We call it in therapy speak re-escalation. Reverting back to old patterns, so three tips for re-escalation. The first thing I want to do is start with a definition of this re-escalation and talk a little bit more about that. What to do when you think you're doing well and then all of sudden it gets bad again. Re-escalation is when you've make progress and then all of a sudden you revert back to old patterns and habits. This can be so discouraging because you either went to marriage counseling a got a lot of help, you got a lot out of it and felt like you were completely healed and you're like yes, this is great and you came away thinking, wow, we've gotten through this and then something happens and you've fallen backwards.
Ep 37: Your Approach Is Failing
Transcript:
Morgan:
Hey, let's get away to a beautiful location for a destination retreat that will transform your relationship. This opportunity is unlike anything you've done before. Two days with Brad will give your relationship the boost it needs. Then enjoy the beautiful scenery. Go to HealingBrokenTrust.com for more information. Do it soon because time is limited.
Brad:
You're not a failure, your spouse isn't a failure. Your approach is failing you, the strategy you're using is failing you. You may have been to therapists, you may have gone to counseling. You may have done different things on your own to try to heal, but it's really the strategy or the approach that you're taking, that's what's failing you.
Morgan:
Welcome to today's show. I'm Morgan Robinson here with Brad, my husband.
Brad:
Hey guys.
Morgan:
We are excited to bring this week's show to you. First we want to say thank you so much for making us the number one podcast for affair recovery. It is our pleasure to be here and to bring this information to you. Today we're talking about are you stuck? If you're stuck in the process of healing from infidelity, there's a simple concept that we're going to talk about today, and really we're going to break it down into seven points.
Morgan:
There's different things that people do, ways that they approach the healing process that really does not serve them well. We want to point these out so that you can avoid them, so that you don't fall into the pitfalls and the pothole along the way, or whatever. Brad, you want to start us off?
Brad:
Thank you, Morgan. I just want to say, sometimes when couples get stuck in this affair recovery process, they often feel like, "Man, we're not any good together. We suck. Gosh, you suck."
Morgan:
Counseling isn't working or whatever you're trying to do.
Brad:
Yeah, whatever you're trying to do. Really, this is just a simple concept, and we're going to show it in seven areas that is probably the most common, or very common areas that people fall behind in this. To be honest with you it's really, you're not a failure, your spouse isn't a failure, your approach is failing you.
Brad:
The strategy you're using is failing, and so you may have been to therapists, you may have gone to counseling, you may have done different things on your own to try to heal, but it's really the strategy or the approach that you're taking, that's what's failing you, it's not that you are a failure or that your spouse is a failure.
Brad:
You may disagree with me on that, that your spouse isn't a failure, but I don't think they are. I just think the strategy or the approach that they're trying to take is failing you guys. If you're getting stuck in this process and you're not really finding healing, you're not really moving forward, it's probably the approach or strategy that you're taking, it's not really you.
Brad:
I'm certain that you're very successful in a lot of areas of your life, but it's just the approach that you're taking in this, in this crisis. Right now the building is on fire or the smoke alarms are going off. The wrong strategy is to say, "You know what? I got some time. I'll just wait, and I bet it's a false alarm" or "I don't need to start walking out of the building and getting to safety." That's a wrong strategy, that's a wrong approach.
Brad:
You're not a failure, just you've been using the wrong strategy and the wrong approach. These are areas where people tend to have the wrong strategy in.
Morgan:
Okay.
Brad:
I heard this from a client and it's really funny. They gave me this name, and so I'm using their words. If they're listening, they're going to know who they are, but it's kind of smiling as I say it. Trickle down info, trickle truth is what he called it. If you have trickle truth, this is where you're basically not really coming forward with the truth, the honesty that the injured partner needs to be able to heal. That's a strategy that's going to fail you.
Brad:
Because people, they need the truth, they need the truth. They don't give it up. They don't just say, "Okay, I guess I'm not going to get it." They continue to feel like they're being lied to, they continue to be hyper vigilant, they continue to really struggle, and so they need that truth.
Brad:
Just get it over with, just bring it all out. Just dump it out there. Then you can get on with more of the healing journey and really the main parts of the healing journey. Because the truth part is a big component, but it's not probably even the main component, Morgan, to be honest with you. It's a part of it, but it's almost like playing the game Monopoly. It's part of the game that allows you to pass go and you get $200 every time you pass go, but that's not how you win Monopoly. It's not who passes go more. There's other strategies that help you win Monopoly.
Brad:
Part of the affair recovery process is you do need the truth though. Don't get me wrong. If your spouse needs the truth, if they feel like they're not getting the full story from you, they're going to need that to be able to let it go and heal because they need to see you as trustworthy, but there's so much more to the healing process than just that stage. That's one area where people take the wrong approach.
Morgan:
Absolutely. If you think that just withholding parts of the information is actually going to help your relationship, we've talked about this before, it's not. It's not going to do what you think it will, it's not going to help.
Brad:
It's always been a crash and burn scenario, always.
Morgan:
Always, absolutely. Let's go on to the second point. I hear this often when I talk to people over the phone. They assume that their partner needs to go fix themselves, or they need to go learn why they did it before they can join them in counseling. They're saying "Hey, you go fix yourself. You go visit the marriage counselor by yourself or you go to individual therapy, and maybe I'll join you later, because you need to figure out why you did it. You need to figure out what's wrong with you," or whatever their thought process is, "Before I'll come with you."
Morgan:
That's really just a false strategy. It's not a strategy that helps. It's not a strategy that actually really gets you answers. One thing I tell people, and this is very true. Let's say your spouse ... Yes, there are situations where they do need individual therapy, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying if they go to therapy, if they go see the marriage counselor by themselves to understand why they did it, and they figure out why they did it, it doesn't fix the communication problem in the relationship, and it doesn't help them come back to you and explain to you why they did it. Because number one, you're still traumatized.
Brad:
Morgan, part of it is, is many times people will have an affair because they felt rejected first or unwanted first, and this is barring cases of sex addiction, where somebody felt unwanted first or undesired by their spouse. They got caught in a negative cycle. The answer they came up with may be, "I wasn't happy with you. You hurt me."
Brad:
Most of the time, you're really going to be benefited by working with an expert to help you work through the affair recovery process. There might be limited circumstances where it's a good idea to go figure it out on your own, and go get individual treatment, but really both of you need to be getting help in your marriage.
