if you don't get the help. This is not something ... It's not even that you have to come to us, we're available, we have retreats, we work, it's what we do. We love it. But you've got to the help because if you don't, and you can't let somebody in, you're prone to repeat the past, and even when you had. People hate doing this crap but they still find themselves drug to it because they're not really working with somebody who knows how to help them.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

It's like trying to lose weight. It's like you see somebody who's obese, who's really overweight, they've done everything they can, they yo-yo diet, they're trying to break it but sometimes you got to go get outside help. Some things are just bigger than us and we got to go get help, there's no shame in that.

Morgan:

No.

Brad:

Nobody would say to somebody who's overweight, that's been yo-yo dieting for years there's any shame in going to get help with that.

Morgan:

No.

Brad:

You would encourage them to do it.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

So if you're listening to us and you are yo-yoing in your own version of a yo-yo diet in your relationship, and trying to be faithful, and trying to heal from an affair don't do it. Nobody thinks you're crazy if you go get help it's not a sign of weakness, you don't think that about anybody who's that way with their weight, why think that about yourself? Don't be naïve, don't be dumb about that.

Brad:

The other thing Morgan, I want to give a couple examples...

Morgan:

Oh yes, yeah please.

Brad:

Of childhoods. The big thing here is they are emotionally just like I said, those four things. That's the common thing. You just need one of those to really develop into an avoidant relationship style. Here's an example of some of these things that we're talking about. One of them is a parent teaching a child to lie, we don't tell mom about this, keep this a secret for me, I'm going to tell you what it is, but keep this a secret from mom. What does that child lean about relationships? That it's okay to have secrets. It's okay to not fully give yourself over to someone, so it's foolish to trust somebody. Hide things to keep the peace so that child learns that. People don't really question things that they learn from their parents, they just kind of automatically they hear it and then they act it out, they live it out...

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And they don't question it. You eat it, you don't contemplate it.

Morgan:

They're kids.

Brad:

Yeah they're kids and it's where you start learning these relationships. So anyway, the second thing is I had a client once, I had him what his happiest childhood memory was and he said, "Christmas because that's the time of year", he said holidays actually, "because that's the time of year that I knew my mom loved me, that's the only time she ever said she loved me." So this particular person never really had just one best friend, he had a bazillion friends but he never really let anybody in on his emotional world because first he couldn't do it with mom. Then it played out into his relationship where he could never really give himself to his wife.

Morgan:

So they were just very shallow relationships.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah. An abusive dad, one that's physically abusive, that hurts mom, that's abusive towards the child. That's an alcoholic, you just learn you can't trust. There's a common theme you're not there for me, I can't trust you. I can't get my needs met through you, I've got to shut down because this is scary. We develop that template and then we use that even though our spouse isn't that way. Maybe they are, but most likely they're probably not that way. We still act like they are, we still hide, and withdraw, and don't fully give ourselves because our first example were of never giving ourselves completely. So what happens is when our spouse wanting us to be more open with them it feels very foreign to us, it feels very uncomfortable, extremely uncomfortable. And most people can't do it on their own, so it's kinda ... What we talked about, therapy, going to therapy. Having a parent who's not an attachment figure but like a grandparent, you got to go to a grandparent to get your needs met, you can't even go to your own parent. Your parents are so messed up you can't even go to them but you go to go to a grandparent.

Morgan:

Or a teacher.

Brad:

Yeah or a teacher, or someone else, a coach, somebody who's been sexually abused. Just the general theme is cut off parents who aren't there. We're going to hear it from all the time people who say ... Because here's the golden question, I hear people all the time who say, "I had a great childhood." And I'll follow up with the golden question, "Well who did you go to when you were hurt, sad, or afraid? When you were lonely as a kid." "Well nobody." Or if they say they could, "Who did you go to? So you could go to somebody, who was it?" "It was probably mom that I could go to." "Well can you give me examples of when you did that." "Come to think of it I can't. Did I go to mom? I don't remember ever going to her actually. Or it never occurred to me that I could." Those are all things that are examples in this avoidant attachment style and many people who end up becoming unfaithful that's kind of the childhood that they had.

