Ep 8: Did They Really End The Affair? Is It Really Over? Why Is It Important To End The Affair The Right Way? How to Cut Off The Affair Parter For Good This Time.

Brad:

An apology and a verbal commitment isn't enough.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad Morgan Robinson. This is a podcast where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship. So if you're wanting to heal your marriage after any of these things, this is the podcast for you. And in episode eight, we're talking about how do you cut off the affair partner. So it's really important obviously, to cut off the affair partner, but one thing we want to remind you is we have free resources to help you through this process. If you go to healing broken trust.com/episode eight, that's episode the number eight, you can download our free resources there to help you through this process. So if you're in this position where you're struggling to cut off the affair partner, you might want to go back to episode four where we talk about how to fall out of love with the affair partner. That's really important. Episode two is also a really good one where we talk about limerence as well. So go back to those. Those can really help you if you are struggling to kind of cut off the affair. So that's really important. But with that, let's get started.

Today we're talking about how to end an affair. It seems clear to many of us that we can't have an affair partner in our marriage relationship in a relationship. But why is it that you can't gloss over this important step of cutting off the affair,

Brad:

Brad? Well, there's several reasons why some of 'em are quite obvious, but many times when people do have an affair, they think an apology is enough. They think that I've apologized, I've made a verbal commitment that should be good enough, and it's really not. And there's several reasons why an apology and a verbal commitment isn't enough. A verbal commitment to your spouse isn't enough. Part of that is because your spouse is terrified that this is going to happen again. I hear constantly from everybody who's been betrayed, they always say, how do I know this won't happen again? And if you don't cut this person out of your life in the right way, you're not creating safety for your marriage to go on for your marriage to heal. And so number, well, there's several different reasons why it's important to cut off the affair partner. I'm just going to go through a couple of them. I think the first is, is it sends the wrong message to your spouse and the affair partner still, he never told me it was over or she never told me it was over. So are they just busy right now or

Morgan:

Yeah, I guess I can just check up with them week.

Brad:

I'll check up with 'em later. Yeah, maybe they're just busy. We didn't talk every day anyway, so they're going to contact you again later.

Morgan:

And that's the affair partner.

Brad:

Yeah, that's the affair partner thinking that you don't send, it sends a message to your spouse. I'm not really serious about rebuilding this. I'm not really serious about building this back. And that's

Morgan:

One foot in, one foot out,

Brad:

And that's a dangerous place to be. So like I said earlier, ending the affair, it's vital to creating safety for the injured spouse, the betrayed spouse. They need to know this won't happen again. And that's a big step towards creating that safety. Also, ending the affair is vital to ending your own ambiguity about if you want to stay or not. Many people I've worked with who have been still had contact with the affair partner, whether they worked with them or didn't work with them, but had contact with them, they stayed in that period of ambiguity. We discussed where they were kind of, I don't know if I want to be here, if I want to be out. And so what happened is, is they really guilt developed and a lot of shame developed. And then they felt like, well, you don't deserve me. I'm not a good person. And that's because they've still kept this relationship up, whether the affair was going on or not, they still had some relationship with the affair partner

And they felt guilty about that and they wanted in their marriage because they felt guilty about it themselves. And so they had this overwhelming guilt, I'm not a good person. You don't deserve me, am not good enough for you. And that's the betrayer saying this. And sometimes that comes from them having an ongoing relationship with the affair partner. Maybe it's morphed into a friendship and even that is not healthy. And so that keeps them as time goes on, just feeling like I'm not good enough. I can't do this. You don't deserve me. And in that's really because in part they haven't ended the affair

Morgan:

And they're saying, you don't deserve me. You don't deserve what I'm doing to you. It's not so much you don't deserve me.

Brad:

No, it's not like that at all. Yeah. It's like it's really coming from a place of shame. I'm a bad person

Morgan:

And I've done so many bad things to you. I've

Brad:

Heard even in their spouse is saying, I forgive you. I want to be with you. It comes from that and that happens. And then the other is obviously you can't rebuild trust. I still see you with this person. I still see them emailing you stuff related to work or this or that. And some of you listening to this are just probably flabbergasted thinking, oh my gosh, this happens. Some people, they try to minimize the affair. And

Morgan:

So because rather it disappear than actually handle it or deal with it.

Brad:

Yeah, actually handle it or deal with it. And so there's things like that. There are things like that that happen that have to be clearly dealt with, and we're going to get into that in a second. But you have to cut off the affair so that you as a couple, you and your spouse can move forward in the healing process, rebuild your relationship. And here's the kicker. The involved spouse must cut off all intimate relations with the affair partner. And occasionally people work with the affair partner and they find themselves, you work with this person. So you have to. And in situations like that where you work with them, it's hard to get away. It's hard to get away. But here's one of the things too though, is if that's the situation you're in, you everything, you must not discuss anything personal with them. And you must do

Morgan:

Everything you can to get away from them if you possibly can.

Brad:

Yeah, I would recommend that everything, but you got to keep it business if that's it. And you need to let your spouse know what's going on, they're going to be asking you probably, but you need to let 'em know. And so with that, Morgan, let's get into

Morgan:

The rules for separating from the affair partner, how to do it basically.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

You want to start with the first one?

Brad:

Yeah. The first is allow the betrayed spouse to participate in the severance. And here's why that's important. Allowing the betrayed spouse to have a say in how it is done will help that person find closure as well. Also because the affair involved secrecy, this moment of truth is refreshing. It's important to remember and reinforce that couples are team.

Brad:

Here's the kicker with this though, is I have seen people, they come into my office and say, I ended the affair, but their spouse didn't participate in the severance. They have no idea.

And this person may have, and here's the thing, when you're in an affair, obviously you're lying. You're being dishonest about what's happening, what's going on, and your spouse doesn't know what to believe. And so anything that you say or do, if you say anything like, oh, I did it already, or I told her this or that or told him this or that, they don't know.

Morgan:

There's no

Brad:

Way them knowing. And the idea with this is one of the things is it creates safety. So you really need to let them participate in this. That doesn't mean that they need to write the email for you. That doesn't mean they need to do it for you. That just means if you're going to do it over the phone, you need to do it yourself. Call them over the phone and use your own words and talk to 'em. Your spouse doesn't need to say, oh, John says it's over, so quit calling him. That's not going to work. That doesn't create any safety for them, and it doesn't send the clear message to the affair partner that it's over. And so you have to do it.

Morgan:

They just might be on the other line maybe listening in or standing there, or they might say, well, you really need to tell 'em like this instead of that, because to me, this sounds more like you're cutting it off

Brad:

Versus

Morgan:

I'm doing it for the kids or whatever.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. The second one is make it a clear absolute severance. And so as, as the person who had the affair, there are plenty of ways or a number of ways to separate from the affair partner. And when you do this, you should not leave any glimmer of hope that you are still open to an affair. You have to show them, look, I'm not interested in you. I love my spouse. I want to be with my spouse. I'm doing this because I want to be there

Morgan:

And what we were doing is wrong and I will not be doing it ever again with you or anyone else.

Brad:

And so you have to have this certainty. I am certain about this, and that's expressed through tone of voice, body language and your word choice, the choice of words that you use. Do

Morgan:

Not call me ever again.

Brad:

Yeah, I am done. Do not call me again. I love my wife, I love my husband. And so it has to be with clear severance. And here's why this is so important, why you have to make this clear, why it has to come from the person who had the affair is many times as affairs grow and mature, these things can last not just months, but sometimes a couple of years, sometimes even longer than that. And people feel like they're genuinely in love with this other person. And you may be done, but that other person isn't done yet. And

Morgan:

The betrayer,

Brad:

Well, the affair partner, they're not done yet. And so you have to let them know, look, we are done. There's no us anymore. There's no future. All the things that we talked about, us leaving our spouses to be with each other, that's not going to happen anymore. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be with you. You have to get to that level, not necessarily being cruel. You want to do, be short of being cruel, but you want to be forceful. You want to let 'em know that you're certain about you being

Morgan:

Done. And that leads us to the third one. Do not be cordial or kind when severing the relationship. This should not be a friendly conversation. You don't want to be cruel, but we believe the colder and more absolute the better. In fact, it's cruel to the fair partner if there's even a glimmer of hope that this will ever happen again. So more importantly, it's crucial. Obviously, more importantly, it's crucial to the betrayed spouse, your spouse. So they're not led to believe that unfaithfulness will occur at any point in the future. So yeah, you don't want to be like, well, I don't want to hurt your feelings and I don't want you to feel bad, so good luck to you. No, I'm sorry. This is not ever happening again, right? So don't call me.

Brad:

Yeah. And yeah, it needs to be very, very black and white. I'm done to the point, you're not kind. You're not friendly when you do this. And if you have to work with a person, maybe you're professional, but you're not kind and friendly. You're not sitting around the water cooler anymore. You're not going on lunch breaks,

Morgan:

Obviously, right? You're changing habits. Changing patterns too.

Brad:

Yeah. You're not sending any mixed signals. Sometimes people when just being kind, sometimes that can be interpreted as being flirty or that you have an interest. And so you have to be really, really careful. You're not just being kind that can send the message. I'm still open to you that can send the message of being flirty, that kind of thing. I'm interested. You can't do that. Now when you end this, the fourth part of this is when you do this, you're doing it for love. It's important not to tell the affair partner. The relationship is ending. Our affair is ending for the kids

Brad:

Because of my kids or because I want them to grow up with mom and dad together or because of the commitment you made or out of duty to the family, things like that. Instead, it needs to be because you are emphasizing the love you feel for your spouse,

Morgan:

Right? So definitely it's about you and your spouse that you love your spouse, you want to reconnect with your spouse and that there's no room at all for them in any of that. It's not because they're making me or anything

Brad:

Like that. And also you could emphasize that, look, this was a complete and total mistake. Also using specific language such as Never contact me again. I do not want to talk to you, or I do not want any sort of intimate relationship with you ever again. Things like that, phrases like that. You never contact me again. I don't want to talk to you again. I don't want any sort of intimate relationship or contact,

Brad:

Things Like that. It sends a clear message that I am done

Morgan:

And repeat yourself. You have to stand your ground. Sometimes they might try to remind you of what this or that send you a text or something, got to hold your ground there and you've got to include your spouse. So if they ever did contact you again, maybe next week or next month, next year, whatever, you're completely open and honest. We've talked about that being very honest and forthright.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right. I would say, I don't know what the exact percentages are, but I would say there is a good chance that the affair partner is going to contact you again after you try this. And it's more testing for them. This was an affair as well. This was, or a relationship as well. And maybe they loved you, and so there's a good chance that they're going to try to contact you again. If that happens, you have to let your spouse know about it. Because what will happen is your spouse is probably going to find out, and if you don't tell 'em you're going to be in deeper water and the walls are going to go up, it's going to be harder to rebuild. This going to be less trust, transparency and honesty are the best, especially with this.

Morgan:

So it's like doing the opposite of what you're doing in the secrecy of,

Brad:

Oh yeah, that's a great way to look at it. You're really doing the opposite of how you were in the affair. In the affair. You were very secretive. You were very conniving. You were very dishonest. There was no transparency. Now that you're in a rebuilding phase, you have to be transparent. You have to shine light in the darkness. You have to be honest. You have to expose these secrets that rebuilds this. Now, part of this though is this other person needs to get it. No, in certain terms, you are done. And it has to come from a place of I love my wife. I am with this person. I love my husband. I am choosing to be with him. You are a mistake. And that's where it needs to come from. And here's the other thing I want to emphasize. This is at some point there is a good chance that the affair partner is going to try to make contact. Again, be transparent, be honest. It may cause a ripple effect just because your spouse is going to feel like, gosh, this person's really obsessed with my spouse. But either way, they're probably going to find out and it's going to help rebuild trust because you're bringing that information to them. They're going to see that you're trying, that. You're being honest and transparent. And so that's really important.