Morgan:
Right. Really, before you self-diagnosis, because I think that's the biggest thing. You self-diagnose, and you think, "Well, this is my answer. This is what our problem really is." You need to let the professional do that first. Let them know what you think is going on so that they can get a really good full picture of both sides so then they can say, "Yeah, that's the case" or "No, let's do this." Make sure you don't self-diagnose and assume that somebody needs to go by them self first, because that's really going to shoot you in the foot.
Morgan:
Okay, ready for the third one?
Brad:
The third one we have here is really minimizing your partner's feelings. Thinking that they should be able just to stuff what they've experienced and be able to just, so both of you can go on your merry way and be happy with each other. "You've got to stuff this pain and trauma that I caused you so that I can be happy again." That's pretty selfish.
Morgan:
Yeah, and I don't think that people consciously, always consciously do that, but they'll do it in certain ways, and I'm sure you'll explain.
Brad:
Yeah. People feel like, "Hey, stuff this, bottle this. I hurt you in this way. I'm stuffing my pain so we can be together." That's the strategy that's destined to fail because what's not happening there, you're not taking on your spouse's emotional needs. Your spouse is not seeing you as a safe person who cares about them and their pain.
Brad:
They're just saying, "Hurry the heck up. Let's get this process over with. Let's enjoy life. I'm tired of trying to answer your questions. I'm tired of you getting triggered. I'm tired of you asking about the affair partner. Let's just go on." An approach that really fails is minimizing your partner's feelings.
Morgan:
Downplaying it.
Brad:
Downplaying it. You really have to take on their emotional needs. You got to work to be a safe person for each other. That goes both ways, but you really got to work to be safe for each other emotionally. Morgan, that leads us to the next one.
Morgan:
Yean, and sometimes people will say, "Oh, I got it, I know, I hurt you. I got it, I know, I hurt you." That's really still that minimizing and downplaying.
Morgan:
Anyways, let's go on to number four. Time will heal all wounds. The strategy that really just doesn't work. Time will not heal the wounds. It might minimize some of the trauma for a time but it's not going to make the trauma go away. We find a lot of people that are just not able to be vulnerable with each other anymore. They're not able to let each other in because there's this lack of trust that's always going to be there if you don't deal with it. Do you have anything to add?
Brad:
Yeah. What I would add to that is time doesn't heal squat. What really helps people heal is really being able to heal in each other's arms. Just thinking, "We're going to drop this, we're going to bury it, and we're going to go on." Usually what happens when people take the time heals all wounds approach is numbness sets in, and emotional distance sets in.
Brad:
People really get to a point of feeling, "I might be better off just on my own. They hurt me in this really dreadful way." It's not the one who had the affair who thinks about leaving, it's the one who got betrayed because it's like, "This is it? This is the makeup? This is the honeymoon? This is how things are going to be? I'm over here traumatized and you don't care."
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
Time doesn't heal all wounds. Usually the people who have that strategy are people who are not getting help, who are not getting expert help. They're the ones who will adopt that strategy of, "Hey, time heals all wounds, we don't need counseling. Let's just do it on our own. We'll be okay. It's going to be hard, six months, but we'll make it."
Morgan:
That's the same group of people that will minimize.
Brad:
Yeah, yeah. They'll do that as well.
Morgan:
Ready for the next one?
Brad:
Yeah. The next one here is thinking that just getting answers to your questions alone will solve all of the relationship problems. Because really what's underneath the questions that people ask persistently is really, "I'm afraid. Can I trust you? Can I get my needs met with you? Am I safe with you?" Every time you hear your spouse ask a question, and every time that you ask a question, it's really because what you're saying is, "I'm still afraid. I want to know that I can trust you. I want to know that my heart is safe with you."
Brad:
Sometimes our head says, "This is scary," but our heart still loves our spouse. We want them with us, we want them close. Sometimes we think that we have to always get it logically. Sometimes if we approach it in a black or white way ... Obviously, infidelity's always wrong in my book. I don't think there's ever really a circumstance where infidelity is right. If there is, I would be shocked if there's actually a circumstance where it's okay to cheat or have an affair. I don't think there is.
Brad:
When people have an affair and go through that, it's not a black and white thought process for them, it's actually very gray. To try and think that you can understand it through logic alone or understanding alone, you can't. Obviously given the story and details helps but that alone will not help you heal. That will just say, "At least you're trying and you're trustworthy, and I can understand you, and you're more predictable." People sometimes get stuck in this loop of, "I need these questions answered," and that alone doesn't always heal.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
There is a point though, because I need to be careful, there's a point where that's really needed in the healing journey, but there becomes a point where that's not really going to ever help somebody heal.
Morgan:
Right, so answering why is not going to be the end all, be all. It's not going to be the thing ...
Brad:
It's important.
Morgan:
It's important but it's not going to be the thing, the only thing that causes you to somehow love your spouse again, trust your spouse again, fully open up to your spouse again. It's not going to be the only thing that leads to complete healing.
Brad:
No.
Morgan:
Let's move on to number six. Not sharing your vulnerable side. Your emotions, your vulnerability, what's really deep inside, what's really going on for you. Not sharing that is a terrible strategy. You'll just land flat on your face every time, but that is so scary for so many people.
Morgan:
Because that vulnerable side is like I mean, "First of all, you've hurt me with this affair. Second of all, before the affair happened, there was this terrible negative cycle, and we were always at each other's throat. I could never really count on you. I could never really get close, for whatever reason. Now you're asking me to be vulnerable? I couldn't be vulnerable before."
Morgan:
This is where therapy's really, really important because you have that safe place. You have that safe person, so that you're not going to be torn to shreds because they're not going to let it happen. You can learn to get to that vulnerable place so that you don't let this happen again. Because that's really, answering why, understanding all the detailed questions, I mean that's very important but it's not going to be the thing that allows that vulnerability to just magically appear.
Morgan:
It's the professional who knows how to help you get there. That's where you're going to start really healing and being able to then get close to your spouse again, and have those bonding events that we've talked about in previous episodes. Brad, do you want to add to that?
Brad:
Yeah. All I would add to that, Morgan, is really that approach of encountering the vulnerable side, sharing your vulnerable side, sharing your deep, primary emotion, sharing the sadness, and the hurt, and the fear, and letting your spouse see that part of you. In these conversations when they encounter that, they encounter somebody who's safe. They encounter somebody that maybe the don't believe always or trust as far as they can throw them, but they're a tad more believable, they're a tad more ...
