Ep 8: Did They Really End The Affair? Is It Really Over? Why Is It Important To End The Affair The Right Way? How to Cut Off The Affair Parter For Good This Time.

Brad:

An apology and a verbal commitment isn't enough.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad Morgan Robinson. This is a podcast where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship. So if you're wanting to heal your marriage after any of these things, this is the podcast for you. And in episode eight, we're talking about how do you cut off the affair partner. So it's really important obviously, to cut off the affair partner, but one thing we want to remind you is we have free resources to help you through this process. If you go to healing broken trust.com/episode eight, that's episode the number eight, you can download our free resources there to help you through this process. So if you're in this position where you're struggling to cut off the affair partner, you might want to go back to episode four where we talk about how to fall out of love with the affair partner. That's really important. Episode two is also a really good one where we talk about limerence as well. So go back to those. Those can really help you if you are struggling to kind of cut off the affair. So that's really important. But with that, let's get started.

Today we're talking about how to end an affair. It seems clear to many of us that we can't have an affair partner in our marriage relationship in a relationship. But why is it that you can't gloss over this important step of cutting off the affair,

Brad:

Brad? Well, there's several reasons why some of 'em are quite obvious, but many times when people do have an affair, they think an apology is enough. They think that I've apologized, I've made a verbal commitment that should be good enough, and it's really not. And there's several reasons why an apology and a verbal commitment isn't enough. A verbal commitment to your spouse isn't enough. Part of that is because your spouse is terrified that this is going to happen again. I hear constantly from everybody who's been betrayed, they always say, how do I know this won't happen again? And if you don't cut this person out of your life in the right way, you're not creating safety for your marriage to go on for your marriage to heal. And so number, well, there's several different reasons why it's important to cut off the affair partner. I'm just going to go through a couple of them. I think the first is, is it sends the wrong message to your spouse and the affair partner still, he never told me it was over or she never told me it was over. So are they just busy right now or

Morgan:

Yeah, I guess I can just check up with them week.

Brad:

I'll check up with 'em later. Yeah, maybe they're just busy. We didn't talk every day anyway, so they're going to contact you again later.

Morgan:

And that's the affair partner.

Brad:

Yeah, that's the affair partner thinking that you don't send, it sends a message to your spouse. I'm not really serious about rebuilding this. I'm not really serious about building this back. And that's

Morgan:

One foot in, one foot out,

Brad:

And that's a dangerous place to be. So like I said earlier, ending the affair, it's vital to creating safety for the injured spouse, the betrayed spouse. They need to know this won't happen again. And that's a big step towards creating that safety. Also, ending the affair is vital to ending your own ambiguity about if you want to stay or not. Many people I've worked with who have been still had contact with the affair partner, whether they worked with them or didn't work with them, but had contact with them, they stayed in that period of ambiguity. We discussed where they were kind of, I don't know if I want to be here, if I want to be out. And so what happened is, is they really guilt developed and a lot of shame developed. And then they felt like, well, you don't deserve me. I'm not a good person. And that's because they've still kept this relationship up, whether the affair was going on or not, they still had some relationship with the affair partner

And they felt guilty about that and they wanted in their marriage because they felt guilty about it themselves. And so they had this overwhelming guilt, I'm not a good person. You don't deserve me, am not good enough for you. And that's the betrayer saying this. And sometimes that comes from them having an ongoing relationship with the affair partner. Maybe it's morphed into a friendship and even that is not healthy. And so that keeps them as time goes on, just feeling like I'm not good enough. I can't do this. You don't deserve me. And in that's really because in part they haven't ended the affair

Morgan:

And they're saying, you don't deserve me. You don't deserve what I'm doing to you. It's not so much you don't deserve me.

Brad:

No, it's not like that at all. Yeah. It's like it's really coming from a place of shame. I'm a bad person

Morgan:

And I've done so many bad things to you. I've

Brad:

Heard even in their spouse is saying, I forgive you. I want to be with you. It comes from that and that happens. And then the other is obviously you can't rebuild trust. I still see you with this person. I still see them emailing you stuff related to work or this or that. And some of you listening to this are just probably flabbergasted thinking, oh my gosh, this happens. Some people, they try to minimize the affair. And

Morgan:

So because rather it disappear than actually handle it or deal with it.

Brad:

Yeah, actually handle it or deal with it. And so there's things like that. There are things like that that happen that have to be clearly dealt with, and we're going to get into that in a second. But you have to cut off the affair so that you as a couple, you and your spouse can move forward in the healing process, rebuild your relationship. And here's the kicker. The involved spouse must cut off all intimate relations with the affair partner. And occasionally people work with the affair partner and they find themselves, you work with this person. So you have to. And in situations like that where you work with them, it's hard to get away. It's hard to get away. But here's one of the things too though, is if that's the situation you're in, you everything, you must not discuss anything personal with them. And you must do

Morgan:

Everything you can to get away from them if you possibly can.

Brad:

Yeah, I would recommend that everything, but you got to keep it business if that's it. And you need to let your spouse know what's going on, they're going to be asking you probably, but you need to let 'em know. And so with that, Morgan, let's get into

Morgan:

The rules for separating from the affair partner, how to do it basically.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

You want to start with the first one?

Brad:

Yeah. The first is allow the betrayed spouse to participate in the severance. And here's why that's important. Allowing the betrayed spouse to have a say in how it is done will help that person find closure as well. Also because the affair involved secrecy, this moment of truth is refreshing. It's important to remember and reinforce that couples are team.

Brad:

Here's the kicker with this though, is I have seen people, they come into my office and say, I ended the affair, but their spouse didn't participate in the severance. They have no idea.

And this person may have, and here's the thing, when you're in an affair, obviously you're lying. You're being dishonest about what's happening, what's going on, and your spouse doesn't know what to believe. And so anything that you say or do, if you say anything like, oh, I did it already, or I told her this or that or told him this or that, they don't know.

Morgan:

There's no

Brad:

Way them knowing. And the idea with this is one of the things is it creates safety. So you really need to let them participate in this. That doesn't mean that they need to write the email for you. That doesn't mean they need to do it for you. That just means if you're going to do it over the phone, you need to do it yourself. Call them over the phone and use your own words and talk to 'em. Your spouse doesn't need to say, oh, John says it's over, so quit calling him. That's not going to work. That doesn't create any safety for them, and it doesn't send the clear message to the affair partner that it's over. And so you have to do it.

Morgan:

They just might be on the other line maybe listening in or standing there, or they might say, well, you really need to tell 'em like this instead of that, because to me, this sounds more like you're cutting it off

Brad:

Versus

Morgan:

I'm doing it for the kids or whatever.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. The second one is make it a clear absolute severance. And so as, as the person who had the affair, there are plenty of ways or a number of ways to separate from the affair partner. And when you do this, you should not leave any glimmer of hope that you are still open to an affair. You have to show them, look, I'm not interested in you. I love my spouse. I want to be with my spouse. I'm doing this because I want to be there

Morgan:

And what we were doing is wrong and I will not be doing it ever again with you or anyone else.

Brad:

And so you have to have this certainty. I am certain about this, and that's expressed through tone of voice, body language and your word choice, the choice of words that you use. Do

Morgan:

Not call me ever again.

Brad:

Yeah, I am done. Do not call me again. I love my wife, I love my husband. And so it has to be with clear severance. And here's why this is so important, why you have to make this clear, why it has to come from the person who had the affair is many times as affairs grow and mature, these things can last not just months, but sometimes a couple of years, sometimes even longer than that. And people feel like they're genuinely in love with this other person. And you may be done, but that other person isn't done yet. And

Morgan:

The betrayer,

Brad:

Well, the affair partner, they're not done yet. And so you have to let them know, look, we are done. There's no us anymore. There's no future. All the things that we talked about, us leaving our spouses to be with each other, that's not going to happen anymore. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be with you. You have to get to that level, not necessarily being cruel. You want to do, be short of being cruel, but you want to be forceful. You want to let 'em know that you're certain about you being

Morgan:

Done. And that leads us to the third one. Do not be cordial or kind when severing the relationship. This should not be a friendly conversation. You don't want to be cruel, but we believe the colder and more absolute the better. In fact, it's cruel to the fair partner if there's even a glimmer of hope that this will ever happen again. So more importantly, it's crucial. Obviously, more importantly, it's crucial to the betrayed spouse, your spouse. So they're not led to believe that unfaithfulness will occur at any point in the future. So yeah, you don't want to be like, well, I don't want to hurt your feelings and I don't want you to feel bad, so good luck to you. No, I'm sorry. This is not ever happening again, right? So don't call me.

Brad:

Yeah. And yeah, it needs to be very, very black and white. I'm done to the point, you're not kind. You're not friendly when you do this. And if you have to work with a person, maybe you're professional, but you're not kind and friendly. You're not sitting around the water cooler anymore. You're not going on lunch breaks,

Morgan:

Obviously, right? You're changing habits. Changing patterns too.

Brad:

Yeah. You're not sending any mixed signals. Sometimes people when just being kind, sometimes that can be interpreted as being flirty or that you have an interest. And so you have to be really, really careful. You're not just being kind that can send the message. I'm still open to you that can send the message of being flirty, that kind of thing. I'm interested. You can't do that. Now when you end this, the fourth part of this is when you do this, you're doing it for love. It's important not to tell the affair partner. The relationship is ending. Our affair is ending for the kids

Brad:

Because of my kids or because I want them to grow up with mom and dad together or because of the commitment you made or out of duty to the family, things like that. Instead, it needs to be because you are emphasizing the love you feel for your spouse,

Morgan:

Right? So definitely it's about you and your spouse that you love your spouse, you want to reconnect with your spouse and that there's no room at all for them in any of that. It's not because they're making me or anything

Brad:

Like that. And also you could emphasize that, look, this was a complete and total mistake. Also using specific language such as Never contact me again. I do not want to talk to you, or I do not want any sort of intimate relationship with you ever again. Things like that, phrases like that. You never contact me again. I don't want to talk to you again. I don't want any sort of intimate relationship or contact,

Brad:

Things Like that. It sends a clear message that I am done

Morgan:

And repeat yourself. You have to stand your ground. Sometimes they might try to remind you of what this or that send you a text or something, got to hold your ground there and you've got to include your spouse. So if they ever did contact you again, maybe next week or next month, next year, whatever, you're completely open and honest. We've talked about that being very honest and forthright.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right. I would say, I don't know what the exact percentages are, but I would say there is a good chance that the affair partner is going to contact you again after you try this. And it's more testing for them. This was an affair as well. This was, or a relationship as well. And maybe they loved you, and so there's a good chance that they're going to try to contact you again. If that happens, you have to let your spouse know about it. Because what will happen is your spouse is probably going to find out, and if you don't tell 'em you're going to be in deeper water and the walls are going to go up, it's going to be harder to rebuild. This going to be less trust, transparency and honesty are the best, especially with this.

Morgan:

So it's like doing the opposite of what you're doing in the secrecy of,

Brad:

Oh yeah, that's a great way to look at it. You're really doing the opposite of how you were in the affair. In the affair. You were very secretive. You were very conniving. You were very dishonest. There was no transparency. Now that you're in a rebuilding phase, you have to be transparent. You have to shine light in the darkness. You have to be honest. You have to expose these secrets that rebuilds this. Now, part of this though is this other person needs to get it. No, in certain terms, you are done. And it has to come from a place of I love my wife. I am with this person. I love my husband. I am choosing to be with him. You are a mistake. And that's where it needs to come from. And here's the other thing I want to emphasize. This is at some point there is a good chance that the affair partner is going to try to make contact. Again, be transparent, be honest. It may cause a ripple effect just because your spouse is going to feel like, gosh, this person's really obsessed with my spouse. But either way, they're probably going to find out and it's going to help rebuild trust because you're bringing that information to them. They're going to see that you're trying, that. You're being honest and transparent. And so that's really important.

Morgan:

And it's just very important to also realize sometimes the out affair partner does seek you out. Sometimes they do have a part to play in this whole affair, and

Brad:

Yeah, they do. And let me share a story. Morgan,

We had a couple by the time they came in, maybe it was about 18 months into the affair, and this was somebody who had moved out, separated, moved out back in several times when I had worked with them, they had gotten to a place where the affair was ended, the marriage was being rebuilt. They both felt like they were really moving better, and the husband worked with her, but I was able to only see her briefly, and he was able to, he had a job where he could do certain things and work out of the office. And one day he had

Morgan:

Work out of the office, office,

Brad:

Home office. He was able to work from

Morgan:

Home.

Brad:

And what I meant to say is he wasn't always in the office, so he was able to work from home. He was doing that. And one day he had to go into the office and he saw this woman and just kind of made eye contact with her, just saw her and then he's back into it again. And then they spent 18 months of trying to get to this place of ending it. And just seeing her one time caused him to

Morgan:

Flip a switch and go back,

Brad:

Flip a switch and go back. Oh, man. And we talked about Limerence before, and I'll just briefly describe it this way. Limerence is, it's kind of romantic love, but more of an addiction to a person where they're like an object and it's an obsession. And that's kind of how he felt about this woman. And he was trying to end. It did really well. The marriage was working moving forward. They were growing together. Trust was being rebuilt. He encounters this, and then they're back into that whole cat and mouse scam again, and it's really devastating. So you have to take this seriously.

Brad:

You don't know where you think you might be. Look, you think you're strong enough to do this, but you're probably not really strong. You weren't strong enough to keep an affair from happening the first time. I know right now this is an emotional place for you. There's a lot of guilt as the betrayer, but you got to really take this seriously. You can't minimize this, and you've got to be very, very careful, and you can't underestimate just where that other person's at. So you have to take this seriously that I've got to end this. I've got to have clear boundaries. I've got to know in certain terms, let them know from my heart that I want to be with my spouse because I love them and I do not want to be with you. You are a mistake.

Morgan:

And it's kind of like going back just a tad bit about limerence. It's like an addiction, very much like an alcoholic. You can't just have one beer all of a sudden that takes you back to your addiction. So it's very important to realize that some, maybe you may have to just cut it off completely depends on you. But the fifth one, right? That's what we're on.

Brad:

Yeah, go ahead, Morgan.

Morgan:

It's don't look back. So basically don't look back. It's important to make a clean break. Sympathizing with the affair partner, trying to soften the significance of the conversation or implying any possibility of a future friendship confuses the affair partner, and it will open the door to more trouble. If your spouse is involved in helping you cut this off, they're going to hear this tone of voice. They're going to hear what you're saying. They're going to hear how you're

Brad:

Saying. They're going to hear what we're telling you to do,

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So they're going to hold you to it.

Morgan:

And that's good because it's helpful. It's going to help you. It's going to help your relationship. It's going to really ultimately do what's best for you in the future. And it's natural for a previously involved spouse to want to check up on the affair partner. But it's important to resist the temptation because a lot of times these relationships, they weren't just fly by night. I mean, these are things that happen over a long period of time sometimes, and so sometimes you want to check up on that person.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, yeah, everybody's curious. You're curious about people that you dated in the past and things like that, but here's the kicker. You had an affair with this Person.

Brad:

Yeah, you had an affair with this person. This is, if you're listening to this and you're working through this, you know how this can destroy your marriage very, very quickly. You don't look back. Block this person on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, other social media. Get this person completely out of your life. It's worth it. Yeah, it's not worth it, and you don't know what it can do. That person again, but it's hurting your spouse as well. You don't know if it's going to trigger something in you where you want to go be with that person again, but it's also not helping rebuild trust for your spouse. The next principle is there should be complete openness and honesty from now on. There should be no more secrecy between the two spouses, between you and your spouse as the betrayer. You must decide to volunteer any communication that may happen between you and your affair partner before being asked to do so.