Morgan:

And it's just very important to also realize sometimes the out affair partner does seek you out. Sometimes they do have a part to play in this whole affair, and

Brad:

Yeah, they do. And let me share a story. Morgan,

We had a couple by the time they came in, maybe it was about 18 months into the affair, and this was somebody who had moved out, separated, moved out back in several times when I had worked with them, they had gotten to a place where the affair was ended, the marriage was being rebuilt. They both felt like they were really moving better, and the husband worked with her, but I was able to only see her briefly, and he was able to, he had a job where he could do certain things and work out of the office. And one day he had

Morgan:

Work out of the office, office,

Brad:

Home office. He was able to work from

Morgan:

Home.

Brad:

And what I meant to say is he wasn't always in the office, so he was able to work from home. He was doing that. And one day he had to go into the office and he saw this woman and just kind of made eye contact with her, just saw her and then he's back into it again. And then they spent 18 months of trying to get to this place of ending it. And just seeing her one time caused him to

Morgan:

Flip a switch and go back,

Brad:

Flip a switch and go back. Oh, man. And we talked about Limerence before, and I'll just briefly describe it this way. Limerence is, it's kind of romantic love, but more of an addiction to a person where they're like an object and it's an obsession. And that's kind of how he felt about this woman. And he was trying to end. It did really well. The marriage was working moving forward. They were growing together. Trust was being rebuilt. He encounters this, and then they're back into that whole cat and mouse scam again, and it's really devastating. So you have to take this seriously.

Brad:

You don't know where you think you might be. Look, you think you're strong enough to do this, but you're probably not really strong. You weren't strong enough to keep an affair from happening the first time. I know right now this is an emotional place for you. There's a lot of guilt as the betrayer, but you got to really take this seriously. You can't minimize this, and you've got to be very, very careful, and you can't underestimate just where that other person's at. So you have to take this seriously that I've got to end this. I've got to have clear boundaries. I've got to know in certain terms, let them know from my heart that I want to be with my spouse because I love them and I do not want to be with you. You are a mistake.

Morgan:

And it's kind of like going back just a tad bit about limerence. It's like an addiction, very much like an alcoholic. You can't just have one beer all of a sudden that takes you back to your addiction. So it's very important to realize that some, maybe you may have to just cut it off completely depends on you. But the fifth one, right? That's what we're on.

Brad:

Yeah, go ahead, Morgan.

Morgan:

It's don't look back. So basically don't look back. It's important to make a clean break. Sympathizing with the affair partner, trying to soften the significance of the conversation or implying any possibility of a future friendship confuses the affair partner, and it will open the door to more trouble. If your spouse is involved in helping you cut this off, they're going to hear this tone of voice. They're going to hear what you're saying. They're going to hear how you're

Brad:

Saying. They're going to hear what we're telling you to do,

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So they're going to hold you to it.

Morgan:

And that's good because it's helpful. It's going to help you. It's going to help your relationship. It's going to really ultimately do what's best for you in the future. And it's natural for a previously involved spouse to want to check up on the affair partner. But it's important to resist the temptation because a lot of times these relationships, they weren't just fly by night. I mean, these are things that happen over a long period of time sometimes, and so sometimes you want to check up on that person.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, yeah, everybody's curious. You're curious about people that you dated in the past and things like that, but here's the kicker. You had an affair with this Person.

Brad:

Yeah, you had an affair with this person. This is, if you're listening to this and you're working through this, you know how this can destroy your marriage very, very quickly. You don't look back. Block this person on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, other social media. Get this person completely out of your life. It's worth it. Yeah, it's not worth it, and you don't know what it can do. That person again, but it's hurting your spouse as well. You don't know if it's going to trigger something in you where you want to go be with that person again, but it's also not helping rebuild trust for your spouse. The next principle is there should be complete openness and honesty from now on. There should be no more secrecy between the two spouses, between you and your spouse as the betrayer. You must decide to volunteer any communication that may happen between you and your affair partner before being asked to do so.

Morgan:

Oh, that's

Brad:

Key. Yeah, that's really important. That includes text messages, face-to-face interaction, emails or anything else. It is important to avoid any communication with your affair partner, but if or when communication inevitably happens, the betrayer must be quick to share it with his or her spouse. Do not underestimate how helpful this will be if you do this. This will quickly help you guys rebuild things, and so don't underestimate how helpful that can be.

Morgan:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Just being completely open and honest, man, it goes so far, so far. So yes, definitely volunteer that information before you're asked. But what about the next one? Right? We talked about maintaining a safe place, Brad, what is that? How do you maintain a safe place?

Brad:

Well, this is where the hurting spouse, the spouse, he's been betrayed, enters the process. It is very important for betrayed spouses to create an environment that encourages complete honesty. This means that when the spouse comes to them and tells them about communication with the affair partner

Brad:

It's crucial to maintain composure. So as a spouse who's been betrayed, you have to help them feel safe to talk about this because most betrayers don't want to talk about this because they feel like they already feel guilty enough and they don't want to make you hurt anymore.

Brad:

So if you are overreacting, you may be reacting, but your spouse will feel like you're overreacting. This is hurting you. I don't see the point of answering these questions. It's just making it worse. You have to help them feel safe in a sense to be able to talk to you

Morgan:

So that when or if they do get communication from a fair partner, that they know that if they're going to come to you, that you're going to not blow up. You're going to receive it with grace. You may not feel comfortable, but thanking them. Hey, thanks for being open. Thanks for being honest. I appreciate you coming and telling me this. It makes me feel a lot more secure. It makes me feel like you we're really going to make it

And you really can make it, and you really will if you are open and honest and cut that person off. And however they ended up with that story you just told about the guy who went back to work after working from home and just one look at that person kind of sent 'em back to their addiction. I mean, if he were to have just turned around, maybe even got out of there as soon as he could and went home to his wife and said, Hey, I accidentally looked at her. We were in the hallway. This happened, this happened. And your spouse can be that source of healing and can be a safe place.

Brad:

And one of the things with this is those kinds of things grow because they're secret. It just adds fuel to the fire. But one of the things to realize is this is a necessary step that has to be done. You have to cut off this person and the betrayer has to do it. It's best if the betrayed spouse is a part of this process. They're able to listen in and it's best if you say, I'm doing it out of love. You're not being kind or cordial.

Brad:

You're being short of being cruel. You're letting them know you were a mistake. I love my wife. I love my husband. I'm going to be with them. You are a mistake. I don't want to talk to you again.

Morgan:

Right? What we did was wrong

Brad:

And you're done. There's no need to reminisce about the past. Say we had good times, things like that. You're not doing yourself any favors. In fact, what you're doing is you're leaving the door open that you're open,

Morgan:

And what we're really doing here, what we need to do is we need to break the pattern of secrecy and lies. We take a giant step in the direction of healing and turn towards your spouse because they're really going to help you. And if you are the betrayed spouse, you got to help your spouse feel comfortable. It's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's painful, but it's definitely, I mean, when your spouse is coming and turning and doing the opposite and being honest with you, it's really a step in the right direction and healing will come and the pain will subside over time, you say. Yeah,

Brad:

It'll get better. Thanks for listening to Healing Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It's not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 9: 6 Ground Rules for Discussing Infidelity

Brad:

You're dealing with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson. This podcast is where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This podcast is for you. This episode, episode nine is where we talk about ground rules for talking about the affair. And just as a reminder, go to healing broken trust.com/episode nine to download your free resources. Again, that's healing broken trust.com/episode nine. That's the number nine. Download your free resources and walk through those resources as you listen to these episodes. You'll find it's very, very helpful. So let's get started. So Brad, what are we talking about today?

Brad:

Well, today we're going to talk about really the ground rules of how to talk about an affair. We've gotten a lot of emails at people asking basically that question. We're having trouble in this area, so we want to give you guys listening ground rules on how to talk about an affair to really make this the most productive time because how you talk about it really sets the stage of your affair recovery process. And so ground rule number one is just that how the affair is discussed, it's more important than really what you talk

Brad:

About.

Brad:

And this needs to be a process where the discussions are handled in a way where both spouses feel respected and Morgan, so many people talk about an affair and it becomes so in a way counterproductive because there's arguing and fighting about it and people don't really get the healing that they need or they don't heal the way they need to. So what we're talking about is the ground rules and really that main idea how we talk about this, it's so important because it's really even more important than what is said if it's done in a way with caring, compassion, honesty. Honesty is really important. If we have that, it's really going to help us in their fair recovery

Morgan:

Process a lot more successful. And how you talk about it, we'll also shape what is said. I mean if you are just haphazardly talking about it and you just talk forever and ever and ever, it's going to be a lot more difficult to control your emotions. And then in turn, you're going to say a lot of things that are hurtful.

Brad:

And so we're going to have some ground rules. So number one is just knowing this is an important piece of the process and what we say isn't really as important as how we talk about it.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Exactly. And the reason I say it needs to be done in a way that's respectful with compassion is for the injured spouse, we need the betrayer to become the healer for us. And if they feel like this isn't helpful, they're not going to be honest and they're not going to share. And this needs to be productive.

Morgan:

And so it's really important to set aside intentional time to talk about the affair. And that's really ground rule number two, setting aside that time is so important. In the beginning you'll find that you want to talk for hours, but as the process of healing moves forward, you may find that the longer you talk about it in any given period, your conversations begin to be less and less productive.

Brad:

You should schedule time to talk about this because this is one of those things in life, just like exercise or dieting, where if you're not intentional about it, you're probably not going to do it as the betrayer. You're just going to want to avoid it.

Morgan:

Well, you've said at certain points cut it off because it'll be much more productive that

Brad:

Way. And I'm going to get into that later more specifically. But the idea with this is sitting aside, time gives you a break from dealing with the affair and in the beginning of the process of a fair recovery, what you're doing, most people find themselves talking about it for hours as time goes on, especially in the first weeks in the beginning. But as time goes on, people find themselves, we need a break from this. We still got lives to live lead. We still have things that we got to do. We just want to enjoy each other's company and have fun. And so setting aside time where specifically discuss this.

Morgan:

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes those intrusive thoughts that happen with the betrayed spouse, it can be very, very difficult. They can get into this cycle of asking the same question, same question, and then feeling like they're not getting anywhere. So it's kind of difficult if you like something you've said, something I've heard you say is that after 30 minutes, those conversations become kind of unproductive. Is

Brad:

That correct? Yeah. Well, as you go on longer it can be unproductive.

And so the next idea or the next ground rule is that the spouse who had the affair really needs to have what's called a purge session or a vomit session. You really need to get it out. You need to get all the details out, you need to get everything out. And the sooner this comes out, the better. It's always better if the betrayer discloses information rather than an affair partner tells the spouse or they'd stumble upon it. It's always better if that person says, Hey, I had an affair. This is what happened. And gives you the details of it. What's not helpful though is when the spouse who has been betrayed has to be a detective and has to really look for answers. They feel like they're getting stuck. They have to be a detective. They have to look for answers. They have to kind of hunt, they have to snoop around. You're not doing well in the air recovery process if that's happening. And part of that is the injured spouse has such a need to know, and here's what you're doing by talking about this, is you're giving them knowledge that is really healing for them.