Morgan:
Safe.
Brad:
Safe. That vulnerability is really the key to healing. Most people, I say most, I really think probably almost everybody really struggles to do that because of these negative cycles that people get caught into. These negative cycles are just really a ...
Morgan:
They're intense.
Brad:
Well, they're intense but it's the pattern we had before the affair, and if it's not addressed we're going to be healing with the pattern that we had before we had the affair.
Morgan:
Ready for the next one?
Brad:
Yeah. This a big one, Morgan. It's thinking that you can do it on your own. Nobody in their right mind who gets diagnosed with cancer is going to think, "Hey, I can do this on my own." They're going to think, "Hey, this is a crisis. My life is falling apart. I'm just going to go do this on my own."
Morgan:
Take supplements.
Brad:
"I'm going to take supplements, eat fruit I like. Just go vegan and that's going to cure my cancer." Not too many people have that kind of ... That's a wrong strategy, that's a wrong approach.
Morgan:
Steve Jobs.
Brad:
Yeah, well the wrong approach is really just thinking you can do it on your own. Part of that is not being in intensive therapy. If you are working through the healing process and you're only doing an hour a week of counseling, that's not really an effective approach. I really discourage it. Sometimes I have that happen for financial reasons but ...
Morgan:
Where people want to do once a week?
Brad:
Yeah, do once a week.
Morgan:
For an hour?
Brad:
Yeah. Once a week for an hour. Then it's like they don't come in every week and then they get escalated and it's like ...
Morgan:
Right, yeah.
Brad:
"Sorry guys it's, you're dealing with some major stuff here."
Morgan:
You have to follow the process.
Brad:
Yeah, but a big part of this is just thinking the financial cost outweigh any benefit of getting help for your marriage. It's like, "Man, this is going to be way more expensive than any benefit that we're going to get out of it."
Brad:
Really, you need to think about, when is the right time to get marriage counseling? If it's not now, then when? Is it when the kids are older and you've been healing with the same pattern that you have now when they leave the house? There's numbness and the one who got betrayed is like, "Screw this. I'm done." When is the right time? If it's not now, then when? If this isn't a time to get marriage counseling and to go see an expert, and to get help, I don't know what is.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
If you broke your arm, and you see a bone protruding out of your arm, through the flesh, that's a good time to go to the emergency room.
Morgan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Brad:
That's not a time to go do it on your own and patch things up.
Morgan:
Exactly.
Brad:
That's one of the biggest mistakes people make. As many couples as I see who've experienced infidelity, there are so many others that never go talk to anybody, never go get help or if they do, it's one and done. It's just one session. They're not getting the help, they're not looking at resources. Obviously you guys are the exception to that. You're listening to this podcast and you're learning and you're growing. Many of you guys have inquired about working with us for retreats, that's an option that we have for you guys. We would love to work with you personally, but you can't hold on to that kind of false belief.
Morgan:
Yeah, exactly. If you'd like to learn more about how you can work with us, you can go to HealingBrokenTrust.com, that's HealingBrokenTrust.com. We have resources there for you, and you can set up your retreat. You're also welcome to call our office, and the phone number is there on the website as well.
Brad:
You're also able to do a coaching call as well.
Morgan:
That's right. If you would like to learn more about it, you can talk to our office or you can schedule a coaching call and learn more about how you can take advantage of the retreat. All right guys, have a great week.
Brad:
Thank you. Bye, bye.
Ep 38: Healing Wounds Through Bonding Events
Transcript:
Morgan:
Hey, let's get away to a beautiful location for a destination retreat that will transform your relationship. This opportunity is unlike anything you've done before. Two days with Brad will give your relationship the boost it needs. Then enjoy the beautiful scenery. Go to healingbrokentrust.com for more information. Do it soon, because time is limited.
Brad:
How do I know you're going to do the same to me? You grew up with them, you created this life with them, they have this level of significance and attachment meaning to you. I don't have any of that with you. Granted, you feel like I'm your soul mate, but how do I know the tables aren't going to turn on me once you stop feeling that way?
Morgan:
Hey guys, welcome to the show. I'm Morgan Robinson here with Brad, my handsome husband.
Brad:
Hidey ho, everybody.
Morgan:
Hello, and before we get started we want to say, we have some amazing destination retreats available. Actually, we have filled our calendar in June and July for destination retreats, so we don't have anything available for June or July, but we do have a destination retreat available for August 30 and 31, that's a Wednesday and Thursday, so if you want to get away from your problems, where they are, no matter where you are, and come to a beautiful sunny destination, really get a new lease on life ...
Brad:
To maybe Cancun or Florida, to get away.
Morgan:
Yeah, then you can book a destination retreat over the phone, you can give us a call at 918-281-6060 and book that destination retreat today while it's still available, and you can check us out on the web at healingbrokentrust.com. We hope to see you soon.
Morgan:
There are some destination retreats available further out, but also we have retreats available in our Tulsa office, so you can come to Tulsa and do a retreat in the office, we just don't have any getaway retreats in June and July available at this point in time.
Morgan:
Let's go ahead and get started. We've had several people over the years, and we have lots of people who call us and talk with us and say "My spouse has left for the other person, or they want to leave," and we sometimes hear from that spouse who says, you know, "I want to leave, I'm thinking about leaving for the affair partner," and they say, "Well, I don't know if counseling will work," or they might be afraid that they won't ever be happy in their marriage or in their present relationship as they are or would be in the affair.
Morgan:
Today we're gonna talk about that, why not just leave for the affair partner? So Brad, do you want to talk a little bit about what the research says?
Brad:
Sure, yeah, sure. We can talk about the research, Morgan, talk about my experience in working with couples on this issue.
Morgan:
Absolutely.
Brad:
And Morgan, let me just briefly say this: this is a hard topic for me to talk about because I always try to be fair to everybody.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
And this one, it's hard to talk about because the reality of the situation is pretty bleak. The statistics are really stacked against people who go and try to be with the affair partner. I just don't want anybody to think I'm being unfair by describing my experience of working with couples with this and by delivering statistics, but this is something that we encounter a lot, and I've helped people work through.
Brad:
Our listeners, they only know us through this podcast, so we're really trying to be fair, and part of that fairness is kinda accurately reporting what we experience in doing this and what the research shows.
Morgan:
Exactly. Right.