Morgan:

Oh, that's

Brad:

Key. Yeah, that's really important. That includes text messages, face-to-face interaction, emails or anything else. It is important to avoid any communication with your affair partner, but if or when communication inevitably happens, the betrayer must be quick to share it with his or her spouse. Do not underestimate how helpful this will be if you do this. This will quickly help you guys rebuild things, and so don't underestimate how helpful that can be.

Morgan:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Just being completely open and honest, man, it goes so far, so far. So yes, definitely volunteer that information before you're asked. But what about the next one? Right? We talked about maintaining a safe place, Brad, what is that? How do you maintain a safe place?

Brad:

Well, this is where the hurting spouse, the spouse, he's been betrayed, enters the process. It is very important for betrayed spouses to create an environment that encourages complete honesty. This means that when the spouse comes to them and tells them about communication with the affair partner

Brad:

It's crucial to maintain composure. So as a spouse who's been betrayed, you have to help them feel safe to talk about this because most betrayers don't want to talk about this because they feel like they already feel guilty enough and they don't want to make you hurt anymore.

Brad:

So if you are overreacting, you may be reacting, but your spouse will feel like you're overreacting. This is hurting you. I don't see the point of answering these questions. It's just making it worse. You have to help them feel safe in a sense to be able to talk to you

Morgan:

So that when or if they do get communication from a fair partner, that they know that if they're going to come to you, that you're going to not blow up. You're going to receive it with grace. You may not feel comfortable, but thanking them. Hey, thanks for being open. Thanks for being honest. I appreciate you coming and telling me this. It makes me feel a lot more secure. It makes me feel like you we're really going to make it

And you really can make it, and you really will if you are open and honest and cut that person off. And however they ended up with that story you just told about the guy who went back to work after working from home and just one look at that person kind of sent 'em back to their addiction. I mean, if he were to have just turned around, maybe even got out of there as soon as he could and went home to his wife and said, Hey, I accidentally looked at her. We were in the hallway. This happened, this happened. And your spouse can be that source of healing and can be a safe place.

Brad:

And one of the things with this is those kinds of things grow because they're secret. It just adds fuel to the fire. But one of the things to realize is this is a necessary step that has to be done. You have to cut off this person and the betrayer has to do it. It's best if the betrayed spouse is a part of this process. They're able to listen in and it's best if you say, I'm doing it out of love. You're not being kind or cordial.

Brad:

You're being short of being cruel. You're letting them know you were a mistake. I love my wife. I love my husband. I'm going to be with them. You are a mistake. I don't want to talk to you again.

Morgan:

Right? What we did was wrong

Brad:

And you're done. There's no need to reminisce about the past. Say we had good times, things like that. You're not doing yourself any favors. In fact, what you're doing is you're leaving the door open that you're open,

Morgan:

And what we're really doing here, what we need to do is we need to break the pattern of secrecy and lies. We take a giant step in the direction of healing and turn towards your spouse because they're really going to help you. And if you are the betrayed spouse, you got to help your spouse feel comfortable. It's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's painful, but it's definitely, I mean, when your spouse is coming and turning and doing the opposite and being honest with you, it's really a step in the right direction and healing will come and the pain will subside over time, you say. Yeah,

Brad:

It'll get better. Thanks for listening to Healing Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It's not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 9: 6 Ground Rules for Discussing Infidelity

Brad:

You're dealing with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson. This podcast is where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This podcast is for you. This episode, episode nine is where we talk about ground rules for talking about the affair. And just as a reminder, go to healing broken trust.com/episode nine to download your free resources. Again, that's healing broken trust.com/episode nine. That's the number nine. Download your free resources and walk through those resources as you listen to these episodes. You'll find it's very, very helpful. So let's get started. So Brad, what are we talking about today?

Brad:

Well, today we're going to talk about really the ground rules of how to talk about an affair. We've gotten a lot of emails at people asking basically that question. We're having trouble in this area, so we want to give you guys listening ground rules on how to talk about an affair to really make this the most productive time because how you talk about it really sets the stage of your affair recovery process. And so ground rule number one is just that how the affair is discussed, it's more important than really what you talk

Brad:

About.

Brad:

And this needs to be a process where the discussions are handled in a way where both spouses feel respected and Morgan, so many people talk about an affair and it becomes so in a way counterproductive because there's arguing and fighting about it and people don't really get the healing that they need or they don't heal the way they need to. So what we're talking about is the ground rules and really that main idea how we talk about this, it's so important because it's really even more important than what is said if it's done in a way with caring, compassion, honesty. Honesty is really important. If we have that, it's really going to help us in their fair recovery

Morgan:

Process a lot more successful. And how you talk about it, we'll also shape what is said. I mean if you are just haphazardly talking about it and you just talk forever and ever and ever, it's going to be a lot more difficult to control your emotions. And then in turn, you're going to say a lot of things that are hurtful.

Brad:

And so we're going to have some ground rules. So number one is just knowing this is an important piece of the process and what we say isn't really as important as how we talk about it.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Exactly. And the reason I say it needs to be done in a way that's respectful with compassion is for the injured spouse, we need the betrayer to become the healer for us. And if they feel like this isn't helpful, they're not going to be honest and they're not going to share. And this needs to be productive.

Morgan:

And so it's really important to set aside intentional time to talk about the affair. And that's really ground rule number two, setting aside that time is so important. In the beginning you'll find that you want to talk for hours, but as the process of healing moves forward, you may find that the longer you talk about it in any given period, your conversations begin to be less and less productive.

Brad:

You should schedule time to talk about this because this is one of those things in life, just like exercise or dieting, where if you're not intentional about it, you're probably not going to do it as the betrayer. You're just going to want to avoid it.

Morgan:

Well, you've said at certain points cut it off because it'll be much more productive that

Brad:

Way. And I'm going to get into that later more specifically. But the idea with this is sitting aside, time gives you a break from dealing with the affair and in the beginning of the process of a fair recovery, what you're doing, most people find themselves talking about it for hours as time goes on, especially in the first weeks in the beginning. But as time goes on, people find themselves, we need a break from this. We still got lives to live lead. We still have things that we got to do. We just want to enjoy each other's company and have fun. And so setting aside time where specifically discuss this.

Morgan:

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes those intrusive thoughts that happen with the betrayed spouse, it can be very, very difficult. They can get into this cycle of asking the same question, same question, and then feeling like they're not getting anywhere. So it's kind of difficult if you like something you've said, something I've heard you say is that after 30 minutes, those conversations become kind of unproductive. Is

Brad:

That correct? Yeah. Well, as you go on longer it can be unproductive.

And so the next idea or the next ground rule is that the spouse who had the affair really needs to have what's called a purge session or a vomit session. You really need to get it out. You need to get all the details out, you need to get everything out. And the sooner this comes out, the better. It's always better if the betrayer discloses information rather than an affair partner tells the spouse or they'd stumble upon it. It's always better if that person says, Hey, I had an affair. This is what happened. And gives you the details of it. What's not helpful though is when the spouse who has been betrayed has to be a detective and has to really look for answers. They feel like they're getting stuck. They have to be a detective. They have to look for answers. They have to kind of hunt, they have to snoop around. You're not doing well in the air recovery process if that's happening. And part of that is the injured spouse has such a need to know, and here's what you're doing by talking about this, is you're giving them knowledge that is really healing for them.

It really helps them. I know when I was betrayed in the past, before I married my wife, completely different person. But whenever I had a chance to talk to somebody about this, who knew the other person and that can shine some light on to help me understand this betrayal better, that was the only time I found relief. Many times that's what this is like for people is the only time they find relief is when this is actually being discussed and they feel like they're getting answers about this. And so

Morgan:

It's a lot easier to build trust that way too, if you're being outright honest and open and just very transparent. Yeah,

Brad:

You're exactly right, Morgan, when you're 100% honest, you're being 100% transparent. I have nothing to hide. Here's what I've been doing this

Morgan:

You I volunteering

Brad:

Information and you're willing to do this.

It's not like pulling teeth or you're forced to do this, but you're willing to do it. When you have that, it's a much smoother healing process. This isn't an easy process, but it's much smoother. And so the spouse that's been betrayed, they need to know that's when they find relief. But part of this though is people don't want to really share or they don't want to purge or vomit because they feel like they're actually doing more damage when they do that. But it's like cough medicine. Sure, cough medicine tastes horrible, but it actually makes you feel

Morgan:

Better. Absolutely. And you may notice that the betrayed spouse asks the same questions over and over and it may be a cue that you're not giving enough detail. It's very normal for the betrayed spouse to ask questions, the same questions over and over. But it may be that they're just trying to process it and they learn something new each time. They may hear something a little differently or they may actually, something may sink in the third time that they hear it. But it may also be that cue that you need to give a little more detail. Maybe you need to give a little more information, try not to hold back and try to just be very patient with that because it's going to be a process.

Brad:

And Morgan, before we go on onto the next one, I wanted to just throw this in there. Somebody this last week said, look, I already know the worst part of this. You cheated on me. Nothing else you're going to tell me is worse, as bad as that. And so it's just a lot of the people who have affairs who cheat because they don't want to make matters worse, they don't want to see their spouse hurting. They will basically suppress information and not want to say anything. And so what happens is they're not talking, they're not sharing

Morgan:

That kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Alright, and we're talking about key important steps. Actually we're on the fourth step. They need to volunteer information and the more you volunteer on your own and the less your spouse has to dig for it and dig for it, the better you are in the process of healing. So what would you say is the next one, Brad?

Brad:

Well, the fifth ground rule or one of the ground rules is if the injured spouse attacks the betrayer, the less likely the betrayer is going to be to participate, the less willing they are to participate. And so what happens is, is this gravely injures the couple's ability to recover and that defensive behavior that they have keeps 'em in a posture of self-protection instead of a healing posture, instead of a nurturing, healing, supportive role, they're feeling attacked and they're feeling defensive. They're focused on their own needs. Having an affair is obviously a very, very, very selfish act, very selfish behavior. But what people don't understand is that these people, when they're feeling defensive, they're not in a healing posture, they're still thinking of themselves,

Morgan:

Right? It's like that fight or flight mode where if they're being attacked, the only thing their body knows to do or their mind has to do is I've got to get away from this. I've got to get away from being

Brad:

Attacked. The spouse who had the affair, you have to be honest, you have to be transparent, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. But the spouse who's been betrayed, this doesn't necessarily automatically give you the right to become emotionally abusive or verbally abusive either.

Morgan:

And it's probably very hard not to be.

Brad:

Yeah, it's very hard not to be, and you feel like this is kind of your divine right. You cheated on me, I get to treat you however I want to. An attitude like that is only going to keep you stuck in the recovery process. And let me just say this in the beginning, it's very hard not to feel a sense of entitlement and not just in the beginning, it could be for several months, but having a sense of entitlement, you owe me that, especially when it comes to talking about this. Those are things that you have to work through. But if you have this, you betrayed me, now you have to walk the line, walk the line, walk on eggshells. That long term does not work out into very good marriage. That works short term when recovering from an affair because it helps, but it's not really the way to rebuild a marriage either.

Morgan:

And that also can be helpful when if you start to find yourself going into that process, into that negative cycle, that 30 minutes, keeping it short, will help you to not start becoming that critical, that angry person.

Brad:

Would you say it's the idea of open limitations? You can bring up a question really at any time as time goes on, and there's still the need to talk about this with open limitations. You're able to talk about it at any time, but no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. Really any question, and we're going to talk about in a minute, the types of questions you don't want to get into and ask. And it's really anything that makes you more obsessive, like sexual details or love letters or correspondence of that type. Just seeing I love you, that makes it worse. But what I'm trying to say is if you find yourself talking about this and it's not being productive, you feel like you're getting angry and heated, there is the need to talk about it. But how we talk about it's so important. So

Brad:

If

Brad:

You find yourself really in the first three minutes not getting anywhere talking about this, you're better off taking a break for at least 20 minutes because again, how you talk about it's so much more important than what you talk about. And the reason I say take a break for 20 minutes is our heart rate gets around a hundred beats per minute. We enter that fight or flight mode, and what happens is blood is leaving our brain, it's flowing to our feet, and we're no longer thinking objectively. We're no longer being really rational. And that's when you're more likely to have cases of domestic violence or people punching holes in the wall or just doing whatever, just doing really stupid stuff.

Morgan:

That physiological response,

Brad:

You have a physiological response. And so if you find yourself getting there, what you can do to make this time more productive is take a 20 minute break. You can turn off the lights in the house, turn down the temperature in the house, drink something cold, and doing those things, breathe deeply from your stomach. Yeah, definitely breathing deeply, taking deep breaths like that just in and out, doing at least six deep breaths a minute.

Morgan:

And that's with your

Brad:

Stomach or 10 deep breaths a minute breathing from your stomach area. And all this does is it helps you cool your body down, helps you lower your heart rate. So this becomes more productive. We're dealing with trauma and when we have trauma, heart rate rises quicker. Things are more likely just to kind of snap. Things are more likely to kind of get out of hand. And so if we follow these steps that I'm outlining, it's going to be much more productive. And as the injured spouse, that's going to help you heal much quicker because the betrayer isn't going to think, okay, they're crazy or Why talk about this? You're letting me know when I tell you new

Morgan:

Information.

Brad:

You're going to snap, you're going to snap. And I shouldn't tell you, and this is what you need to know as the betrayer is, the more they know about this, the better they're going to feel and they're actually getting better. Kind of as we said earlier, it's like cough medicine, it tastes horrible and you have to pinch your nose and tilt your head back and you don't want to really do it. But in the couples who do this or the couples who do the best, and that's why we're telling you to do this,

Morgan:

Right? It's like the healing medicine. You're just talking about it. It's

Brad:

Painful and there's not a better way. There's really not a better way. And so

Morgan:

It's worth it.

Brad:

So these are the ground rules. And so that's kind of where we're at.

Morgan:

Okay, so now we're going to talk about,

Brad:

We're talking about ground rule six.

Morgan:

That's right. Ground rule six, which is basically talk about the affair, talk about what's gone on with compassion and care. One major reason we want to keep the discussions to a shorter length of time. It's because it can become very difficult to keep the conversations productive and kind. This goes back to how it's talked about, but we need to keep our cool the best we can, especially as the betrayer when discussing such heed information or really both betrayed and the betrayer. This doesn't mean we don't have bad moments though

Brad:

That's

Morgan:

Expected.

Brad:

And Morgan, you're right with the trauma aspect that we've talked about the last several weeks, there is going to be people snapping. And what I mean by snapping people getting upset easily, you have the exaggerated startle response. You're going to be,

Morgan:

Those nerves are

Brad:

Exposed. Yeah, your nerves, your anxiety, your heart rate increasing, people are going to be upset talking about this. That's not a reason not to talk about it either,

But it needs to be done in a way, the best possible way where people feel safe, people feel secure, that kind of thing. And so part of this, us talking about it with care and compassion is the injured spouse. What I tell people to do in my office is as you talk about this, really journal your anger on the paper journal, invent your feelings on the paper, and it's just as effective as really talking to somebody about it. You talk to somebody, they're going to be able to give you ideas and feedback. You're not going to get that when you journal or write down your feelings about this. But if you turn, like I've mentioned repeatedly throughout our broadcast today, if you turn and direct your anger towards your spouse in this, they're not going to really want to be there to help you no matter how much shame or guilt they feel, their guilt and shame is actually going to keep them from talking to you about it more because they're like, gosh, I've hurt them so bad and I see them getting angry and upset and

Morgan:

I already feel bad.