Brad:

So hopefully this has been beneficial for you guys. We don't want to lead you into any confusion or anything, so hopefully this has been beneficial. This is not destiny, this doesn't have to be this way, it doesn't have to because it's your childhood or your spouse's childhood doesn't mean it's predictive of future results in the future, but you do have to go do work on it because most likely it can be, maybe it will be. So you got to go to work on it.

Brad:

Here's just some other childhood's that ... Let me move my papers around so I can share this. Other examples of childhoods, the kind of childhood that we want is we want to be able to say, "We had a secure childhood that produces where we feel like our caregiver is there for us and we feel worthy of love because our caregiver was attentive, they were responsive to us, and they were engaged with us." So somebody that has a secure style would say, "I find it relatively easy to get close to others and I'm comfortable depending on them, and having them depend on me. I don't worry about being abandoned, or about someone getting too close. I'm very comfortable in this relationship." So people who are securely attached who are married to each other are going to be the ones who have the best relationships because they both feel comfortable being vulnerable and open.

Brad:

But, now earlier when I was talking about a pursuer who gets burned out and then they have an affair, this is typically what they're going to say. They're going to say, "I find that other," this is what an anxious partner would say, a pursuer, "They're going to say I find that others are reluctant to get close as I would like. I often worry that my partner doesn't really love me and won't want to stay with me. I want to get very close to my partner and this sometimes scares people away." So an anxious is going to say, "I find that others are reluctant to get as close as I would like. I often worry that my partner doesn't really love me or won't want to stay with me." So they're really anxious about the state of their relationship. "I want to get very close to my partner and this sometimes scares people away." So those folks will have an affair when they start feeling like I'm not going to get my needs met in this relationship, kind of like what we talked about last time in "Hell or High water, Despair and Detachment", that they will begin to grieve that they're not going to get their relationship needs met and then they're vulnerable to an affair happening.

Morgan:

Yeah, so definitely check out that episode. It's called "Hell or High Water, Despair and Detachment," because it's really helpful to understand what happens whenever you start to burn out of the relationship and where it goes from there.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Morgan that's it for right now. Any questions, anything else we need to look over?

Morgan:

Well I think that you've really described avoidant attachment pretty well. Can you sum it up in more of a definitive way, what in a couple of words does avoidant attachment mean?

Brad:

Avoidant attachment in a few words means I don't trust you and I'm uncomfortable getting close to you.

Morgan:

Okay, so an avoidant attachment person if they don't feel like they can...

Brad:

I don't feel like I can give all of myself to you because I don't trust you. And you may be perfect, but if I'm afraid you'll me as weak then that causes me to hold back.

Morgan:

And that holding back causes the negative cycle to spiral and it can open up vulnerabilities for them to cheat, to have an affair.

Brad:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Morgan:

Okay, and ultimately what we're saying is that their children is a big indicator of...

Brad:

This is where avoidant ... Childhood is where the avoidant detachment's created.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

You don't go from a secure attachment style all throughout childhood and then you leave home, and you're an adult, and then develop an avoidant attachment style. That typically doesn't happen. You've got to develop a lot of ... A lot of crap's got to happen for that to develop. But an avoidant attachment style in just a few words is I don't really trust you with myself, giving you all of myself, and my emotions. I prefer my independence and that's because of the way they were raised. They couldn't really trust their parents.

Morgan:

Okay, and then ultimately it boils down to if you can get help and you work on these things you don't have to go down that path, it doesn't necessarily have to be the end for you. You don't have to experience infidelity in your relationship if you can identify what's really happening emotionally and take the necessary actions. I think that's great. Thank you very much Brad for explaining this to us and I think that's the show.

Brad:

Yeah, thank you guys for listening.

Morgan:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Healing Broken Trust podcast. Are you ready to take the next step? Go to healingbrokentrust.com and schedule your one on one coaching call today. That's healingbrokentrust.com.

Ep 46: When They Won't End The Affair