Brad:
So, why not leave? Why stay, basically? And I think, like you said, there's research on this. One of the pieces of research shows that only a small number of people who left their spouse to go marry their affair partner are still married.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
There's only a small number of people that are still married after five years who started their marriage as an affair.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
Five years later, are still married.
Morgan:
And I was really surprised to hear that actually, a small percentage leaves. So, as someone who's experienced betrayal I think many believe that the betrayer will just leave for the affair partner, but you're saying that it's actually a small percentage that actually leave. Why is that?
Brad:
Why is it a small percentage that actually leave and not a larger percentage?
Morgan:
Yeah, yeah, like everybody.
Brad:
First of all, a lot of people know that an affair is impractical. They aren't really in love with the affair partner. Maybe there's certain things that they enjoy from the affair, but they're not truly in love with the affair partner. Not everybody feels like they're married to the wrong person, in that the affair partner's their soul mate. The people who tend to think that the affair partner's their soul mate and get really stuck on that limerence, they're the ones that are going to be thinking about leaving to go be with the affair partner.
Brad:
So, not every affair is that way, so not everybody who has an affair is just automatically thinking "Hey, I want to go be with this person." Some people know that they can see the reality of the situation, say this isn't gonna be pretty. They're able to see the pain of what the separation will bring, from their spouse. They're able to see ... and honestly, they're even able to see the pain of what it will be like to be with the affair partner.
Brad:
In the biggest reason why people don't leave, they also know the significance that their spouse has, and that their family has, on their lives. A lot of people see their spouse as somebody they had children with, that they became an adult with, that they grew up with.
Morgan:
They have history with.
Brad:
They have history with them.
Morgan:
Yeah.
Brad:
Their spouse is a good person, but there's also this inherent distrust towards somebody that they've had an affair with, so most people don't leave, because the affair partner's not really what they want, so they don't leave. But the people who do leave tend to be people that have gotten caught in limerence, which is something that we've talked about in a previous episode for you guys to listen to. One of the very first ones, we talk about limerence and how to fall out of love.
Morgan:
I think any other we'd term it is lovesickness, and that sort of thing. So, and that leads me to this other question. There's two basic trust issues. If they don't have one, then they have the other, and sometimes they have both, so you want to talk about what those are?
Brad:
Yeah. The two trust issues that people have when they've left their spouse and decided to marry or be with their affair partner, the first is ... and sometimes they have both, but if they didn't, if they don't have one they definitely got the other, and this is usually what brings them into marriage counseling. But the first is, you left your family, you left your children to be with me.
Morgan:
All of your friends who divided up.
Brad:
Yeah, your friends are divided up, you left ...
Morgan:
Sometimes your job, where you live-
Brad:
Your job, you left your family to be with me. It seems like your spouse is a nice person, it didn't seem like your marriage was that bad. How do I know you're not gonna do the same to me? You grew up with them. You created this life with them. They have this level of significance and attachment meaning to you. How do I know that ... I don't have any of that with you. I've only known you for a brief period, and our relationship has had to be secret the whole time. How do I know you're not gonna do that to me?
Brad:
I'm not as important to you, in attachment significance, as they are. Granted you feel like I'm your soul mate, but how do I know the tables aren't gonna turn on me once you stop feeling that way?
Morgan:
Or if I'm honest with you.
Brad:
Yeah, and Morgan, the other thing is, this really creates a lot of distress, too. Not a lot of people make a clean break, to leave their spouse and then go be with the affair partner. It's not like "Okay, you discovered the affair, now I'm leaving this weekend to go be with them." It's pretty messy, and so a lot of people go be with the affair partner, then come back home. They live this double life.
Brad:
Maybe the spouse doesn't know what's going on. The spouse rarely knows the full details. The affair partner often doesn't really know the full details. If they both talk, they're both gonna end up feeling betrayed, because they're gonna realize, hey, this person is lying to both of us. They're "betraying" both of us.
Brad:
People don't really ever make a clean getaway, clean break, and go with the affair partner, and so what happens is that's just gonna make it more difficult to have a healthy relationship.
Brad:
And then the other thing, Morgan, that makes these relationships hard, this is another issue that brings people in, usually one of them has cheated on the other. That's why they're coming to see me again.
Morgan:
Okay, so the first one is, how do I know that you're not going to do what you did to your spouse to me, and then the other is, they come in because of more betrayal, because they're kind of in a pattern and a habit of betraying and so they betray each other.
Brad:
Yeah, one of them has ended up betraying. That's kinda the grim reality of this is, there's kinda not just two but maybe three reasons to have ... you could add more, but maybe three basic that I see is, you betray them, you've now betrayed me with an affair, and then it took you forever to leave them to be with me. How do I know I'm really important to you? So you have to ask yourself, you gotta look at this realistically, because what people do is they look at the pleasure of this. "I found my soul mate, I feel so good. When I'm away from them, I feel so unhappy and I feel this despair, and I feel depressed when I'm not with them, but when I'm with them I feel great." People focus on that, but what they don't focus on is the faults of the affair partner, they're focused on the faults of their spouse to the hilt.
Morgan:
Right, of course.
Brad:
They see that, they feel the resentment towards their spouse, but the affair partner represents greener pastures, a new opportunity. If you're gonna be fair to yourself, something you need to do for yourself as you're listening to this, is you really need to look at this as objective as you really can, because usually what people do is they focus on the pleasure of being with that person but they don't focus on the pain that's really gonna be there.
Morgan:
Right, right. So then that's kinda the next questions, is the pain of staying and the pleasure of leaving, but they aren't realistic about the pain they'll experience in the new relationship. So what sort of pain would they experience if they leave for the affair partner?
Brad:
That's a good question, Morgan. There's a lot of pain there, and the pain of leaving to be with the affair partner is, rarely are they ever truly happy.
Morgan:
Right. There's always a level of mistrust.
Brad:
Yeah. I mean, granted, there's always some Hollywood couple that you could point to. Some exception. There's gonna be some exception to everything. There's gonna be somebody that lives to be 140 years old when everyone else is dying at 70.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
There's gonna be some exception somewhere, but are you that exception?
Morgan:
Right, and it's very rare.
Brad:
It's very unlikely that you're gonna be that exception, because what the research shows is that 80% of people that divorce during an affair, because of an affair, end up regretting it.
Morgan:
Right. And I think part of the reason for that is because they just don't know that person. They don't know their faults, they don't know what they look like in the morning for real, they don't know how they respond or react in different situations and scenarios because they've only seen one side of them.