Brad:

I already feel bad about it. I don't want to make them feel worse. I'm only going to feel worse,

Morgan:

And I feel worse now because I'm making them feel bad.

Brad:

And so what you need to do is really journal about this. And what I mean by journal is just take out a pen, take out sheet of paper or journal book or a diary. Write in that your emotions, your feelings. Write letters to the affair partner. Write letters to your spouse.

Morgan:

Don't send them.

Brad:

Yeah, do not send these letters and take it outside and burn it. Get it all out. Get it all out of your system. Put it all on paper. You're only writing for yourself. It's nothing that your counselor needs to see. It's nothing that your spouse needs to see anybody else needs to see. You can write prayers to God, you can write whatever you want. But the thing is, the process of writing has the same effect on you psychologically as verbally telling somebody that. And so when you first start this though, there is a side effect. You're probably going to be sad for a couple hours and you're probably going to be angry after you do it for a couple hours, maybe even a couple of days. It just kind of depends, but it's just like cough medicine. It helps you deal with it. And like we talked about when we were talking about trauma, you have to deal with this.

Avoiding it is only going to keep you there. And so journaling about this, writing about it, putting it on paper, what that's helping you do is you're getting it out of your mind. You're getting it on paper, you're not thinking about it as much, but it also, it's going to help make these talks that you guys have much more productive because you're not channeling your anger and these negative emotions onto your spouse who's betrayed you. And they're going to feel like, okay, I can talk about this. We can talk about this more. I'm not saying that you should not tell your spouse, I'm really having a bad day. I really feel down. I'm not saying that you should feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your spouse, either one of you, but if we just kind of always unload on them and verbally bash them, and in some cases verbally abuse our spouse, they have no incentive because they feel like they're only doing more damage by talking about this with you.

But if you journal it on paper, put it on paper, it's going to help you find peace, it's going to help you find relief, it's going to help you find really just that peace of mind and it's going to help you have more care and compassion. It's going to make this a much smoother process. So you got to channel this stuff on the paper, and then what you can do is just take it outside and burn it and you can watch it go. It's just going to bring more closure and more peace. And that's something that you're going to have to do several times. It's not a one-time event, but it's going to be something that you do repeatedly throughout the process for the next several months moving forward. But it's going to bring you healing. And the more you do that, the people who do that the most, Morgan, are the ones who get the best care, who get the most out of counseling.

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. I can see that in my own experience. I've found that journaling is very, very helpful. And it's funny that you say that you'll be upset or angry for a few days and you don't even realize it sometimes that, gosh, yeah, I'm in a real poor mood and it makes sense. I just journaled out on this

Brad:

Book, all these feelings. It is bringing things up to the surface, but that's not a reason, in my opinion, that's not a strong enough reason to not do it

Morgan:

Right. It's a good thing because you're purging, you're getting it out.

Brad:

Well, you're getting it out, you're with it, avoiding it keeps you stuck in it. And so this isn't easy. These are simple ideas. It's not easy to work through an affair, but the ideas are simple.

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Doesn't mean they're always easy to do, but doing them will help you recover and give you what you need to do to recover.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

Absolutely. And so basically, journal, journal, journal, the people who do that recover the best. It's going to keep you from getting riled up about this.

Morgan:

Absolutely. And the thing that Brad was talking about with limiting that time that you talk with each other about certain issues, especially if you find yourself going off into getting upset, but as you journal, you can write down the questions or comments, write them down, save them for that time, think them through a little bit because then when that limited time that you have that you've placed that limit, you've placed on your conversations, you're really going to have a more productive conversation. You're really going to have more of your questions answered probably in a more productive way because you've thought them through, you've really written them out and kind of considered, what do I really need to know? What do I really want to know? And then you're able to ask it in a way that's easy for them to answer and for you to follow up and ask further questions to get real answers. So that's a good thing to remember there too.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 10: Why People Cheat, What Makes A Cheater?, What Leads To Infidelity? Why Did This Happen To You?

Brad:

Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else. I'm no longer communicating with you because this negative cycle has beat me up where I'm not asking for my wants and needs.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs and fidelity trust and cheating in your relationship. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. We're on episode 10. We're talking about why do people cheat, why do they cheat? And I think that this one is pretty straightforward. But before we get started, I want to remind you to go to healing broken trust.com/episode 10. That's healing broken trust.com/episode, the number 10, episode 10, and download those free resources that will really help you to walk through this process to truly heal from what you're going through right now. So let's jump into episode 10 and learn why people cheat on our show. We've talked about the different types of affairs, but there is still this looming question of why do people cheat? So Brad, you want to begin to answer this question for our listeners?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, people cheat. There's three primary reasons why people cheat. The first two are not that common, and the third is extremely common. The first reason is sometimes people cheat because they're sex addicts. They have a compulsive tendency to act out. And like all addictions, it's negative impact on the addict and on family members increases as the disorder progresses. And what I mean by that, as people get deeper into this, it gets worse and worse over time. The addict usually has to intensify the addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And let me explain that. When somebody has an addiction, it doesn't satisfy what you start out doing in the beginning, typically doesn't satisfy those urges. So somebody can start with pornography and self-pleasure. A lot of people can stay there who are addicts, but most people will begin to escalate into other things where they start acting out with other people, they start going to prostitutes, they start seeing escorts, they start acting it out. And so over time, the addict will intensify their addictive behavior to achieve the same results. And that's where some affairs come from.

Morgan:

So that fantasy must then become a reality to further satisfy that addiction.

Brad:

And if you think about it, they've been basically viewing pornography. They've been viewing and breaking down mental barriers that most people have to an affair.

Brad:

They're

Brad:

Actually mentally rehearsing an affair when they're viewing pornography. Another thing that's going on is the other type of people who have affairs are the philanders. And I would say that's more an attitude than anything else. And this attitude says there may be something, this attitude of flander, they believe that cheating is okay for them to do. It's something that guys or girls do, and it's more of a rationalization. Okay, just as long as you don't get caught. Sometimes this attitude says there's no way a man or woman is supposed to be monogamous.

Morgan:

It's a myth, right?

Brad:

Yeah, it's a myth. You can't be monogamous,

Morgan:

Which is not true. It's not accurate at all. But they believe that.

Brad:

And this kind of attitude can lead to serial cheating and very flirting behavior, especially when their spouse isn't around. The attitude of the philander says there is nothing wrong with it. They may rationalize what they're doing or saying to themselves, as long as I'm not having sex with them or intercourse with them, it's okay. So kissing is okay. Spending time with them is okay. Sharing intimate parts of my life is okay because I'm not doing X, Y, or Z with them. And of course, they may even believe sex is okay too. Just don't get caught. And I've had different people tell me before that they viewed having an affair as a rite of passage. And it's something that men do as a part of growing up, as a part of maturing their certain

Morgan:

Rites of passages,

Brad:

Certain rites of passage.

Morgan:

And that's what we see in TV and movies all the time. Oh, you're a virgin. That's supposed to be some kind of bad thing.

Brad:

But there's people like that. There's attitudes that affect someone to have an affair, and we're going to get into that in a little bit later. But most individuals I work with, I would describe them as someone who's burnt out in their marriage.

Morgan:

So that's the third category.

Brad:

That's the third category.

Morgan:

Most people fit into the third

Brad:

Category, and we're going to spend most of our time talking about that. But these are people who are burnt out and there are attitudes that affect somebody having an affair. And there's those outside influences, family and friends. Have they had an affair? Have your mom and dad had an affair? If they have, you're more likely to have an affair yourself or coworkers cheating. What are coworkers attitudes about infidelity? What was your family's attitude about infidelity, your friend's attitudes about infidelity and pornography? Like we mentioned earlier, when you're viewing pornography, you are mentally rehearsing an affair. Those are outside influences that affect somebody, make it easier for somebody to cheat. Romance novels. Reading that, you're also mentally rehearsing having an affair. A lot of our entertainment, a lot of movies, a lot of different cultural things that we have, they really do not support the idea of monogamy. And they make infidelity attractive. They make it funny, they make it make it okay, a normal part

Morgan:

Of. So society is what they're telling us, which is not true

Brad:

When you're exactly right about that. So those are attitudes. Those are cultural things. Those are outside influences that make it, that can be associated with family, friends, coworkers, viewing pornography, reading, romance novels or entertainment. Even celebrity culture, it makes it easier for somebody to cheat.

I would even say even certain types of jobs make it easier for people to cheat, especially if you travel for a living, you're in certain professions where it's just easier to cheat. And so affairs really start Morgan here, and I want to get into the root of why people cheat. It really starts with the negative cycle that a couple is in. Most couples I would say are not happy if they're having an affair. The exception with that may be the philanders or the sex addicts. I would say almost everybody else, if they're in this burnt out category, they're not happily married. If they're cheating, I wouldn't classify that as a good marriage. And let me explain the negative cycles, because this is where infidelity starts. There are three kinds of negative cycles. There are the first kinds, the most common kind, and this is a negative cycle where the person who's having the affair is a distancer. They are somebody who is more withdrawn, not very emotionally expressive, typically in the relationship. They avoid. They avoid, and they may not start that way in the relationship though they may get to that place because they feel like they don't matter to their spouse.

Morgan:

They don't know how to ask for wants and needs.

Brad:

They don't know how to get. And so they may get to that point with their spouse. So they may not start that at that place of being a er. They may start at a place of being a pursuer

And a pursuer, and you can go through and listen to our recordings on that. We've talked about that before. So go listen to that. Who are pursuers and who are distancers. But pursuers are the ones who fear being abandoned, fear, rejection. They want to be close. And if they don't get it, they'll escalate their attempts for attention and connection into things like blaming, criticizing, demanding, and distancers are people who will kind of shut down emotionally. They will shut down because they don't think engaging with somebody who's upset with them is going to be that productive. And so that's where negative cycles typically start. And that's the most basic kind. And the person who cheats is a distancer. They're the one distancing from connection

Morgan:

To the relationship and their spouse, right?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

They're more invested in the affair or other things than they are in the relationship at that point, wouldn't you say? Or is that kind of later on?

Brad:

That's later on. But that's true. But that would happen later on. They become more interested in that for right now before the affair even starts. And you can have a pursuer who becomes a distancer. You can have a pursuer who also gets burnt out because they don't feel like they're getting through and they start shutting down emotionally, and then they have their own affairs. So that's where affairs start is that you have a negative cycle. Couples get into, and we've talked about how to get out of negative cycles, we've discussed that. Go listen to that. And so that's where a fair start. Morgan and every relationship has a negative cycle. And that first one, that's the pursuer. Distancer is the most common type of negative cycle. Then there's a negative cycle where couples are basically fighting all the time.

Morgan:

So they're pursuing, pursuing attack. Attack.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, the one who's been distancing feels like they're getting attacked by the pursuer because the pursuer is like, I'm not getting through to you. So they're

Morgan:

Blaming,

Brad:

Criticizing, demanding. It escalates. Then the distancer feels like they're getting their back against the wall, so they'll attack back. But they're primarily a distancer, and so they're just attacking back,

Morgan:

Can't put baby in a corner, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And they may be getting resentful as well. And so that's the second type. Then the third type is really what I would consider a void avoid. And these can be looked at as two different types of situations, but basically what they do is they avoid each other and they can avoid each other. They don't like conflict, they don't like stirring things up. And that can be both of them. So the pursuer, even though they want that connection, they're not really criticizing or blaming because they don't like conflict. So they're stuffing what their feelings are.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

Then the er, they're stuffing what their feelings are and what's going on with them.

Morgan:

And sometimes they think, oh, everything's okay. There's no argument.

Brad:

Well, exactly. They think they're in a strong marriage. And I got to tell you, a lot of people have affairs in this kind of situation

Morgan:

Where one pushing stuffing and they're really not being honest about how they feel.

Brad:

Well, even in the avoid, avoid situation, a lot of people have affairs in that. And then the other type of avoid, avoid affair is an affair where the person who was the original pursuer gets burned out, like I mentioned a moment ago, and they're avoiding, they're distancing, and you have the ER as well. And sometimes the one who was the original pursuer, like I said, they'll get burned out and they'll distance. Then the one who was the original ER will see, oh my gosh, they're pulling away from me. I don't like this much distance between us. Then they can become the pursuer.

Morgan:

So they sort of switch roles.

Brad:

Yeah, they'll switch roles. But basically I'm saying all that to say, well not spend a lot of time on that just to say this. That's where fares start. They start with a negative cycle because a couple does not feel close and people can say they have a good marriage and still have an affair. And I would say for the most part, that's probably hogwash unless there was a sex addiction affair or a flander is affair. And the people who are most likely to say that were probably people who were the avoid, avoid. Well, we never fought,

Morgan:

So we must have had a good relationship, but they weren't close to each other emotionally, they just assumed all relationships were like that. Typically,

Brad:

Yeah, we're good because we don't fight. They may have good communication skills, but they're not really talking about anything

Morgan:

Of significance, of

Brad:

Significance, emotional, their relationship and their feelings. They may be great at communicating about picking up the kids and planning their retirement and things like that, but not what's going on between them as a couple,

Morgan:

That deep emotional intimacy.

Brad:

And so affairs start with the negative cycle. Morgan, this leads into a progression of things that happen. And this doesn't necessarily happen in any chronological order necessarily. These things that I'm discussing, negative cycles create the affairs. Affairs start with a negative cycle, and that leads to the person who's having the affair, who ends up having the affair, feeling like they're burned out, they're tired, they feel beat up by the negative cycle, they end up feeling like they're not good enough for their spouse and because they're tired, because they're burned out, because they're beat up by the negative cycle. They don't ask for their wants and needs.

Morgan:

And I think it's very interesting to point out that you say they're beat up by their negative cycle. A lot of people think well beat up by my spouse, but no, it's beat up by that negative cycle. It's what's happening between you that's wearing you out.

Brad:

What's happening between you that's wearing you out's that negative cycle. And so the spouse will end up not asking for wants and needs. They stop reaching out, they stop communicating. And what happens is resentment develops. Sometimes they're really angry with their spouse, just resentment develops. And that's really important because from there they start feeling alone. They start feeling sad and depressed, they start feeling numb. And what's really happening, Morgan, is they're caring less about their marriage or their relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And so there's these different things that happen because people get beat up by the negative cycle, resentment develops, start feeling alone, start feeling sad and depressed, start feeling numb, and they're starting to care less about maintaining that marriage, maintaining that relationship and their easy fruit for an affair. And the other thing that can happen is they're closed off to their spouse emotionally and they may be seeking connection elsewhere. So sometimes people are easy fruit for somebody else to initiate with

Brad:

Them,

Brad:

But at times people could be resentful enough where they're going to go initiate with somebody else.

Morgan:

Wow.

Brad:

And so that happens as well

Morgan:

And they begin to rationalize, is that right? Rationalize this connection with a friend who is just a friend or just a

Brad:

Coworker. And Morgan, what's happening is if Affairs happened when someone closes a door to their spouse and they open a door to someone else, I'm no longer communicating with you

Because this negative cycle is beating me up or I'm not asking for my wants and needs. What happens is closing a door to their spouse and they're opening a door to someone else, and then they're going to share with them. Contact can be made with the affair partner and sometimes they've been friends with the affair partner all along. So when the betrayer gets involved or the involved spouse gets involved in the affair, it's typically somebody they've known for a while. It's generally not somebody they just met. It's not a one night stand type of thing. Typically it can be though, but they have contact with the affair partner. It's somebody that they may have known all along and the affair makes 'em feel good about themselves.

