Ep 16: How to work through anger and talk about the affair without pushing each other away?

Brad:

When I was betrayed, I thought people would tell me I was crazy or nuts and I didn't get the professional help I needed to the way I should have because I was worried about being stigmatized, felt humiliated. I felt different. In some ways, I felt like an outcast. And of course self-confidence took a blow. But injured spouses who've been betrayed know about this pain. They know about some of the symptoms. I'm going to get into that. The betrayer doesn't really understand this. They have tons of guilt. They feel very guilty about what happened. They have a lot of shame about it, and that shame actually can be counterproductive.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. And we're officially on episode number 16. We're talking about what is PTSD, what is this trauma symptom of PTSD or what is PTSD? And if you haven't already, go and download episode 15. Listen to the first part of this trauma series. It's a four part series and we're on the second part. Also, it'll really help to download and listen to episode one where we talk about the seven stages of fair recovery process because that is really going to help you as well. But also before I forget, I want to mention go to healing broken trust.com/episode 16. That is the number 16, and download your free resources. That way you can really have some help through this process and we're super excited to have that there for you. So without further ado, let's play the recording of what is PTSD. Brad, can you explain to us what is PTSD?

Brad:

That's a great question. PTSD is really a deep emotional wound. It's really a trauma. People feel like recovering from an affair is hopeless or that kind of thing, and I'm not diagnosing anybody who's been cheated on with that disorder. People have symptoms of that and to be diagnosed with that, it's definitely not by listening to a radio show. You can self-diagnose, but it's really, you need a professional would have to diagnose you with that. But there's a lot of themes and a fair recovery, and one of those is is the betrayed spouse has symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and people experience that anytime they experience a deep personal wound, that trauma. And that could be when people have been raped, mugged, physically, sexually abused, even when people have been held hostage, hijacked terrorism bombings, seen somebody kill themselves, or seeing somebody die in front of you, torture, sexually assault, surviving a natural disaster.

There's a lot of different things and infidelity isn't in that category of trauma and hurt. And as I mentioned last week, and I want to give you guys hope listening to this, infidelity recovery is not, it's a very simple process, but it doesn't mean it's easy. And what I mean by that is the greatest predictor of overcoming all those different things that I just listed is really having somebody there for you. And part of infidelity recovery is getting the story out, understanding the details of what happened, but also feeling like you guys are both there for each other and that the person who had the affair can be a nurturer and a healer that's going to help you heal. That's basically what PTSD is.

Morgan:

What specifically makes PTSD so hard to recover from? I mean, gosh, muggings and terrorist attacks. I mean that's big. What about a fair recovery and P ts D is so hard to recover,

Brad:

It makes this difficult to recover from?

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Well, anything I guess, and just a short way to say it is intentional human causes. They're the most difficult traumas to recover from, and that's followed by unintentional human traumas. And so recovering from an affair isn't as easy as recovering from being mugged or witnessing a riot or those kinds of things. And the simple reason for that is the injured spouse thought they knew who their spouse was, they thought they knew who the betrayer was, and the betrayer was someone who was once thought of as safe and dependable. And the pain of that affair hurts worse when injured spouses feel that the betrayer was someone who wouldn't hurt them in a million years.

Morgan:

Yeah, with bombings and things that we've experienced even recently, it's kind of like, it feels like a random act of hatred that's kind of towards everyone, not just a person that might've lost their life or lost a limb. It doesn't feel as it was a direct attack on you, specifically your spouse doing that to you, which it feels more like a direct attack on you as a person.

Brad:

And it's much, much more personal. I depended on you and you turned your back on me. I needed you abandoned me, I needed you, and you left me. And so it's much more intentional. It's somebody, it's much more personal,

Morgan:

More targeted towards

Brad:

Obviously then a freak tornado or a hurricane. Obviously those are painful and that's what makes this hard to get over it. But I don't want to sit here and talk like nobody's ever recovered from this or it's impossible. And then the reason I'm really going over this is the injured spouse knows they're an incredible amount of pain, but they feel like they're crazy. They don't understand that this actually has a name. When I was betrayed, I thought people would tell me I was crazy or nuts and I didn't get the professional help I needed to the way I should have because I was worried about being stigmatized, felt humiliated. I felt different in some ways I felt like an outcast. And of course self-confidence took a blow. But injured spouses who've been betrayed know about this pain. They know about some of the symptoms I'm going to get into. The betrayer doesn't really understand this. They have tons of guilt. They feel very guilty about what happened. They have a lot of shame about it. And that shame actually can be counterproductive. You would think the shame would help them be a healer, but it actually causes them to minimize the affair.

And it's something that we're going to get into in the future. But what happens is they don't really understand this. And a lot of people in the mental health community don't understand this. Pastors don't understand this. What will happen is, is you go to people for help. They don't understand that you have symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. As the betrayed partner in this, they're going to tell you things like, well, you got to bury it. You got to let go. You got to forgive. And forgiveness ultimately is something that we want to work towards, but you can't just move past it. I wanted to get past it. If I could have, I would've. And so what I'm trying to say is this kind of pain is something that is, it's intrusive. It's intrusive, it's constant, but it's something that the betrayer needs to understand. There is a path forward, there's a way to deal with this. And telling your spouse things like, you got to get over this. You are crazy, you're nuts. And you're doing that only to minimize your own pain, but it has to be done in an environment of nurturing and healing to work past that and just telling somebody they're nuts and crazy actually causes further pain.

Morgan:

I guess my question is how do we work through our anger and talk about the affair without pushing the betrayer away?

Brad:

That's a good question. That's actually a great question. Part of this is how do you work through the pain of this without demoralizing the betrayer? So they don't think that this is impossible situation. There's a couple different things that can be done. The need to talk about the affair, the need to share details, the need to really, what I would call find meaning. What we really need is for both spouses to understand why this happened and for it to make sense to them. Sometimes the betrayer may know before the injured spouse knows, but how you talk about this in a way where both people feel respected is really to control anger outbursts as the injured spouse and having those symptoms, there's a lot of rage. Sometimes it's not even really anger, it's more rage and it's always kind of below the surface. It's always there. And as the injured spouse, you have to be careful with that because your anger is going to push that person away.

Morgan:

It's kind of counterproductive.

Brad:

Yeah, it's really, it's very counterproductive. And something that we're going to get into later is how there's personality traits of people who are betrayers. They're conflict avoiders for the most part, I would say maybe 19 out of 20 in my practice, they are conflict. They do not discussing things that are emotional nature, expressing their own emotions is difficult. Asking for what they want and need is difficult. And so you are basically with that kind of anger and rage, you are bulldozing over this person and it becomes counterproductive at that point to then try to talk to them about,

Morgan:

And you won't get the answers you really want.

Brad:

No. Yeah, well, it's not going to be productive. And so what you need to do is limit how much you talk about this in the beginning after discovery, you're going to talk about it probably hours on end.

Some couples will, some couples won't talk about it at all. But most couples I find they talk about it extensively. They do go into depth about it. And what you need to do as time goes on is try to limit your talks to this, to 15 to 30 minutes with kind of an idea. I call open limitations. Any question can be asked at any time, but you do want to shy away from sexual details, certain sexual details or just re-traumatizing. And what I mean by that is peeling the scab off and re-put salt on the wound when you do that. And then just love letters or correspondence of that type. You want to stay away from that area, but anything else is free game. The limitations part is just talking about it for 15 to 30 minutes because as people talk about this, you can get heated, you can get upset, and when you're talking about this, you need to really just limit that interaction.

Morgan:

Yeah. Because the more time that you spend talking about it, you start going in a big circle asking the same question over

Brad:

And over, especially if you're not getting any help. And that's where professional help is necessary with somebody who knows how to walk you through this. So when people run into that situation getting their spouse to talk, it's making sure you're not bulldozing over them.

The betrayer is probably somebody who doesn't like conflict. You've got to be able to talk to them in a way that helps them open up and talk about it. They normally don't want to talk about it. They don't feel like they can be forgiven. And so part of this is letting them know that you see what they're giving you, see the effort and letting them know in no uncertain terms that you guys are working towards forgiveness. And right now that may not be possible in your situation, but kind of the end goal is, I want to put this behind us, I want to put this behind me as the injured spouse and forgiveness is something that we're working towards. Forgiveness occurs in stages, we're working towards it. Maybe we haven't reached full forgiveness yet, but I want that and I need you to be here with me, you as a betrayer to help me work through this so we can reach full forgiveness. But many times betrayers will feel, gosh, there's nothing that can be done to fix this. I have done the unforgivable sin. They can't let it go. They're letting me know they can't let it go. And so what I'll encourage people to do as well is as the betrayed, as the injured spouse, really to keep a journal just for yourself to write in and express everything in there and get it all

Brad:

Out.

Brad:

That's when you can say the mean ugly, hateful things you want to say. But if you say those things that you would normally put in a journal and reserve that your spouse is going to lose all motivation, they're going to feel like, I can't really be there. We can't heal from this. And they're going to stop trying. It's really what's happening is learned helplessness. They keep butting their heads against the wall and they feel like this wall will never come down. And so they quit trying. And so as the injured spouse, you need to use the policy of open limitations, keep a journal, but also let your spouse know, I do want to forgive you. I want to work towards this. I am not happy with being this upset and I'm not trying to push you away with my anger.

Morgan:

When you are feeling these feelings that it's a natural process, it's kind of like when you are just so upset and you naturally avoid any kind of painful feelings. And so we don't want to go there so we don't talk about it or we just don't want to talk about it. So we just kind of suppress it and we avoid it and we push it back. But the natural process is to feel this pain and eventually it will subside after getting help, after talking about it, after finding meaning and finding resolve. But talking about in the same vein, learning your spouse or significant other has cheated on you is a life altering event. You talk about the injured spouse, not only feeling numb and avoiding talking about the affair, but also avoiding other situations as well because of this pain. And I mentioned significant other because before I met and married you, my handsome husband, I was cheated on by someone I dated.

I remember walking down the hall and seeing him with her and just feeling devastated. But it's not until now looking back that I realized the way I dealt with it was avoiding activities that I enjoyed and I used to participate in and avoided people, and I just avoided every social activity that I loved and I just became very depressed. And in the book, the principles of a Fair Recovery, which you and I got together and wrote, you talk about restricted range of affect. What is that? And can you kind of elaborate why is it that we avoid these situations and why is it that we just don't feel like talking about it and we kind of suppress these feelings? And how important is it to talk about this?

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good question. Part of this is, lemme back up to kind of answer your question, because the affair is so painful, it makes sense that we would try to logically numb feelings about it. Something I try to do in my office is to help couples understand you cannot numb painful memories without also numbing the good memories as well. And not just good memories from their relationship, but from their life. So the injured spouse, they try to suppress all feelings in order to numb the painful feelings from the affair. As a result, injured spouses often avoid pleasant activities, including those they once enjoyed before the discovery of the affair, maybe even things like traveling, hobbies, relaxation.

Morgan:

So they're rewriting the whole history of the relationship at that point in their mind.

Brad:

Yeah, that's what they're doing. But because they're trying to avoid, because they're in so much pain and torment thinking about the affair and the obsessive thoughts that go with it, they just want to numb out that pain. And so what they do is they numb out those painful emotions, but they numb out the good emotions. And so then they start avoiding pleasant activities they once enjoyed

Morgan:

Because maybe it reminds them of the person that they were together with or I wonder why that is.

Brad:

It could be that, but I mean it's really that simple. It's you're hurting, you go numb and then depression can build and then you slack, motivation,

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Kind of

Morgan:

Thing.

Brad:

So things such as traveling, hobbies, relaxation, finding pleasure in their kids isn't as enjoyable. So after the affair, betrayed spouse will say, I don't know how to have fun or enjoy myself anymore. So betrayed spouses commonly feel detached from other people. After going through an affair, people often assume that they are now different and that no one could possibly relate to their experience. They feel like they can't talk about this, but what happened, what the partners did for fear of judgment, they feel like keeping the secret about the affair leads them to feeling further disconnected from others. They no longer feel comfortable in social situations, and so they avoid gatherings or just don't find any pleasure in them. But the problem is the injured spouse isn't connecting with others because they don't feel like they're able to be emotionally open. And so affair recovery is difficult when the injured spouse is struggling to contain memories of the affair. And part of feeling emotionally numb is having what you just asked me about a minute ago, restricted range of affect. And that basically means the injured spouse could have trouble laughing, crying, or loving, and the injured spouse might assume she has lost the ability to feel compassionate, intimate, tender, or sexual. However, at some point, the healthy expression and experience of grief and pain must occur. So we have to have that.