It really helps them. I know when I was betrayed in the past, before I married my wife, completely different person. But whenever I had a chance to talk to somebody about this, who knew the other person and that can shine some light on to help me understand this betrayal better, that was the only time I found relief. Many times that's what this is like for people is the only time they find relief is when this is actually being discussed and they feel like they're getting answers about this. And so

Morgan:

It's a lot easier to build trust that way too, if you're being outright honest and open and just very transparent. Yeah,

Brad:

You're exactly right, Morgan, when you're 100% honest, you're being 100% transparent. I have nothing to hide. Here's what I've been doing this

Morgan:

You I volunteering

Brad:

Information and you're willing to do this.

It's not like pulling teeth or you're forced to do this, but you're willing to do it. When you have that, it's a much smoother healing process. This isn't an easy process, but it's much smoother. And so the spouse that's been betrayed, they need to know that's when they find relief. But part of this though is people don't want to really share or they don't want to purge or vomit because they feel like they're actually doing more damage when they do that. But it's like cough medicine. Sure, cough medicine tastes horrible, but it actually makes you feel

Morgan:

Better. Absolutely. And you may notice that the betrayed spouse asks the same questions over and over and it may be a cue that you're not giving enough detail. It's very normal for the betrayed spouse to ask questions, the same questions over and over. But it may be that they're just trying to process it and they learn something new each time. They may hear something a little differently or they may actually, something may sink in the third time that they hear it. But it may also be that cue that you need to give a little more detail. Maybe you need to give a little more information, try not to hold back and try to just be very patient with that because it's going to be a process.

Brad:

And Morgan, before we go on onto the next one, I wanted to just throw this in there. Somebody this last week said, look, I already know the worst part of this. You cheated on me. Nothing else you're going to tell me is worse, as bad as that. And so it's just a lot of the people who have affairs who cheat because they don't want to make matters worse, they don't want to see their spouse hurting. They will basically suppress information and not want to say anything. And so what happens is they're not talking, they're not sharing

Morgan:

That kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Alright, and we're talking about key important steps. Actually we're on the fourth step. They need to volunteer information and the more you volunteer on your own and the less your spouse has to dig for it and dig for it, the better you are in the process of healing. So what would you say is the next one, Brad?

Brad:

Well, the fifth ground rule or one of the ground rules is if the injured spouse attacks the betrayer, the less likely the betrayer is going to be to participate, the less willing they are to participate. And so what happens is, is this gravely injures the couple's ability to recover and that defensive behavior that they have keeps 'em in a posture of self-protection instead of a healing posture, instead of a nurturing, healing, supportive role, they're feeling attacked and they're feeling defensive. They're focused on their own needs. Having an affair is obviously a very, very, very selfish act, very selfish behavior. But what people don't understand is that these people, when they're feeling defensive, they're not in a healing posture, they're still thinking of themselves,

Morgan:

Right? It's like that fight or flight mode where if they're being attacked, the only thing their body knows to do or their mind has to do is I've got to get away from this. I've got to get away from being

Brad:

Attacked. The spouse who had the affair, you have to be honest, you have to be transparent, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. But the spouse who's been betrayed, this doesn't necessarily automatically give you the right to become emotionally abusive or verbally abusive either.

Morgan:

And it's probably very hard not to be.

Brad:

Yeah, it's very hard not to be, and you feel like this is kind of your divine right. You cheated on me, I get to treat you however I want to. An attitude like that is only going to keep you stuck in the recovery process. And let me just say this in the beginning, it's very hard not to feel a sense of entitlement and not just in the beginning, it could be for several months, but having a sense of entitlement, you owe me that, especially when it comes to talking about this. Those are things that you have to work through. But if you have this, you betrayed me, now you have to walk the line, walk the line, walk on eggshells. That long term does not work out into very good marriage. That works short term when recovering from an affair because it helps, but it's not really the way to rebuild a marriage either.

Morgan:

And that also can be helpful when if you start to find yourself going into that process, into that negative cycle, that 30 minutes, keeping it short, will help you to not start becoming that critical, that angry person.

Brad:

Would you say it's the idea of open limitations? You can bring up a question really at any time as time goes on, and there's still the need to talk about this with open limitations. You're able to talk about it at any time, but no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. Really any question, and we're going to talk about in a minute, the types of questions you don't want to get into and ask. And it's really anything that makes you more obsessive, like sexual details or love letters or correspondence of that type. Just seeing I love you, that makes it worse. But what I'm trying to say is if you find yourself talking about this and it's not being productive, you feel like you're getting angry and heated, there is the need to talk about it. But how we talk about it's so important. So

Brad:

If

Brad:

You find yourself really in the first three minutes not getting anywhere talking about this, you're better off taking a break for at least 20 minutes because again, how you talk about it's so much more important than what you talk about. And the reason I say take a break for 20 minutes is our heart rate gets around a hundred beats per minute. We enter that fight or flight mode, and what happens is blood is leaving our brain, it's flowing to our feet, and we're no longer thinking objectively. We're no longer being really rational. And that's when you're more likely to have cases of domestic violence or people punching holes in the wall or just doing whatever, just doing really stupid stuff.

Morgan:

That physiological response,

Brad:

You have a physiological response. And so if you find yourself getting there, what you can do to make this time more productive is take a 20 minute break. You can turn off the lights in the house, turn down the temperature in the house, drink something cold, and doing those things, breathe deeply from your stomach. Yeah, definitely breathing deeply, taking deep breaths like that just in and out, doing at least six deep breaths a minute.

Morgan:

And that's with your

Brad:

Stomach or 10 deep breaths a minute breathing from your stomach area. And all this does is it helps you cool your body down, helps you lower your heart rate. So this becomes more productive. We're dealing with trauma and when we have trauma, heart rate rises quicker. Things are more likely just to kind of snap. Things are more likely to kind of get out of hand. And so if we follow these steps that I'm outlining, it's going to be much more productive. And as the injured spouse, that's going to help you heal much quicker because the betrayer isn't going to think, okay, they're crazy or Why talk about this? You're letting me know when I tell you new

Morgan:

Information.

Brad:

You're going to snap, you're going to snap. And I shouldn't tell you, and this is what you need to know as the betrayer is, the more they know about this, the better they're going to feel and they're actually getting better. Kind of as we said earlier, it's like cough medicine, it tastes horrible and you have to pinch your nose and tilt your head back and you don't want to really do it. But in the couples who do this or the couples who do the best, and that's why we're telling you to do this,

Morgan:

Right? It's like the healing medicine. You're just talking about it. It's

Brad:

Painful and there's not a better way. There's really not a better way. And so

Morgan:

It's worth it.

Brad:

So these are the ground rules. And so that's kind of where we're at.

Morgan:

Okay, so now we're going to talk about,

Brad:

We're talking about ground rule six.

Morgan:

That's right. Ground rule six, which is basically talk about the affair, talk about what's gone on with compassion and care. One major reason we want to keep the discussions to a shorter length of time. It's because it can become very difficult to keep the conversations productive and kind. This goes back to how it's talked about, but we need to keep our cool the best we can, especially as the betrayer when discussing such heed information or really both betrayed and the betrayer. This doesn't mean we don't have bad moments though

Brad:

That's

Morgan:

Expected.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right with the trauma aspect that we've talked about the last several weeks, there is going to be people snapping. And what I mean by snapping people getting upset easily, you have the exaggerated startle response. You're going to be,

Morgan:

Those nerves are

Brad:

Exposed. Yeah, your nerves, your anxiety, your heart rate increasing, people are going to be upset talking about this. That's not a reason not to talk about it either,

But it needs to be done in a way, the best possible way where people feel safe, people feel secure, that kind of thing. And so part of this, us talking about it with care and compassion is the injured spouse. What I tell people to do in my office is as you talk about this, really journal your anger on the paper journal, invent your feelings on the paper, and it's just as effective as really talking to somebody about it. You talk to somebody, they're going to be able to give you ideas and feedback. You're not going to get that when you journal or write down your feelings about this. But if you turn, like I've mentioned repeatedly throughout our broadcast today, if you turn and direct your anger towards your spouse in this, they're not going to really want to be there to help you no matter how much shame or guilt they feel, their guilt and shame is actually going to keep them from talking to you about it more because they're like, gosh, I've hurt them so bad and I see them getting angry and upset and

Morgan:

I already feel bad.

Brad:

I already feel bad about it. I don't want to make them feel worse. I'm only going to feel worse,

Morgan:

And I feel worse now because I'm making them feel bad.

Brad:

And so what you need to do is really journal about this. And what I mean by journal is just take out a pen, take out sheet of paper or journal book or a diary. Write in that your emotions, your feelings. Write letters to the affair partner. Write letters to your spouse.

Morgan:

Don't send them.

Brad:

Yeah, do not send these letters and take it outside and burn it. Get it all out. Get it all out of your system. Put it all on paper. You're only writing for yourself. It's nothing that your counselor needs to see. It's nothing that your spouse needs to see anybody else needs to see. You can write prayers to God, you can write whatever you want. But the thing is, the process of writing has the same effect on you psychologically as verbally telling somebody that. And so when you first start this though, there is a side effect. You're probably going to be sad for a couple hours and you're probably going to be angry after you do it for a couple hours, maybe even a couple of days. It just kind of depends, but it's just like cough medicine. It helps you deal with it. And like we talked about when we were talking about trauma, you have to deal with this.

Avoiding it is only going to keep you there. And so journaling about this, writing about it, putting it on paper, what that's helping you do is you're getting it out of your mind. You're getting it on paper, you're not thinking about it as much, but it also, it's going to help make these talks that you guys have much more productive because you're not channeling your anger and these negative emotions onto your spouse who's betrayed you. And they're going to feel like, okay, I can talk about this. We can talk about this more. I'm not saying that you should not tell your spouse, I'm really having a bad day. I really feel down. I'm not saying that you should feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your spouse, either one of you, but if we just kind of always unload on them and verbally bash them, and in some cases verbally abuse our spouse, they have no incentive because they feel like they're only doing more damage by talking about this with you.

But if you journal it on paper, put it on paper, it's going to help you find peace, it's going to help you find relief, it's going to help you find really just that peace of mind and it's going to help you have more care and compassion. It's going to make this a much smoother process. So you got to channel this stuff on the paper, and then what you can do is just take it outside and burn it and you can watch it go. It's just going to bring more closure and more peace. And that's something that you're going to have to do several times. It's not a one-time event, but it's going to be something that you do repeatedly throughout the process for the next several months moving forward. But it's going to bring you healing. And the more you do that, the people who do that the most, Morgan, are the ones who get the best care, who get the most out of counseling.

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. I can see that in my own experience. I've found that journaling is very, very helpful. And it's funny that you say that you'll be upset or angry for a few days and you don't even realize it sometimes that, gosh, yeah, I'm in a real poor mood and it makes sense. I just journaled out on this

Brad:

Book, all these feelings. It is bringing things up to the surface, but that's not a reason, in my opinion, that's not a strong enough reason to not do it

Morgan:

Right. It's a good thing because you're purging, you're getting it out.

Brad:

Well, you're getting it out, you're with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

Absolutely. And so basically, journal, journal, journal, the people who do that recover the best. It's going to keep you from getting riled up about this.

Morgan:

Absolutely. And the thing that Brad was talking about with limiting that time that you talk with each other about certain issues, especially if you find yourself going off into getting upset, but as you journal, you can write down the questions or comments, write them down, save them for that time, think them through a little bit because then when that limited time that you have that you've placed that limit, you've placed on your conversations, you're really going to have a more productive conversation. You're really going to have more of your questions answered probably in a more productive way because you've thought them through, you've really written them out and kind of considered, what do I really need to know? What do I really want to know? And then you're able to ask it in a way that's easy for them to answer and for you to follow up and ask further questions to get real answers. So that's a good thing to remember there too.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 10: Why People Cheat, What Makes A Cheater?, What Leads To Infidelity? Why Did This Happen To You?