Brad:
Yeah, well, and Morgan, here's something else. Is, there's a lot of people who, some of you who aren't, who've been betrayed, you might find this surprising, but there's a lot of people who have an affair and they actually fight a lot with the affair partner. It's not uncommon for people to really fight a lot with the affair partner. Talk about-
Morgan:
Pretty normal.
Brad:
Yeah, it's actually normal for them to do that, and that creates the mistrust, that creates reasons not to be with them. People don't really always think about that pain. I've had people who plan to leave, who left, and they're like "Yeah, we fight all the time." They're like "I'm not in limerence because we fight all the time," but they still feel like this is my soul mate, they really minimize the flaws, the negative characteristics that are there. They're not really looking at it objectively, and so that's something you have to ask yourself, is like, what kind of foundation are we creating here for ourselves? If this were a business deal and we were moving forward in business and this is how it started, would you even like this person down the road? Just add in the other normal family stuff.
Brad:
You have to ask yourself, are my kids gonna like this person? Because kids typically feel betrayed too, whenever a parent leaves. So a kid will say "Why are you leaving me and Mom, or leaving me and Dad, and my brothers and sisters to go be with them and raise their kids? Why are you gonna go sleep at their house and take care of them, and you're gonna leave me here?" Kids feel betrayed, and it's very hard to get over stuff like that.
Morgan:
Right. It's hard to build a healthy, happy relationship and marriage and family.
Brad:
In general.
Morgan:
Based on that.
Brad:
Yeah, in general, but when you don't have a good foundation it's a lot harder, and part of this foundation is, people who start out as an affair and then when they do marry, their marriages are twice as likely to divorce, and so it's really something to be mindful of and aware of.
Morgan:
And it's because of that negative cycle, it's because how can you have bonding events, how can you have kinda deep understanding of the person and open yourself up to that person if you just can't know for sure that they're gonna stay with you, and I can't imagine there's any amount of "Oh, don't worry. I'll stay with you, don't worry, I love you, don't worry." You can't really speak to that if the actions haven't followed, if the track record hasn't been solid, to say the least.
Brad:
Yeah, you're absolutely right, Morgan.
Morgan:
So let's talk about, what are some things they need to look at, realistically, if they're considering leaving. What should they focus on, what are some things that they should ask themselves, maybe-
Brad:
Good question. Well, I think you have to ... like I said earlier, usually people are focused on the pain of staying with their spouse, and they're focused on the pleasure of being with the affair partner. You need to switch that if you're gonna give yourself a fair chance. You need to think about the pleasure of staying with your spouse and the pain of being with the affair partner.
Brad:
One of the things that you also need to ask yourself is, right now we're in the beginning of this relationship. We're maybe a year in, two years in, we're six months in, we're a month in. You need to ask yourself, and we're fighting right now, we're not getting along right now, we're already talking about can we trust each other. This is the honeymoon of your relationship, so you need to really be fair to yourself and ask this kind of question. You need to think long-term perspective on this.
Brad:
You need to also kinda ask yourself, where am I really watering the grass right now? Because the grass is greener where you water it, so where am I watering the grass right now? Am I watering it with the affair partner and ignoring my spouse? Am I not giving us a fair chance? Am I in limerence, because limerence ends whenever you are actually with that other person. Adversity is what creates limerence, and so if you don't remember when limerence is, limerence is a feeling of lovesickness, romantic love, obsessive love, where you really are just infatuated and head over heels for this other person because you feel wanted by them, where you find them attractive, and what people do is they feel like this is their soul mate. They're willing to give up anything for it.
Brad:
You have to really be fair to yourself, and you're fair to yourself by asking these hard questions.
Morgan:
What will my relationship with this person look like a year from now, two years from now?
Brad:
Yes. And our kids, if they have kids. What's that gonna be like with my kids? Are my kids gonna hate my guts, are they gonna resent me? Because, and again I'm in a unique position with this because of what I do, children also feel betrayed. They often don't know about what happened, because people typically are pretty good at keeping things away from the kids, but if they see mom and dad are divorcing, and kids are smart, they're gonna figure out two plus two equals four. Somebody else was involved in this. They overhear things, kids are bright. Even young kids are gonna figure stuff out.
Brad:
A year later, you're getting married to someone else, they're gonna start feeling betrayed as well, and it's gonna fracture your relationship with them.
Morgan:
Right, and then they're gonna hate, or they'll potentially hate the affair partner, who then will have a terrible relationship with your kids, and they're gonna make it hard for you, probably, to even see your kids, because they have such a terrible relationship with your kids. Your kids make their life miserable, and then what's gonna happen? It's either gonna put a rift between you and your kids, or it's gonna put a rift between you and your new partner, so consider that. You may not see your kids ever again, they may not want to come around you because of the affair partner.
Brad:
Yeah, and you may put every one of them in weekly counseling.
Morgan:
Right.
Brad:
You really have to think about this. You have to be fair to yourself, ask these hard questions. One of the questions you have to ask yourself is, we've been at this for a while. We've been talking about leaving our spouses and being with each other, and it's been six months and they haven't left yet. It's been a year, they haven't left. It's been three years, they haven't left. It's been three and a half years, four years, they haven't left.
Morgan:
Do they really love me?
Brad:
Do they, yeah. Are they really gonna leave to be with me? Am I really gonna leave to be with them?
Morgan:
Right. And if I did, what's that gonna look like?
Brad:
Yeah, and that goes back to, at the end of the day the spouse is always more important than the affair partner. People may feel ... they may not feel that way when they're in limerence with somebody, they may not feel like my spouse is more important, but at the end of the day, that's the case.
Morgan:
Wouldn't you want the person that you're with, wouldn't you want their full heart? Wouldn't you want all of them and not just a part of them? You know, when you love someone and you care for them, wouldn't you want their full attention? Wouldn't you want all of their love, realistically, you know, their romantic love, but you're not getting that, and you won't ever get that, which is hard for people to grasp.
Morgan:
I think sometimes they think "Oh, surely once they break it off I'll get their full attention, their full love," but will you? Will you get it? I don't know, because like you're saying, they haven't broke off their marriage yet, why not? Because it's hard, sure, but they love their spouse. There's history there.
Brad:
Yeah.