Morgan:

Oh yeah, you

Brad:

Have to, for her to become

Morgan:

Talk about it,

Brad:

It has to be a healthy expression of grief and pain for them to become healthy and emotional individual once again. And so the injured spouse's recovery is vital for the recovery of the marriage after the affair.

Morgan:

So it's kind of like when you've discovered that your spouse has done this, you've talked about going back and forth, people go back from rage to anger, to sadness, to numbness, to just all these different feelings. So the suppressing of feelings is kind of one of those back and forth. So maybe they feel that one minute and then the next minute they feel rage. Is that kind of accurate? A back and forth

Brad:

Kind of healing comes in waves, meaning in the beginning you're an emotional rollercoaster, healing's up and down. Lemme just close a stop before we into our program. Here's the thing. Not only do injured spouses feel disconnected from other people, but they also feel disconnected from their future. They're unable to imagine or look forward to a normal happy life and relationship because they don't feel like they can have a normal life. Again. Many times they don't make plans about the future. Instead, betrayed husband probably has pessimistic expectations about what the future holds, including the affair happening. Again, this outlook is called the doomsday orientation because no matter how good life seems, the betrayed spouse believes troubles right around the corner. So that's kind of in the future. They're always like, well, this is always going to fail, this is always going to be bad. And they kind of have a pessimistic outlook. But let me say this before we finish. If injured spouses are stuck in the past, revisiting and reliving the affair with the unresolved pain, guilt, anger, grief, or fear, and trying to desperately block those feelings out, they will undoubtedly lack the energy or interest to plan for the future of the relationship. But when they try to block out the past, they block out the future as well.

Morgan:

It's a very thin wall that they put up that blocks those emotions because you talk about normal thoughts and memories, you file them away, you talk about them, you kind of work through them, and then they go into this happy place that's like a Rolodex that's filed away,

But with this emotion, this pain caused by infidelity, it's just right there. You haven't talked about it, you haven't worked through it yet, and it's just right there behind this thin wall that has these cracks in it. Right? And bits and pieces kind of word out, for lack of better words, kind of like a full glass of water where it's at the very, very top, the water's right at the top of the brim. You shake it just a little bit, the table just a little bit, and it overflows with just, and it's kind of like our feelings and our emotions. Would you,

Brad:

Yeah, I would say that's accurate. But here, let me say there's good news here. The first three months after the discovery of the affair is the hardest period. That period is when most symptoms of PTSD are at their worst, and so that's usually the hardest period for the betrayed spouse because the emotional rollercoaster is at its highest. And so for half of individuals, they're able to really see significant improvement after the first three months.

And a lot of that is really dependent upon how well the betrayer, how well they are to be supportive emotionally, be honest, be transparent, and really display the attitude of whatever it takes. That's really the big key we have to have with that. Okay. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 17: Can I forget the affair and put it behind me?, Our past and this present betrayal, How do I handle the intrusive thoughts?

Speaker 1:

You'll see as people go on, and if they don't deal with the betrayal, this anger's there. And this is usually the betrayed person. If it's a woman, and I'm not being sexist, but they become more critical, if it's a guy, they become more critical. And that will be probably what ends up really hurting the marriage after. I mean, obviously the affair did, but they didn't deal with the affair when it happened. And so they may go years and then that person just has a chip on their shoulder. They're very bitter, and that bitterness, that criticalness, that anger, that angry response to things, really kind of causes the rest of the marriage to continue towards Destruction road. Yeah,

Speaker 2:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert if you're wanting to heal your relationship after infidelity. This podcast is for you and we're officially on episode number 17, how to handle the Crazy Emotional Roller Coaster. It's a four-part series on trauma, and if you haven't already, go back to episode 15 and 16. Make sure to download and listen to those. It would also be helpful to listen to episode one where we talk about the seven stages of the affair recovery process so that you can really understand where this section comes in the grand scheme of things. So you can kind of put it into perspective why we're talking about trauma and why it's so important. Alright, so before I forget, let's go to healing broken trust.com/episode 17. Okay. It's important to go and download those free resources that we have for you because they're really going to help you through this process and really help you to make the most out of what you're learning in these podcasts. So go to healing broken trust.com/episode 17. That's the number 17. Download those free resources and let's get started.

We'll start today's show with a listener question. And the question is, I have been struggling with my spouse's affair for a year now. I just can't stop thinking about it and I have nightmares. I still feel like it happened yesterday. How do I know when I need to seek individual counseling?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a great question. How do you know after betrayal when you need individual counseling? I would say if you feel like you did the first month or the first two months, six months out, you need individual help. And what I mean by that is you need to get help individually. What may be happening is you may have unresolved grief or trauma from things in the past. It may be times you felt abandoned by a parent or other betrayals. Different things in the past can really keep us in a holding pattern when dealing with trauma. And it makes it harder because when people experience trauma, what happens is, is it changes how they view themselves. And so if you've experienced trauma in the past with a parent rejecting you or sexual abuse or another deep personal wound, it changes how you view yourself. And then when you have your spouse betray you or a person betray you that you're dating or married to it just reconfirms that I hear so many times from people, I never thought my spouse would cheat on me. My parents rejected me, my family wasn't there for me, but I always thought they would be there for me. And then when that happens, that just reinforces all this negative stuff that that person believes about themselves. And one of the things that limits the trauma recovery aspect of this is when you have had previous wounds and previous hurts that haven't been fully healed yet, and then you're betrayed. It really hinders the affair recovery process for that person individually.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So it sounds like this person, like you're saying, is struggling with symptoms of post-traumatic stress or PTSD. We've explained in the last show what is PTSD, but Brad, will you explain the symptoms of PTSD?

Speaker 1:

Oh, okay. Because that's something we haven't talked about really yet. There's different symptoms, there's intrusive thoughts, there's nightmares, flashbacks, difficulty sleeping, there's rage, anger, irritability, and difficulty concentrating or remembering things. There's hypervigilance, there's an exaggerated startle response, there's avoidance and numbing, and that's about it. Lemme just kind of start with that first one. I said intrusive thoughts. Intrusive thoughts can take the form of many different forms like memories, images, perceptions about other people's behavior, and they're painful and they're so painful enough that betrayed spouses will often feel like they're reliving the discovery of the affair all over again. These intrusive thoughts, incite feelings of fear and vulnerability. They will incite rage, sadness, disgust, and sometimes guilt individuals are the most vulnerable to intrusive thoughts when they're trying to relax and their guards are down. Sometimes a trigger that reminds them of the affair will start the intrusive thoughts.

Speaker 2:

We will talk about triggers here in a little bit.

Speaker 1:

There's also obsessive thoughts and obsessive thoughts are different and in obtrusive thoughts in this way, obsessive thoughts are people trying to figure it out, the story of the affair, what happened? The details in their mind is just racing, trying to put everything together. It's almost like that person's creating a mental scrapbook of the affair.

And you just know the details, you know the timeline, and the more that you can know, the better you can heal and make sense of this. And there's unanswered questions. That's something that we all do when we're betrayed and we think about it. I had obsessive thoughts about when I was betrayed, probably felt like a hundred percent of the time, but it was probably closer to 80 to 90% of the time. And then there's nightmares that's basically experiencing some form of betrayal in the nightmare. Flashbacks are visual. Re-experience can involve sensations, behaviors, emotions. They can last from seconds to hours. Sometimes when people have flashbacks that last for days that can happen. There's usually a little bit more trauma there than just the affair. And here's, this is important for people to know. Flashbacks are commonly triggered by insomnia, fatigue, stress, and drugs. Symptoms of PTSD that we've been talking about. You need to take care of yourself physically. You need to get into physical rest and make sure you're not super stressed out.

Speaker 2:

And Brad, we have a question. How do we overcome intrusive thoughts? How do we overcome that?

Speaker 1:

Well, to be honest with you, the best way that I know how is really deal with the, don't avoid the affair, really deal with it. And that may mean journaling. What I mean by journaling is writing down the story, what feelings, letters that you want to write, but you're not sending this when you journal. You're only journaling for yourself. Then the other thing is doing a technique called thought stopping, which is basically you get these thoughts in your head and you choose to deliberately dwell on something else. There's a psychological principle, we can only think about one thing at a time, and so what we do is I'm not going to, this comes into my mind. I'm going to choose not to think about it right now. I'm going to choose to think about X, Y, and Z and what you may need to do if this is where you're at in the recovery, keep a note card or note cards with predetermined thoughts on it that you want to consciously dwell upon.

It could be poetry, it could be scripture, it could be something in the news, something that keep you distracted from that. And as you go throughout your day, it will become more second nature to reject these thoughts, handle these thoughts as they come up. But you don't, let me caution you though. You don't want to stay in a place where you're constantly not thinking about the affair. There has to be a balance where as time goes on, you can't do this. In the beginning it's, it's almost impossible. There has to be a balance where you, as time goes on, you're able to get some space between you and this, and you're able to control the thoughts at that time. You can kind of think about other things. It doesn't have as much control over you, but you don't want to live in total avoidance of it either. Then it's going to always be there. So you want to get to a place where you can eventually, you're dealing with it, but you have control over when you deal with it, and it's not just completely controlling your day.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I remember just laying in bed and thinking and not being able to turn it off and just when

Speaker 1:

You were betrayed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just laying there and just going over and over and over and over. Just these thoughts and 3:00 AM have to get up. I can't sleep. And you go in the living room and you just write and write. I mean, I come away with 10 pages just writing, and it's sometimes random, but it's intrusive and it's very difficult to stop.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. There are other symptoms of P-T-S-D-I want to get into, and again, I'm not diagnosing anybody who's been betrayed with this, but this is a common theme and common pattern of individuals who have been betrayed. They experience symptoms of PTSD, and that's what we're talking about right now. They have difficulty sleeping. Sometimes sleep is characterized by twitching, moving. Sometimes you just wake up with nightmares. We talked about that. Then there's rage, anger, irritability. This is more evident in the form of smashing things, heated, arguing, extreme behavior, screaming intensely, criticizing others and demonstrating the lack of patience. Having unresolved anger can quickly tire someone out. This anger can be mixed with shame, frustration, betrayal, or other uncomfortable emotions that lead to moodiness and explosions of pent up anger. Speaking of anger, usually this is a very common with people who've been betrayed. It's almost like they have an undercurrent of anger just below the surface and they can kind of just snap at any minute and little things set 'em off and you'll see as people go on, and if they don't deal with the betrayal, this anger is there and this is usually the betrayed person.

If it's a woman, and I'm not being sexist, but they become more critical. If it's a guy, they become more critical and that will be probably what ends up really hurting the marriage after. I mean, obviously the affair did, but they didn't deal with the affair when it happened, and so they may go years and then that person just has a chip on their shoulder. They're very bitter, and that bitterness, that criticalness, that anger, that angry response to things, really kind of causes the rest of the marriage to continue towards

Speaker 3:

Destruction.

Speaker 1:

Then this is important for people who've been betrayed, and this can last for months afterwards, difficulty concentrating or remembering things that occurs when the injured spouse is battling for control over intrusive thoughts about the affair. You spend a lot of time trying to block this out of your mind. Then you later have difficulty remembering or concentrating.

Speaker 2:

It's really interesting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Another common symptom is what I would call hypervigilance. This is where the injured spouse will be on guard against intrusive memories of the affair. Usually many betrayed people or spouses are very cautious to ensure that the affair doesn't happen again. So many spouses after being betrayed are very sensitive

Speaker 2:

To

Speaker 1:

Being lied called human lie detectors. They have a way of knowing if what they're hearing about the affair makes sense to them. So some of the ways that hypervigilance is demonstrated is they feel vulnerable or fearful that the affair will happen again, and they look for ways to ensure it won't happen. They act overprotective or over controlling of the spouse who had the affair, and they really have difficulty feeling calm.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it's just really, I mean, just not being able to calm down. I mean, I can imagine that that would be,

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's very hard. And just a mental picture of somebody who's been betrayed. Think of somebody who's just gotten out of prison or jail. They cannot sit still. They're jumpy. They are

Speaker 2:

Fidgety, maybe

Speaker 1:

Fidgety, always looking over their shoulder,

Speaker 2:

Worried all the

Speaker 1:

Time, worried that somebody's going to come up and maybe stab him in the back or come and attack him or

Speaker 2:

That

Speaker 1:

Kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's really interesting, something that you mentioned in their book. In the book, just a nervous system response. It's almost like it's like, oh a

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they're kind of jumpy, twitchy, and part of that is actually the next symptom. It's exaggerated startle response. That's a fancy way of saying the injured spouse is very easily frightened. They have a sensitive nervous system which will overreact to thoughts about the affair.