Brad:

Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else. I'm no longer communicating with you because this negative cycle has beat me up where I'm not asking for my wants and needs.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs and fidelity trust and cheating in your relationship. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. We're on episode 10. We're talking about why do people cheat, why do they cheat? And I think that this one is pretty straightforward. But before we get started, I want to remind you to go to healing broken trust.com/episode 10. That's healing broken trust.com/episode, the number 10, episode 10, and download those free resources that will really help you to walk through this process to truly heal from what you're going through right now. So let's jump into episode 10 and learn why people cheat on our show. We've talked about the different types of affairs, but there is still this looming question of why do people cheat? So Brad, you want to begin to answer this question for our listeners?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, people cheat. There's three primary reasons why people cheat. The first two are not that common, and the third is extremely common. The first reason is sometimes people cheat because they're sex addicts. They have a compulsive tendency to act out. And like all addictions, it's negative impact on the addict and on family members increases as the disorder progresses. And what I mean by that, as people get deeper into this, it gets worse and worse over time. The addict usually has to intensify the addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And let me explain that. When somebody has an addiction, it doesn't satisfy what you start out doing in the beginning, typically doesn't satisfy those urges. So somebody can start with pornography and self-pleasure. A lot of people can stay there who are addicts, but most people will begin to escalate into other things where they start acting out with other people, they start going to prostitutes, they start seeing escorts, they start acting it out. And so over time, the addict will intensify their addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And that's where some affairs come from.

Morgan:

So that fantasy must then become a reality to further satisfy that addiction.

Brad:

And if you think about it, they've been basically viewing pornography. They've been viewing and breaking down mental barriers that most people have to an affair.

Brad:

They're

Brad:

Actually mentally rehearsing an affair when they're viewing pornography. Another thing that's going on is the other type of people who have affairs are the philanders. And I would say that's more an attitude than anything else. And this attitude says there may be something, this attitude of flander, they believe that cheating is okay for them to do. It's something that guys or girls do, and it's more of a rationalization. Okay, just as long as you don't get caught. Sometimes this attitude says there's no way a man or woman is supposed to be monogamous.

Morgan:

It's a myth, right?

Brad:

Yeah, it's a myth. You can't be monogamous,

Morgan:

Which is not true. It's not accurate at all. But they believe that.

Brad:

And this kind of attitude can lead to serial cheating and very flirting behavior, especially when their spouse isn't around. The attitude of the philander says there is nothing wrong with it. They may rationalize what they're doing or saying to themselves, as long as I'm not having sex with them or intercourse with them, it's okay. So kissing is okay. Spending time with them is okay. Sharing intimate parts of my life is okay because I'm not doing X, Y, or Z with them. And of course, they may even believe sex is okay too. Just don't get caught. And I've had different people tell me before that they viewed having an affair as a rite of passage. And it's something that men do as a part of growing up, as a part of maturing their certain

Morgan:

Rites of passages,

Brad:

Certain rites of passage.

Morgan:

And that's what we see in TV and movies all the time. Oh, you're a virgin. That's supposed to be some kind of bad thing.

Brad:

But there's people like that. There's attitudes that affect someone to have an affair, and we're going to get into that in a little bit later. But most individuals I work with, I would describe them as someone who's burnt out in their marriage.

Morgan:

So that's the third category.

Brad:

That's the third category.

Morgan:

Most people fit into the third

Brad:

Category, and we're going to spend most of our time talking about that. But these are people who are burnt out and there are attitudes that affect somebody having an affair. And there's those outside influences, family and friends. Have they had an affair? Have your mom and dad had an affair? If they have, you're more likely to have an affair yourself or coworkers cheating. What are coworkers attitudes about infidelity? What was your family's attitude about infidelity, your friend's attitudes about infidelity and pornography? Like we mentioned earlier, when you're viewing pornography, you are mentally rehearsing an affair. Those are outside influences that affect somebody, make it easier for somebody to cheat. Romance novels. Reading that, you're also mentally rehearsing having an affair. A lot of our entertainment, a lot of movies, a lot of different cultural things that we have, they really do not support the idea of monogamy. And they make infidelity attractive. They make it funny, they make it make it okay, a normal part

Morgan:

Of. So society is what they're telling us, which is not true

Brad:

When you're exactly right about that. So those are attitudes. Those are cultural things. Those are outside influences that make it, that can be associated with family, friends, coworkers, viewing pornography, reading, romance novels or entertainment. Even celebrity culture, it makes it easier for somebody to cheat.

I would even say even certain types of jobs make it easier for people to cheat, especially if you travel for a living, you're in certain professions where it's just easier to cheat. And so affairs really start Morgan here, and I want to get into the root of why people cheat. It really starts with the negative cycle that a couple is in. Most couples I would say are not happy if they're having an affair. The exception with that may be the philanders or the sex addicts. I would say almost everybody else, if they're in this burnt out category, they're not happily married. If they're cheating, I wouldn't classify that as a good marriage. And let me explain the negative cycles, because this is where infidelity starts. There are three kinds of negative cycles. There are the first kinds, the most common kind, and this is a negative cycle where the person who's having the affair is a distancer. They are somebody who is more withdrawn, not very emotionally expressive, typically in the relationship. They avoid. They avoid, and they may not start that way in the relationship though they may get to that place because they feel like they don't matter to their spouse.

Morgan:

They don't know how to ask for wants and needs.

Brad:

They don't know how to get. And so they may get to that point with their spouse. So they may not start that at that place of being a er. They may start at a place of being a pursuer

And a pursuer, and you can go through and listen to our recordings on that. We've talked about that before. So go listen to that. Who are pursuers and who are distancers. But pursuers are the ones who fear being abandoned, fear, rejection. They want to be close. And if they don't get it, they'll escalate their attempts for attention and connection into things like blaming, criticizing, demanding, and distancers are people who will kind of shut down emotionally. They will shut down because they don't think engaging with somebody who's upset with them is going to be that productive. And so that's where negative cycles typically start. And that's the most basic kind. And the person who cheats is a distancer. They're the one distancing from connection

Morgan:

To the relationship and their spouse, right?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

They're more invested in the affair or other things than they are in the relationship at that point, wouldn't you say? Or is that kind of later on?

Brad:

That's later on. But that's true. But that would happen later on. They become more interested in that for right now before the affair even starts. And you can have a pursuer who becomes a distancer. You can have a pursuer who also gets burnt out because they don't feel like they're getting through and they start shutting down emotionally, and then they have their own affairs. So that's where affairs start is that you have a negative cycle. Couples get into, and we've talked about how to get out of negative cycles, we've discussed that. Go listen to that. And so that's where a fair start. Morgan and every relationship has a negative cycle. And that first one, that's the pursuer. Distancer is the most common type of negative cycle. Then there's a negative cycle where couples are basically fighting all the time.

Morgan:

So they're pursuing, pursuing attack. Attack.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, the one who's been distancing feels like they're getting attacked by the pursuer because the pursuer is like, I'm not getting through to you. So they're

Morgan:

Blaming,

Brad:

Criticizing, demanding. It escalates. Then the distancer feels like they're getting their back against the wall, so they'll attack back. But they're primarily a distancer, and so they're just attacking back,

Morgan:

Can't put baby in a corner, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And they may be getting resentful as well. And so that's the second type. Then the third type is really what I would consider a void avoid. And these can be looked at as two different types of situations, but basically what they do is they avoid each other and they can avoid each other. They don't like conflict, they don't like stirring things up. And that can be both of them. So the pursuer, even though they want that connection, they're not really criticizing or blaming because they don't like conflict. So they're stuffing what their feelings are.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

Then the er, they're stuffing what their feelings are and what's going on with them.

Morgan:

And sometimes they think, oh, everything's okay. There's no argument.

Brad:

Well, exactly. They think they're in a strong marriage. And I got to tell you, a lot of people have affairs in this kind of situation

Morgan:

Where one pushing stuffing and they're really not being honest about how they feel.

Brad:

Well, even in the avoid, avoid situation, a lot of people have affairs in that. And then the other type of avoid, avoid affair is an affair where the person who was the original pursuer gets burned out, like I mentioned a moment ago, and they're avoiding, they're distancing, and you have the ER as well. And sometimes the one who was the original pursuer, like I said, they'll get burned out and they'll distance. Then the one who was the original ER will see, oh my gosh, they're pulling away from me. I don't like this much distance between us. Then they can become the pursuer.

Morgan:

So they sort of switch roles.

Brad:

Yeah, they'll switch roles. But basically I'm saying all that to say, well not spend a lot of time on that just to say this. That's where fares start. They start with a negative cycle because a couple does not feel close and people can say they have a good marriage and still have an affair. And I would say for the most part, that's probably hogwash unless there was a sex addiction affair or a flander is affair. And the people who are most likely to say that were probably people who were the avoid, avoid. Well, we never fought,

Morgan:

So we must have had a good relationship, but they weren't close to each other emotionally, they just assumed all relationships were like that. Typically,

Brad:

Yeah, we're good because we don't fight. They may have good communication skills, but they're not really talking about anything

Morgan:

Of significance, of

Brad:

Significance, emotional, their relationship and their feelings. They may be great at communicating about picking up the kids and planning their retirement and things like that, but not what's going on between them as a couple,

Morgan:

That deep emotional intimacy.

Brad:

And so affairs start with the negative cycle. Morgan, this leads into a progression of things that happen. And this doesn't necessarily happen in any chronological order necessarily. These things that I'm discussing, negative cycles create the affairs. Affairs start with a negative cycle, and that leads to the person who's having the affair, who ends up having the affair, feeling like they're burned out, they're tired, they feel beat up by the negative cycle, they end up feeling like they're not good enough for their spouse and because they're tired, because they're burned out, because they're beat up by the negative cycle. They don't ask for their wants and needs.

Morgan:

And I think it's very interesting to point out that you say they're beat up by their negative cycle. A lot of people think well beat up by my spouse, but no, it's beat up by that negative cycle. It's what's happening between you that's wearing you out.

Brad:

What's happening between you that's wearing you out's that negative cycle. And so the spouse will end up not asking for wants and needs. They stop reaching out, they stop communicating. And what happens is resentment develops. Sometimes they're really angry with their spouse, just resentment develops. And that's really important because from there they start feeling alone. They start feeling sad and depressed, they start feeling numb. And what's really happening, Morgan, is they're caring less about their marriage or their relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And so there's these different things that happen because people get beat up by the negative cycle, resentment develops, start feeling alone, start feeling sad and depressed, start feeling numb, and they're starting to care less about maintaining that marriage, maintaining that relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And the other thing that can happen is they're closed off to their spouse emotionally and they may be seeking connection elsewhere. So sometimes people are easy fruit for somebody else to initiate with

Brad:

Them,

Brad:

But at times people could be resentful enough where they're going to go initiate with somebody else.

Morgan:

Wow.

Brad:

And so that happens as well

Morgan:

And they begin to rationalize, is that right? Rationalize this connection with a friend who is just a friend or just a

Brad:

Coworker. And Morgan, what's happening is if Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else, I'm no longer communicating with you

Because this negative cycle is beating me up or I'm not asking for my wants and needs. What happens is closing a door to their spouse and they're opening a door to someone else, and then they're going to share with them. Contact can be made with the affair partner and sometimes they've been friends with the affair partner all along. So when the betrayer gets involved or the involved spouse gets involved in the affair, it's typically somebody they've known for a while. It's generally not somebody they just met. It's not a one night stand type of thing. Typically it can be though, but they have contact with the affair partner. It's somebody that they may have known all along and the affair makes 'em feel good about themselves.