Morgan:

If there's depression, it lifts the depression.

Brad:

If they've been depressed, they've been feeling alone, they haven't felt attractive. If they haven't been having sex with their spouse and they get this attention from somebody else, they begin to feel good about themselves. They like how they feel. And Morgan talked about before in understanding why affairs happened like we've talked about before in finding meaning. The question to ask to understand why this particular affair happened is to ask how were you different? And that's generally how people feel about themselves. How did you feel about yourself? How were you different? How did you feel differently? How were you different as a person

Morgan:

While the affair was happening,

Brad:

While the affair was happening? What did you like about yourself?

Those are all things for people to consider to talk about because that's generally what's going on. And so far we have a fair start with a negative cycle that leads people to feeling burnt out, tired or feel beat up by that negative cycle. They don't feel like they're good enough for their spouse anymore in a sense. They may already feel rejected by their spouse, maybe even abandoned by their spouse. At times, people do feel that way, and that happens more often than you would think. So they no longer ask for once and needs. There's resentment there. They start feeling alone, they're sad, they're depressed, they feel numb, and then they start caring less about the marriage. Those are the things that can happen in any order that get people to start caring less about their marriage or relationship, and they're easy fruit for an affair

Brad:

To

Brad:

Be picked off or to initiate their own, and they have contact with the affair partner who may be somebody they've known all along. It may not be somebody new, and what can happen from there is they develop feelings for the affair partner or they can fall into limerence,

Morgan:

Which

Brad:

Is a romantic love, love addiction, obsessive love infatuation,

Morgan:

But it's not based on a reality.

Brad:

Yeah, that's not based on a reality,

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

It's based on a fantasy,

Morgan:

But

Brad:

Then they can develop feelings for that person and the affair will be going on. It's happening once the affair is discovered. It can make it difficult for some people to end the affair once they've been caught once they've been found out, but that's the general framework of why people have an affair. A lot of clients have discussed this with people who've been involved in an affair, and I would say the overwhelming majority of people who've cheated, have cheated because of what we talked about just a moment ago, feeling burned out or tired, beat up by the negative cycle, and they even feel beat up by the negative cycle of avoid, avoid because they don't think they matter anymore to their spouse. They feel like they're not good enough. They feel like they're not wanted anymore. They have real concerns about it, and so they go through this progression, this stage of feeling like they can't communicate, they can't share. Their spouse isn't there for them. They're no longer dependable. I can't go to them. They're going to be angry with me. They're going to be upset somehow. I don't make them happy.

Morgan:

Somehow I'll fall short or I'll fail or I won't measure up to their expectations,

Brad:

And part of this is so they go through this serious of progression, this psychology of betrayal. They'll go through the psychology of this mindset of someone who cheats. They'll develop, they'll have contact with the affair partner. The affair will start, feelings will develop for the affair partner. The affair will happen and will be happening. Then once the affair is made known,

Morgan:

Because it always will eventually,

Brad:

Yeah, typically it's more often than not, it's made known. Then Morgan, once it's made known for some people, almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? We'll keep talking about this. Thank you for listening today. Yes, have a wonderful week guys. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 11: Crisis Management, How to Keep It Together When Everything's Falling Apart After The Affair

Brad:

We can really only focus on one thing at a time. And if we let our thoughts run control of us, it's going to control our mood as well. We're going to be stuck in sadness, grief, and hurt. And it's going to be sure it'll always be there until it's completely dealt with. And I'm not saying don't deal with it. I'm just saying at times you got to get to work or times you got to take care of the kids. And these are ways to regain control of yourself.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you are wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. And we're on episode 11 where we're talking about ways to manage the crisis and specifically with this question of how do I keep my world from falling apart after the affair? So that's really important. And quickly, before we move on, I want to remind you to go to healing broken trust.com/episode 11. That's episode and the number 11 to really get the downloads, actually to get the free downloads that we have there for you and gain a better perspective on how to work through this process. All right, so that's Healing Broken trust.com/episode 11. Download those free resources and let's get started. Welcome back. You're listening to Brad and Morgan Robinson, and we are talking about how to recover from an affair. Today we're talking about ways to help you manage the crisis after your spouse's affair, and there's four things we're talking about today, intrusive thoughts, thoughts stopping journaling, and managing depression. Brad, do you want to get us started?

Brad:

Yeah. Many times after an affairs discovered, obviously it's very traumatic, it's very hurtful. Part of, and we've talked about before, this is very, because it is so traumatic, you have a difficult time with obsessive thoughts. And so how you handle those intrusive thoughts, those obsessive thoughts, I want to share a couple things with our listeners on how to do that. Pretty much in almost every case I've worked with on a fair recovery. The spouse or partner who's been betrayed has had obsessive intrusive thoughts. Most of them have also reported a hard time managing the flood of thoughts that came to them. There is a guy named Larry Smith. He's an author and leading the expert on post-traumatic stress disorder and other anxiety disorders. He's developed a few tools to help individuals deal with intrusive thoughts instead of having to turn to drugs or other harmful coping mechanisms to relieve that pain. And one of the things that he's developed is really grounding your body.

Brad:

And

Brad:

Let me explain this, grounding yourself and grounding your body. Grounding yourself means doing things that bring you back to the present. Instead of focusing on the past and letting your mind into the affair, you're focused on the here and now, you're learning and practicing. This will help you gain a sense of control over intrusive thoughts from the past. And it frees you from worrying about the affair happening again. And there are multiple ways to do this, and one of those is grounding your body with grounding your body. You're noticing what your body is doing without passing judgment on what your body feels like. So for example, if your breathing is shallow and rapid, or if your stomach is in knot, you focus on the breathing slowly and evenly, especially if you are hyperventilating.

Brad:

You

Brad:

Want to touch the fabric of your clothes or an object close to you and focus on what it feels like. Part of grounding your body is to stomp your feet or push them down, or you could rub your elbow or wiggle your toes. Tensing and releasing different muscle groups is another effective way to ground your body.

Brad:

And

Brad:

So you're getting more in touch with what's happening. You're not passing judgment on it, and you're paying attention to it,

Morgan:

And

Brad:

It actually helps you feel better,

Morgan:

Right? Because oftentimes you can drift, your mind can wander, and you can feel your body getting tense and tightening up. But if you say, oh, I'm going there again, and you start to come to the present moment and feel your body in the now, then you're starting to slow your breathing and you're starting to really relax, and it's going to take you away from the stress and those intrusive thoughts. Is that the idea?

Brad:

That's the idea. And that will help with the intrusive

Morgan:

Thoughts.

Brad:

Another way to help with the intrusive thoughts is, and I know what I just said, on grounding yourself, grounding your body. That sounds bizarre. Try it. Just try it and see and do it for a little bit and see what kind of results you get.

Morgan:

And if you feel awkward doing it on your own, maybe go to a yoga class or a breathing class and just practice relaxing. Maybe even get a CD with relaxing music

Brad:

On how to relax, and that'll be very helpful.

Morgan:

Very helpful.

Brad:

Another way to handle intrusive thoughts is what's called thought stopping.

And with this, what you do is you just tell yourself, stop it. I'm not going to think about this. Stop again. This will be probably difficult in the beginning, the immediate aftermath because you're still very much a crisis. But as time goes on and as you get better, you can start choosing what your thoughts are going to be with thought stopping. You want to basically tell yourself, stop it. Then select half predetermined thoughts that you're already going to choose. You can have scripture verses on a note card. You can have lines of poetry. You can have your goals written down. You can have affirmations written down. You want to have something predetermined that is going to make you feel better and that you can say to yourself, instead of having these wild thoughts control your mind, you can just say these things out loud to yourself. And it can be a prayer that's written down or a prayer book that you have, and you can just read it out loud and it'll help you start controlling your thoughts and regain mastery over 'em. And it's not controlling you.

Morgan:

Right. And it's helpful to say it out loud as well. Very helpful. Say, Nope, stop. I'm not going to, Nope. I'm not going to think of that. Stop now and think on the things you want.

Brad:

Yeah, because we can really only focus on one thing at a time, and if we let our thoughts run control of us, it's going to control our mood as well. We're going to be stuck in sadness, grief, and hurt. And it's going to be sure it'll always be there until it's completely dealt with. And I'm not saying don't deal with it. I'm just saying at times, you got to go to work or times you got to take care of the kids. And these are ways to regain control of yourself.

Morgan:

Yes.

Brad:

And so thought stomping is very helpful. Handling those intrusive thoughts with the grounding yourself and grounding your body, that's also helpful.

Morgan:

Right.

Brad:

And another helpful way, Morgan, do you want to share that with us? Sure.

Morgan:

Yes.

Brad:

This is

Morgan:

Journaling. Journaling. Journaling is very helpful. I personally enjoy journaling, but there's a social psychologist, Dr. James Pennebaker's, and he did research that identified two traits of individuals who cope well along the journey to recovery, an outlet for their feelings and a mindset about the trauma that fosters closure and clarity. So he talks about that, and he believes journaling can help with that. Dr. Pennebaker found that those who confided their emotional wounds in writing experienced dips in their mood as they were writing, but ultimately felt significantly happier and less anxious than the students who did not spend time journaling.

Brad:

And he did a study with one of his classes and he had his students do that.

Morgan:

Oh, true. Yes, yes. So journaling reportedly gave the students and the people that he worked with increased clarity about their trauma and brought them to a place where they could think about it more easily. And the exercise also improved function and participant's immune systems, which is amazing. Dr. Pennebaker concluded that confiding helps individuals confront, understand, and mentally organize the trauma, lessening its damaging effects. So that's pretty amazing. And I think if you're putting those feelings and thoughts onto paper, it's almost taking it off your shoulders. And I could imagine that would help your immune system.

Brad:

It really does. It's

Morgan:

Amazing.

Brad:

And Morgan, there's some different ways that journaling can become more effective. When you do begin to journal,

Brad:

You

Brad:

Really want to remove distractions. It's important to locate a fairly secluded space where your focus won't be impeded by people noises or other distracting stimuli.

Morgan:

And you want to be consistent. Consistent is consistency is very important. And I remember Dr. Pennebaker recommends journaling for 15 to 30 minutes on four to five consecutive days.

Brad:

And that's really important. And just being consistent with it because it'll help you. Sure, you might feel a little worse when you're riding, but when you're going to feel better because you're dealing with it, you're not putting the pain away, you're not putting the trauma away,

Morgan:

You're stuffing, you're not stuffing it. Yeah,

Brad:

You're not stuffing it. Sometimes moving past this is like hugging a cactus. I tell people, you go out and lost in the desert and you've got a terrible sunburn on you and you're dehydrated and you meet a person that lives in the desert, and this person is not wearing very much clothes. They look like they, they're also skin burned, but it's not destroying them. It's not peeling, it's not painful. And they told you how they got better. They said, see that cactus over there? I went over there and hugged it. I helped my skin, it healed my skin, and I no longer felt dehydrated, and I can survive in this desert. And in a way, that's what this is like. We're hugging a cactus when we're journaling, when we're dealing with the affair, when we're talking about it with our spouse is it feels horrible when we're doing it. And you got to squeeze that cactus tight. You got to wrap your arms around it, and you got to bear hug it, and it's penetrates your skin and it's already sunburned and you're dehydrated. But when you're doing that, it has healing energy and has healing properties to it.

And that's what we're doing. And lo and behold, you get better. You start feeling better. And that's what fair recovery is in a lot of ways. You're hugging a cactus,

Morgan:

And I really like the next thing. Inspiration, beginning with the traumatic event can spur the flow of writing as long as it's not a topic that's so upsetting that it becomes a distraction. Sometimes you can use a journal that has topics to write on. I'm sure there are a lot of helpful journals out there.

Brad:

And Morgan, that brings up the idea of being honest. This is your journal. It's a wonderful outlet to address topics you often think about but are too uncomfortable to admit to yourself or too embarrassed to discuss out loud writing can sometimes help you make sense of your feelings and therefore deal with your trauma in a way that conversation or internalizing simply cannot do.

And you're writing for yourself. And so it's important that this is also very private. It's important to write with no one's thoughts, opinions, or approval in mind, but your own in order to ensure total honesty. And some of this, because there is heightened emotion there when you're writing about something as difficult and painful as an affair is, even though you may feel strong emotion for a short period after journaling, most people do report having felt a sense of relief and peace as the long-term effects of journaling. Most people report feeling sense of peace as the long-term effect of journaling.

Morgan:

Right? And so having a clean slate, this is a valuable opportunity to cleanse your mind of worries. And many have experienced relief from insomnia by journaling before they go to sleep, which is really nice. Kind of gets all those crowded thoughts off your head, off your plate. However, journaling can sometimes trigger painful thoughts like you're talking about, and reminders. So it's important to use discretion and feel free to stop journaling at any time if it becomes too difficult. Just

Brad:

That's important.

Morgan:

Keep in touch with yourself.

Brad:

Yeah, that's important. You don't want to squeeze that cactus too strong, but it's still going to help you capitalizing. It's important to supplement journaling with therapy. It does not replace the value, the valuable help of a trained professional counselor.

Morgan:

Right? That's important.

Brad:

Yeah. It's not a supplement supplements. It's not a replacement. And another thing you need to do with this is take action. If journaling has helped you identify an unhealthy influence or pattern in your life, take steps to confront this issue in a healthy, productive way to incite positive change in your life.

Morgan:

And that's one thing that a counselor can do as well, help you to take those steps and to iron out what to do next. And another is finding closure. Journaling is an excellent way to close a chapter of the past and move forward with peace and clarity. Dr. Pennebaker says that as a rule, if a person can express their feelings about the past and see the events in a different light, he or she will mentally rehearse it less often, so it'll be less intrusive.

Brad:

And that's important, Morgan. It does help you find closure. I want to share a story real quick with a couple I've worked with. This is a situation where the wife was betrayed and the husband wanted to leave and she began to journal. And I'm really proud of her because I've seen a lot of people lose her Cool in that type of situation. And she said what helped her not lose her cool was she began to journal. She began to write. Instead of venting to other people and doing all that and trying to get ahold of him, she began to journal. And that really helped her just get this out of her system. So this journaling, it's very valuable.

Morgan:

And something that we've mentioned in the past that some people find very helpful is they might write it down on paper and take it out in the backyard and burn it or dig it in the fireplace and have a, let's get rid of this, these feelings, bonfire

Brad:

And Morgan, that's important. I'm glad you're bringing that up because people when they do journal and you really want to destroy it after you write it and you can destroy it by burning it, tying it to a balloon and watching it float away, that's a

Morgan:

Good one.

Brad:

And there's a psychological effect where it's getting lifted off your shoulders, you're beginning to feel better. And with journaling, you can also write prayers out to God. You can also write that person who's betrayed you a letter. You can write the affair, partner a letter, but don't send those types of letters. I had somebody that one time journaled and she said, those letters you're supposed to write, but not send 'em to anybody while I did.

Morgan:

Oh gosh.