Speaker 2:

It's what they call the nervous system override, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. This often manifests itself as jumping flinching or tensing up when someone appears suddenly.

Speaker 2:

I wonder if that's because of just in the discovery phase, it's so shocking. It's like that major shock just freaked you out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, but here's the thing. You are trying to ensure this doesn't happen again, and so you're using all your adrenaline, and that's the other thing with this exaggerated startle response. You have a sensitized nervous system and you have elevated stress hormones in the blood. You have an elevated heart rate even when you're resting, you have hyperventilation, you have tight chest or stomach, you can have lightheadedness, sweating and tingling, cold and sweaty hands, and this is all just having been betrayed. I want to unsure this doesn't happen again, and it's that fear of it happening that sends you into that exaggerated startle response.

Speaker 4:

Wow.

Speaker 1:

And so that's common. Here's the other thing, and this is also really common. There's avoidance and numbing. This is part of symptoms of betrayal because the intrusive fonts and arousal that follow an affair are so unpleasant. The injured spouse will desperately try to avoid all reminders of the affair. Sometimes they refuse to talk about it. This isn't everybody. This is something that really occurs a lot with the betrayer, but sometimes you get spouses like this, they might block out from their mind the thoughts, images or feelings surrounding the affair along with the activities, places, people or personal items that bring up that incite thoughts, that bring up these thoughts about the affair. Some injured spouses become house bound after an affair and attempts to avoid fearful encounters with those who have knowledge of the affair. Sometimes injured spouses turn to drugs or drown themselves in their work to avoid these painful feelings while others simply shut down all feelings to avoid the pain of the affair. And then others will live in a fantasy world trying to go on with their life like nothing bad has happened. If

Speaker 2:

They don't want to talk about it. How do you encourage them to talk about the affair?

Speaker 1:

Well, here's the thing. Part of affair recovery, it's trauma recovery avoidance is usually something that occurs early on during, I would say even during the shock phase. But if people don't want to talk about it, I can't make 'em talk about it. And so it's part of a affair recovery is really helping the injured spouse let go, forgive, rebuilding the marriage and the communication, the breakdown, helping the betrayer become more emotionally expressive and being able to ask for what they want to need. And so if they don't want to, and it's about 7% of the population who's been betrayed when they have been betrayed that doesn't want to talk about it. So this is a small group, but they often feel it. They often at times desire it, but there's a fear there.

Speaker 2:

If they're numbing that pain, if they're avoiding that pain, then they're also having to numb and stop feeling even the good feelings. So all of those things are tied together. But do we want to go ahead and talk about the triggers?

Speaker 1:

Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Well, there are different things that can trigger a trauma response in the portrayed spouse and kind of transport them back to those painful feelings. Will you talk to the listeners about the different triggers and what they are?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just briefly on how the mind works, let me say this. This is why the triggers are so, there's so many of 'em. There's 12 different categories.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that's a lot.

Speaker 1:

And it's because the way the mind works when we go throughout something in our life, my drive to the radio station today, nothing traumatic has happened. I'm going to forget about it. Nothing unusual happened today, but if there was a deadly car wreck or even a fender bender, just that getting my adrenaline pumping, I'm going to remember it more than I would other

Speaker 3:

Events. Interesting.

Speaker 1:

And so what happens is when we experience trauma or deep personal wounds, these life hurts because we do go into avoidance and numbing because it is painful to deal with. What happens is, is our mind will experience disassociation. Let me explain it this way. Normal memories, we're able to just file away logically and just our mind's filing cabinets, but with painful memories, hurtful memories, what we'll do is we tend to avoid it and not deal with it, not really get closure on it, not really heal from it. And so what happens is our mind will remind us that there's unfinished business here. And so that's why we experience flashbacks. That's why we experience all these different things and those symptoms of PTSD that we talked about, and these are triggers that trigger you to thinking about the affair again. And these are things that activate memories of the affair

Speaker 2:

That maybe haven't been dealt with. Is that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Okay. Well, showing you that the affair hasn't been completely dealt with yet. Some of these are things that can cause betrayed spouses that haven't flashback of the affair activate memories of the affair, the first to site, obviously seeing someone who looks like the affair partner will do it, seeing the location where the affair took place, seeing visual reminders of the affair that will do it, and that occasionally I'll get people who will still see or view things that are reminders of the affair. Occasionally, they may still see that person, maybe it's a member of the family or they go to the same church or things like that, and that keeps that person stuck when they're still around that person who was a part of that betrayal and they see the affair partner or just see reminders of the affair. So you really, in my opinion, you need to get rid of that kind of stuff. You need to take some steps to not have that constant reminder because it keeps triggering you to think about the affair. The other thing is sounds, hearing the affair partner's name, hearing other people talk about an affair on TV or in movies or overhearing conversations between coworkers or friends, things like that. Just hearing certain

Speaker 2:

Things. And when you talk about site, getting rid of things that, I mean, obviously you don't want to burn down a building, but if you have a little like a sock or an object that reminds you of that person or whatnot, maybe when it's a good idea to go out in the backyard and have a bonfire or bury it,

Speaker 1:

Just getting ready to send these reminders, reminders so you can go on and sometimes maybe you've done work, but because you have these reminders, it keeps you stuck there.

Speaker 3:

The

Speaker 1:

Third trigger to thinking about affairs is smell. I know this is really interesting because smells can trigger memories. So smelling the perfume or clone of the affair partner smelling maybe even the smell of when you discovered or perfume this person was wearing as they were trying to get themselves more grooming themselves to be more attractive to the affair partner, they no longer wear it or they wear it all the time now.

Speaker 2:

Or you walk through the department store and oh my gosh, you smell it. And

Speaker 1:

It's like, yeah. So I know that's a little different, but I think it's interesting. The other is even taste, I know that's kind of silly, but eating food that was consumed around the time you were betrayed or even food that your spouse had with the affair partner.

So taste can do it. Just these reminders during this time. Body sensations of movement, tension or body positions, let me explain that better. Being sick can cause betrayed spouses to feel a flashback if they were sick when the affair was happening or when they discovered the affair or touched sensations. Being touched in certain ways can trigger intrusive memories. Injured spouses envisioning their spouse touching the affair partner while they're touching you can cause them to feel triggers of the affair. Feeling physical pain can also remind injured spouses of the emotional pain they have been enduring. And so there's other things I could add to this list that I'm going through. As far as examples of each section, significant dates are holidays is number six. The anniversary of the affair is very hard. The day the children left home holidays that are typically family events. Christmas is hard. Valentine's Day is hard. Those events are going to be hard. Anniversaries, holidays are going to be difficult. Family get togethers may be difficult, stressful events. And arousals. Number seven, the symptoms of PTSD and arousal can definitely trigger memories of the affair just being stressed, being tired, fatigued,

Speaker 2:

Definitely take care of yourself like what I

Speaker 1:

Was saying. Yeah, you got to take care of yourself. Eight, feeling strong emotions can trigger you to thinking about the affair. And here's what I mean by that. Heightened emotions can trigger a flashback even when they were caused by completely unrelated factors. Lemme give you an example of this. When you feel strong emotions, some people feel like they can't even be happy because they feel like being happy reminds them of the affair. And what I mean is somebody had a great day at work, they just closed a cell. They did fantastic. Their boss was praising them and they felt really good about themselves. And what could have happened with somebody is they later discover their spouse's affair and they're floating on cloud nine, and then they get this worst news possible. So every time they feel happy, it's just a reminder of that.

And so that can happen. So strong emotions, and that's just one example of how that can happen. The ninth trigger for thoughts about the affair is really just thoughts. Any thought that you have of the affair after discovery can cause you to go into self-preservation mode. You may feel like your normal self and then experience a thought of the affair and become completely withdrawn or irritable. And I'll go through this real quick, we're almost out of time, but behaviors, any behavior that reminds you of the affair can cause a flashback, but behaviors can trigger flashbacks. The things your spouse did while they were involved in the affair, like being preoccupied with their appearance or accepting late night work, phone calls. So certain things that they do can kind of trigger you to think about the affair, staying, staying up late on the computer, late on the computer, text messaging, all these different factors

Speaker 2:

That they were doing while they were,

Speaker 1:

And then 11 would be out of the blue. Flashbacks can occur randomly for no logical reason and in combinations many times triggers contain several memory aspects at once. You can have a visual plus location plus date and season, such as going to the grocery store on our dark night in the winter. All those things can trigger

Speaker 2:

Perfect storm.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. And so let me say this, to wrap up our show, choosing to forget about the affair can be helpful and provide genuine relief, but continually blocking out thoughts about the affair requires enormous amounts of energy and probably leaves you feeling fatigued and irritable. As I mentioned earlier, when you numb out painful memories, you also lose pleasant and good memories as well. I had somebody tell me recently, they were actually the betrayer. They don't feel happy because they try to block out. They feel so much guilt and shame about the affair that they try to block out those negative feelings, and so they end up blocking 'em all out. It's a fact of life that betrayed spouses will have intrusive thoughts about the affair, but choosing to ignore or forget about those thoughts will only delay or prevent the healing you need because it keeps you from dealing with the trauma. Dealing with the affair until it makes sense is key for a fair recovery.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. That's a very good point. So dealing with it until it makes sense is the key to a fair recovery.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 18: Stages of Trauma Recovery - How To Get Through It Once And For All

Brad:

Working through the trauma. To be honest with you, it really depends on how well a person who had the affair is being a healer, if they're going to work, how successfully they work through the trauma, because that person who's been betrayed needs honesty, they need answers, they need closure on this and they want it resolved. But these things that we're talking about with the trauma, it keeps people stuck in a way where you can't think about anything, but that

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert if you're wanting to heal your relationship after infidelity. This is the podcast for you and we're officially on episode number 18 and we're talking about the steps that you can take to recover from trauma. Alright, so we've had this little mini four-part series of trauma. We're at the fourth part, and we're talking about how to recover from this trauma. And if you haven't already, make sure to download episodes 15, 16, and 17, which are the first three parts to this trauma series. And also episode one is really useful as well to kind of understand this in context of the seven stages of the recovery process. So make sure to do that, it'll really help you a lot.

And in addition to that, make sure you go to our website, healing broken trust.com/episode 18. That's the number 18. Download the free resources. They'll really help you to follow along and to really make the most out of this podcast so that you can really, really have the healing you deserve. So that's again, healing Broken trust.com/episode 18. Get those resources, make the most of them. Also, you can leave a message on our website as well. You can actually record an audio message. It can be totally anonymous if you want. And we do have weekly calls that you can join us on when you go and download those free resources. We offer that as an option for you to take advantage of as well. You can ask those questions live, and if you leave a message, we do make sure to answer those questions on our weekly call, and you're welcome to join us. There's a promotion that we're running on there as well that you can take advantage of. I think it's a dollar for the first month. So go to healing broken trust.com/episode 18. And let's get started. We'll start today's show with a listener question.

Okay, this question comes from a gentleman in Broken Arrow and he says, it was really helpful to learn that I'm not crazy, like I truly believed I was since I've been acting so jumpy and suspicious all the time. Instead, learning about the symptoms and triggers in the last show helped me to realize situations that I need to avoid in order to get through this. But I would really like to know how do you know you're recovering and what is the process? We've been talking about the affair recovery process as discovery, ambiguity, trauma meaning forgiveness.

Brad:

We've been talking about those

Morgan:

Stages,

Brad:

Those individual steps, but even with trauma, there's steps within trauma.