Morgan:
There was a commitment there that was pure and was not defiled from the beginning, so you deserve it. You deserve a relationship where they chose you, they made a definitive choice to be with you from the start, and they sought you out and you did it legitimately because you owe yourself that. You don't want to be the other person, because it doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel like you're winning at life. It just feels terrible to be the other person, so I don't know. Just my thought.
Brad:
Yeah, those are good thoughts, Morgan. And so part of this is ... all of our decisions throughout life are really based on one thing. We're always moving away from pain and towards pleasure, so if we want to change our behavior, change our experience, we have to think more about the pain that we experience with certain behaviors, and the pleasure of not doing certain things. That's basically how we get out of this, and hopefully this has been worth your guys' time. This came up ... and usually all my podcasts are kinda things I'm dealing with throughout the week, or the last few weeks, so I just wanted to kinda talk about this.
Morgan:
So, just to kinda clarify a little piece of what you said too, we want to switch our thinking now. So all along, we've been thinking "oh, the pain of being with our spouse. Oh, the pleasure of being with this person who makes me feel good, maybe lifts my depression," but you need to make a conscious effort to switch that pain-pleasure dichotomy, I guess. So start associating the pain with the reality of leaving for that person. Will it hurt? Yes, it will hurt, and start really marinating on the pain of leaving for the affair partner and start considering the pleasure of healing this relationship with your spouse, so that is important to say.
Brad:
Yeah, Morgan, that's great. I just wanted to say one last thing.
Morgan:
Okay.
Brad:
This is something that's another piece of research I came across since we recorded the limerence episode, and this is really important because when people experience limerence, they mistake that as this is a sign of who my soul mate's supposed to be.
Morgan:
Gotcha.
Brad:
You know, this is who God or the universe is telling me I need to be with. This is my soul mate, but what the research shows us is that when somebody begins a relationship with limerence, that infatuation, that lovesickness, that love addiction, that state we see them as perfect and just feel like when you're with them you feel great and when you're away you feel sad and despair ...
Morgan:
Depressed.
Brad:
Those relationships don't always end up in happy relationships, but when people marry somebody, that starts as a companionship-type relationship.
Morgan:
Gotcha.
Brad:
And so what happens is, you marry somebody as a companion, and you feel that companionship love, but then when you sometimes have an affair, what happens is you feel limerence.
Morgan:
For that other person.
Brad:
You feel stronger romantic feelings, then you begin to question your marriage, and so that's an additional piece of that limerence, and I wanted to mention before we go today.
Morgan:
Yeah, that's important. Yeah, so that's really really important. You just dropped a bomb in the middle of this ...
Brad:
And it's time to end. We gotta get going.
Morgan:
Dang it. So maybe we'll impact that a little bit more later. But thank you guys for listening, thank you for being with us today. It's always a pleasure. Thank you for making us the number one podcast for Fair Recovery on iTunes. We will talk to you next time.
Brad:
Thank you guys, bye bye.
Ep 40: 1 Quick Way To Feeling 100%
Transcript:
Brad (00:55):
You know, they see that negative cycle of avoidance emotional distance or fighting or arguing the pattern that they've had for years, that emotional RET that they've got into that is more of a deterrent than the affair partner.
Morgan (01:10):
So they're really trying to move away from pain towards pleasure instead of really totally towards pleasure. It's really away from the pain because they don't know how to connect and have that relationship. They really want hello and welcome to healing broken trust podcast. I'm Morgan Robinson, and
Brad (01:29):
I'm Brad Robinson.
Morgan (01:30):
And welcome to today's show. First, we're gonna talk about the kind of relationship the betrayer has with the affair partner what's going on in the mind of the betray during the affair, and then we're gonna talk what keeps them from recommitting or reinvesting back into their marriage. So Brad, why don't we talk about, you know, the typical affair relationship? What does the typical affair relationship
Brad (01:54):
Look like? Okay, Morgan, that's a really good question. I want to preface by saying that when I talk about this, I'm talking about which probably generally true, and not necessarily what's specifically true about every affair and every relationship that somebody has with their affair partner. And so I would just say that this is probably generally true most of the time, and this is typically what I see, but I just want to preface that because there obviously are gonna be exceptions to this. So, Morgan, the question is, is, you know, what does a typical relationship look like? I think one of the assumptions and this definitely was for me is that when somebody's in an affair, it's usually rainbows in sunshine. That's what
Morgan (02:41):
People usually think.
Brad (02:42):
Yeah. That's what people usually think. And that's honestly what I thought, like when someone's in an affair, like, you know, it's a fantasy, there are people who feel that and experience that. But I wouldn't say that's probably true for a very large portion. It's not like going to Disneyland or Disney world and having a time of your life and you just love it and you're riveted by it.
Morgan (03:03):
So it's not always limerence.
Brad (03:05):
No, it's not always limerence and it's definitely not something that is definitely rainbows and sunshine. I remember the first time I heard somebody describe how much fighting they had with their affair partner. I just was shocked by it. I couldn't
Morgan (03:19):
Believe it. That they would even stay with that person.
Brad (03:22):
Yeah. Yeah. They, I mean, there was a lot of fighting and I don't remember all the particulars, but that, that's the one thing that stood out to me. I was like, wow, there's a lot of fighting. I was just shocked by that. And so that's kind of a, and it turns out, you know, as I've learned more over the years about this, that's in some ways that's kind not common. It's not always the case, but it's, it's
Morgan (03:42):
Pretty common. The fighting and the arguing and all of that is common.
Brad (03:45):
Yeah. I mean, like in the beginning of an affair, obviously you're gonna have, you're gonna feel good. You're gonna feel wanted that person's gonna make you feel good and that, that sort of thing. But as the relationship progresses, it, it kind of turns into more of a, a real relationship where there's disagreements and fighting and arguing. And it's not, you know, this honeymoon type thing, it moves past that. One of the things, you know, when people are involved in an affair is that they're not really giving more to the affair emotionally of themselves to the affair partner than they do with their own spouse. It's not like they're opening a door and giving something brand new that they've never given before to their affair partner that they've never given to their spouse. Often with their spouse, they've been much more vulnerable and much more intimate, much more open than they have been with your affair partner. And the main thing they get out of the affair is just feeling good about themselves.