Brad:

And all this, it was really bad because they had, shortly after that, there was a family wedding and this was a family member, and it really kind caused a big stink and a big fuss. You're going to say some things that you need to be very honest about. These are not the type of things that you need to give to somebody or let somebody else see. So after you write it, I think it's best to destroy it. I've also journaled, and I've used this just sometimes with daily stress, and I left it on the kitchen table every time I walked by it in the kitchen table for a week. I was just annoyed. I just saw it and it triggered where I got really annoyed. So if you do this and you really should, you need to destroy it or put it in a place that nobody can find it, and good ways to destroy, it's to burn it, cut it up, flush it down the toilet, or tie it to a balloon and watch it float away. And there's a psychological effect where you're seeing it go and you feel released, and it does help you feel better.

And maybe those feelings will come back, maybe be less intense, keep journaling again. It's going to help you with that. And so that's really important. You need to at least try journaling a few times before you just roll it out completely.

Morgan:

Good points.

Brad:

Morgan, the other topic I want to discuss today, and this is very helpful, is depression. After someone's betrayed, there can be a lot of depression, obviously, and for most people there is significant amounts of depression and also depression can lead to somebody having an affair. Sometimes the betrayer was depressed,

Maybe not major depression, but at least a mild depression. We've seen that quite a lot. Yeah, we have. And here's how depression can play out in your relationship. The depressed partner will typically withdraw out of the relationship because they're depressed. The other person, the non-depressed partner, will feel frustrated and powerless to make a difference. And they will respond usually with frustration and criticism, which makes the depression worse. And depression can feed the negative cycle in that relationship. So if you're depressed, the more critical you become or the more you'll withdraw. And many depressed people want to change their surroundings, and that sometimes means leaving the marriage. And depression is common right before an affair. It's a precursor to an affair. And so people who are depressed tend to be critical and irritable or they're withdrawn and they shut down. And how if you're married to someone who has depression, the most common way that that spouse is described is they're lazy. That's the best description that's given of them.

Morgan:

And sometimes we've heard where people, they sometimes seek an antidote to their depression because their mood is so low and the chemicals are so low. Sometimes an affair can pull them out of that depression for a temporary time.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Limerence depressed, you meet somebody, it feels good because

Morgan:

Those chemicals

Brad:

That

Morgan:

Are released in the brain, it kind

Brad:

Of exactly

Morgan:

Takes away the depression for a time. So they become somewhat addicted to it sometimes.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. There's also, now, if you're depressed or if your spouse is depressed, you need to know that being critical and judgmental makes it harder for your spouse or partner to recover. And 50 to 70% of all mothers suffer from postpartum depression. Wow, that's a high number there. Yeah. That's really high depression. It disrupts sleep and sexual desire. And many times conflict is simply caused because one of the spouses is depressed, they're critical, they're irritable or they're withdrawn. And so also there are, when someone is depressed, they have a hard time expressing their needs. They have a hard time accepting anything

Morgan:

From

Brad:

Their partner, and that's really important.

Morgan:

That is right. And so kind of the symptoms of depression, a few of them are difficulty concentrating, remembering details and making decisions. Persistent sadness, anxiety or feelings of emptiness, persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps or digestive problems that just don't ease with treatment. Fatigue and decreased energy, feelings of guilt, worthlessness or helplessness, feelings of hopelessness and or pessimism. Sometimes people say they have insomnia or early morning wakefulness or issues with excessive sleeping. There's irritability and restlessness like you had talked about, loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex overeating and appetite loss. And of course, we're not diagnosing anyone. These are just some symptoms that people who are depressed, they do experience.

Brad:

And if you're depressed, obviously getting help for that is really important. And it's important to remember that depression is common. If you have it, you're not weak, you're human, and it's treatable.

Morgan:

There's different types of depression, so there are some that need medication and some that Some are just situational, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And exactly. And part of this is getting help. Depression is common, is treatable. Here's some things that you can do that may be helpful. One of those is professional help. If you're depressed and it's causing you to have an affair, you may need professional help. If you're also depressed after your partner's affair and that depression isn't lifting, you may need professional

Brad:

Help.

Brad:

And so here's some things that you can do. One of those is just taking a warm bath. Warm water helps with depression.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

That's important.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Physical activity. You need to get moving. You need to go to the gym, even going with your spouse or a friend going, walking. But physical activity will help with depression, and that's huge.

Morgan:

We talked about journaling as well,

Brad:

Right? Yeah. Journaling will help with depression and finding ways of connecting with your spouse. If you can do that around physical activity, that's great. If your spouse is too depressed and they don't want to walk with you, give them the room to have that ability to say, no, I don't want to walk right now.

Morgan:

And don't believe that always. It's personal. Depression is not really personal typically.

Brad:

And that's what people typically, they feel like, gosh, why are you upset? Why are you this way? I can't shake you out of this many times. What

Morgan:

Did I do wrong?

Brad:

Yeah, what did I do wrong? Cause you always blah, blah, blah. You always acted this way. And the non-depressed spouse will feel like it's personal when really it's not. They're really stuck in a very depressive state. And so what's really neat is how getting a pet can help people who are depressed feel better. Many times people who are depressed connect better with animals and with people. So getting a pet is helpful.

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah. Accepting appreciation and giving appreciation back to your spouse. This can be hard. You need to practice small things. Often express appreciation after appreciation at least one time a day or the first week. So expressing appreciation.

Brad:

Appreciation is important.

Morgan:

It's very helpful

Brad:

Because if you're depressed, you're typically critical of yourself and you have negative thoughts. And so hearing somebody else appreciate you, it's really important. Another thing is just check in with each other. Ask how each other's days are going. Discuss how events are going. Listen, don't judge. Don't try to give advice and fix. Just listen. And also, Morgan, I like what you said about appreciating, but another thing is encourage your spouse to have dreams and to follow them. Encourage them to have goals. And because depressed spouses typically don't feel like they're entitled to have any dreams, depressed, people often don't feel like they can voice their dreams because they don't feel like they deserve to have any dreams.

Morgan:

Gosh.

Brad:

And so encourage your spouse to follow their dreams and to have 'em and have fun together. You need to go out and have fun together. You're trying to go on it and have a good time. Don't be cranky and mean. Don't run the mood.

Morgan:

Try not to at

Brad:

Least. But yeah, go out and have fun together. That's really important.

Morgan:

Get around friends and family are supportive and connect with them. Getting around anyone will help you. You can't be isolated. It just adds to the depression.

Brad:

And Morgan, that's really good advice because most of the time depression follows a feeling of loss and isolation. So if you can get around people that'll help.

Morgan:

And it's a deep introspection that is negative.

Brad:

Exactly.

Morgan:

So set priorities and simplify tasks to reduce the stress, make it simple and just make time for activities you enjoy. Get about eight hours of sleep a night, so enough sleep can help, but don't get too much sleep. Try to get out of bed, eat more healthy foods and take vitamin D. That can be very helpful.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, you're right about that. With getting eight hours of sleep a night, this is really interesting. The lack of sleep is the basis of all mood disorders.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And they did some studies on this. If you go 30 days without eight hours every night, if you go 30 days without eight hours of sleep every night, that could trigger major depression. And they've done studies on this where if you don't have any stimulants like energy drinks or caffeine and you got six hours of sleep for 30 days, most people would be very depressed. But of course in our culture, we're taking caffeine and stimulants and coffee and different things like that, energy drinks. So we're not seeing, we may not have that quite that impact, but if you didn't have any of that, you would be. And so it's really important just to take that, to get enough sleep. 60 minutes did a special some years ago, or they did a topic on lack of sleep, a show on lack of sleep. And what they discovered was, what they reported was if you go six days without eight hours of sleep, if you get six hours of sleep or seven hours, you're in a pre-diabetic state. That's right. If you only go a week, and they did lab rats where if they didn't get sleep for a week, it killed them.

Morgan:

So

Brad:

Sleep is really important to our health. We don't know a whole lot about it, but we do know that the basis of mood disorders is really a lack of sleep. And so getting enough sleep is really important.

Morgan:

So don't medicate yourself with caffeine. That's a big problem.

Brad:

And getting enough sleep and really eating, like you mentioned, healthy foods, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, taking vitamin E, like you said,

Morgan:

They talk about St. John's wart as well for depression. That's very helpful.

Brad:

Fish oil, St. John's Wart, those are some things. If medication isn't something you want to do, those are natural alternatives. And again, set goals for yourself. Someone once said, happiness is the pursuit of a goal moving forward, having something that you're working towards, it creates those positive endorphins. You're feeling happy working towards a goal, and again, get professional help

Morgan:

And having a secure base with one that you love, your spouse really helps. If you guys can work together, you can really defeat depression. There's a lot that you can do.

Brad:

And Morgan, let me say this, we're out of time, but let me say this. One of the most important things that you can do with depression is to get treatment. Part of what we're talking about is overcoming trauma. I heard this from someone, I can't give our listeners who said this, but they were talking about how effective treating trauma is. They said it's 10 times more effective if you go to individual therapy than if you just take medication for it.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And so get individual help. If you have it, it's not going to go away on its own. You're not weak. Everybody has dealt with it at some point in their life. It's understandable that you're going to have depression after an affair, get help for it.

Morgan:

And couples counseling is also very helpful for relieving depression,

Brad:

Of course. And in fact, that's one of the best ways to relieve depression

Morgan:

Because how much better would it be to have your spouse there hearing where you're coming from, hearing what's happening for you, so that when you leave the counselor's office, you have someone there to work it out with you to be there as a support system. It's huge. In some ways, it can be just as helpful, if not more helpful than individual counseling because you do have a partner there to work through with you.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing Broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice. I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 12: Should I Stay Or Go? What To Do When You're Not Sure You Want To Save The Relationship. The One Thing Holding You Back From Progress.

Brad:

How will the children suffer from a breakup of your marriage?

Morgan:

Yeah, those

Brad:

Are good because it would be a disaster scenario. And I'm a product of a broken home. My father cheated on my mother and they were divorced. It was a disaster after that. And so you need to think about the kids as well.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs and fidelity trust and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you. And we're officially on episode number 12 and we're talking about should I stay or should I go? And that's a really important question because people really struggle with that. Should I stay? Should I go, should I work on this? Should I not? Is it going to work? Can we fix this? So we're going to talk about this in episode 12, and I want to encourage you to go over to healing broken trust.com/episode 12. That's Healing broken trust.com/episode and the number 12, and download those free resources so that you can get some help. Really, we want to help you through this process and it's a great way to expedite healing and to help you through this process. So go to healing broken trust.com/episode 12. And let's get started.

Brad:

You're listening to How to Recover From An Affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. I'm Brad Robinson.

Morgan:

And I'm Morgan Robinson. And today we're talking about handling the ambiguous feelings and questions about staying or leaving after infidelity in the relationship. This is a very important topic and basically the emotional storm that occurs after betrayed spouses find out about the affair causes a very intense emotional disorientation. And we strongly recommend that couples wait six to 12 weeks after discovering the affair before they decide that they're completely done with their mate. One of the common feelings after learning about an affair is shock. After that period, reality begins to set in allowing plenty of time to make the decision, ensures that the decision will be easier to live with. Right, Brad?

Brad:

Yeah, and Morgan, that's why we asked for couples and individuals who've been affected by this to really give themselves six to 12 weeks before they decide they're done. And Morgan, there's a couple that I've worked with where then they've been married for 20 years. The wife had an emotional affair with a boyfriend that she met from high school. This was somebody that she met on Facebook. And for this couple and almost all couples after an affair, there is this period of questioning if they want to stay married or divorced. And that period can take several days or several months.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And it can make it harder to heal when you're stuck in this place of uncertainty. Do I want to be here or not? And that's really important because the longer somebody's uncertain about wanting to stay or heal, it's harder for them to be a supporter and a nurturer for their spouse because they're still stuck on themselves. They haven't made the full commitment recommitment back into the marriage. And so the spouse who's been betrayed is really wavering

Morgan:

Right back and forth. And during this time, emotions are all over the map. They're emotions like anger, guilt, disgust, shame, humiliation and fear because emotions are heightened and will eventually subside. Our advice is to not make any major life decisions right now while the ability to think clearly and rationalize as compromised, including the decision to leave. Most people who decide to leave after an affair without trying to work things out first will later, usually later regret not trying to sort through the mess.

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

So both Go ahead.

Brad:

Yeah, you're right, Morgan. Because they regret not trying the effort. It's the what if we could have made it

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

I'll never know. So I'm in favor of trying to make it work.

Morgan:

Yeah, absolutely. And you have to consider too, if you're not willing to at least heal from what happened, a lot of times you bring that baggage into the next relationship. If you do decide to get remarried again.

Morgan:

Yeah, you

Morgan:

Can. You really don't. If you haven't worked through those problems, you can really cause more problems in the next relationship. But those who do try to work on the marriage and if they later divorce, rarely regret trying to work on the marriage, they don't regret it. A lot of times because of what I just said, you are healing as a person, as an individual, as well as the relationship

Brad:

They find sane and trying to work on the marriage, brought them closure

Morgan:

And

Brad:

Help them have peace of mind about leaving.

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

And so Morgan, my advice to couples is to make the effort to work this out while they have the opportunity instead of facing regret in the future. And several months ago, I had a worked with a couple who'd been married for 10 years. The husband was a high level executive in his company who did a lot of traveling.

Morgan:

His

Brad:

Wife was suspicious, discovered the affair. He initially lied about the affair, blowing it off as just a friend. When they came to see me, they both were debating about whether to continue the marriage or end it. My advice to them is the same advice I'm giving to our listeners. He wanted to try to make it work, and he followed my advice very well, but she felt like she would be better off without him and let him know she didn't want to continue the marriage. That was the last I saw of them. And this is a woman who felt like God was telling her who need to leave him because I'm going to give you a ministry to help other women who've experienced this. Well, how come she couldn't have a ministry? That was one where they reconciled

Morgan:

And there was healing involved

Brad:

And healing and not just, well, I'm going to be done

Morgan:

Because

Brad:

I don't financially need you. So the wife later called her office and said that her husband had left her for the other woman.

Morgan:

Right? I spoke with her that day, I remember,

Brad:

But isn't what happened at all. He wanted to try to fix the marriage and repair it because of the strong emotions associated with this. She decided she was done without really trying to salvage what was left of their marriage. When she called, she was filled with regret because she didn't take the time to make a well-thought out decision that she could live with.

Morgan:

That was a really sad day. I remember that. So like this client, the initial reaction of many people is to say the marriage is over after affair is discovered, but calling it quits, that's a bit premature and shortsighted in a lot of ways, and most people do work it out. But putting effort into saving the marriage and being a loving, supportive partner can really help spouses feel like they gave their marriage the best chance they could. And once they start seeing improvement and feeling like their marriage is moving ahead in a positive way, their commitment will likely increase. So a lot of people just can't see the forest from the trees in the beginning.

Brad:

And Morgan something, and this is really important for those of you listening, when you are discussing the future of the marriage, if you're spending time talking with friends, you want to talk to friends and family who are friends of the marriage. And by that term, I mean people who are pro-marriage are objective, who realize there's two sides to every

Brad:

Story.

Brad:

It's really funny if you listen to somebody, we had this happen recently with us where somebody was talking to, and it's not even about a relationship issue as a couple. It was just somebody, we knew both of them, and they were talking to us about a work situation they were in, and one person was talking to us about it and made the other person sound horrible. And then you hear the other person talk about it, you get more of a well-rounded picture of the whole thing. There's two sides to every story. And you need to talk. If you're going to talk to anybody, you want to talk to people who know that there's two sides to every story who have a well-rounded perspective on things,

Morgan:

And they're pro your relationship and pro-marriage.