Morgan:

If there's depression, it lifts the depression.

Brad:

If they've been depressed, they've been feeling alone, they haven't felt attractive. If they haven't been having sex with their spouse and they get this attention from somebody else, they begin to feel good about themselves. They like how they feel. And Morgan talked about before in understanding why affairs happened like we've talked about before in finding meaning. The question to ask to understand why this particular affair happened is to ask how were you different? And that's generally how people feel about themselves. How did you feel about yourself? How were you different? How did you feel differently? How were you different as a person

Morgan:

While the affair was happening,

Brad:

While the affair was happening? What did you like about yourself?

Those are all things for people to consider to talk about because that's generally what's going on. And so far we have a fair start with a negative cycle that leads people to feeling burnt out, tired or feel beat up by that negative cycle. They don't feel like they're good enough for their spouse anymore in a sense. They may already feel rejected by their spouse, maybe even abandoned by their spouse. At times, people do feel that way, and that happens more often than you would think. So they no longer ask for once and needs. There's resentment there. They start feeling alone, they're sad, they're depressed, they feel numb, and then they start caring less about the marriage. Those are the things that can happen in any order that get people to start caring less about their marriage or relationship, and they're easy fruit for an affair

Brad:

To

Brad:

Be picked off or to initiate their own, and they have contact with the affair partner who may be somebody they've known all along. It may not be somebody new, and what can happen from there is they develop feelings for the affair partner or they can fall into limerence,

Morgan:

Which

Brad:

Is a romantic love, love addiction, obsessive love infatuation,

Morgan:

But it's not based on a reality.

Brad:

Yeah, that's not based on a reality,

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

It's based on a fantasy,

Morgan:

But

Brad:

Then they can develop feelings for that person and the affair will be going on. It's happening once the affair is discovered. It can make it difficult for some people to end the affair once they've been caught once they've been found out, but that's the general framework of why people have an affair. A lot of clients have discussed this with people who've been involved in an affair, and I would say the overwhelming majority of people who've cheated, have cheated because of what we talked about just a moment ago, feeling burned out or tired, beat up by the negative cycle, and they even feel beat up by the negative cycle of avoid, avoid because they don't think they matter anymore to their spouse. They feel like they're not good enough. They feel like they're not wanted anymore. They have real concerns about it, and so they go through this progression, this stage of feeling like they can't communicate, they can't share. Their spouse isn't there for them. They're no longer dependable. I can't go to them. They're going to be angry with me. They're going to be upset somehow. I don't make them happy.

Morgan:

Somehow I'll fall short or I'll fail or I won't measure up to their expectations,

Brad:

And part of this is so they go through this serious of progression, this psychology of betrayal. They'll go through the psychology of this mindset of someone who cheats. They'll develop, they'll have contact with the affair partner. The affair will start, feelings will develop for the affair partner. The affair will happen and will be happening. Then once the affair is made known,

Morgan:

Because it always will eventually,

Brad:

Yeah, typically it's more often than not, it's made known. Then Morgan, once it's made known for some people, almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? We'll keep talking about this. Thank you for listening today. Yes, have a wonderful week guys. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 13: What Will Make Them Stay, Leave, or Want Me Again? Stuck In Ambiguity, Feeling Confused?

Brad:

I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous and planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This is the podcast for you, and we're on episode number 13, and we're talking about factors that influence ambiguity or ambiguous feelings, and we're going to talk from the perspective or the question of what keeps me feeling so confused. Now, this is an important episode, but I want you to also know that you really need to go and listen to episode 12 that's really talking about should I stay or should I go? So download episode 12, and it's a good idea to listen to episode 12 before you listen to episode 13, which is the one we're about to play.

So do that. Make sure to listen to episode 12 and then come and listen to episode 13. And I want you also to remember that you have free resources waiting for you on the internet at your disposal, at the fingertips, at your fingertips. If you'll just go to healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's Healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's the number 13. Grab those downloads and you can also on that website, healing Broken trust.com. You can leave us a voicemail as well. Just go on there, leave us a voicemail, let us know if these resources are helping you. Let us know what you think about the podcast. Obviously go to iTunes and leave us a review if you love it and tell your friends about it and leave us a voicemail on our website as well. So don't forget to download your free resources, healing broken trust.com/episode 13. Let's get started.

Brad:

Almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? I want to spend a few moments just talking about this, the things that most affect ambiguity, and I would say on this, it's really the factors that influence uncertainty for a spouse to choose to stay in. Factors that affect a spouse who's going to leave. I want to just go over these because they can help save your marriage, help you guys work through this a little bit more on what the spouse who had the affair is thinking and the spouse who was betrayed, what they're considering,

And these are things that I hear by no means is this list exhaustive. I've got 20 different things here. There could easily be 40 things, but I just want to go through this. One of the things that's really important for injured spouses that affects if they want to stay or go is the amount of deception involved by the one who had the affair, the amount of deception that they used to cover their tracks. Were you lying to me face to face? I've kind of felt like something was a little off. Did you lie to your spouse when this was happening? That's going to affect their ability to trust in their ambiguity,

Morgan:

Kind of your blatant lies.

Brad:

Yeah. Do they approach you? I feel like you may be cheating. Is everything okay between

Morgan:

Us? Oh, no. No, not at all.

Brad:

Yeah, not at all. I love you. No, I'm happily married. We're okay. A couple months later, you find out that they have been cheating. That's going to affect your, should we stay or go?

Morgan:

Right? Right. They're going to go back to that moment. Another one would be if it was witnessed by the injured spouse as it actually happened, as it physically happened, if they saw you with them, if they saw it, that could really influence their ambiguous feelings as to whether they should stay or go or if it should even remain intact. So witnessing the event is a big one.

Brad:

And Morgan, that's very important. If you actually physically saw what was happening between the two people, that's going to affect you. And what I'm talking about specifically is sex. If you saw them having sex, that's going to affect, if you want to stay or

Morgan:

Go,

Brad:

How much the injured spouse feels like they're being lied to, how much honesty is they're there. That's really what I'm talking about. Are you being honest with me?

Morgan:

Do I know what honesty looks like on your face?

Brad:

Yeah. How can I read you? How can I trust you? Are you being honest with me right now?

Morgan:

Another one would be what the marriage was like before the affair. Was there a negative cycle that was happening before you even discovered this or before it even led to an affair? Right. Brad? That's a big one. That

Brad:

Is super important. Morgan. Along with that is the uncertainty of the spouse who's been betrayed if it will happen again, or do they know? What kind of reassurance do they have of will it happen again? As long as that is a huge question in their mind, they're going to be uncertain about st staying or going,

Morgan:

Especially if this wasn't the first time they discovered that you had cheated. That's a big deal. The other one, the sincerity, the seventh one, the sincerity and remorse of the involved spouse will determine the level of uncertainty about the future of the injured spouse.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, that's a very good one. Being sincere. How sincere, how remorseful are they? Do they care about me? And that really goes both ways. Sometimes I've worked with people who had an affair, and I want to really make this really an exclamation point with what I'm trying to say here. I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work. So when the person who had the affair saw the one they betrayed, really care for them after their affair was made known, that is what helped them choose to stay in the marriage,

Morgan:

Kind of re-engage.

Brad:

Yeah, and that has

Morgan:

Happened a lot.

Brad:

Yeah, believe it. That has happened a lot. And so yeah, that sincerity and remorse, just knowing you're cared for, that's really what that is saying. I care about you and you have to show your sincerity and remorse. There's no shortcuts with that. More than another thing is, has the one who's been betrayed, the injured spouse, been betrayed before in a previous relationship

Morgan:

That would really put someone on edge, definitely a human lie detector at that point. It's happened to me before. How can I trust that? It's not going to happen with you. And if you're doing that, if you're betraying me, it's not as much of a surprise. I think the next one, the attitudes of family and friends who know about the affair. What are their attitudes? Are they encouraging you to try to work out your relationship or just encouraging you to leave?

Brad:

Yeah. Are they friendly towards your marriage? That can be a key one. Does the injured spouse have children with the betrayer?

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Affects uncertainty because we're getting low on time. I'm going to sort through some of these religious views about divorce and remarriage. That's important. How much has a negative cycle affected the couple's ability to discuss it, the affair, or even feel close? So there's a negative cycle that happens before the affair, and obviously there's a negative cycle that affects a couple's ability to recover

Morgan:

And to discuss the affair.

Brad:

And if the injured spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out. That's also a factor. Another factor is for the injured spouse, is the betrayer getting help if they're a sex addict or a flander, are they getting help for this? Am I seeing some real changes inside of them? If as long as there's a huge question mark around sex addiction or the morality or the values or the lifestyle of the philander, as long as there's not any progression, there's no help, visible help being made or changes being made, people are going to be a little bit more uncertain about staying after they've been betrayed.

Morgan:

Right, right. That makes sense. What about the involved spouse?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, the involved spouse, there's a few things for them as well that affect that level of ambiguity that's in them, that uncertainty about seeing and working it out. Number one, I would say is the quality of the marriage before the affair. That's super important. How do I know that things will be different? And many times they want to leave because they don't know that how deep was their feelings for the affair partner or how deep are they currently for the affair partner?

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

Some people get stuck in that limerence, which we've talked about. How long and how deep was the relationship with the affair partner? How long did this affair go on? How deep did it get? And I would even include with that is how much fighting has gone on since the affair was discovered? That's an important part of choosing to work it out because people can really feel helpless and very

Morgan:

Hopeless, really stuck in that negative cycle too.

Brad:

Other factors that go with this is does the betrayer have kids with their spouse at home? Does the betrayer have their own kids with their spouse who they cheated on?

Brad:

That's

Brad:

Going to make them more likely to want to work it out? Religious views about divorcing remarriage and if the involved spouse feels like they, and here's, and this is also important, Morgan, if the involved spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out.

And Morgan, this is so important for both, is both people need to know that they're cared about, that their spouse does love them, that they really are cared about. That's significant towards working this out towards ambiguity. But those are some factors that influence ambiguity. And we've discussed the psychology of the betrayer, the mindset of someone who's having an affair, the thought process where they're at in the marriage, faires do not happen almost in a bubble. Yeah. Well, most of the time in a healthy marriage, in a good marriage, sometimes people mistakenly think they're in a good marriage because there's not any conflict. We have good communication, but they're not really communicating

Morgan:

About wants and needs.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, they're not really emotionally engaged with each other. They're really good roommates maybe, and people want to know that they're desired and wanted and really cared for. And when that's uncertain, that's when affairs happen. When that's uncertain in a person's mind, they're more likely to cheat.

Morgan:

They begin to care less about the marriage.

Brad:

They begin to care less about maintaining that relationship for emotional

Morgan:

Reasons, and that usually happens over time. Wouldn't you agree or could it be?

Brad:

It can. It depends. Okay. But it varies.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Well, thank you. You've been listening to How to Recover From An Affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. Have a great week guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 15: Am I crazy? What’s wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? What to do in the first 90 days

Brad:

And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you are wanting to save your relationship after infidelity, this is the podcast for you. And we're officially on podcast number 15 where we're talking about trauma. And specifically with this question of am I experiencing trauma? What does it look like? I'll tell you what, it'll be a really good idea to go back to episode one and revisit the seven stages of a fair recovery process that we talk about in episode one to really prepare you for this episode. But one thing you can do and that I recommend doing is also going to healing broken trust.com/episode 15. That's the number 15 to download your free resources. They're really going to help you through this process, really help you to understand where you are. Are you experiencing trauma? What does it look like? How does it play out in real life and every day situations? And so again, that's healing Broken trust.com/episode 15. Download those resources and let's get started.