And so that's what that person's wanting to know. So let's talk about that. We've talked about trauma in terms of symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. For many people, it's the most difficult thing they've ever experienced feeling like discovering their spouses betrayed. And so dealing with that injured spouse's sense of trauma, it does follow an outline. And part of that, the first part is outcry. In this period of outcry, there are strong bewildering emotions. And the injured spouse, they feel stunned, overwhelmed, and probably have a strong sense of anger that their spouse cheated and the affair partner.

And sometimes that anger is really more rage. And so there's a strong sense of anger and they feel stunned. They're overwhelmed. A lot of bewildering emotions, just people start feeling crazy. And it's just kind of this emotional rollercoaster that starts the next stage after outcry is avoidance and denial. An injured husband probably this guy probably feels numb. He has no desire, so he withdraws some people, avoids other people. During that time, the guy that emailed us, it's not uncommon for him to feel constricted emotionally. And usually you'll see people like this just stare blankly into space. Has anyone in his shoes would he probably, well, he really needs to be getting back to life as usual and engage in things that he did before he found out about the affair, things that were important to him, like work, sports, kids, household responsibilities. But after the affair I've noticed is many people report feeling like the world is gray at this time. Many people feel physically and emotionally numb. They may even find they have no desire to talk about it. There's an outcry, then there's avoidance and denial, and people just want to really avoid it. They want to withdraw and avoid other people. And part of that is because they feel so much shame about it. They feel so humiliated, they feel so really stupid, just they feel like, gosh, I've been betrayed. This has happened to me, and here you are treating me like this.

Morgan:

I'm crazy.

Brad:

Yeah, well, I'm crazy, but just the way trauma works, it's almost like one of those things you don't know until you've lived through it, until you've gone, I mean, you can read about it, you can hear me talk about it. And this is one of the things with betrayers is commonly they haven't been betrayed. And so when they're trying to help their spouse heal and be a healer and nurture or supportive, they really become dismissive. And so they get stuck and they can get stuck in this avoidance and denial stage. And so a lot of people don't want to talk about it. They'll go numb. And when you go numb, you're blacking out even the positive emotions. And we've talked about that before,

Morgan:

And we're talking about trauma recovery, and we had a question about how do you know you're recovering and what is the process?

Brad:

Well, as I was saying, the first part of this is there's an outcry. There's avoidance and denial, and then you have intrusive thoughts. Once the denial wears off, people start who've been betrayed, start experiencing intense emotions and thoughts related to the affair, and they begin to break into your awareness in your mind. Once that avoidance and denial wears off, you start thinking about the affair much, much more become like an obsession at times. And so these thoughts are accompanied by physical arousal, the strong ways of thoughts and emotions. Typically, they can wane for a time giving people a feeling of normalcy. Okay, I'm not thinking about it. I'm not obsessing about it, but I also don't have these thoughts just popping into my head.

Morgan:

Maybe elaborate a little bit on the outcry part. What does that look like? Is it yelling? I mean, you talked about rage, but are they looking for help? Are they looking to their

Brad:

Spouse? What is it? Well, I think in some ways they're stunned, they're shocked, just overwhelmed, oh my gosh, this, what are we going to do? It's almost like finding out somebody you love has cancer.

Morgan:

They're so confused and

Brad:

So yeah, you're just shocked and maybe you're upset and you cry. It's kind of a stunned feeling,

Morgan:

Kind of like the discovery process.

Brad:

But then also people just, sometimes that stun ness wears off too and they just get really angry sometimes when people feel obsessed and have intrusive thoughts, those are two different things. Obsessive is you have a hard time, just stop thinking about it yourself. You can't put it down. And then intrusive thoughts are those times you're not thinking about it. There's all these little reminders and we've talked about that. And so these intrusive thoughts will also make that person physically aroused. So our person that emailed us is probably experiencing some physical arousal in a sense. These strong waves of thoughts and emotions, they can wane for a time, give you a feeling of normalcy, but they do return. And feeling aroused is common during the very early days and weeks of affair recovery, A lot of factors that go into how long it really takes to overcome an affair. But it lingers when betrayed spouses feel uncared for by their partner, by their spouse who had the affair or when they feel like they don't understand what drove their spouse to have the affair. So it's two different things. If you don't feel like you're really cared for,

Then it can wane, or excuse me, it doesn't wane. It will continue. The intensity will continue. The intrusive thoughts will continue. And so if they don't feel cared for, they're going to continue to have intrusive and obsessive thoughts. Or if they feel like, gosh, I don't understand what drove you to have an affair. I don't understand your thought process, I don't understand why, then it's going to continue to wane.

Morgan:

And that goes into the meaning process. We'll talk about.

Brad:

Yeah, and I said to continue to wane. I mean, it'ss not going to wane and it's not going to relax. It's going to continue to stay at that pattern of intensity and obsessiveness, and it's going to make you feel like you're crazy, but you're really not. This is a normal predictable pattern that people experience after an affair, but they do feel crazy. But like I said, you're not crazy if you're experiencing this. And so many betrayed spouses, they'll experience hypervigilance during this time, and that's the feeling that causes them to snoop around and to investigate whether or not what their spouse is saying is true or not.

Morgan:

That's where he's talking about suspicion. He's very suspicious.

Brad:

And so there's outcry, avoidance and denial, intrusive thoughts. And then there is the next part of this working through the trauma. And I would say this is probably the longest period, obviously a lot of people I work with, outcry, very short avoidance and denials, very short, intrusive thoughts can be a very long period for people, especially if they're struggling with understanding why. And if they're struggling with their spouse isn't really being there as a nurturer, as a healer, as being supportive. And if they feel like their spouse is continuing to lie to 'em,

They're going to stay in that place. But working through the trauma, to be honest with you, it really depends on how well a person who had the affair is being a healer, if they're going to work, how successfully they work through the trauma. Because that person who's been betrayed needs honesty, they need answers, they need closure on this and they want it resolved. But these things that we're talking about with the trauma, it keeps people stuck in a way where you can't think about anything but that. So let's talk about working through the trauma. When people start working through the trauma, they start feeling like, okay, the time has come where I need to work on this. And they're ready to face the reality of the affair. They've experienced all these thoughts, all these feelings, they talked it through with their spouse and hopefully properly trained counselor who can help them through infidelity,

Morgan:

Which is very much different than just marriage counseling, standard marriage counseling.

Brad:

Yeah, I would say infidelity. It's absolutely different.

Morgan:

In what ways do you want to talk a little bit about,

Brad:

Yeah, I'll say this. How infidelity recovery or a fair recovery is different than marriage counseling. It falls under the banner of marriage counseling because you go to a marriage counselor for it, but it doesn't fit the mold of, I would say just

Morgan:

Communication.

Brad:

Communication, improving our sex life. And sometimes people will come to marriage counseling, oh, we had an affair, we've got to improve the marriage. And they think that's what they have to do. But really what needs to be done is the injured spouse needs to understand this. The couple needs to understand this. The person who's had the affair needs to work through issues that drove them to this.

Morgan:

But it's really important to know that you still, even with a fair recovery, you don't want to go to individual counseling to work on the marriage.

Brad:

No, that's a bad idea.

Morgan:

Even though you need to work out individual issues, the best way to do that is in marriage counseling. Correct?

Brad:

Yeah. And of course, if you go to somebody individually, they may be somebody that works with a marriage counselor, but sometimes that's a bad idea to go to somebody individually just because a lot of people don't understand infidelity. So basically you're working through the trauma, how you're working through it is you're ready to face it. There's false beliefs about yourself that you're correcting. You've grieved for the loss of the affair, you're starting to feel healthy again. A new commitment is made to the marriage with both spouses pledging to give a hundred percent to the marriage. And you're at a place where you feel like the marriage is stronger than it was before. You feel like you can finally move on. And one of the things I like to emphasize is that if couples get stuck at a stage before it's completed, then these feelings and symptoms of PTSD will continue and you just get stuck and you keep going back. But most couples who outlined what we're talking about, and this is good news, I want to emphasize this. One of the things, if couples follow what we're talking about, they're going to feel like the first three months is going to be the hardest period of time.

But that's only if they're a hundred percent honest. They're disclosing things. They're in regular therapy every week, they're getting the help they need. They're really jumping in, and both of 'em are tackling this and really trying to conquer this after three months. Not that I'm saying you're a hundred percent recovered, but the trauma aspect, you feel like it's significantly diminished. Sometimes people get stuck after a year of time. They still feel like they did when they first discovered or like they did when in the early stages.

Morgan:

And that's because both people are not both feet in being completely out there and honest.

Brad:

And there may be other factors at play, but we'll get to that in a second.

Morgan:

But you're talking about the first three months.

Brad:

So the first three months for a lot of couples is generally the crisis period

Morgan:

Where the shock is the biggest

Brad:

Shock. It's the shock, it's the outcry, it's the intrusive thoughts, and they only get to that place where they feel like not that the affair is behind them, not that it doesn't hurt, all I'm saying is that their first three months is generally the crisis period for a lot of couples. If after about six months you're still feeling how you do after maybe the first month of working on things, there may be more at play. And part of that may be the betrayer is not really being there as a healer, not really being honest, not really being who they need to be, so they're not being honest. So you can't heal. And every time there's a lie or something like that that has to be corrected or you're not being transparent, it's going to really hold back the injured spouse. But this is really important though too. Sometimes with being betrayed, what will happen is we get stuck because this is traumatic. It can activate old wounds as well. And so sometimes people who've been betrayed, you'll only know this if you are about six months in, you're not really getting anywhere and you're still feeling the same way and your spouse is being, there is a healer. They're trying to do everything right at that time. It may be a good idea to look into individual therapy. And there's some really neat breakthroughs that have occurred in helping people overcome trauma. And so do you want to find a good trauma therapist who can help you individually work through this? But I would only do that after trying to work through things as a couple first.

And that would be something that your marriage counselor could give you advice on how to find somebody who to go to. They may be working with somebody that they can refer you to.

Morgan:

What you're saying is that's after six months of both people being completely out there and completely honest and completely

Brad:

Transparent. And I want to say that's a good question because one of the things we get, a lot of times we will get people into our office who have done no work on the affair after a year, maybe two years, sometimes even five years. Then that person feels like, okay, I'm past this trauma aspect. But after having worked on it for six months, you still feel like you do it day one, you don't need to drop marriage counseling, something's probably going on. Your marriage still needs help. But what you need to do is you need to seek individual help as well for trauma. For trauma, for maybe past hurts, past abuse, past deep wounds, past hurts that you experienced from people. You need to get help for that

Morgan:

Completely unrelated even sometimes to what happened with you and your spouse, right?

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

Parents or whatever.

Brad:

And let me say this, I want to get onto how people know they're recovering, and I want to get to that in a second. But so the first three months is really the crisis period. A lot of people feel like the trauma, they're not past it, but they really feel like, okay, I'm a lot better than I was

Morgan:

Progress.

Brad:

I still have some bad days. I still some dark days, but I feel like I'm a lot better. After six months, you feel like you're not getting better. You probably need to see an individual therapist, but do that only after talking with your marriage counselor about that, who's helping you work through infidelity. The first year anniversary, you should be feeling a lot better than you do, but that's going to be a rough time

For people. And also holidays are going to be rough for people. Valentine's Day, Christmas holidays, family get togethers these times that should be really important. Those are going to be rough, and it's going to take about a full two years if everything goes right for you to feel like you're past it. If there's a lot of lying in the beginning and a lot of deception going on, it's going to push you back at least six months in the affair recovery process. And so I want to get into that next question that you had Morgan on how to recover from the

Morgan:

Affair. How do you know that you're recovering? What is that process? Yeah,

Brad:

Okay. Basically how you're recovering from the affair. Number one is you can recall or dismiss the affair at will.

Brad:

And

Brad:

What I mean by that is you're no longer experiencing intrusive memories of the affair. You're no longer experiencing nightmares, flashbacks, or these triggers. So it's something you choose to think about. It's not just this random haphazard flood, flood of thoughts, an onslaught of thoughts. It's something that you choose to pick up and look at in your mind, and it's something that you choose to put down in your mind.

Morgan:

You have

Brad:

Control. You have control over it. The second is you can remember the affair with appropriately intense feelings. What I mean by that is you can look at it without getting really angry, but you can also look at it, and this is what people need to understand. You can also look at it where you're no longer detached or emotionally numb.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And what I mean by that is that's part of that avoidance and denial. And people can live there and feel like, oh, everything's okay, because they're an avoidance in the dial.