Brad:

Yeah. And they want to see you guys work out. And so unfortunately though a few people understand how affairs work and how they occur and how to heal from

Morgan:

One.

Brad:

And so friends and family members can express strong reactions and opinions about what the couple should do with the affair. So they're going to really let you know.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So those reactions can affect your decision making. But we encourage you to remember that you are the only one who's going to live with the outcome of this decision, and therefore the decision is yours alone.

Morgan:

Exactly. Exactly. And during this six to 12 week period of ambiguity where you're not sure should you stay, should you go, what should you do? Another helpful step is to read as much as you can about affairs and the process. Listen to our recordings and read and learn about how to heal from an affair. You never know what one idea or key piece of information will impact your perspective. So keep that in

Brad:

Mind. That's good advice,

Morgan:

Morgan.

Brad:

Now I want to give our listeners some different questions that they need to work through and ask themselves. And so as you're listening to this, you may want to pull out a pad of paper and a pen. Write these down, think on paper and

Morgan:

Try not to be driving at the moment.

Brad:

And you can re-listen to this over and over again and just try to sort this out. The clearer this is, the better this decision you'll be able to work with and live with. And so here's something that you need to consider and questions you need to ask yourself. You really want to see the future. You want to speculate what the future will be like for you without your spouse. So what will life be like without this person? What's going to happen in the immediate future, five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now without this person in my life? So look down the road as far as you can and speculate what it would be like without your spouse.

Morgan:

How would your life be different?

Brad:

How would your children's lives be different?

Morgan:

How would your current friendships be different?

Brad:

How would you manage family events separately?

Morgan:

How would the following be different for you in the future? How would having fun be different? How would religion or spiritual connections be different? How would activities, interests, or hobbies you share, how would that be different personal goals and dreams? What would change about those? How would those be different?

Brad:

And you also want to look at the past. You don't want to let current emotions keep you from seeing your past objectively. And what can happen is when things are a little bit more negative, 51% negative, people will rewrite their relationship history and see it more negative

Morgan:

Kind of through these negative sunglasses.

Brad:

Yeah, these negative glasses. And so you need to ask yourself, what do you remember about the good times you shared with your partner?

Morgan:

What would you miss about your marriage?

Brad:

What do you value about you and your partner as a couple?

Morgan:

What is your marriage like at its best? And at its worst,

Brad:

What particular qualities of your partner do you value?

Morgan:

What positive qualities does your partner bring out in you?

Brad:

Have you and your spouse struggled together to get to this place in your life?

Morgan:

What are the qualities you don't care for in your partner? And about the marriage? What did you contribute? And what ways did you two work as a team or not work as a team?

Brad:

What negative impact does divorcing have on your spouse? What negative impact does the divorce have on you? What negative impact does divorce have on your family, on your work, on your friends, et cetera,

Morgan:

Right? And putting your hurt aside, trying to set that aside for a moment. What are the reasons for staying with your spouse?

Brad:

Look past the affair. Do you love your spouse? And again, it's normal to not like or even despise the person after they've had an affair,

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

But do you love your spouse?

Morgan:

Right? At a fundamental level, do you like your spouse as a person, even before the affair? Did you like your spouse? When did you like your spouse the most? Try to reimagine your wedding day. Try to go back to that place when you were really the closest.

Brad:

Are you and your spouse somewhat compatible?

Morgan:

Exactly. And the fourth one, are you willing to work on the marriage? Are you willing to work on it?

Brad:

And are you willing to work towards forgiveness for what may have been done to injure your spouse?

Morgan:

Are you willing to understand what vulnerabilities may have been present for an affair to even happen? Right?

Brad:

Yeah. And Morgan, something that's really important with this is we're talking about compatibility. Do you love them? Many people will say, I love them, but I'm not in love with them. And what you need to understand if that's how you feel is an affair, is a tremendous opportunity for growth. Sure, there's a lot of remorse, pain, shame, chaos, but it's tremendous opportunity for growth. It's that you are working on marriage number two, you are in round two of your marriage.

Morgan:

You're

Brad:

Working on this and you can rebuild it. Marriage number one is dead.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So you guys have a say in both of you, rebuilding this from the ground up, changing things. And that's important. So it's not like, okay, I don't love this person. Now I got to go back to 'em. Right? You can change how you feel towards this person,

Morgan:

Right? By the choices that you make.

Brad:

You can regain your feelings for them if you are the one who had the affair or if you're the one who's been betrayed. And so that's really important to understand that.

Morgan:

Yeah, don't let temporary and present emotion keep you from working on this because romance can be rebuilt. Questions for the injured spouse to ask. Here's some questions for the injured spouse. The first one is ask yourself whether this affair is part of something larger such as a pattern of lying and cheating in your spouse, right?

Brad:

That's important to look at the larger pattern. What kind of pattern is here

Morgan:

Exactly?

Brad:

Have they cheated before?

Morgan:

Right? Can you trust your spouse to tell you the truth about other things?

Brad:

Can you depend on and trust your spouse for other things?

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

Does your spouse understand your pain from this?

Morgan:

Right? They may not initially be understanding, but feel like you are overreacting possibly. But if they are listening to this and they're listening to what we have to say and they're reading about it, they'll start to understand better the trauma and the emotions surrounding an affair. But is your spouse willing to help you heal and move forward?

Brad:

Is your spouse willing to be part of the solution and moving the marriage forward?

Morgan:

Is your spouse genuinely remorseful for the affair?

Brad:

Is your spouse willing to learn from this and implement what he or she is learning?

Morgan:

And the next one is your spouse willing to acknowledge attractions to the opposite sex as normal and willing to discuss these temptations in the future.

Brad:

That's important.

Morgan:

That's very important. Being honest and open.

Brad:

Is your spouse willing to make a commitment to honesty about everything pertaining to your relationship? Does that even seem reasonable to you, them being completely honest about everything pertaining to the relationship?

Morgan:

And something to think about is that changes like these don't happen overnight, but is there a general movement in this direction? For the previous questions two through eight, are they moving in that direction?

Brad:

If you were to split for good,

Morgan:

Describe

Brad:

The disaster scenario that could follow. How will the children suffer from a breakup of your marriage? Yeah,

Morgan:

Those are pretty

Brad:

Good. It would be a disaster scenario. And I'm a product of a broken home. My father cheated on my mother and they were divorced. It was a disaster after that. And so you'd need to think about the kids as well.

Morgan:

So if you ever wondered why Brad got into this field now, anyways, so we were talking about questions for the injured spouse to ask, and now we've got questions for the involved spouse

Brad:

To ask the spouse who had the affair. These are questions that you need to ask yourself. And when you're deciding if you should stay or go, it's important to understand that you do not want to make a decision because you are comparing an exciting, illicit passionate affair with a stable relationship.

Morgan:

One thing we talk about too is that you can bring that passion and excitement into your marriage. Once it's healed,

Brad:

You can, well, you can create intimacy.

Morgan:

True.

Brad:

It's kind of like comparing, well, do I want, you can't live in Disney World. You just can't. You can go visit it, but you can't live in it. And sometimes that's what people want do is they want to bring Disney World home with them and have their whole world be Disney World. Your whole life be Disney World. And that's what you're doing when you're saying, when you're comparing a normal relationship, your normal marriage, this

Morgan:

To a fantasy

Brad:

To reality to fantasy.

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

You're often fantasy, world fantasy land,

Morgan:

And only 3% of people who do marry their fair partner are able to have a long-term marriage. That's a small percentage.

Brad:

3%. Yeah. It's a very small percentage of people who do marry their affair partner that's able to have a long-term marriage. And the reason for that is, is because they struggle to trust each other. The affair partner won't be able to trust them because you left your

Morgan:

Marriage, you left your marriage. Why not do the, you're

Brad:

Pledging to remain faithful when you showed that person you could not be faithful and you're not going to be able to trust them and you're leaving them because there's these illicit, passionate, romantic feelings that don't last. That's not normal. They

Morgan:

Subside right? In a cornerstone of a relationship, a solid marriage is trust.

Brad:

It's trust. It's dependability. But those feelings are fleeting. They're there to help you attach to a person. They're not there to build a relationship. In fact, most people who do marry never experience that kind of relationship. They experience more of a companionship type relationship. They don't experience this fantasy,

Morgan:

Fairytale, fantasy fairytale type thing. Barbie's dream house.

Brad:

Yeah, they don't experience that.

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

And so basically questions you need to ask if you've had the affair, if you need to stay or go, here's the first question you need to ask. You need to see yourself married or in a long-term relationship with the affair partner, picture yourself, married or in a long-term relationship with this person. And ask yourself, what would the future look like for you as a couple, 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now

Brad:

Without,

Brad:

And you need to look at this Morgan, without the feelings being there, the passionate feelings, they're not going to be there. What other characteristics does this person have? What negative characteristics do they have?

Morgan:

Right? You're going to have bills, you're going to have mortgage, you're going to have children, possibly. You're going to have all of those stressors. What would that be like?

Brad:

Morgan, and I want to emphasize this because typically people do not look at the negative in a person when they're having an exciting, illicit passionate affair.

Brad:

Secret right

Brad:

Affair. When they're obsessed with a person, they're not looking at their negative qualities.

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

They're not even conscious of them.

Morgan:

So the next question would be, does he or she want to have children if he or she already has children, does he or she want to start a new family in the future? Do your life dreams add up? Do they match up what you want? Do they want,

Brad:

Yeah. Do they want children?

Morgan:

That's one.

Brad:

How difficult would it be for you and your fair partner to raise each other's kids together?

Morgan:

Right. Blended families. They have their own challenges. They do. How would your children handle and incorporate into their family the person who broke up their family? That's interesting.

Brad:

Yeah. You need to consider how that's going to impact. So how would your children handle and incorporate?

Morgan:

Could they respect that person, that

Brad:

Person as a stepparent?

Morgan:

Exactly.

Brad:

That's going to be, yeah. And we've known people like that personally outside of counseling who've experienced that. So what were the things that you found attractive about the affair partner? If these traits were to become magnified, would you still find them desirable? For example, if how your fair partner is always social butterfly, imagine what it would be like to be with someone who was always flirting.

Morgan:

Exactly. Exactly. So

Brad:

You need to ask yourself, would these qualities be magnified that you like? And you need to also look at their negative qualities and ask yourself, what if these became magnified?

Morgan:

Right. Considering living with that.

Brad:

Yeah, because it will, like we mentioned earlier, Morgan, like you said earlier, you wear these glasses of romantic love, of obsessive love where you feel addicted to this person, infatuated with this person. You don't see their negative qualities, their average qualities are even heightened, and all you see is this good stuff. So

Morgan:

Right. And the second one that we want to talk about is what will it be like when the fantasy or infatuation of an illicit affair week wears off 10 years from now? What would it be like after that? Like you're saying, magnifying these common traits that you are seeing as positive Now, how could they be switched or flipped?

Brad:

Would you divorce your spouse even if the relationship with the affair partner doesn't work out?

Morgan:

Think about the future 10 to 20 years from now. Where do you want to be living? How do you want to spend your time? What activities give you pleasure? What makes you happy right now in the past? And how would that affect your future?

Brad:

What happens to the dreams of growing old together with your spouse? What did you plan on you two doing during that time?

Morgan:

What

Brad:

Did you plan on this retirement period? What happened to those dreams that you had with your spouse?

Morgan:

If you were to end your marriage for good, describe the disaster scenario that could follow. What would it look like with your kids, with your feelings, with your finances? What would happen? What would it look like?

Brad:

And you also need to give yourself an honest assessment of how the children would suffer from the disillusion of your marriage. And Morgan, I just want to state in my opinion about this, I would never leave my spouse to be with a fair partner.

Morgan:

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Brad:

Well, not just you, but I'm saying for our listeners, knowing what I know, if I were in that situation, I would never leave to go be with that other person because it doesn't work. The people I've worked with who've met because of an affair, they're the hardest couples to work with. They don't trust each other. It's like constant fighting and bickering. It's very difficult. They don't have the fundamental foundation of security and trust that you need to have to make a relationship grow.

Brad:

Exactly.

Brad:

They're lacking it, and they don't last long. They just don't. And they're a pain in the butt to work with.

Morgan:

They built their house on sand.

Brad:

And so what you need to know is, and this is something else people need to realize, Morgan, is that being securely connected with your mate, it's the best protection and form of healing after an affair.

Morgan:

Absolutely. Research shows that,

Brad:

Yeah, that's from research, but so being connected emotionally, it helps you heal from an affair and it can help you being connected and emotionally even during this UNC times of uncertainty can help you heal. And if your spouse is leaning out of the marriage, you may want to listen to what we did on the show that we did on how to manage that time. If your spouse is wanting to leave, things that you need to be aware of and things that you can do to help that help stop

Brad:

Your divorce.

Brad:

Yeah, and let me say this though too. People who get caught up in the liran affair, which we've talked about as well, they can complicate how the betrayer feels about ending the affair. Obviously this can make it a difficult period of uncertainty about the future of the marriage. So go look at our information on RIN and RIN Affairs because that can also affect your ability to recover from an affair

Morgan:

And to look at things objectively,

Brad:

Look at things objectively and know if you want to stay or go. And many times, the betrayer, if they're caught up in Limerence, they're very stuck in determining if they want to stay or go

Morgan:

More so than any other type of affair.

Brad:

Yeah, they're very wishy-washy. I don't know if I want to be here. I don't know if I want to stay or go. Sometimes they'll leave. They'll come back. And so you need to look at our information that we've developed on Lime limerence and Limerent Affairs.

Morgan:

Yep. Absolutely.

Brad:

Thank you for listening to How to Recover from an Affair. I'm Brad Robinson.

Morgan:

And I'm Morgan Robinson. You have a wonderful week.

Brad:

Thank you. Take care. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 13: What Will Make Them Stay, Leave, or Want Me Again? Stuck In Ambiguity, Feeling Confused?

Brad:

I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous and planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert if you're wanting to heal your marriage. This is the podcast for you, and we're on episode number 13, and we're talking about factors that influence ambiguity or ambiguous feelings, and we're going to talk from the perspective or the question of what keeps me feeling so confused. Now, this is an important episode, but I want you to also know that you really need to go and listen to episode 12 that's really talking about should I stay or should I go? So download episode 12, and it's a good idea to listen to episode 12 before you listen to episode 13, which is the one we're about to play.

So do that. Make sure to listen to episode 12 and then come and listen to episode 13. And I want you also to remember that you have free resources waiting for you on the internet at your disposal, at the fingertips, at your fingertips. If you'll just go to healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's Healing broken trust.com/episode 13. That's the number 13. Grab those downloads and you can also on that website, healing Broken trust.com. You can leave us a voicemail as well. Just go on there, leave us a voicemail, let us know if these resources are helping you. Let us know what you think about the podcast. Obviously go to iTunes and leave us a review if you love it and tell your friends about it and leave us a voicemail on our website as well. So don't forget to download your free resources, healing broken trust.com/episode 13. Let's get started.

Brad:

Almost every couple, there's a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? I want to spend a few moments just talking about this, the things that most affect ambiguity, and I would say on this, it's really the factors that influence uncertainty for a spouse to choose to stay in. Factors that affect a spouse who's going to leave. I want to just go over these because they can help save your marriage, help you guys work through this a little bit more on what the spouse who had the affair is thinking and the spouse who was betrayed, what they're considering,

And these are things that I hear by no means is this list exhaustive. I've got 20 different things here. There could easily be 40 things, but I just want to go through this. One of the things that's really important for injured spouses that affects if they want to stay or go is the amount of deception involved by the one who had the affair, the amount of deception that they used to cover their tracks. Were you lying to me face to face? I've kind of felt like something was a little off. Did you lie to your spouse when this was happening? That's going to affect their ability to trust in their ambiguity,

Morgan:

Kind of your blatant lies.