And we've been talking about the stages of recovery, so do you want to remind the listeners about the stages of a fair

Brad:

Recovery? Yeah, just a quick recap. The stages of a fair recovery, there's the moment of discovery. In that moment of discovery, there's ambiguity, uncertainty. If we want to continue on, there's trauma. That's what we're going to talk about today, meaning trying to understand why this happened, what's going on, and then ultimately forgiveness. And simultaneously what's going on is there needs to be care, caring behavior, compassion that is expressed between both spouses, the betrayer and the injured spouse.

Morgan:

Yeah, and the whole process, it's not linear, correct?

Brad:

No,

Morgan:

It's kind of circular. Sometimes you'll come in the discovery, you'll start right at the discovery process and you might move through it quicker or move to bounce around to the

Brad:

Different, yeah, you kind of move around. So it's not a linear process, but it is a process that people can work through. And the most important ingredient is really carrying and compassion. It needs to be there for both people to be able to recover from this. We had an email. Do you want to go ahead and jump into that?

Morgan:

Sure. Let's talk about the email. We have a question from a listener, and here it is. I learned about my wife's affair with her coworker two months ago. She has since stopped seeing this person and is trying to help me heal, but I still can't seem to stop thinking about her with him. I feel obsessed with knowing what happened. My wife is becoming tired of answering the same questions over and over, and I feel worried that she will leave me just because my obsession with knowing what's happened. I feel like I'm going crazy. Why do I feel this way?

Brad:

Well, I'm glad that person emailed because that's what we're talking about today, that question. Am I crazy? What's wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? That is a very, very important question. And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. And I'm not diagnosing anybody with anything. I'm just saying this is generally what happens. Very large number of people are experiencing obsessive thoughts, rage, nightmares, anxiety, the inability to sleep, all these different things that they're experiencing, and it makes 'em feel nuts. They can't quit thinking about it no matter how hard they try to move on. Can't. Nobody's crazy when they're experiencing these things after a betrayal. Very normal. And both people need to understand this. The betrayer needs to understand this. One of the things that happens in a fair recovery is the spouse who's been betrayed is very obsessed about this, and so they want to talk about it. Talking about it for them helps 'em find relief, helps 'em understand it. It helps them begin to piece the puzzle together and they actually find relief.

And the betrayer feels like, gosh, talking about this is I'm only hurting you more. Why do you want to know about all this, yada, yada, yada? I'm only hurting you. But for the injured spouse, it's actually the only relief they find from it are some of the only relief. One of the things that's real important about this that people need to understand is people who've been betrayed are not crazy. You're not crazy. It's very normal. When I experienced betrayal, I experienced a lot of the same things that we're going to talk about today. In a sense, it's very predictable. Even for a lot of people, an affair is the most devastating experience that they'll have. I had a guy that was in Iraq say he would rather be shot at again in Iraq than to experience his wife cheating on him again. Wow, that's

Morgan:

Strong.

Brad:

But here's the catch with this. And I've had somebody else say, I would rather I've had a woman say that her husband's affair was worse than losing a child. And those are very strong statements that are made and not everybody feels those ways would say the same thing those people said, but this pain ranks up there with the death of a spouse, parent, a child. Some people have even said it's worse. And some of you that are listening to this who've experienced this, know what I'm talking about. The betrayer doesn't understand this. They just want it to be over quickly and it's not over quickly, and there's a lot of work that needs to be done. People can heal from it though I'm not saying you can't, but it just takes time. The first 90 days is the longest period of time, but people can't heal from it.

Morgan:

Yeah, the first 90 days is the most difficult, where the pain is raw and it's just so fresh and so many questions need to be answered. Yeah,

Brad:

It's really the crisis period. And that's usually when the symptoms of PTSD are at their highest.

Morgan:

So we were talking about trauma. How long does it take to recover from trauma?

Brad:

Well, it's dependent upon different factors, but the average couple, if everything goes right, it's about two years. There are some things that hinder people from recovering the way they need. And I just kind of want to go over this real quick.

Morgan:

Let me ask you real quick, by saying two years to recover, do you mean they need to be in counseling for two years or does that mean

Brad:

No, usually to be honest, and this is what couples need to understand is usually couples do really, really well in marriage counseling. It's actually quite rare for couples who come in because of an affair not to do well, usually if they're there, they both want it to work, they want to work through it, they just don't know how. It's extremely confusing. It is a nightmare. It's a rollercoaster. They don't know how they think they're crazy. The person who had the affair, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with me? Why did I do this? So it's kind of a myth that you're doomed. So most people actually do better than other couples that come into marriage counseling, believe it or not. But the trauma aspect of this is what takes a while to heal because it's that fundamental trust, that foundation of the relationship and it's been damaged. And so some of the things that can hinder that make this a longer process, I'll go over this real quick. There are a few primary ideas. The first is they live in a fantasy. They feel the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. The fantasy they had with the affair partner was one that didn't have the baggage of a long-term committed relationship.

Morgan:

That's something you typically term as limerence, correct?

Brad:

Yeah. I'd call that limerence. And limerence is basically a feeling of romantic love. The best way to describe it is you're really addicted to somebody else. You're obsessed with that person. It's really commonly called the first stage of falling in love that people have when they're dating. All you can do is think about them. And so that's when people have an affair. That's sometimes what's happened, and this is where people actually leave their spouse to be with the affair partner. They're experiencing limerence that's really matured and fully grown.

Morgan:

And you typically say that when they leave their spouse for that person, that's when the fantasy kind of bubble is burst

Brad:

Typically? Yeah, yeah. Usually people who leave their spouse to be with that other person, they have the highest divorce rates when they marry their affair partner because the fantasy's over.

So the first thing is the person still feels the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. They don't have the baggage because it's so new. It's so fresh. They're not experiencing the day-to-day responsibilities or the day-to-day realities of a long-term relationship. There's no baggage. The betrayer is free to focus solely on the relationship with the affair partner. A common example of this, it's not just limited to people like this, but you see this especially with people who have young children, especially dads at home. If you got a dad, the mom is staying at home, taking care of the kids. Dad may feel ignored when he's at home. There's noise, there's crying. It feels like he doesn't have any time to himself, but when he is with his affair partner, he feels like he can be himself and not have any of the responsibilities of raising a family. His affair will be an escape from reality, a fantasy he can be engaged in,

Morgan:

Engaged with that person, or maybe it lacked engagement with their spouse.

Brad:

And so when he's with his wife, there's financial struggles. Maybe he feels left out because children are getting more attention and with his affair partner, he feels like he did when he was a younger man free from the responsibilities of raising a family and basically he's living in a fantasy world. This is totally fantasy.

Morgan:

So we're talking about what hinders the trauma recovery process, and you've talked about limerence. What else

Brad:

Hinders that? One of the things that's important to know with this is something that for most couples, I would say nine out of 10 who are dealing with an affair, maybe eight out of 10. It's a very predictable process. This is what you got to do. I wouldn't say it's necessarily paint by the numbers, but you can really see great success. And so it's really just lack of knowledge. If you don't know what you're doing, if you listen to the girls at the getting your at the salon or the guys at the gym or whoever, it's really going to hurt you bad. Even in really listening to people who, and not even people like that, but just people who don't even know what they're talking about

Morgan:

And aren't pro your relationship.

Brad:

You need people who are your marriage who want you guys to make it, want your relationship to make it. You need that kind of help. But one of the things, and this is so important, I want to really highlight this. The greatest predictor in overcoming trauma is having somebody there for you to help you through it. There's no better person to help you through this than the person who's had the affair. Now, the injured spouse will tell you, yeah, I know that's true, but the betrayer, what you need to know as the betrayer is you are the best person to help your spouse heal your love, your care, your attention, your honesty about what's happened is really what your spouse needs to begin to heal. If they feel like they have that from you, you guys are going to be okay. If your spouse feels like you're not being honest, the odds aren't too good.

So they really need to feel like you're on their side, that you're trying to be there for them. One of the things that keeps people from being the healer and that really keeps people stuck in the trauma is while they were having the affair, the betrayer was living in a fantasy. Like we said earlier, they're living in a fantasy world, but what's happened is they're creating an unfair picture of their spouse. So they're with this affair partner, my God, this is amazing on cloud nine, they're in love, they're happy, they're no responsibilities, no realities in the picture yet. And so they're looking at their spouse and they're comparing their fair partner with their spouse and they're thinking, gosh, look at all these negative qualities that my spouse has all this, all that. It's really an unfair comparison. So in my experience, it does take time for involved spouses to let their feelings about the affair partner fade from their mind. But once they do, the faults of the fair partner usually outweigh the faults of the spouse. The longer a betrayer is ambivalent about being the healer his or her spouse needs, the more the injured spouse's insecurities in craziness will only increase craziness. But if the betrayer meets the betrayed spouse with compassion, it will help him or her to regain their composure back again.

Morgan:

And really that's a lot of patience because they will ask the same questions over and over

Brad:

Ist

Morgan:

That correct?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

Usually until they can really process the answer that you're giving and really process the information for themselves until they can start really fully understanding. Is that

Brad:

Correct? Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. The idea with this is is that our greatest predictor in overcoming any trauma is having somebody there. For us, what's so necessary about affair recovery is we need the person who had the affair to turn around and say, I'm going to be here for you. I'm going to try to do whatever it takes. I'm going to be here. I'm going to have compassion. I'm going to be patient. I'm going to answer these questions. I'm going to be honest. When we have that, we're going to be okay. And we are really not recovering from trauma until we have that

Morgan:

Brad. People, they often feel very hopeless and you're giving them a lot of hope. So we're talking about hope and the recovery process and trauma. Tell us what they need to know about the rest of the recovering from trauma.

Brad:

Now, this is the single most important idea I want our listeners to get today is the greatest predictor of success in overcoming any kind of trauma isn't what the trauma is per se. It's not being shot at in Iraq. It's not going over a roadside bomb. It's not experiencing war, it's not being sexually abused. And PTSD basically means a deep personal wound. So that could be sexual abuse, it could be experiencing a riot

Morgan:

In

Brad:

A third world country. It could be anything that's a deep personal wound. The greatest predictor of this though is having somebody there for us that we can call upon for support. Having somebody that we can turn to and in a fair recovery, having the betrayer be there for you, turning towards you saying, yeah, I'm going to do whatever it takes. That's what helps people heal. So it's not really what came before necessarily. Not every affair is equal. There is a lot of pain. If we have that ingredient, we're going to be okay, and that's really the major thing that we need is betrayer to become

Morgan:

The healer,

Brad:

To become the healer, and we can overcome this trauma. That takes time though, even when they're really there though, I don't want people listening to say, gosh, we'd be so much further along if they only just did this or just did that. You want to be really careful as the injured spouse, not to police the betrayer in the sense of being critical, condemning, nagging, blaming. You want to be very careful not to do any of those things

Morgan:

Because you want to encourage them to be the healer.

Brad:

Yeah, you want 'em to encourage to be the healer because what they're thinking is, gosh, this person's such a drag. They're nagging.