Morgan:

They're grinning and bearing it.

Brad:

Yeah. And one of the things that happens with trauma is people feel and they feel like they're watching somebody else's life. And so the third thing that how you're recovering as an individual from the trauma aspect is you can identify feelings about the affair that you are experiencing without becoming overwhelmed. You can identify your feelings about the affair without going numb or disassociating,

Morgan:

Which is something we talked about.

Brad:

And what I mean by disassociating is tuning others out, by immersing yourself in solitary activities instead of withdrawing. So you can identify what you're feeling about the affair without becoming overwhelmed, going numb or just withdrawing

Morgan:

From going into your hide hole and not coming out.

Brad:

Yeah. And then a couple other things. You can predict feelings of depression and anxiety. That's how you know you're recovering. You can start predicting feelings of depression, anxiety coming. They may not be gone completely, but it's at least tolerable. Wow.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

And here's the other thing. You're recovering from an affair as the injured spouse when you can allow yourself to be around other people and have the emotional capacity for empathy.

Morgan:

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Brad:

So that's really important. And you're recovering when you have uncovered the meaning from the affair. And that's what our next show is going to be about. You're no longer obsessed and replay the information you have in your head. You're no longer just obsessed replaying things. It's not like a movie reel going on in your head and you've been able to accept yourself and no longer practice self blame. Many times people when they've been betrayed is they blame themselves for what's happened. And let me say this, it's important to understand that the affair recovery process for the injured spouse is different with every injured spouse. Sometimes there's other factors that go into this that make the trauma recovery portion longer. Past wounds are a factor that goes into this sexual abuse being cheated on before other relationship issues that you've had from within the marriage can make it more difficult. And are they being honest? That's something that you need to know. Are they helping you? And so those are factors that go into it. That's about it.

Morgan:

Well, that's fantastic. So much more self-aware, much more able to connect, and less hurt.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time

Ep 19: Myths That Are Holding You Back, Keeping You Stuck, & Preventing You From Total Happiness

Brad:

So how do we heal from an affair when we have thoughts like this that constantly intrude into our minds, renewing our mind enables us to stop, identify unproductive thoughts and replace them with more functional thoughts.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to heal your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you, and we are officially on episode number 19. We're addressing challenging false beliefs, which this episode specifically is talking about the myths that are holding you back. So definitely, definitely, definitely. Go to our website, healing broken trust.com/episode 19. Download your resources there. They're free to you free resources, so download those. They're really going to help you to follow along with these episodes and make the most of your time and your energy in the healing process. So definitely go to healing broken trust.com/episode 19. That's the number 19. Download those resources. If you have questions, feel free to leave a voicemail on our website. That's really helpful. We do answer those questions, we answer those questions on our weekly call, so definitely sign up for that as well if you would like to ask questions and get more help. Without further ado, let's get started.

Today we're talking about challenging false beliefs surrounding the affair. This is meant for both people in the relationship. However, a lot will be directed toward the betrayed partner. And forgive us, we're overcoming two lovely sinus infections and bronchitis, so we'll try not to cough your ear off. But Brad, do you want to get us started?

Brad:

Yeah, this is Morgan. What we're talking about today is challenging false beliefs surrounding an affair, and this is for both people caught in an affair. This is for the one who's been betrayed by their spouse, and this is also for the one who had the affair, and a lot of the information is directed that we're presenting towards the one who has been betrayed. But this will also be very beneficial for individuals who've had an affair as well, because we're talking about different types of thought distortions, and some of those could be things like personalizing, assuming, catastrophizing, different things like that that we're going to get into. Morgan. Why this is really important is sometimes there's such hurt and trauma for both people who've been affected by the affair. They don't really know how to escape it. They don't realize that maybe some of what they're doing is punishing themselves with their negative thinking or with their false thinking. Recently, I had an individual who had an affair who's been suicidal since then because they haven't known how to deal with their own guilt and shame in a more productive way since they cheated on their spouse. So let me just go ahead and get started with this Morgan.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Being betrayed is very damaging to our self-confidence. Many times we often come to conclusions about ourselves based on misinterpretations and inaccurate information about ourselves that was formed under great duress. When individuals are feeling strong emotions and arousal because of how upsetting an affair is, it interferes with their ability to challenge these thoughts. So part of the healing process is facilitated by restructuring unproductive ideas that maintain emotional arousal and consequently interfere with our ability to process the event. These unproductive ideas can be about a normal assumptions about life, people and ourselves. Then there are thoughts about triggers, symptoms, or everyday stressors. And when injured spouses think about the past, they often have misinterpretations about the traumatic event or misinterpretations about the future. Imagining how bad the future will be, each thought can keep arousal. Dysfunctionally high reworking these ideas is the goal of renewing the mind, which is a very important step in healing from an affair or other trust issues. Psychologists have long believed that thoughts significantly influence individuals reactions to events, and so let me say that again. That's really important.

Morgan:

Yeah, very important.

Brad:

So psychologists have long believed that thoughts significantly influence individual's reactions to events.

Morgan:

So sometimes it's just how we think about it that really makes the difference and how we feel.

Brad:

Exactly, Morgan. Exactly. So let me give an example of how this works. Luke met Anna while in the process of divorcing his wife. They had a whirlwind romance and he was ready to commit. After a few months of dating, Anna had recently gotten out of a bad marriage and was reluctant to commit to someone. So soon Luke introduced her to his family as his woman. She affirmed that indeed she was his woman and she was committed to him. Luke felt safe, confident he was going to marry her, but Anna still had some reservations and wasn't ready to commit so soon, even though she indicated that she was ready. In fact, she had an old friend that she was still seen on the side for sex. This continued a few more times without Luke's knowledge.

Morgan:

Wow, that's tough.

Brad:

It's very tough. When Luke found out after seven years of marriage, it was almost unbearable for him. After some of the rage began to subside, he began to develop negative thoughts about himself. He says he had an audio tap in his mind that kept replaying these words over and over again. You are not lovable. You are not good enough. I knew if you really let someone in close, she wouldn't like what she saw and would reject you.

Morgan:

And so this is what was going on in his mind.

Brad:

Yeah, this is what he was telling himself. You are somehow responsible for this. You can't trust women. Why would anyone want to be with me? Am I really that attractive? How do I measure up to this person? What did she see in him that she didn't see in me? Why do bad things always happen to me? Will I ever start to feel normal again? Am I crazy? Why can't I stop thinking about this? Why won't these thoughts and feelings go away? My life is over. I don't know how to rebound from this. God has left me. I am alone.

Morgan:

Wow. So these are some of those unproductive thoughts.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

Gotcha.

Brad:

That need to be challenged, because when you think that way, you get stuck in feeling horrible. You get stuck in feeling basically like crap, because thoughts determine how we feel.

And so we're going to get into a little bit more of that. So how do we heal from an affair? When we have thoughts like this that constantly intrude into our minds, renewing our mind enables us to stop, identify unproductive thoughts and replace them with more functional thoughts. We stop running from thoughts that cause us to feel aroused even partially confronting them, and we can begin to persistently confront and challenge them and begin to feel better. When we do this, we shift from helpless victim mode into I'm in control mode and where we're gaining mastery over the one thing, we can consistently control our thoughts.

Brad:

This

Brad:

Process usually lessens our arousal should emotional and physical arousal occur. Knowing how to replace unproductive thoughts helps keep it reasonable and allows it to subside more quickly. And so Morgan, this idea is fairly simple. A causes B, and B causes C. And so here's what I mean by that. A stands for the upsetting event.

Morgan:

Fair.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, and our listeners can use this for the affair that they're working through, and they can also use it for other events in life. And that's what I like about what we're talking about. So A stands for the upsetting event, which in this case would be the affair. B is the belief or the automatic uncontrollable thoughts the individual tell themselves about A. So it's that belief or automatic uncontrollable thought that individuals tell themselves about the affair or about that event. And C is the emotional and the physical consequences or arousal. It's how you feel, CS, what you feel. So most people think that the event causes the feeling.

Morgan:

C,

Brad:

C. So most people think that A causes C, the event causes the feelings, but in reality it is B, it's the self-talk that has greater influence. Productive self-talk would likely lead to appropriate emotional upset that allows people to focus and concentrate on functioning and begin to move forward with their life and not get stuck on this. On the other hand, unproductive thoughts lead to emotional disturbance that prevents rational level thinking and functioning.

Morgan:

Okay, so just to recap one more time, A stands for the upsetting event, which in this case is the affair. B is the belief or automatic uncontrollable thoughts that individuals tell themselves about A C is the emotional and physical consequences or the arousal, the upset. Most people think that A causes C, the affair caused the feelings, but in reality, it's the self-talk B that has greater influence on the arousal or the consequences after the event. So productive self-talk would likely lead to appropriate emotional upset that allows people to focus and concentrate on functioning. So on the other hand, unproductive thoughts lead to emotional disturbances that prevents rational level thinking and functioning.

Brad:

Okay. That's exactly right,

Morgan:

Morgan. Okay.

Brad:

That's exactly right. I want to say a little bit about automatic uncontrollable thoughts and distortions because this is really important.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

After discovering a partner's affair, automatic uncontrollable thoughts run through betrayed spouse's minds. These thoughts can keep them enraged for days or longer after learning about the affair. Although they're capable of thinking reasonably about the affair, sometimes they're automatic, uncontrollable thoughts are distorted or just unreasonably negative. They're catastrophic. And let me say this so I can kind of sound a little bit more balanced. Obviously it's going to be negative and probably unreasonably negative after an affair is discovered. But as time goes on and healing takes place, and I'm talking about months into this, you're beginning to not be so negative. You're beginning to get your life back. You're beginning to not be as depressed. And so if you're staying where you're at in month six, where you're at in month one or the first 45 days, there may be some negative thinking, negative automatic thoughts that have some serious distortions there that need to be looked at.

Morgan:

And a lot of those negative distortions are products of the trauma surrounding the affair. Wouldn't you say,

Brad:

Brad? Yeah, I would say that's true. So these distorted automatic thoughts occur so rapidly. They happen so fast, Morgan, that betrayed spouses hardly notice them. They hardly stop to question them. And yet these automatic thoughts profoundly affect their mood, their bodies arousal, and their ability to think clearly. These thought distortions are learned, which is good for us. We can unlearn them.

Morgan:

Great. Yeah.

Brad:

Sometimes people learn these in childhood. Sometimes they were taught by others or from previous traumatic experiences such as being cheated on previously or being abandoned as a child. Thought distortions are not a reflection of intelligence or strength. They're simply learned habits.

Morgan:

Oh, that's important. So it's not a reflection of intelligence or strength, it's just a learned habit that you've maybe picked up over your lifespan,

Brad:

A habit. It's a way you've learned to see the world.

When we submit them to new evidence and logic, we can learn new, more productive thought patterns. And what we're trying to do is help you improve our listeners, improve their ability to catch troublesome distortions, challenge their logic and replace them with thoughts that are less arousing. And this is usually done in the form of rebuttals. And so ask yourself, after you've caught an unhealthy thought, and this is important, Morgan, what's the evidence to say this is correct? Ask yourself this question. After catching a distorted thought, what's another way to look at this situation? And then ask. So what if it happens? What's the worst case scenario?

Brad:

And

Brad:

These are important. So ask yourself, what's the evidence to say this is correct? Where's the evidence to say that my perception is accurate or is actually correct? That's important to challenge our thoughts. And then to ask yourself the question, is there another way to look at the situation? And if this does happen, what's the worst case scenario?

Morgan:

Right? So the goal of renewing your mind is ultimately to rebut and replace distorted thoughts.

Brad:

Yeah. And that'll help you feel better emotionally, can help you better with your confidence, can help you feel like you're moving on.

Morgan:

Yes. Yes. So there are 13 different thought distortions that we'll talk about in this show, and probably in the next show as well. Flawed fixation, dismissing the positive, assuming catastrophizing, all or none, thinking shoulds, musts, oughts, making feelings, facts, overgeneralizing, abusive labeling, personalizing, blaming, unfavorable comparisons and regrets. Right, Brad? Okay. And we're going to go into those in greater detail.

Brad:

Yeah, we're going to get into that. Morgan, do you want to do the first one? The flaw fixation.