Brad:

Yeah. Do they approach you? I feel like you may be cheating. Is everything okay between

Morgan:

Us? Oh, no. No, not at all.

Brad:

Yeah, not at all. I love you. No, I'm happily married. We're okay. A couple months later, you find out that they have been cheating. That's going to affect your, should we stay or go?

Morgan:

Right? Right. They're going to go back to that moment. Another one would be if it was witnessed by the injured spouse as it actually happened, as it physically happened, if they saw you with them, if they saw it, that could really influence their ambiguous feelings as to whether they should stay or go or if it should even remain intact. So witnessing the event is a big one.

Brad:

And Morgan, that's very important. If you actually physically saw what was happening between the two people, that's going to affect you. And what I'm talking about specifically is sex. If you saw them having sex, that's going to affect, if you want to stay or

Morgan:

Go,

Brad:

How much the injured spouse feels like they're being lied to, how much honesty is they're there. That's really what I'm talking about. Are you being honest with me?

Morgan:

Do I know what honesty looks like on your face?

Brad:

Yeah. How can I read you? How can I trust you? Are you being honest with me right now?

Morgan:

Another one would be what the marriage was like before the affair. Was there a negative cycle that was happening before you even discovered this or before it even led to an affair? Right. Brad? That's a big one. That

Brad:

Is super important. Morgan. Along with that is the uncertainty of the spouse who's been betrayed if it will happen again, or do they know? What kind of reassurance do they have of will it happen again? As long as that is a huge question in their mind, they're going to be uncertain about st staying or going,

Morgan:

Especially if this wasn't the first time they discovered that you had cheated. That's a big deal. The other one, the sincerity, the seventh one, the sincerity and remorse of the involved spouse will determine the level of uncertainty about the future of the injured spouse.

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, that's a very good one. Being sincere. How sincere, how remorseful are they? Do they care about me? And that really goes both ways. Sometimes I've worked with people who had an affair, and I want to really make this really an exclamation point with what I'm trying to say here. I've seen people who've had an affair who were very ambiguous planning on leaving. They were totally burned out, and they were having an affair because they were done with the marriage and pretty much ready to go.

Morgan:

It was kind of an exit.

Brad:

Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really loved them and wanted to make it work. So when the person who had the affair saw the one they betrayed, really care for them after their affair was made known, that is what helped them choose to stay in the marriage,

Morgan:

Kind of re-engage.

Brad:

Yeah, and that has

Morgan:

Happened a lot.

Brad:

Yeah, believe it. That has happened a lot. And so yeah, that sincerity and remorse, just knowing you're cared for, that's really what that is saying. I care about you and you have to show your sincerity and remorse. There's no shortcuts with that. More than another thing is, has the one who's been betrayed, the injured spouse, been betrayed before in a previous relationship

Morgan:

That would really put someone on edge, definitely a human lie detector at that point. It's happened to me before. How can I trust that? It's not going to happen with you. And if you're doing that, if you're betraying me, it's not as much of a surprise. I think the next one, the attitudes of family and friends who know about the affair. What are their attitudes? Are they encouraging you to try to work out your relationship or just encouraging you to leave?

Brad:

Yeah. Are they friendly towards your marriage? That can be a key one. Does the injured spouse have children with the betrayer?

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Affects uncertainty because we're getting low on time. I'm going to sort through some of these religious views about divorce and remarriage. That's important. How much has a negative cycle affected the couple's ability to discuss it, the affair, or even feel close? So there's a negative cycle that happens before the affair, and obviously there's a negative cycle that affects a couple's ability to recover

Morgan:

And to discuss the affair.

Brad:

And if the injured spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out. That's also a factor. Another factor is for the injured spouse, is the betrayer getting help if they're a sex addict or a flander, are they getting help for this? Am I seeing some real changes inside of them? If as long as there's a huge question mark around sex addiction or the morality or the values or the lifestyle of the philander, as long as there's not any progression, there's no help, visible help being made or changes being made, people are going to be a little bit more uncertain about staying after they've been betrayed.

Morgan:

Right, right. That makes sense. What about the involved spouse?

Brad:

Yeah, Morgan, the involved spouse, there's a few things for them as well that affect that level of ambiguity that's in them, that uncertainty about seeing and working it out. Number one, I would say is the quality of the marriage before the affair. That's super important. How do I know that things will be different? And many times they want to leave because they don't know that how deep was their feelings for the affair partner or how deep are they currently for the affair partner?

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

Some people get stuck in that limerence, which we've talked about. How long and how deep was the relationship with the affair partner? How long did this affair go on? How deep did it get? And I would even include with that is how much fighting has gone on since the affair was discovered? That's an important part of choosing to work it out because people can really feel helpless and very

Morgan:

Hopeless, really stuck in that negative cycle too.

Brad:

Other factors that go with this is does the betrayer have kids with their spouse at home? Does the betrayer have their own kids with their spouse who they cheated on?

Brad:

That's

Brad:

Going to make them more likely to want to work it out? Religious views about divorcing remarriage and if the involved spouse feels like they, and here's, and this is also important, Morgan, if the involved spouse feels like they're too old to meet someone new, they'll be more inclined to work things out.

And Morgan, this is so important for both, is both people need to know that they're cared about, that their spouse does love them, that they really are cared about. That's significant towards working this out towards ambiguity. But those are some factors that influence ambiguity. And we've discussed the psychology of the betrayer, the mindset of someone who's having an affair, the thought process where they're at in the marriage, faires do not happen almost in a bubble. Yeah. Well, most of the time in a healthy marriage, in a good marriage, sometimes people mistakenly think they're in a good marriage because there's not any conflict. We have good communication, but they're not really communicating

Morgan:

About wants and needs.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, they're not really emotionally engaged with each other. They're really good roommates maybe, and people want to know that they're desired and wanted and really cared for. And when that's uncertain, that's when affairs happen. When that's uncertain in a person's mind, they're more likely to cheat.

Morgan:

They begin to care less about the marriage.

Brad:

They begin to care less about maintaining that relationship for emotional

Morgan:

Reasons, and that usually happens over time. Wouldn't you agree or could it be?

Brad:

It can. It depends. Okay. But it varies.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Well, thank you. You've been listening to How to Recover From An Affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. Have a great week guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion. It is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 14: Romantic Love After Infidelity: Is It Possible To Have Romance Again? How Should We Handle Romance After They Cheated? Ways To Get The Romance Back.

Brad:

There's literally hundreds of things, thousands of things that you can do. It's just changing up the routine, doing new and different things. Obviously having children, they're great blessing, but don't let children and not having a babysitter keep you from doing new and exciting things and spicing up the romance that you guys have.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to heal your marriage, this podcast is for you, and we're officially on episode number 14 where we're talking about how do we rekindle romantic love after infidelity, and that's a very important question. So before I move on, I want to remind you that you can go to healing broken trust.com/episode 14, that's the number 14, and download your free resources to go along with this episode. It's going to really help you in expediting your change, so go to healing Broken trust.com/episode 14. And now let's go to our radio show recording of how to rekindle romantic love.

Brad:

Morgan, I want to move on to how to rekindle romantic love when it's lost. This is kind of related to a listener question that we had, so that's why I wanted to get into this.

Morgan:

Do you want me to read the question?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

So a person wrote in and they said, I've been listening to you talk about falling out of love. I've been married to my spouse for 20 years. I would like to know how to fall back into love with my spouse.

Brad:

Okay, that's a great question. Part of this listener is really, it's doing these things that we talked about last week on the show on how to fall out of love and thank you for contacting us, but there's also, even if you're married and you're not an affair on how to develop romantic love, well, this comes from Helen Fisher, her book, why We Love came out in 2004, and she's an anthropologist who has studied the brain and she has discovered that, and it's really simple. She has discovered that when we do new, exciting and different activities with our spouse, those exciting experiences enhances feelings of attraction, and so this is very important when we do new, exciting different experiences together. New and different is the key here.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

It enhances feelings of attraction, so when you do something with your spouse, that gives you a feeling of danger, it stimulates adrenaline, as Helen Fisher pointed out, makes us feel closer and more romantic with our spouse. So doing new, exciting and different activities elevates the level of dopamine in the brain. Dopamine is the chemical associated with romantic love, and research has pointed out that couples who do exciting general pumping activities as compared to less stimulating who do more normal activities

Morgan:

Get stuck

Brad:

In ways. Yeah, the routine, so people who do more adrenaline, exciting activities, they have increased feelings and more intense feelings of romantic love than those who just get stuck in their routines

Morgan:

And happiness. General happiness.

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you point that out. They have more just a general happiness, and so this can work even if you're the only one trying to work on the marriage. I had a lady come in occasionally. We see individuals who come in and we're happy with anybody who wants to work on the marriage. She was the only one that was able to, she took her husband to an exciting event and he had an affair and he was ready to leave. This helped them just spark that romantic love again and helped him to make up his mind that he wanted to stay. It doesn't have to be things that are expensive. It could be just trying a different restaurant, different part of town. It doesn't have to be things expensive,

Morgan:

Going to a new duck pond, which is something we like to do.

Brad:

Yeah, we like to go to duck ponds and feed the ducks bread in town. It's just simple. If you go to a gas station and get bread, it's four bucks. You learn that just so you know, just you know, if you go get a grocery store, it's cheaper, but it doesn't have to be expensive. When you're doing these new, exciting, different activities, it elevates the level of dopamine in your brain. Dopamine is the chemical associated with romantic love, and research is pointed out that couples who do that are happier, so this can work if you're the only one trying to work on the relationship, invite your spouse to join you in something risky and exciting. Maybe travel overnight or travel out of the country. Go bungee jumping, river rafting. Even trying a new restaurant doesn't have to be these big crazy things. Doesn't have, it doesn't have to be that at all. It could be just, let's try instead of watching tv, let's get out the board game. Doing something at the last minute, like going to a sports game or going to the movies at the last minute or swimming after the sun goes down.

Morgan:

Oh, that's fun.

Brad:

It's important to understand that anything rousing and unusual has the potential to trigger romantic love. Anything that gives you a feeling of new different that works. Anything that releases adrenaline that's exciting,

Brad:

Maybe

Brad:

A little bit dangerous, that also releases that, and that's also Morgan. Why when people are first in love, when people first meet, there's so much in love because everything's new and different and they go on dates. It's new experiences, new things that are different, and that's why also people usually when they're on vacation, they report that's probably their best times together.

Morgan:

It takes me back to our first date. It really does. Thinking about

Brad:

That,

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

I remember that. It was supposed to last an hour and a half and it lasted 10 hours.

Morgan:

We

Brad:

Had a lot of fun.

Morgan:

We had a lot of random funness, so that was great,

Brad:

And so here's some other ideas. These are just ideas, just a handful. If you see something on the side of the road that's interesting, just pull off and go explore. You don't have anywhere to be, just go look at it. Going to the gun range together. Oh, that's fun. That's different and exciting.

Morgan:

Love to do that.

Brad:

Just dangerous. Swimming in the backyard at night. We talked about that, taking a last minute trip somewhere, and instead of going to a normal movie and a dinner, maybe just watching a movie in the backyard. Create your own little projector. Yeah,

Morgan:

Put a sheet

Brad:

Up. Put a sheet up. Yeah. There's literally hundreds of things, thousands of things that you can do. It's just changing up the routine, doing new and different things. Obviously having children, they're great blessing, but don't let children and not having a babysitter keep you from doing new and exciting things and spicing up the romance that you guys have.

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

Part of this is if your spouse is falling out of love with you, let me say this, you don't necessarily have to intentionally be to fall back in love with you. What I mean is if you want them to fall in love with you, do not try to be overtly romantic.

Don't go have a candlelight dinner to music plane and try to create romance that way. Create romantic feeling, that romantic love feeling by just doing new and exciting things that it's a little bit more, it's not as in your face, it's not as obvious that you're trying to do that, but it's funner as well. So if you try to do something, you have these. It's more, I worked with a couple where the husband had fallen out of love and the wife was trying to recreate romantic love, and what this does is if you focus on, he was no longer in love with her.

Brad:

He

Brad:

Didn't want to be married to her. She was trying to get him to love her back, and so she wanted to take him to romantic dinner, and all that does is if you take somebody to romantic dinner that doesn't love you and that's wanting to leave you and you take 'em to romantic dinner, all they're thinking about is how much they don't love you anymore

Morgan:

During this

Brad:

Romantic. Yeah, it drives 'em nuts because they're thinking, I don't love this person.

Morgan:

Why are we at this romantic

Brad:

Dinner? Why are we here? I don't feel this way, and it actually pushes 'em further away. But if you do something new, different, unusual, it will help them recreate that romantic love, reconnect and reconnect. But if you try to do it more obvious like that, all they're thinking is, I don't feel this way towards you, and it actually pushes 'em further away. You take 'em somewhere that's different, new and exciting. Focus on that. Don't focus on trying to be romantic. If you focus on what's new, exciting and different, you're going to create romantic love as a

Morgan:

Byproduct.

Brad:

As a byproduct, but if you focus on getting romantic love and getting your spouse to love you back only by doing what are conventional romantic things, they're not going to love you back. In fact, and you tell 'em, you love me, do you love me back? You tell 'em things like that, you're just pushing 'em away

Morgan:

And they're going to say no.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

And that's going to work. That's going to feel worse.

Brad:

But what you're doing is you're doing kind of normal activities, normal everyday activities, so to speak, and then they're going to discover that they love you on their own and that's the best way and that's the best way. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 15: Am I crazy? What’s wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? What to do in the first 90 days

Brad:

And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you are wanting to save your relationship after infidelity, this is the podcast for you. And we're officially on podcast number 15 where we're talking about trauma. And specifically with this question of am I experiencing trauma? What does it look like? I'll tell you what, it'll be a really good idea to go back to episode one and revisit the seven stages of a fair recovery process that we talk about in episode one to really prepare you for this episode. But one thing you can do and that I recommend doing is also going to healing broken trust.com/episode 15. That's the number 15 to download your free resources. They're really going to help you through this process, really help you to understand where you are. Are you experiencing trauma? What does it look like? How does it play out in real life and every day situations? And so again, that's healing Broken trust.com/episode 15. Download those resources and let's get started.

And we've been talking about the stages of recovery, so do you want to remind the listeners about the stages of a fair

Brad:

Recovery? Yeah, just a quick recap. The stages of a fair recovery, there's the moment of discovery. In that moment of discovery, there's ambiguity, uncertainty. If we want to continue on, there's trauma. That's what we're going to talk about today, meaning trying to understand why this happened, what's going on, and then ultimately forgiveness. And simultaneously what's going on is there needs to be care, caring behavior, compassion that is expressed between both spouses, the betrayer and the injured spouse.

Morgan:

Yeah, and the whole process, it's not linear, correct?

Brad:

No,

Morgan:

It's kind of circular. Sometimes you'll come in the discovery, you'll start right at the discovery process and you might move through it quicker or move to bounce around to the

Brad:

Different, yeah, you kind of move around. So it's not a linear process, but it is a process that people can work through. And the most important ingredient is really carrying and compassion. It needs to be there for both people to be able to recover from this. We had an email. Do you want to go ahead and jump into that?