Morgan:

Maybe I'm doing more harm than good by talking about this,

Brad:

And so it's kind of a catch 22, and so you want to be really careful. Let them know you appreciate everything that you're receiving, that you're getting, and you're only going to get more when you do that. So you want to be really careful, but you want to help them be educated on everything,

Morgan:

And that's really hard because in the moment of that pain and everything, it's very easy to say, gosh, they don't deserve any praise because they've been so horrible to me.

Brad:

And that's true. People feel like that and they feel like they usually early on in the process, early on in the process, I don't want to give a definite time, but definitely within the first three months, usually that's when they feel that way. The other thing is this is what can hinder people from being the healer, and I see this a lot. In fact, I see this more than the first two that we talked about. Still being caught up in the fantasy element is really the betrayer feels a lot of shame. They feel really stupid about having an affair and just the fact that they feel stupid or shame or guilty about this and there's a certain level of guilt that's healthy, but when it turns into shame, I'm a bad person, I'm stupid. All this stuff keeps you self-consumed about the affair. It keeps you focused on yourself because you

Morgan:

Feel you have to do something to fix yourself first.

Brad:

Yeah, you think of that, but you also feel so bad that and you see your spouse hurting them and in a sense kind of bleeding to death and you're the one who pulled the trigger. It really keeps you from being there for them the way that you need to be.

Morgan:

And I've heard you talk about it. It's like this guilt, shame, depression cycle where you just go into this deep depression sometimes where like you're saying, very self-consumed and absorbed and thinking, gosh, I did this horrible thing. There's no way out, there's no hope. And you just kind of fall into this depression.

Brad:

You fall into this depression and it really keeps you from being there for your spouse,

Morgan:

The healer that you need to be.

Brad:

And usually when people are like this, they don't like expressing their shame, their guilt, they don't like sharing these things, and you really need to express those things to the spouse that you betrayed. You need to open up emotionally. You need to share things with them. You need to let them know that you're really sorry. In fact, one of the things that can really help you be a healer is just tears, just conviction. I'm really sorry about this. I'm sad about this. And just tears can really letting your spouse know how eaten up by this you really

Morgan:

Are. We're talking about the things that hinder the healing process when it comes to trauma. We have one that betrayed their spouse. What keeps them from becoming the healer, Brad?

Brad:

Well, really lack of knowledge about the process. Sometimes there's still feelings for their affair partner and also their own guilt and shame about what they've committed. They really feel devastated by that. The other thing, we only have a few minutes left, so I want to go over something I mentioned last week. We talked about ambiguity. I want to be clear on this. This is something I wanted to discuss. The period of uncertainty. I really discouraged people from separating when they're trying to work out the marriage, people who separate to try to work on the marriage. There has been some research that's shown that there's only a 13% chance of actually reconciling after people do a trial separation, and that's because they get a newfound sense of independence, family and friends, a knowingly encourage divorce, that kind of thing. They say things, I'll just be happy. Whatever makes you happy. There is a time when separation is a good idea and that's when there's the threat of physical violence. I want that to be clear that I'm not totally against the idea of separation. I am in most cases, but I do make an exception for the threat. A physical violence. If your life is in danger or if you're getting beat up and you're finding that this isn't productive, then it's a good idea to work on this from a distance and separate

Morgan:

And it's never productive to be beat up, that's for sure. No,

Brad:

Not at all.

Morgan:

Let me just ask, how do you recognize the symptoms of trauma?

Brad:

Okay. Some of the common feelings, reactions that people have is there's intrusive memories about the affair. Feeling like their mind can't control the onslaught of questions that they're having about the affair. There's flashbacks or what I mean by that is reliving the discovery of the affair and feeling like they did the first time they heard about the affair. There's nightmares about it, trying to avoid thinking or talking about the affair, feeling emotionally numb, avoiding activities that were once enjoyed, hopelessness about the future, having problems with memory, trouble concentrating, difficulty maintaining close relationships, rage, irritability or anger, overwhelming guilt or shame, self-destructive behavior such as drinking too much, maybe even using drugs, trouble sleeping, being easily startled or frightened, hearing or seeing things that aren't there. Experiencing amnesia, forgetting all of the affair or parts of it, feeling like the affair did not really happen, as if it were a dream or covered by fog, feeling like they're outside observers, like they're watching this happen to someone else.

Morgan:

It's shock

Brad:

And of course an anxiety. So those are the symptoms and really it's a deep personal wound that people experience and the major thing to heal from this is, and we're going to get into this, it's finding meaning and it's really just understanding why this happened. Once you feel like you can understand it, then your mind can rest. You no longer need to wrestle with it and have the obsessiveness. And next time we meet, what we're going to talk about is we're going to get into a little bit more in depth on what happens to our mind, how the mind works and how really when we experience deep personal wounds like this and experience symptoms of PTSD, we will experience what is called almost in a sense disassociation, where a mind and memories kind of just separate or shatter into different pieces, and this is why people will have flashbacks, just reminders that pop out of nowhere. It means there's unresolved business. We have unfinished business that needs to be dealt with so we can heal, and then when we are completely healed from this, we will no longer have some of the disassociated features of this

Morgan:

Or the going back and returning and hashing it over, and you can kind of return to reality again and not be so zombie-like be back to the real world again and able to

Brad:

Relate. We're also talk about how you're recovering from the affair. That's good. We're talking about that too. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 22: "If You Cheat On Me I’ll Leave You” And Other Things People Say That Challenge the Conversation

Brad:

You're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse. For them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you want to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. You've made it to episode 22 where we address the O. So important question of how do we talk about the affair. Some say it's not important to talk about the affair, that it's useless and will just make things worse, and others say you must talk about it and you can't heal without talking about it. So we're going to lay the myths to rest and talk about what really needs to happen for you to fully recover. Also, we want to hear from you and get your perspective on things. So if you want to share your thoughts or maybe you have some questions, then go on over to healing broken trust.com. Click on the tab called Weekly Calls and leave a voice message for us there. You can also download the free resources that go along with this episode@healingbrokentrust.com slash episode 22. That's episode and the number 22. And let's get started.

Brad:

This show we're talking about how to recover from an affair, the steps that need to be taken to recover the time. Basically everything that a person needs to know to work through this. We are discussing that in detail, in depth, and so you're not going to really hear this anywhere else. This is one of the big issues that people struggle with. We are here to help you guys work through this. In fact, we had an email that was sent into us that really, I think I've heard a lot from people, and I'm glad somebody sent this in. And it basically is this, Brad, how do I talk to my wife about this? She told me before I had this affair. I never want you to tell me if you've ever cheated on me. I don't want to know that because I've been betrayed by someone else before in a previous marriage.

And really to answer that question for that person, I would say most people before they're betrayed, they do not want to know any details. They would rather just not know because what I don't know is not going to hurt me. But after people know they've been betrayed and they know they've been cheated on, most people want to know in great detail about the affair. And so it's kind of different rules. Usually the person who's been betrayed, sometimes they'll say things like, I will leave you if you ever cheat on me, if you ever sleep with anybody else, I'll leave you. But after an affair, after you're really dealing with it and you're not in hypothetical situations, most people choose to stick around and try to work on it, and most people want to know about it because that's only way they find relief in healing.

In fact, only about 7% of people don't want to know anything about the affair. They don't want to talk about it. If your spouse falls into that 7% of people who don't want to know anything about it, who don't want to talk about it, you can't make them talk about it. You can't tell them anything about it. You just can't give them information. They don't want to know. And so you kind of only go as far as that injured spouse wants to know and the types of questions that they have. Hopefully that answers the listener question. Morgan, we've been talking about the ground rules on how to talk about an affair, and one of the things we said is how you talk about this, it's so much more important than really what is said. It needs to be in a climate of compassion, care, understanding. And so just to kind recap what we said is people need to schedule time to talk about this.

Morgan:

That's right. Yeah. Set aside that time and that journaling will help you to organize your thoughts and feelings so that you can make that time more productive. You talked about open limitations a little bit.

Brad:

Yeah, we talked about that a little bit last time. We're going to really get into that into detail today. The person who had the affair really needs to have a vomit session where they just get everything out and just purge. Just get it all out there, just get it all out there. And then common reaction is that people find this is not an easy process. It's like cough medicine. We talked about that. If people are talking about betrayal, they get angry, they get upset, and it's like cough medicine for both people

Morgan:

Because the medicine goes down and it's not tasty. It doesn't feel good at all.

Brad:

No, but it helps people get better.

Morgan:

The benefit is definitely seen

Brad:

Over time. And so sometimes spouses who've been betrayed, they can be very emotionally abusive, verbally abusive. And that's why we were talking about journaling as well, is just channel those emotions onto paper. And that way you're not lashing out of your spouse because they feel quite

Morgan:

Abused,

Brad:

Abused, also demotivated,

That kind of thing. The injured spouse is attacking during the discussions. You're only hurting the person who needs to be there as a healer for you. They're not going to be motivated to be there. And basically the last thing we left off with is it's important that spouse is not interrupt during the conversation. Discussing affair can get heated very quickly, and really you should try to do everything in your power not to let this happen. If you can learn just to sit and listen, not interrupt, write down questions, write down comments that you have in your journal, you're going to hear things that you may not hear. If you interrupt, you're going to hear things that you wouldn't hear if you interrupt them. And so that's what we left off is don't interrupt each other. Let the betrayer finish their thoughts, finish their sentences. If you feel like you're catching them in a lie or a white lie, really try to not interrupt them because you're not going to get all the information you need if you sit there and you pounce on them if you think you're making a mistake. And so that's kind of where we left off, Morgan. What are the other ground rules?

Morgan:

The next one really is it's important to discuss the affair in a way that gives your spouse reassurance that you're reassuring them that the affair will not happen again. And that's the most important thing. They need to know why, of course, but they also need to know this isn't going to happen again. It's not a pattern of betrayal and maybe it has in the past, but it won't go any further. So don't avoid or deny the affair or minimize the damage or fall into denial because it will only create more distrust. And that's the biggest thing is you want to create trust. And that's going to take a lot of time. If you as a betrayer find yourself becoming defensive, say to your spouse, Hey, I know I've hurt you. I want to make this better and I'm committed to the process, but I'm feeling attacked and I think we need to take a minute and breathe.

Brad:

Yeah, and Morgan, I'm glad you said that because it's so important in this process, the betrayer needs to be able to come to the injured spouse and just share everything and get it out there. And they need to get it all out

Morgan:

There and trust the process.

Brad:

They need to trust the process. But I like what you're saying. The betrayer needs to be proactive in this. They need to be the ones initiating conversations at times. They need to be proactive. They need to be

Morgan:

Open and honest. You need to take responsibility for the actions that they took, but also help your spouse by realizing that they're hurting and stop them from spiraling downward in uncontrollable anger by going to them and being open.

Brad:

And Morgan, what I like about what you just said is you're showing that important idea of I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

Most betrayers, they want to suppress information, but if you go to them and you initiate conversations about this, you go and you're willing to talk about it. You just tell them information about it. That helps the injured spouse, since they don't have to protect themselves as much, they sense you are here to help me heal. You are here to help me. I don't need to be in a self-protective mode. I don't need to keep my walls up. And so what you're saying is really important. One of the things that's really important almost as a word of caution is if you do not talk about this, if you don't discuss the affair, this is really the best way for people to recover from this is to talk about this, to deal with it upfront, to really just almost hug a cactus in a way. You just have to really deal with it. And if people are unwilling to discuss this, it results in a much slower recovery time increases the chances of divorce,

And it creates more distress. Like I said last week, the more that the injured spouse knows, the more they feel like they're healing. You do not want to fall into the trap as the betrayer of suppressing information. You feel like you're suppressing this because of your guilt. You don't want to make your spouse feel worse, but that suppressing of the information is actually causing them to feel worse, and it's going to keep you stuck in guilt longer. And suppressing information is going to keep you stuck in the fantasy of the affair, the secret of the affair, and those secrets in that fantasy. It's going to keep you from becoming emotionally invested back into the marriage and relationship the way you need to be.