Morgan:

With flaw fixation, individuals tend to place their focus on what is wrong or what went wrong. This has also been called fear focus because their mental camera aimed at the fearful. When this happens, people are only seeing one aspect of a picture. The constant focus on what went wrong keeps them from seeing the bigger picture. So it's seeing the forest from the trees. Here's some examples. After being cheated on, Marge can't focus on anything other than the other woman's attractiveness. She can't stop comparing herself to the other woman and feeling like she's coming up short. Marge is forgetting that she still looks great and hasn't realized that most affairs have very little to do with sex, and most of the time start for emotional reasons after his wife's affair. Paul can't stop thinking about how dumb he is for letting this happen. Paul hates feeling so guilty for not giving his wife more time and attention in their marriage. Paul is forgetting that it wasn't just his inattention that led to the affair, but some of his wife's girlfriends didn't challenge her on what she was doing and that it was wrong, even though they knew about it.

Another person, Tiffany, is consumed with protecting herself. So nothing like her husband's affair happens again. So she doesn't want it to happen again. So she's protecting herself. She's consumed with it. She's so consumed with feeling abandoned by the affair that she ignores the fact that he has stayed with her and chosen her over his affair partner. So she doesn't see that he's chosen her. She's so wanting to protect herself. Another person, John, John, feels like he can't go back to his favorite restaurant with his wife because that's the place his wife went to lunch with her affair partner. John is not considering that he and his wife can find a new restaurant they enjoyed just as much as the last one. And then Randy, the last one, finds it impossible to get the image of his wife having sex with another man out of his mind. The movie reel of sexual images keeps him from having a sexual relationship with his wife. Randy could zoom out and see that she's interested in him sexually and wants to have a sexual relationship with him now. But it's very hard because they stick with that flawed fixation, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And Morgan, the problem with this worm's eye view is that it ignores the very aspects that make life satisfying and enjoyable. And through conditioning related negatives, they snowball. So that many places and events now remind betrayed spouses to feel guilt, anger, fear, sadness, or insecurity.

Morgan:

And the antidote is to expand our focus, to use a wider lens, to see the whole picture ask, what else could I notice? What isn't wrong? What's gone well? What is right? What percentage of the time did I perform well, what's here to enjoy? You don't want to ignore the negative aspects, but to see more of the aspects.

Brad:

Morgan, that's very, I think that's a fantastic advice, and that's worth repeating

Brad:

The

Brad:

Antidote with flaw fixation to get out of this fear focus, this worm's eye view is to really ask yourself, what else could I notice? What isn't wrong? What's gone well? What is right? What percentage of the time did I perform well, what's here to enjoy? And you're also right to say you don't want to ignore the negative aspects, but there's more aspects you want to see the other aspects. You want to take everything in the

Morgan:

Good and the bad,

Brad:

The good and the bad. And so I think that's really important.

Morgan:

That goes back to challenging those false

Brad:

Beliefs.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

And many times, and these are, and honestly Morgan, we're talking about thought distortions or negative thinking, things along those lines with an affair. But these are thought distortions that people had before the affair began.

Morgan:

I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable

Brad:

That maybe they had that. But more importantly, these are thought ways of thinking that were distorted before the affair that may it hard to recover now that you've really experienced something very traumatic. And so this is something that can help not just move through the affair, but also just help rebuild your life altogether in other areas as well. Another type of thought distortion is dismissing the positive while flaw, fixation ignores the good, dismissing the positive actually discounts it as if it didn't matter.

Morgan:

The good discounting the good.

Brad:

Yeah. Well,

Morgan:

It doesn't matter.

Brad:

Yeah, it's flaw fixation, ignores the good. It doesn't take into account what was good that happened, but dismissing the positive actually discounts the good

Morgan:

As

Brad:

If it didn't matter. So may be aware of it, but it just says that's not important.

And so for example, Amanda doesn't give herself a break for feeling blue and hurt about her partner's affair. She discounts how strong she has been and how far she has come since she first discovered the affair. When complimented on how far she has come by her therapist, she tells herself, it's not worth talking about. It's not worth thinking about either. I felt like I had no one else to depend on. Instead, she could have thought to herself, I'm glad that I have come this far this quickly. I never dreamed I'd be here by now. And so instead of dismissing that positive, she could actually say, you know what? Yeah, this is good.

Morgan:

Give herself some credit.

Brad:

Yeah, give herself some credit and think about the positive. It's okay to dwell on it. It's okay to realize how far you've come.

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

And so that's one thought distortion. And another one, Morgan is assuming,

Morgan:

And

Brad:

There's three kinds of assumptions that we have, and each kind results in distress when we don't test the evidence. And so here's the first type of assuming it's mind reading. The second is jumping to conclusions. And the third is fortune telling. With mind reading, individuals assume that they know what others are thinking. And here's examples. My family and friends think I'm a wimp for being so stressed about being betrayed. They think I should be over this already. Or maybe the one who cheated on me thinks I should be over it already. They just assume that my husband hates me for not being there for him. That's an assumption. My husband hates me. I cheated on him. You don't know that. Maybe they say it out of anger, but they're with you right now. Do they really hate you? My husband doesn't love me and couldn't possibly let something like this happen, or even God doesn't love me and he couldn't possibly let something like this happen because something bad happened to me, therefore God does not love me. That's a big assumption people are making. And even to say, the affair is my fault, that's an assumption. Or it's even an assumption to say, the affair isn't my fault

Without looking at the marriage. And so these distortions, they can be challenged by asking, what's the evidence? Is there another possibility? Let's not just assume and believe our assumption only, but we need to challenge these assumptions by asking what's the evidence? Is there another possibility? Some people will have empathy and understanding for an injured spouse suffering. Others might be indifferent or curious, but probably not. Mocking. People may or may not be disappointed in how he or she has felt since discovery in the affair. On the other hand, some, most or all of them may find it understandable under the circumstances. So most people are going to be gracious, understanding you've been betrayed. It's going to take a little bit,

Morgan:

And it can be hard to assume the best of people in this certain situation because you've been hurt and you're traumatized. So it makes sense that you would automatically have an assumption that people are bad and hurtful.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. But it's important though to ask Morgan, where's the evidence? Is there another possibility here? And most of the time, people don't question their perception. They don't question their thoughts, and it leads them to great error. It leads 'em down a wrong, wrong road. And it's very helpful to follow our advice and challenge some of these false beliefs. This flaw fixation more than just flaw fixation, but the assumptions and dismissing the positive. It's important to look at those thought distortions and challenge them. And

Morgan:

The second one here is jumping to conclusions. When someone jumps to conclusions, something like this happens. Say your spouse is running late from work and doesn't call but comes home 10 minutes late. You feel like they have forsaken you for the other person. You literally jump at the conclusion, which is called the startled response. This is tested by asking what is the evidence? Is it possible that this is not a repeat of my trauma? Maybe the person,

Brad:

Is it possible that they're not shooting on me? Again, kind of what's the evidence here,

Morgan:

Right

Brad:

There? Another possibility.

Morgan:

Could they really have been stuck in traffic? What is it really?

Brad:

Yeah, you don't want to let your assumptions get the best of you because you're just not as happy when you let your mind run wild.

Brad:

You

Brad:

Need to control your thoughts and control your mind, and you're just not as happy. Morgan, the other type of assuming is fortune telling. When partners have been betrayed by an affair, they pessimistically predict a negative outcome without testing the evidence. Fortune telling often starts with a fear focus, and this is what somebody could say. It might happen after all it's happened before, or it could happen for the first time, and it subtly shifts to it will undoubtedly happen, which arouses the betrayed partner further. So when you start thinking that way, it gets you more aroused, more upset,

Brad:

More upset.

Brad:

To challenge this distortion, we must think somewhat tentatively and openly like a scientist, and this is what you could say. Certainly bad things might happen, but what's the probability or odds of this happening?

Morgan:

So

Brad:

This could happen, but what's the chances of this happening? What's the probability? What's the odds of this happening? Other antidotes include asking, why might this negative not happen? Why might something good happen?

So looking at those assumptions like that, and those are really important, we're going to keep talking about challenging false beliefs. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed, healing broken trust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 20: Your Mind Plays Tricks On You and Replacing Destructive Thoughts

Brad:

You have to really sort this out. It's not fair to say all affairs are this way

Morgan:

And we're not diagnosing anyone as

Brad:

Well. No, we're not. But you need to have a well-rounded picture of this. It's not fair to completely take responsibility for it, the climate of the marriage, and it's not fair to blame somebody else for all that either

Morgan:

For the a hundred percent of it, right?

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you're wanting to heal your relationship, this podcast is for you. We are officially on podcast episode number 20, and we're addressing challenging false beliefs by talking about the myths that are holding you back from recovering from the affair and keeping you from being able to heal and really reach that post-traumatic growth that you really deserve. And if you haven't yet, go to healing broken trust.com/episode 20. That's the number 20, healing broken trust.com/episode 20. Download those free resources that are the supplement to this episode. And let's get started. You are listening to Brad and Morgan Robinson and we're talking about how to recover from an affair. Now, Brad, remind our listeners what we're talking

Brad:

About. We are talking about destructive thought patterns that individuals have after they've been betrayed or after they've had an affair. The reason we're talking about these destructive thought patterns is because it can really hold up an individual or a couple's ability to recover, to heal from an affair. And so what we're doing and what we've done the last few shows is talking about identifying these negative thought patterns and providing replacement alternatives or antidotes to these types of thought patterns.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

That's what we're working on. This next one here is abusive labeling. With abusive labeling. Individuals give themselves a label or name as though a single word could describe a person completely. For example, to say I'm a loser means that I'm always and in every way a loser. Obviously this isn't fair or true. Children often internalized spoken or unspoken messages. For example, a child who is repeatedly molested comes to think of himself just as a sex object, a whore, even in adulthood. So the antidote to thinking about this abusive labeling is to rate behavior, experience but not people. So you want to think that was a really difficult experience for me instead of I'm bad.

Morgan:

And so the antidote is a replacement thought.

Brad:

And oftentimes that's what people do is they've been sexually abused. Sometimes they start to feel like, I'm bad. If people really got to know me, they wouldn't like me. And that's really destructive. And here's another example of thought distortions and rebuttals related to the trauma of infidelity. Notice that labels can be levied at other people as well, which is common in anger reactions to reduce another human being to an always and in every way label is just as inaccurate and unfair as doing it to yourself even if it feels justified. And so sometimes what we do when we've been betrayed is we label the other person as always and in every way a bad person or a cheater, and that's not true. And that can hinder our ability to recover. And so here's some core beliefs that people have when they adopt this abusive labeling mindset. One of these core beliefs is I'm damaged goods, I'm worthless.

Morgan:

And what they want to do is replace that thought with I was cheated on. I am more than this. So it's putting that label onto the event and not the person.

Brad:

Exactly. Another core belief is I'm a workaholic. I know why she cheated on me.

Morgan:

And a replacement thought for that is I was doing the best with what I knew at the time. I made some bad choices.

Brad:

Another core belief is I am bad for cheating on my partner.

Morgan:

And an antidote or a replacement thought would be I reached a low point of depression and didn't have anyone to talk to. So those are basically some replacement thoughts for the core beliefs that are directed towards the individual instead of the situation. And the next one is personalizing. This is seeing oneself as more responsible or involved with a given situation than he or she really is. The antidote to this is to see things accurately. So separate influences from causes, figure out how much responsibility is truly yours and keep what is beyond your control outside of your boundaries.

Brad:

Basically. When people personalize, when they take too much responsibility for a situation, what they oftentimes can believe, especially with an affair, is it's all my fault that I was cheated on. I must have asked for it because of the way I treated my spouse. I deserve this.

Morgan:

And the way to kind of combat that core belief is a replacement thought that goes kind of like this is a faulty way to try to make sense of an affair. No one deserves to be cheated on. Not treating your spouse as well as you should is not the same as asking to be cheated on the cause was the partner, not me. I'm not responsible for the affair, only my recovery. I'm responsible for my actions, which in part created the climate of our marriage, but my partner's responsible for their own actions as I am with mine and I didn't have an affair. So it's a new way to think about that core belief

Brad:

That's a good healthy, I believe, a replacement thought for that core belief. Morgan, another core belief is there must be something about me that invited the cheating or caused my wife to do it.