Morgan:

Sure. Let's talk about the email. We have a question from a listener, and here it is. I learned about my wife's affair with her coworker two months ago. She has since stopped seeing this person and is trying to help me heal, but I still can't seem to stop thinking about her with him. I feel obsessed with knowing what happened. My wife is becoming tired of answering the same questions over and over, and I feel worried that she will leave me just because my obsession with knowing what's happened. I feel like I'm going crazy. Why do I feel this way?

Brad:

Well, I'm glad that person emailed because that's what we're talking about today, that question. Am I crazy? What's wrong with me? How come I can't get over this? That is a very, very important question. And really what's happening, and this is something that needs to be really understood by everybody listening is a fair recovery is really trauma recovery. And what I mean by trauma recovery is when people experience betrayal, what they are experiencing many times is symptoms of depression, but also symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. And I'm not diagnosing anybody with anything. I'm just saying this is generally what happens. Very large number of people are experiencing obsessive thoughts, rage, nightmares, anxiety, the inability to sleep, all these different things that they're experiencing, and it makes 'em feel nuts. They can't quit thinking about it no matter how hard they try to move on. Can't. Nobody's crazy when they're experiencing these things after a betrayal. Very normal. And both people need to understand this. The betrayer needs to understand this. One of the things that happens in a fair recovery is the spouse who's been betrayed is very obsessed about this, and so they want to talk about it. Talking about it for them helps 'em find relief, helps 'em understand it. It helps them begin to piece the puzzle together and they actually find relief.

And the betrayer feels like, gosh, talking about this is I'm only hurting you more. Why do you want to know about all this, yada, yada, yada? I'm only hurting you. But for the injured spouse, it's actually the only relief they find from it are some of the only relief. One of the things that's real important about this that people need to understand is people who've been betrayed are not crazy. You're not crazy. It's very normal. When I experienced betrayal, I experienced a lot of the same things that we're going to talk about today. In a sense, it's very predictable. Even for a lot of people, an affair is the most devastating experience that they'll have. I had a guy that was in Iraq say he would rather be shot at again in Iraq than to experience his wife cheating on him again. Wow, that's

Morgan:

Strong.

Brad:

But here's the catch with this. And I've had somebody else say, I would rather I've had a woman say that her husband's affair was worse than losing a child. And those are very strong statements that are made and not everybody feels those ways would say the same thing those people said, but this pain ranks up there with the death of a spouse, parent, a child. Some people have even said it's worse. And some of you that are listening to this who've experienced this, know what I'm talking about. The betrayer doesn't understand this. They just want it to be over quickly and it's not over quickly, and there's a lot of work that needs to be done. People can heal from it though I'm not saying you can't, but it just takes time. The first 90 days is the longest period of time, but people can't heal from it.

Morgan:

Yeah, the first 90 days is the most difficult, where the pain is raw and it's just so fresh and so many questions need to be answered. Yeah,

Brad:

It's really the crisis period. And that's usually when the symptoms of PTSD are at their highest.

Morgan:

So we were talking about trauma. How long does it take to recover from trauma?

Brad:

Well, it's dependent upon different factors, but the average couple, if everything goes right, it's about two years. There are some things that hinder people from recovering the way they need. And I just kind of want to go over this real quick.

Morgan:

Let me ask you real quick, by saying two years to recover, do you mean they need to be in counseling for two years or does that mean

Brad:

No, usually to be honest, and this is what couples need to understand is usually couples do really, really well in marriage counseling. It's actually quite rare for couples who come in because of an affair not to do well, usually if they're there, they both want it to work, they want to work through it, they just don't know how. It's extremely confusing. It is a nightmare. It's a rollercoaster. They don't know how they think they're crazy. The person who had the affair, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with me? Why did I do this? So it's kind of a myth that you're doomed. So most people actually do better than other couples that come into marriage counseling, believe it or not. But the trauma aspect of this is what takes a while to heal because it's that fundamental trust, that foundation of the relationship and it's been damaged. And so some of the things that can hinder that make this a longer process, I'll go over this real quick. There are a few primary ideas. The first is they live in a fantasy. They feel the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. The fantasy they had with the affair partner was one that didn't have the baggage of a long-term committed relationship.

Morgan:

That's something you typically term as limerence, correct?

Brad:

Yeah. I'd call that limerence. And limerence is basically a feeling of romantic love. The best way to describe it is you're really addicted to somebody else. You're obsessed with that person. It's really commonly called the first stage of falling in love that people have when they're dating. All you can do is think about them. And so that's when people have an affair. That's sometimes what's happened, and this is where people actually leave their spouse to be with the affair partner. They're experiencing limerence that's really matured and fully grown.

Morgan:

And you typically say that when they leave their spouse for that person, that's when the fantasy kind of bubble is burst

Brad:

Typically? Yeah, yeah. Usually people who leave their spouse to be with that other person, they have the highest divorce rates when they marry their affair partner because the fantasy's over.

So the first thing is the person still feels the fantasy of being in love with the affair partner. They don't have the baggage because it's so new. It's so fresh. They're not experiencing the day-to-day responsibilities or the day-to-day realities of a long-term relationship. There's no baggage. The betrayer is free to focus solely on the relationship with the affair partner. A common example of this, it's not just limited to people like this, but you see this especially with people who have young children, especially dads at home. If you got a dad, the mom is staying at home, taking care of the kids. Dad may feel ignored when he's at home. There's noise, there's crying. It feels like he doesn't have any time to himself, but when he is with his affair partner, he feels like he can be himself and not have any of the responsibilities of raising a family. His affair will be an escape from reality, a fantasy he can be engaged in,

Morgan:

Engaged with that person, or maybe it lacked engagement with their spouse.

Brad:

And so when he's with his wife, there's financial struggles. Maybe he feels left out because children are getting more attention and with his affair partner, he feels like he did when he was a younger man free from the responsibilities of raising a family and basically he's living in a fantasy world. This is totally fantasy.

Morgan:

So we're talking about what hinders the trauma recovery process, and you've talked about limerence. What else

Brad:

Hinders that? One of the things that's important to know with this is something that for most couples, I would say nine out of 10 who are dealing with an affair, maybe eight out of 10. It's a very predictable process. This is what you got to do. I wouldn't say it's necessarily paint by the numbers, but you can really see great success. And so it's really just lack of knowledge. If you don't know what you're doing, if you listen to the girls at the getting your at the salon or the guys at the gym or whoever, it's really going to hurt you bad. Even in really listening to people who, and not even people like that, but just people who don't even know what they're talking about

Morgan:

And aren't pro your relationship.

Brad:

You need people who are your marriage who want you guys to make it, want your relationship to make it. You need that kind of help. But one of the things, and this is so important, I want to really highlight this. The greatest predictor in overcoming trauma is having somebody there for you to help you through it. There's no better person to help you through this than the person who's had the affair. Now, the injured spouse will tell you, yeah, I know that's true, but the betrayer, what you need to know as the betrayer is you are the best person to help your spouse heal your love, your care, your attention, your honesty about what's happened is really what your spouse needs to begin to heal. If they feel like they have that from you, you guys are going to be okay. If your spouse feels like you're not being honest, the odds aren't too good.

So they really need to feel like you're on their side, that you're trying to be there for them. One of the things that keeps people from being the healer and that really keeps people stuck in the trauma is while they were having the affair, the betrayer was living in a fantasy. Like we said earlier, they're living in a fantasy world, but what's happened is they're creating an unfair picture of their spouse. So they're with this affair partner, my God, this is amazing on cloud nine, they're in love, they're happy, they're no responsibilities, no realities in the picture yet. And so they're looking at their spouse and they're comparing their fair partner with their spouse and they're thinking, gosh, look at all these negative qualities that my spouse has all this, all that. It's really an unfair comparison. So in my experience, it does take time for involved spouses to let their feelings about the affair partner fade from their mind. But once they do, the faults of the fair partner usually outweigh the faults of the spouse. The longer a betrayer is ambivalent about being the healer his or her spouse needs, the more the injured spouse's insecurities in craziness will only increase craziness. But if the betrayer meets the betrayed spouse with compassion, it will help him or her to regain their composure back again.

Morgan:

And really that's a lot of patience because they will ask the same questions over and over

Brad:

Ist

Morgan:

That correct?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

Usually until they can really process the answer that you're giving and really process the information for themselves until they can start really fully understanding. Is that

Brad:

Correct? Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. The idea with this is is that our greatest predictor in overcoming any trauma is having somebody there. For us, what's so necessary about affair recovery is we need the person who had the affair to turn around and say, I'm going to be here for you. I'm going to try to do whatever it takes. I'm going to be here. I'm going to have compassion. I'm going to be patient. I'm going to answer these questions. I'm going to be honest. When we have that, we're going to be okay. And we are really not recovering from trauma until we have that

Morgan:

Brad. People, they often feel very hopeless and you're giving them a lot of hope. So we're talking about hope and the recovery process and trauma. Tell us what they need to know about the rest of the recovering from trauma.

Brad:

Now, this is the single most important idea I want our listeners to get today is the greatest predictor of success in overcoming any kind of trauma isn't what the trauma is per se. It's not being shot at in Iraq. It's not going over a roadside bomb. It's not experiencing war, it's not being sexually abused. And PTSD basically means a deep personal wound. So that could be sexual abuse, it could be experiencing a riot

Morgan:

In

Brad:

A third world country. It could be anything that's a deep personal wound. The greatest predictor of this though is having somebody there for us that we can call upon for support. Having somebody that we can turn to and in a fair recovery, having the betrayer be there for you, turning towards you saying, yeah, I'm going to do whatever it takes. That's what helps people heal. So it's not really what came before necessarily. Not every affair is equal. There is a lot of pain. If we have that ingredient, we're going to be okay, and that's really the major thing that we need is betrayer to become

Morgan:

The healer,

Brad:

To become the healer, and we can overcome this trauma. That takes time though, even when they're really there though, I don't want people listening to say, gosh, we'd be so much further along if they only just did this or just did that. You want to be really careful as the injured spouse, not to police the betrayer in the sense of being critical, condemning, nagging, blaming. You want to be very careful not to do any of those things

Morgan:

Because you want to encourage them to be the healer.

Brad:

Yeah, you want 'em to encourage to be the healer because what they're thinking is, gosh, this person's such a drag. They're nagging.

Morgan:

Maybe I'm doing more harm than good by talking about this,

Brad:

And so it's kind of a catch 22, and so you want to be really careful. Let them know you appreciate everything that you're receiving, that you're getting, and you're only going to get more when you do that. So you want to be really careful, but you want to help them be educated on everything,

Morgan:

And that's really hard because in the moment of that pain and everything, it's very easy to say, gosh, they don't deserve any praise because they've been so horrible to me.

Brad:

And that's true. People feel like that and they feel like they usually early on in the process, early on in the process, I don't want to give a definite time, but definitely within the first three months, usually that's when they feel that way. The other thing is this is what can hinder people from being the healer, and I see this a lot. In fact, I see this more than the first two that we talked about. Still being caught up in the fantasy element is really the betrayer feels a lot of shame. They feel really stupid about having an affair and just the fact that they feel stupid or shame or guilty about this and there's a certain level of guilt that's healthy, but when it turns into shame, I'm a bad person, I'm stupid. All this stuff keeps you self-consumed about the affair. It keeps you focused on yourself because you

Morgan:

Feel you have to do something to fix yourself first.

Brad:

Yeah, you think of that, but you also feel so bad that and you see your spouse hurting them and in a sense kind of bleeding to death and you're the one who pulled the trigger. It really keeps you from being there for them the way that you need to be.

Morgan:

And I've heard you talk about it. It's like this guilt, shame, depression cycle where you just go into this deep depression sometimes where like you're saying, very self-consumed and absorbed and thinking, gosh, I did this horrible thing. There's no way out, there's no hope. And you just kind of fall into this depression.

Brad:

You fall into this depression and it really keeps you from being there for your spouse,

Morgan:

The healer that you need to be.

Brad:

And usually when people are like this, they don't like expressing their shame, their guilt, they don't like sharing these things, and you really need to express those things to the spouse that you betrayed. You need to open up emotionally. You need to share things with them. You need to let them know that you're really sorry. In fact, one of the things that can really help you be a healer is just tears, just conviction. I'm really sorry about this. I'm sad about this. And just tears can really letting your spouse know how eaten up by this you really

Morgan:

Are. We're talking about the things that hinder the healing process when it comes to trauma. We have one that betrayed their spouse. What keeps them from becoming the healer, Brad?

Brad:

Well, really lack of knowledge about the process. Sometimes there's still feelings for their affair partner and also their own guilt and shame about what they've committed. They really feel devastated by that. The other thing, we only have a few minutes left, so I want to go over something I mentioned last week. We talked about ambiguity. I want to be clear on this. This is something I wanted to discuss. The period of uncertainty. I really discouraged people from separating when they're trying to work out the marriage, people who separate to try to work on the marriage. There has been some research that's shown that there's only a 13% chance of actually reconciling after people do a trial separation, and that's because they get a newfound sense of independence, family and friends, a knowingly encourage divorce, that kind of thing. They say things, I'll just be happy. Whatever makes you happy. There is a time when separation is a good idea and that's when there's the threat of physical violence. I want that to be clear that I'm not totally against the idea of separation. I am in most cases, but I do make an exception for the threat. A physical violence. If your life is in danger or if you're getting beat up and you're finding that this isn't productive, then it's a good idea to work on this from a distance and separate

Morgan:

And it's never productive to be beat up, that's for sure. No,

Brad:

Not at all.

Morgan:

Let me just ask, how do you recognize the symptoms of trauma?

Brad:

Okay. Some of the common feelings, reactions that people have is there's intrusive memories about the affair. Feeling like their mind can't control the onslaught of questions that they're having about the affair. There's flashbacks or what I mean by that is reliving the discovery of the affair and feeling like they did the first time they heard about the affair. There's nightmares about it, trying to avoid thinking or talking about the affair, feeling emotionally numb, avoiding activities that were once enjoyed, hopelessness about the future, having problems with memory, trouble concentrating, difficulty maintaining close relationships, rage, irritability or anger, overwhelming guilt or shame, self-destructive behavior such as drinking too much, maybe even using drugs, trouble sleeping, being easily startled or frightened, hearing or seeing things that aren't there. Experiencing amnesia, forgetting all of the affair or parts of it, feeling like the affair did not really happen, as if it were a dream or covered by fog, feeling like they're outside observers, like they're watching this happen to someone else.

Morgan:

It's shock

Brad:

And of course an anxiety. So those are the symptoms and really it's a deep personal wound that people experience and the major thing to heal from this is, and we're going to get into this, it's finding meaning and it's really just understanding why this happened. Once you feel like you can understand it, then your mind can rest. You no longer need to wrestle with it and have the obsessiveness. And next time we meet, what we're going to talk about is we're going to get into a little bit more in depth on what happens to our mind, how the mind works and how really when we experience deep personal wounds like this and experience symptoms of PTSD, we will experience what is called almost in a sense disassociation, where a mind and memories kind of just separate or shatter into different pieces, and this is why people will have flashbacks, just reminders that pop out of nowhere. It means there's unresolved business. We have unfinished business that needs to be dealt with so we can heal, and then when we are completely healed from this, we will no longer have some of the disassociated features of this

Morgan:

Or the going back and returning and hashing it over, and you can kind of return to reality again and not be so zombie-like be back to the real world again and able to

Brad:

Relate. We're also talk about how you're recovering from the affair. That's good. We're talking about that too. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.