And so the more you share, the more you're deconstructing that fantasy of what the affair was, and it's bringing you more into reality. You are entering the real world, you're entering into reality again, and it's helping you lose those feelings for the affair partner. And it's helping you reconnect. In fact, what it's doing is it is helping you reconnect with your spouse, but it's bringing a new level of intimacy that hasn't been there because there's a new level of honesty. You're being more open about your feelings, you're being more open about what you need from your spouse. And so that's why this step of talking about the affairs is so important.

Morgan:

Yeah, absolutely. But also the next point that we wanted to make was betrayers will need to revisit many different aspects of the affair multiple times. We've talked about that on the show quite a few times. Those obsessive or intrusive thoughts that you keep asking the same questions because you find and learn new things each time you ask the question. But discussing how they met with the affair partner once will not accomplish. It's usually more than once, typically that they'll ask the same questions, but each time it's discussed, you'll learn something new and that'll in turn help you to recover. For many couples, it does get annoying that they have to revisit the topic again and again, but involve spouses. The betrayer must maintain their composure. You must maintain your composure and let your spouse know that you're there to help them to heal and to recover. It's a huge, it's going to make a huge difference.

Brad:

And Morgan, one of the things that you said that's real important is you're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse, for them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this. The injured spouse, it needs to be talked about. It's wrong for professional to tell somebody, look, it's been six months, it's been a year, it's been five years. Never bring it up again. That's just absurd. And it really shows a lack of understanding of the trauma recovery process for somebody from this type of particular trauma.

Morgan:

And the time that's passed, I mean, it could be two years, three years, 20 years, but pain is still there.

Brad:

Oh, yeah. Time doesn't heal

Morgan:

Anything. It's discussing it. It's talking about, it's working through it. I mean, some healing may occur, but the full healing,

Brad:

No, not the full healing. So people need to talk about it multiple times. There's different reasons why people need to talk about this multiple times or the same question multiple times. I would say the first reason is there's shattered assumptions that the injured spouse has about the betrayer. I no longer feel like I know who you are, so they're trying to reconstruct who this person is. Part of it is I just can't believe this. This has blown my mind. It's shocking. It's shocking. So just, I can't believe they said this. They did this. You're trying to reconstruct it. Another thing is it's like watching a movie like Inception. I love that movie,

But there's different layers to that plot. But every time you watch a movie like that where you talk about an affair, you're uncovering different layers of it. You're seeing something that you haven't seen before. And the more that the injured spouse can talk about this process, it, it's actually bringing healing to them. It's helping them become more complete. And you as a spouse who's had the affair, that's part of you being a healer, is really being patient with that, showing that you're willing to do whatever it takes. And it's going to take sometimes some questions literally hundreds of times to get answered. And that is frustrating, but that's part of for the maximum healing process to take place. It's going to be several times of just asking the same questions.

Morgan:

And there's one thing that you did mention earlier in one of the points that you made about the vomit session, making sure that you get it out there, get it all out. But one thing that I think ties into this that we need to probably remind people is if you don't vomit it out and new information gets in there, wedged in there where you haven't told everything, it's almost like starting over, like you've said before in the discovery process. It's a shock. So each time you discover a new layer or a new piece of information, it's like, oh my gosh. It's like going right back to the beginning of the hurt of the pain. It's pulled up, the scab has been ripped off. So it's important to get all of that information out there, but then you're still going to have those same questions over and over. But I mean, your story is the same because it's the truth. It just needs to be understood and rethought through again, probably.

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah. Morgan, you brought up another good point too, is really with the point that you made about

Morgan:

Having a vomit session, making sure

Brad:

That it's out there because when you bring it up like this and you have a vomit session or a purge session, you just get it all out and information is discovered later. That person, sometimes they feel like, gosh, I'm just starting over, or they feel like even, what else do I not know? Yeah, what else do I not know? And it keeps them hypervigilant on the defensive or wall is up.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So that's more of the reason for you just to get everything out at once, as much as you can get it all out there. And that way they feel safer. And sometimes couples do struggle with that where, gosh, we're in this for three months or even a year and I find out something new, or even I've had some couples, five or six years later, they find out something new and it just kind of sets some, brings 'em back down on the ladder. And that's the importance of getting it all out there. And here's the thing too, I want to say about honesty is when you're honest about this, people stick around when they feel like you're being the healer and you're being honest. People do not stick around when they feel like you're being lied to. So if you're worried about, gosh, if my spouse really knows this or if they know that they're going to leave me, chances are they're probably going to stay. As long as they feel like you're being honest with them and you're transparent with them and you're really trying to rebuild things, they leave when they feel like, I'm not getting anywhere, you're not helping me.

Morgan:

And think about how light of a load you'll carry with being able to tell them everything and then getting through it and healing. I mean on your part as the betrayer as well, your conscience will thank you

Brad:

And you're going to have a lot less guilt, that kind of thing. Absolutely. There's some areas that you want to stay away from. We really advise couples to stay away from anything that makes you more obsessive. Sometimes people ask, what do I share? What kind of questions? What do I share? Do I share that I slept with this person? Do I share that on our anniversary, we did this or I did that with the affair partner?

Morgan:

How much information is too much information?

Brad:

Yeah. Well, and here's the thing, there's kind of a protocol for this. There is some things that I would strongly encourage people not to talk about that, but most of the time, whatever the injured spouse feels like they need to know. I'm okay with that. Like I said earlier, only about 7% of injured spouses have no desire for any sort of details. Two thirds want to know great details. And so the three areas are graphic, sexual details, love letters, and anything that makes the injured spouse more obsessive about the past.

Morgan:

And you want to avoid those, right? Yeah,

Brad:

You want to avoid those. And generally the obsessiveness comes from graphic sexual details and love letters

And graphic sexual details are really hard for men, especially because they'll picture their wife with another man, very visual doing certain things, and men are very visual. So it's much to overcome. And I found that people get stuck in thinking about this. Men will get stuck or even women get stuck in thinking about the sexual part because they don't have all the information. And what happens is their mind is just kind of going through all the information they know. And part of that is the sexual details because they're trying to understand what happened, why it happened. And so they're just going through all this information. And part of that's the sexual details. One of the best ways I know how for people to overcome the sexual details is really to understand the whole affair and to get all their questions answered. Because once they have everything answered, they have stopped obsessing of the unknown of the unknown, and it's just obsessing period. And that causes them to get stuck on the graphic sexual details. The other area you do not want to know is love letters. That generally is harder for women. And let me say this though, it's not just hard on women, it's hard on men too, but it's very hard to see that your spouse may be bashing you

In a letter, but praising somebody else, talking positively, someone else, giving them a nickname that you do not have, they may have a different type of relationship than you've had with your spouse. I had a guy that came in a little over a year ago. His wife had an affair last summer, and when they came in, they came in about April or March, and this was really interesting. No healing had virtually taken place because hers was an online affair with somebody in a different state, but he had all this information online and every day he looked over it, just poured over it, read everything, revisited everything. So the guy was very depressed, very obsessed, still not a lot of things made sense. And so there was no healing that took place.

Morgan:

You kind of kept him right there.

Brad:

Yeah, it kept him in the beginning of the process and nine months afterwards, he should have been in a very comfortable place, not perfect, but in a place where I definitely feel like I'm moving forward. I have hope. I know we're working through this. I've worked through a lot of the major part of this. We should have already been there. It's been nine months at ground

Morgan:

Zero,

Brad:

Nine months at a really, really bad place. You want to avoid graphic sexual details. You want to avoid love letters, text messages, emails. Unfortunately, that's how so many people find out about an affair nowadays. It's an online affair where they got kind of these text messages and smartphones and things in Facebook. That's how people find out. But you really want to try to avoid kind of bearing yourself in that and revisiting it because it's only going to keep you held hostage.

Morgan:

So one thing we have here to avoid the scenario, we recommend writing these questions down, sleep on them. Ask yourself, is this information, is it really necessary for my healing? Sometimes just writing it down will help you kind of get through those feelings, but sleep on it.

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb. Just give yourself some time when you get the question you want it answered right away, but give yourself some time

Morgan:

Because

Brad:

With these types of questions, they tend to be re-traumatizing. They tend to open the wound back up. They tend to pour salt on that wound and it doesn't heal. So give yourself some time. You don't need to really jump ahead into this. And I would, to be honest with you, I really encourage you not to ask questions about sexual, obviously, did you make love? Did you have sex? That kind of thing.

Morgan:

Will I need to worry

Brad:

About STDs? STDs, were they on birth control? That's fine. But things like sexual positions, lingerie you really need to avoid. And there's some more graphic questions that you could ask that I don't want to say, but you really want to avoid that because it just keeps you stuck.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

It retraumatizes you.

Morgan:

So Brad, we are going to out of time here very soon, but would you like to talk about the open limitations?

Brad:

Let say, let me just summarize the last two steps here. When discussing an affair, it's important to do what we call open limitations. Where as time goes on, you're probably talking about the affair for hours on length, especially in the early weeks. You're talking about the affair constantly. But as time goes on, that idea of open limitations is at any moment the injured spouse is able to bring up a question and it's discussed for no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. And part of that is because the longer you go on, the more that's shared, the more that's told can cause people to get angry

Morgan:

Escalation.

Brad:

And if it's not done, you get into that negative cycle of blame, withdraw, one person's blame and the other one's withdrawing. But if you do that, that tends to be the best way to do this. It's just discuss it for no more than 15 to 30 minutes and it helps people really begin to recover and you're just kind of doing it throughout your

Morgan:

Day. And if you do the journal method, like what we had talked about in the last show, if you write it down and you really think through, okay, what do I need to know? What questions do I have? You're going to make those conversations within 15 to 30 minutes. You're going to make them more productive. You're going to get somewhere instead of falling into just a big argument.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Just limit yourself to 15 to 30 minutes per question or part time that you discuss this, and you can talk about it really at any time. Obviously not when the kids are around, but really at any time. So the injured spouse has the freedom to ask this really at any time they feel the need to, but you're not discussing it at length. You're able to kind of resume your normal life together

Morgan:

And 30 minutes wraps up and then you're able to go and cool down and really

Brad:

Breathe. And then kind of the next thing is because the betrayer many times feels like this is hopeless, I can't help this person heal. I can't be forgiven. And I notice people when they've dealt with the affair for a long periods of time, like a year or more, they start feeling like, gosh, nothing I can do is going to have any effect on this person. And so this is where that care and compassion comes in. Is what you are doing really helps me,

Us talking about this? You don't understand how much this helps me. I appreciate this. I notice what you're doing. I notice what you're contributing, praising them for what you're getting because it's only going to help them give you more. And so that's important, and that is many times the injured spouse feels like I don't owe them anything, have a huge wall up. That is true and that needs to be worked on, but I can understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying that's necessarily true that you shouldn't try to help them, but if you give them appreciation, give them positive feedback. I notice what you're doing. These small things matter. These things that you're doing matter, they're going to have more motivation and sometimes they're just completely demoralized

Morgan:

And ultimately you will get the healing that you need as the betrayed spouse. So it's a win-win situation. One person feels like they can be open and honest and sharing, and then you also get the healing that you need, the answers that you need.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 26: Why Do They Lie?