Morgan:

And the better way to think about the situation is perhaps I could learn to be a better listener and be more affectionate, but a lack of these skills does not justify being cheated on affairs happen for reasons outside of my influence.

Brad:

I think that's a good way of looking at it. Another core belief that people have when personalizing an affair is, why did this happen to me? Why was I singled

Morgan:

Out? And so the world is not for or against us, both bad and good things happen to people

Brad:

And like Jesus said, it rains on the good and the bad. It rains on the just and the unjust. So life kind of happens for everybody. Another core belief is in an argument, a boyfriend tells his girlfriend, you are either for me or against me.

Morgan:

And a replacement thought that combats that is partners will inevitably disagree about issues. That doesn't mean she's against me. Just my idea.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes people have a hard time differentiating that we can disagree with your ideas. That doesn't mean we're disagreeing and we don't love you or you. And that's really important. Another core belief that goes along with personalizing is if I worry enough about the affair, I can keep it from happening again.

Morgan:

And a replacement thought is this is trying to be responsible for too much. I accept that I cannot have total control. All I can have is responsibility for what I can control instead of worrying and staying aroused, I will make a good action plan. I'll do my best and then I'll release the worry.

Brad:

Yeah, that's good.

Morgan:

Let it go.

Brad:

Morgan. Another type of thought process that's very negative and very destructive that keeps couples from healing, whether as an individual or as the couple themselves is really blaming. And blaming is the opposite of personalizing.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And this is really common, and you see this a lot on fair recovery websites where the people who've been betrayed completely don't own up to any sort of responsibility on what the climate of the marriage was like. There's therapists that condone that say, yeah, you had no responsibility for what the marriage was like. And so this person acted on their own and they have no reason to cheat. And if they say they were unhappy in the marriage, they're just saying that because they got caught in the marriage with an affair

Morgan:

And they just want to blame you. And that's not completely accurate at

Brad:

All. And so really it's personalizing it and then blaming, taking no responsibility for where their marriage was at. Sure you didn't put a gun to their head and say, betray me. But at the same time, the marriage may not have been in a good place. And so that's a really tricky area because sometimes the people are really unhappy in the marriage and they're burned out. They may not be looking for a way out, but they're unhappy with it. They're not feeling satisfied, certainly not emotionally close to their spouse. So there's vulnerabilities there that create this kind of opportunity that allow this kind of opportunity to happen.

Morgan:

And we're not saying that you are the reason that they cheated because they still made the decision for themselves, but the climate of the marriage could have been poor. And it opens the door to these.

Brad:

They were beat up by the negative cycle. And the other thing is there's times where people are really, I would say, in what appears to be a great marriage and affairs still happen and that individual may be a sex addict. That individual may be somebody who is a flander who just believes it's morally okay, this is just what guys do. This is just what girls do. Okay. So that's when this kind of stuff can happen. You have to really sort this out. It's not fair to say all affairs are this way

Morgan:

And we're not diagnosing anyone as

Brad:

Well. No, we're not. But you need to have a well-rounded picture of this. It's not fair to completely take responsibility for it, the climate of the marriage. And it's not fair to blame somebody else for all that either

Morgan:

For the a hundred percent of it, right?

Brad:

Yeah. And so I'm going to get back to this. So blaming is another type of thought distortion that people get into that either as the betrayer or as the one who's been betrayed really keeps them from moving forward. And betrayers can get in the blaming. I've seen that happen. And that's not a pretty picture because good luck trying to recover. You got somebody suffering from symptoms similar to post-traumatic stress disorder and major pain, and then you're going to go around and start blaming them for why you had an affair. That's destructive. That's very destructive. And that happens. So blaming, that's the opposite of personalizing. And while personalizing individuals, they will place all the responsibility on themselves for their difficulties. Blaming puts it all on an outside person or factor.

Morgan:

So some examples, he treats me so miserably, he's ruined my life and my self-esteem. Another one, I'm stressed out today because talking to my parents makes me cringe. He doesn't know how much he has hurt me.

Brad:

Yeah. Now Morgan, the problem with blaming like catastrophizing, which we talked about earlier, is that it tends to make people think of themselves as helpless victims who are too feeble to cope. Blaming keeps us stuck in the past and we are powerless because the past is unchangeable,

Morgan:

Right? And the antidote to blaming is to acknowledge outside influences, but to take responsibility for your own welfare. I see how these things have influenced me and challenge me. Now I commit to get back on track and move on for present stressors. We might think nothing makes me do anything. Nothing makes me do anything, right? I choose how I respond.

Brad:

And Morgan, I'm glad you said that. I think that's a really powerful thought replacement or an antidote to the blaming is nothing makes me do anything. I choose my responses. Even when I get really angry when somebody says something hurtful, I still chose that response. And I think that's really important. Even when you stub your toe and curse words come out or if you burn yourself or there's other options that are there, you're choosing that kind of response. And I'm glad you said that. That's really powerful.

Morgan:

Thank you. The next one we were talking about here is unfavorable comparisons. In the case of unfavorable comparisons, a person magnifies another's strengths and their own weaknesses while minimizing the other's faults and their own strengths. So by comparison, he or she feels inadequate or inferior. For example, a betrayed husband may think his wife's affair partner is a talented person. He makes so much money. He was even on the news the other night, me, I'm just a carpenter, I could never make the money he does. Ever since my wife compared sex with me, I can't help but feel like he's a better lover. Sure, I have wonderful friends and I'm active in the homeless shelter. And it's true that her affair partner has a drinking problem, but his kids are really struggling. But I feel like my wife would rather be with him. So minimizing his own strengths and looking at the other guy's strengths.

Brad:

Morgan, that's a really very common one as well. And this is really important. A way to challenge this kind of distortion is to ask this question, why must I compare? Why can't I just appreciate that each person has unique strengths and weaknesses. So ask yourself that. Why must I compare? Why can't I just appreciate that each person has unique strengths and weaknesses. Another person's strengths are not necessarily better or just different. And someone humorously noted that doctors have more status than garbage collectors, but one wonders who does more for public health. So most of the time we function better and with less stress when we focus on doing our personal best and not drawing on comparisons.

Morgan:

And that is very difficult. I could imagine.

Brad:

Yeah, it

Morgan:

Is for a betrayed partner.

Brad:

And Morgan, another type of thought distortion that individuals and couples can have is really regrets. There is obviously going to be a period after an affair where you regret how you were in the marriage that created this climate, whether as the individual who's been betrayed or the betrayer, you're going to have going to regret that. But if you're there a year later,

Brad:

Two

Brad:

Years later, there's some significant issues there. And so with regrets, someone is looking back and they're thinking, if only I hadn't or if I would've tried harder beyond a period of introspection where mistakes are acknowledged and courses are corrected, regrets are unproductive because people can't go back and change the past,

Morgan:

Right? You can't.

Brad:

And let me say this though, I want to be a little balanced here. If you're the betrayer, you need to show you that you're regretful. There is a period of introspection. There is a period where you are owning up to hurtful actions. You're caring for the pain and you're deeply ashamed of this. Your spouse, your partner that you cheated on needs to see that to begin to heal and needs to know that you're really sorry about that. I'm not talking about that kind of regret. I'm talking about the kind of regret that keeps you thinking and feeling like I mentioned a moment ago, a year into this, two years into this, three years into this, five years into this where you're thinking, I am a horrible person.

Morgan:

And that keeps you from moving forward and helping your spouse to move forward and heal.

Brad:

Yeah, I'm talking about the kind of regret that keeps a person very depressed, that I have seen make people become suicidal. That's the kind of regret I'm talking about.

Brad:

That's

Brad:

Very unproductive regret. That is regret to an extreme. That is very unhealthy. Now, there is a type of regret that's very helpful in helping your partner heal, helping your spouse heal. So yeah,

Morgan:

And regrets are another way to reject our imperfections.

Brad:

We

Morgan:

Might beat ourselves up thinking, I deserve to be punished for that. What we actually deserve is the opportunity to try again, improve and learn from the mistakes we can think. I've learned from mistakes in the past, and I can do that again. That was then, and this is now.

Brad:

And that's a good way to look at it is I've learned from mistakes in the past, and I can do so again. I can learn from this. I learn from other things and even tell yourself, that was then. This is now. And that may not be very reassuring. If you've cheated on your spouse and you're telling them that is, look, I've learned from a mistakes that was then this is now. I'm not doing it anymore. Want to, your spouse is going to need, that's minimizing.

Morgan:

You don't want to dismiss their feelings. There needs to be some level of regret shown,

Brad:

But

Morgan:

Not a regret that keeps you introspective and forgets about your spouse.

Brad:

And really, Morgan, I'm trying to share this with individuals because I don't want them getting to that place of deep depression

Brad:

Because

Brad:

That can hinder emotional connection. And obviously I don't want 'em to be suicidal. And now you're going to have regret, and you may have that for a while and some of that can be healthy. But when you get into more of that extreme regret, you're beating yourself up and it's turning into self hatred.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

It's with you not just immediately after the affair is discovered, but it's with you much longer. It's really destructive. It's very unhealthy. And so Morgan, there's different ways of dealing with regret regarding difficult experiences from our past. And one of those is to really tell yourself. And mistake isn't usually a deliberate act. What did I want or intend to happen? What was I wanting or intending to happen here? Was I just wanting someone to talk to and it crossed boundaries? That kind of thing.

Morgan:

Was I just trying to be a friendly, nice person? And they mistook where an affair with a

Brad:

Coworker who misread how I was coming across a mistake isn't usually a deliberate act. What did I intend or want to happen if it was an honest mistake? You need to think to yourself, this could have happened to many people,

Morgan:

To anyone.

Brad:

And you also need to ask yourself, what did I learn that could prevent this from happening again? So you want to focus on remedial action. What did I learn that could prevent this from happening again, focus on being proactive as a way to repair. And another follow up thought is, how much was I actually responsible for that were factors beyond my control

Morgan:

Or were there, yeah,

Brad:

Yeah, were there factors beyond my control? And so that's important. What good things are result of this outcome? What is the possible silver lining here? And most marriages do rebuild after an affair. They do get stronger. And what's the possible silver lining here? So that's important to ask yourself that. And you also want to ask yourself, will there be more chances to learn better approaches, new skills, ways to grow?

Brad:

And

Brad:

That's something you need to ask yourself, Morgan, those thoughts, those comments they came from, they were developed by the founders of the International Critical Incident Stress Foundation. Those are some questions that they use to help people deal with this regret that they have after stressful situations. Honestly, it's really important to turn questions into statements when analyzing self-talk. So for example, asking, why can't I get over this that keeps injured spouses aroused and provides no resolution when change to the statement, I can't get over this. The fortune telling error becomes obvious. We can then change this to, I'll probably learn how to come to terms with this. And so if you just take it from a question to a statement, it's easier to challenge that sometimes when we just keep these questions in our mind and they're not really challenged, we keep carrying it around and it becomes very destructive. And Morgan, this next part I want to go over, we've covered several different types of thought distortions that individuals have. Now, these are common beliefs, core beliefs that individuals have after an affair. And I want to go over these and give our listeners thought replacements that they can take if they've been betrayed or if they've betrayed their spouse. And so the core belief that people have after an affair sometimes is, I am weak.

Morgan:

So they want to consider a replacement thought to that thought of I'm weak. Instead say I'm a combination of weaknesses and strengths. I'm strengthening the weaker areas. I'm doing my best.

Brad:

I like that. I like that because it's positive. It's focused on what you have control over. It's focused on remedial actions. It's proactive. I'm strengthening the weaker areas. Another core belief that people have that keeps 'em stuck in healing is my weaknesses and flaws will be exposed. How horrible is this?

Morgan:

Right? And a way to think about that differently. Everyone is fallible. Each person has flaws. To have them exposed makes me human. That's not awful. It's just life. Actually, some flaws are endearing.

Brad:

And another core belief that people can have that's very destructive is my worth equals my behavior during the time I found out and dealt with the affair. And what I mean by that is sometimes people equate to how stressful this time was in the affair, whether they're being dishonest about it or if they overreacted and got angry and felt humiliated. If they went over, they crossed some lines there. They begin to think, I really lost my cool. They begin to question their ability and their self-worth.

Morgan:

I must be angry all the time.

Brad:

Well, they begin to think I must be crazy.

Morgan:

Oh, yes,

Brad:

Yes. That kind of thing.