Morgan (04:47):
That's really interesting, Brad, that most of the time, it's about feeling good about yourself. It's not necessarily that they have this great intimacy with the affair partner. And I know we've talked a little bit about that before. Do you wanna expound upon that before we go to the next, what exactly are you talking about? What I'm talking about there is really that they're not necessarily giving more to the affair partner than they are to their spouse. We've talked about, you know, previously, you know, that the relationship is not rainbows and sunshine, that it's not, you know, this always full of love or whatever and happiness. And it sounds like to me that typically people, when they get found out or when it, when they try to turn the relationship into, when they bring the relationship out into the spotlight and it's found out, I imagine a lot of the, the mystical parts or what is it, what's a good word. The, the parts of the relationship that were secret and kind of exciting sort of dissipate because they've been found out it's, it's not as fun anymore. Do you
Brad (05:49):
Agree? Yeah, I would agree with that.
Morgan (05:51):
So what's going on in the affair that keeps them kind of there then if they're fighting and all of that, I mean, what keeps them with the affair partner?
Brad (05:59):
Well, that's a great question. I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, there's a limerence factor that we've talked about before and in limerence I'm not gonna go into all depth of limerence, but I'll just define it. Limerence is basically this feeling of infatuation or love sickness or romantic love that feel often in the beginning of a relationship that could keep people in with the affair partner. Typically when somebody experiences that they kind of feel like, man, I missed the mark. I married the wrong person. This is my soulmate. I didn't feel this with my spouse. When we got married, we had more of a companionship love. And we've, we've talked about that previously, you know what keeps them from? I'm go, just going back into their marriage. Honestly, it's gonna be something it's really gonna be their own beef or problems with that relationship. That's it's not like I'm leaving you for someone else.
Brad (06:49):
Often what people say when they're in an affair and they're unsure about recommitting back to the marriage. They're they say, I'm not necessarily gonna go leave you to be with that other person, the affair partner. Yeah. The affair partner. I might just, if we don't work out, I'm probably gonna end up on my own. It's not that I'm necessarily wanting to go be with the affair partner. It's I have problems with us and how we've been and how we've communicated and my own hurts and my own experiences with us. And so I'm not sure if I would want to be with either one of you and
Morgan (07:20):
Maybe just relationships in general, maybe they felt they felt jaded or hurt by relationships. And they've sort of become kind of numb to the idea of connecting. That might be one thing. Another might be, I've heard people say this to you, the affair partner needs me, so it's hard to just abandon them. So maybe that's one thing that keeps them with the affair. But how about we move to the next question? Sure. What kind of relationship does the betrayer have with the affair partner? We've talked a little bit about that, but do you wanna expound upon it?
Brad (07:55):
Yeah, Morgan, I would just say that they're really not typically playing on being with each other. Oftentimes when someone's involved in an affair, obviously there's gonna be people who are having an affair where they're actually planning on out, you know, but generally when there's an affair, that's not the case. They're not really wanting to do that. And there there's a percentage of people who, who do want that. And I would say it's probably a smaller percentage. The majority of folks, I would say they would prefer to stay married. They actually still care deeply about their spouse and their marriage. They just don't see an opportunity to have that again, you know, have a deeper bond with their spouse. They don't know how to get there and we'll get to that in a little bit. But typically the average affair relationship, they're not actually even planning on being with each other.
Brad (08:40):
They like how that person makes them feel. That person makes them feel good or they make them feel wanted or desired. And that's, you know, something that they haven't felt potentially for a long time with their primary relationship. So basically it's just about feeling good about themselves. Okay. Like I mentioned a second ago, you know, they honestly would prefer to stay married, but they don't see how connecting with their spouse or their primary relationship is possible, or they don't even know how, you know, then you, then you have to factor in, you know, they see that negative cycle, that's their, that negative cycle of avoidance of emotional distance or fighting or arguing, you know, just the, the pattern that they've had for years, that emotional rut that they've got into. And that's a big determinant and that more than the affair partner being sexy and attractive and desirable, being a learning that is more, more of a deterrent than the affair partner is that negative cycle.
Morgan (09:39):
So they're really trying to move away from pain in towards pleasure. Yeah. Instead of really, totally towards pleasure. It's really away from the pain because they don't know how to connect and have that relationship. They really want is that pretty accurate?
Brad (09:52):
I would say that's very accurate Morgan. They don't have, have a lot of hope that they can get their needs met in their marriage. And so that's really the primary reason. They are unsure if they want to stay together, it's not necessarily because they of how they feel for the affair partner. Obviously that happens. That comes up. That's not really what it's about all the time. And again, you know, most feel if they're not gonna be with or spouse, they don't necessarily want to be with the affair partner either. It's not like I'm leaving for greener pastures. Some do, but I would say most don't, you know, feel that way. Again, like I mentioned, the affair relationship is shockingly full of fighting, arguing a lot of mistrust distrust. What's also shocking is at the they're so easy and quick to betray each other.
Brad (10:40):
Interesting. Yeah. You know, they're often willing to betray each other and I've seen that happen a lot, Morgan, where they get at the affair partner and then they're ready to come back home, you know, be back in their primary relationship, their marriage. And then again, I would just say that individuals who have an affair really want to connect to their spouse, but they don't know how that's really what it's about. And I would even say that about limerence relationships the individuals I've had, who've successfully worked through limerence affairs. And you can learn again more about that in the li episode or the one on 10 types of affairs. And for those of you who are living it and have lived it, you know how tricky that is? I would say they deep down really do want to connect with their spouse, but they just don't know how and the negative cycle and those factors and all that goes into play.
Morgan (11:31):
So Brad, why do they hesitate on totally committing back into the relationship
Brad (11:37):
I'm gonna use clients' words, different clients' words that I've heard, and I'm gonna kind of use their language to describe this. So what would they say on why they hesitate and totally committing back into their relationship? They would say things like, I feel unworthy or unlovable all the time. I haven't felt good enough for a long time. They would also say this, and this is really important. Can I be forgiven? Will I always be on lockdown? I don't think I'll actually be good enough to make you forget is our relationship too tainted now, you know, is even coming back possible. Sometimes they would even say they feel they can't reassure their spouse because of what they're doing, because you know, they're not ending the affair. So it's like, how can I reassure you and come back? You know, there's such a hole in me.
Brad (12:26):
I know the right thing is probably come back to you and, and work on it for our sake. And it's just the right thing to do. But there's such a hole in me, left in me by our negative cycle and our pattern that I don't know if I can really stop this affair. And again, it's not that I wanna be with them because I would choose to ultimately probably not be with them anyway. But that person just makes me feel good about myself. They feel like they can't really reassure their spouse because you know, they're still doing it. It's like promising to never gamble again, as you're pulling the slot machines, you know, like, right. <Laugh> it's like, well, I can't that's, you know, I can't really tell you, give you that full reassurance that you need, that I'm gonna quit gambling. Because I'm pulling the lever right now. You know, I'm pulling the, the lever. I'm not ready to quit yet. Here's what here's what else they would say. They would say things like I don't deserve you anymore because you're making all these changes and growing and I'm a wrecking ball breaking crap up for us.
Morgan (13:27):
Wow. That's some great imagery. Really.
Brad (13:32):
I'm being that wrecking ball because if something had happens, it won't be as big of a hit I don't ask. You know? So, so basically if I'm a wrecking ball and push you away when we don't work out, because I don't have much faith that it will because I've been hurt now you're hurt. You know, I don't have this confidence that we're gonna be okay. So I'm this wrecking ball right now to push you away to actually, because I care about you to actually make it easier on you. So if you can start withdrawing too, you're not gonna get us hurt
Morgan (14:03):
By all this. The disconnect will be easier because I've just been hard on us. And if I just make myself look so ugly and terrible and awful, it'll be easy for you to let me go. And it'll be easy for the, this relationship to dissolve kind of thing.
Brad (14:18):
Absolutely. Another thing I often hear people say is I don't ask for, you know, their help because it's not right for me to ask or expect receiving that help because of what I'm doing. It's hard to tell you my needs and ask you to be there for me cuz of what I'm doing. That's not fair to you. So that's kind of, those are some things that I've heard people say before that causes them to hesitate in, you know, kind of fully recommitting.
Morgan (14:43):
That last one sounds like a lot of guilt and shame. It's like I can't ask for wants and needs cuz I'm so terrible. Oh yeah. That's how they feel.
Brad (14:50):
Well, and here's the thing, you know, to successfully re recover from an affair, it cannot be okay, I did this, I hurt you. I betrayed you. Now I've got to spend the next X number of time, years, months, whatever, kissing your butt, making it up to you like it, that just does not work long term. Like that's sometimes people talk about that. I've heard other people talk about it. It just doesn't work because you know, the end of the, at the end of the day, it's gotta be about both people being able to depend on each other emotionally, you know, people often get into an affair because they don't feel like they can fully count on their spouse to be there for them emotionally because of that negative cycle. If you, you don't have that confidence that your spouse will be there for you, it's just hard to really be vulnerable and let them in your inner world and, and count on each other. And so you have to have both people there for each other
Morgan (15:43):
Emotionally. One of the things often is that once somebody has an affair, they think, man, I screwed up so bad. I gotta really go to you and focus on you. It's wrong to talk about my needs. I see how hurtful hurt you are, you know, and maybe in the immediate crisis and the aftermath, you know, they're right. Maybe it's like, you know, maybe they're right. I just really hurt you right now. And I see your suffering. I can't ask you to be there for me, but to have a successful marriage, you have to really you think and feel and believe that you can, but you only get that through couples therapy. You're not gonna get that on your own, trying to work through this. You're just not gonna get there on your own. Like you need to get good help. You gotta, you need somebody who does emotionally focused couples therapy. Who's got training in that certification in that you want to go out with the best cuz right now your marriage needs that we're available. Okay. So we're coming to the end of our time today, but what do they feel will happen if they stay with their spouse? Cause that's another question that we, that we have
Brad (16:46):
Sure. Yeah. What they think if they, if they're, you know, if we stay together, this is what they're thinking is gonna happen. They're thinking in their head like, is my spouse gonna make me pay for this, you know, forever and ever, is this just gonna be a part of their ammo that they have, cuz they've used ammo before? Is this gonna be new ammo? You know, they're gonna say things like, it feels like I'm just going to have to prove myself to you. And that puts me back where I was in the first place before all this stuff happened. Like you didn't really trust me before. I didn't do anything wrong back then, but we weren't really connecting and feeling close. And so you were always kinda critical of me or upset with me. So it feels like I'm just gonna have to prove myself to you. And that puts me back where I was in the first place. Feel often to say things like if our mirror isn't strong, will I have to go to someone else again to get my emotional needs met. So if we don't repair and patch up what was going on and make us stronger than we were before, am I gonna do this again? And I don't wanna do this again.
Morgan (17:47):
So Brad, at this point, how do they feel about their spouse
Brad (17:51):
Morgan? Often what I hear is that they they'll say things like at the end of the day, spite of all of our problems that we've had in our relationship, you are a good person and there is love there for their spouse. And there is care for their spouse. Sometimes they'll push their spouse away again, you know, like we talked to about the wrecking ball, they'll push their spouse away during the affair so that their spouse won't get hurt so that they can live, try to have a cleaner conscience. You know, like if I push you away, if I start arguments, if I start fights, you know, we're, we're arguing and fighting. Then I can use that as justification to go have an affair. But at the end of the day, they really do believe their spouse is a good person. Them, you know that deep down they know their spouse is, you know, a good person.
Brad (18:33):
They know their spouse is an evil. That's how most people I would say I would and a word to summarize it. That's what I would say. Most people, how they view their spouse. And again, sometimes they'll try to push their spouse away while they're having an affair so that when it gets discovered, if it does, it'll be an easier impact on their spouse and then others will be kind of loving. And that's their way of trying to clean up their guilty conscience. They're trying to manage guilt either way. Like I'll push you away to manage guilt, but you know, if I can be really sweet and loving and endearing while the affair is going and you, you know, then you'll never detect it. Then I won't have to live with guilt cuz you'll never find out. And so they're both trying to manage your guilt and either strategy that they take, but they really do feel like their spouse is a good person.
Brad (19:24):
And you know, and this is what someone once said once is even if I wanted to, I can't stop loving in you overnight. Like if I didn't, if we weren't together, even if I wanted to, I couldn't stop loving you overnight. And that's what someone said when they were still seeing the affair partner. Like there's still a lot of love there. And as you guys can tell, as you're listening to this, this is complicated stuff. This is an easy stuff. And so if you guys need help, we're here go to he and broken trust do, and you can find out more information about working with us. And I appreciate you guys your time and you guys can make it. You can do this.
Morgan (20:00):
Absolutely. You can also give us a call at (918) 281-6060. You can talk to one of our client care coordinators
Speaker 3 (20:47):
As always. This information is for education and entertainment purposes only. I and.