Morgan:

So a replacement thought to that, my worth as a unique individual is far too complex to reduce to isolated times in my life. Mistakes reflect our development at that time. A mistake does not totally in irrevocably define me as a person.

Brad:

That's true. Another thought distortion that people have that holds 'em up is, I am no good since the

Morgan:

Affair and a replacement, my life does not equal how someone treats me. Let that marinate with you for a little bit.

Brad:

Another core belief that people can have that's very destructive is if I am not respected by others and others do not respect me, I have no value. I cease to exist.

Morgan:

Oh, wow, that's strong. So you want to replace that with nobody's opinion determines my worth. Nobody's opinion determines my worth.

Brad:

Another core belief that people can have is to lose control is awful. After I find out about this affair and I get upset and I get angry and I'm emotional wreck and I'm crying all the time and I can't control my sadness and I can't sleep to lose control is awful, is what people think.

Morgan:

But loss of control is inevitable. Many things in life are beyond my control Sometimes all I can control is the way I look at the loss of control. Paradoxically, to accept loss of control helps me control my stress. I can endure loss of control. I can endure this. And to have emotion to feel, to cry, that's not a bad thing. That shows that you're human, right.

Brad:

Morgan, another core belief that people have that's really a distortion is I shouldn't need to work at recovery. I shouldn't need help. I should be able to cope like normal people. And that's what I believed after I got betrayed was I can handle this on my own. I should be strong enough to handle this on my own. I don't need to go talk to somebody about this. And it was very damaging.

Morgan:

Yeah, it is

Brad:

Put on a lot of weight after that.

Morgan:

Right? And the way to think about that that's more healthy is I really should be just as I am. No one is entirely okay to seek skilled help. It's okay to be human. It's okay to cry. It's okay to worry. It's very human and very normal, and we all do it. And if anybody says they don't, they're not telling you the truth.

Brad:

And Morgan, another core belief that people can have after they've been betrayed is if I don't worry, it will more than likely happen. So I got to be on guard and I have to keep us

Morgan:

At a distance.

Brad:

Yeah, I got to be vigilant about this and I got to keep us because the person who cheated on me sure isn't thinking about my feelings and my thoughts. So I got to be vigilant,

Morgan:

Vigilant,

Brad:

Vigilant, thank you. Because the person who cheated on me isn't thinking about me. And so if I'm not worrying about us, it's more likely going to happen again.

Morgan:

Right? Definitely being vigilant definitely keeps your spouse at arm's length, but you want to think, since most bad things don't happen, I'm just reinforcing this belief instead of worrying, I'll make a good plan, take responsible precautions like investing in myself and our relationship and remain cautious, but relaxed, and we're almost to the end of time.

Brad:

Yeah. Another core belief is if I obtain perfection, nothing fearful will happen. If I'm perfect, nothing bad will happen,

Morgan:

Right? And perfection is not possible. So replace that thought with perfection is not possible. Trying to attain it will just keep me frustrated and aroused. I can commit to doing a very good, steady job, but I'm not perfect. And that's okay.

Brad:

Another core belief that people have is bad things won't happen if I'm good enough and careful enough.

Morgan:

Aha. And the way to think of that is rainfalls, the good, the bad, and the InBetween. Some things happen randomly and are not indicative of God's disfavor. The best we can do is to be prepared.

Brad:

And then another core belief distortion is I must always prepare for the worst.

Morgan:

Certain precautionary measures might lessen the likelihood of some negative outcomes. Constant worry doesn't help. I'd rather take responsible or reasonable, intelligent, thorough precautions and then release the worries. We can only do what we can do. It's the best that we can do, and that's all we can really ask for.

Brad:

Exactly. Morgan, you're listening to Brad and Morgan Robinson and we're talking about how to recover from an affair. Thank you for listening. Have a great week. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 21: 10 Types of Affairs

Morgan:

If the person that you're striking up a friendship with knows more about your relationship and what's going on than your spouse does, then you're heading down that path.

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you want to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. Welcome to episode 21 where we're talking about the 10 different types of affairs. We're asking the question, are all affairs created equal? This is a really important question because not every situation is going to look exactly the same. It will help you to know and recognize the different types of affairs that are out there so you can know how to handle your unique situation better. And if you haven't already done so, go to healing broken trust.com/episode 21. That's the number 21, and download the resources that go along with this episode. Also, if you haven't yet seen the information on our one-on-one retreats and you'd like more personalized help, check out the retreatsPage@healingbrokentrust.com slash retreat today. And let's get started. You don't see specialty group private practices where the entire practice is devoted to working with couples or just one area of specialization,

And that's what we do. We specialize in relationship therapy. The average therapist out there might see three or four couples a week, but we see 50 couples every week coming through our office. On average, every therapist who works with us is committed to researching the best methods for working with couples. And research has shown that the more common method for working with couples was only about 35% successful, and only 17% of the couples actually maintained their improvement after two years.

Brad:

That's

Morgan:

Research,

Brad:

And that's a huge relapse, really,

Morgan:

Definitely one of the methods that we use emotionally focused couples therapy has also been researched, and it was discovered that 86% of couples make significant improvement in counseling. And that's the couple saying that they've made significant improvement.

Brad:

Right? Yeah. Not the therapist saying, Hey, they got better. It's the couples saying they made significant improvement, not just improvement.

Morgan:

Exactly. And then they followed those couples and they found three years after counseling, 90% of those couples actually kept their progress, which is a big deal. I mean, people usually want to know, is this going to help us? Are we going to get back to where we were again? And so that's a big difference.

Brad:

Yeah, is it's

Morgan:

Huge. It's

Brad:

A huge difference.

Morgan:

We help relationships related at any place, whether you're wanting to stop your divorce, wanting to remarry after divorce, or maybe you're just wanting to prepare for marriage or you're just having trouble connecting with each other. So we really help relationships really to any place. Today we're talking about the different types of affairs, and there are 10 different types of affairs that we've identified, right, Brad?

Brad:

Yeah. There's at least 10 different types. And these are just categories just to understand if you've gone through an affair, if you're in one of these categories, your affair is in one of these. It may not be a complete description of it, so it may be like we're going to talk about there being a one night stand, and then we're going to talk about somebody who's a burned out spouse. Maybe there's a combination of these different categories at times. So not every affair nicely fits into these categories, but we've put 'em into categories to help us understand them,

Morgan:

And that's really important.

Brad:

So there's 10 different types. I'll just briefly list off the names of these 10 different types. So there is the one night stand, there is the liran affair, there's the sex addicts affair. There is the shared interest affair, the emotional affair. There's the idealized love affair, and there's the philanders affair, the sexual abuse affair. And I'll explain that. Lemme just because that's going to throw people off. That's basically when someone's abused, taken advantage of and their spouse thinks that they were having an affair, but they were actually raped or they were sexually abused. Oh gosh. And that obviously is very complicated because the one who was abused is their spouse thinks they cheated on 'em and they were actually taken advantage of. And then there's the revenge affair, and that's when someone's been betrayed. They want to get even with their spouse and they get 'em back.

And then the exit affair, there's the one night stand and the one night stand, this very well may be a one time betrayal. It can be more than one time, and it can happen more than one time without that person being a sex addict. And so there's a fine line between a few one night stands and being a sex addict to really be diagnosed as a sex addict. You don't want to meet with a therapist that specializes in that, which is something that we can do at marriage solutions. You don't want to self-diagnose yourself with something like that. You can have more than one night stands, but commonly one night stands occur when a spouse is away from home, usually on business or a pleasure trip, something like that. And they happen in the heat of the moment. They give into temptation, and that usually happens when there's drinking and they can be anonymous.

So they're traveling business pleasure by themselves. There's drinking. They give into temptation boundaries, poor boundaries, things like that. Now, when this kind of affair happens, it's not necessarily an indication of problems in the marriage or that the betrayer is dissatisfied with her spouse. In fact, one of the distinguishing points in this type of affair is the betrayer wants to stay in their marriage. So sometimes we get people who have an affair, and one of the common elements is they're burned out. The marriage really has issues, but they really want to be a part of the marriage. This is someone who can be happily married and still does this because alcohol is involved. They're away from home, but maybe they're curious, some temptation involved.

Morgan:

You want to talk about the characteristics.

Brad:

The core of this material is really bad choices, bad boundaries, the lack of integrity mixed with the opportunity to act. Typically there's no emotional involvement. And it happens typically with a perfect stranger who's befriended in this situation. And we've worked with plenty of people with this, and this can be very hard to understand and make sense of why did this happen? As we talked about before, getting to why and understanding why it makes it more bearable, not knowing why just makes us much harder.

Morgan:

We've been able to help people recover their relationship even after this.

Brad:

Oh yeah, definitely. So this type of affair, the one night stand may be motivated out of loneliness or curiosity just generally result to poor boundaries and misguided thinking that this could never happen to me. I'm going to get close to the edge of the line, but I'm not going to cross it. Normally, individuals who have had one night stands tell themselves that they will go to the grave with this secret. I'm not telling anybody this is not an indication that they want out of the marriage. In fact, they fear that if they tell this secret, they're going to lose the marriage. And that's really the wrong approach with that. And

Morgan:

That's something that we've talked about in the past, being completely open and forthright and honest, because that really is what begins the healing process for the

Brad:

Relationship.

Morgan:

This hiding doesn't help

Brad:

But the one night stand basically. Obviously they don't want to disclose it, then the whole marriage is going to be shattered. So characteristics of this type of affair, it's really an affair of convenience or opportunity. It's not something that's really sought out, but rather it occurs as the opportunity is presented. The berio does not want to leave the marriage. That's another characteristic. And then it's not really an ongoing relationship. It happened a couple times. A relationship can develop from this. And one of the ironic things with this is when people are betrayed, especially when it's a one night stand, they say, gosh, this would be so much easier if you had a relationship with this person. I can understand it better. And then when people have been betrayed by their spouse having a long-term relationship, they're like, gosh, you just had a one night stand.

Morgan:

And everybody thinks the grass is greener on the either side.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. They think the grass is greener. And here's the important thing, if you're listening to this and you've been the one who had the affair, it's just as hard. Even if it was a one time mistake or year long mistake, it's still just as hard. There's different elements that maybe make it harder as far as pain goes. Either one's about a 10,

Morgan:

About painful.

Brad:

Yeah. And then

Morgan:

Are these typically sexual relationships? We've talked about emotional affairs we talked about.

Brad:

Yeah, they're typically sexual. Yeah. Okay. It's pretty, alcohol is involved. Yeah, it's typically just pure sex and that kind of thing. Let's go on to the liran affair.

Morgan:

So the liran affair, this type of affair is really characterized by two different or two individuals who believe they are in love and with this type betrayers believe that they have fallen in love. It's the love addiction affair that we've talked about, and they feel powerless over powerful emotions. It's not uncommon for them to feel guilty about what they're doing, but at the same time, they feel like they are no longer in love with their spouse, and they know that they will never be happy unless they're with their lovers. So it's this guilt complex we talked about where they want to go home to their spouse and they want to be there with their spouse because they feel guilty. But the whole time they're really thinking about this love object that we've described it as in the

Brad:

Past, Morgan, you hit the nail on the head. They feel guilty about having the affair, but also they're miserable at home. And so they go home to their spouse because they feel bad about having the affair. But then when they're home, they crave being with the affair partner because of that limerence catch. And we talked about limerence before, but they crave that limerence. And so then they'll go back to the fair partner. And so they bounce back and forth and it can really stretch out over a period of time.

Morgan:

Yeah. And usually it develops from an existing friendship that begins really where the boundaries have been breached. And so basically those boundaries, they weaken and then they finally give in. And I think it's really interesting, something we've talked about in the past that sometimes people in a limb and affair, they really, really try to quit it. They really try to go back to their spouse and then they go back to work or where that person may be, and all of a sudden they see them in the hallway and it's like a light switch switches, and they're like, oh my gosh. And they fall into this lime affair again. They fall

Brad:

Back to it again.

Morgan:

And it's like an addiction. I love addiction.

Brad:

Yeah. Morgan, what you were saying is important. Usually this kind of affair starts as a friendship first. It begins as the boundaries between the two individuals weaken. This type of affair is not like the one nine stand. It's not based on sex necessarily

Morgan:

The ideal of that person.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, it's the feeling of being in love.

Morgan:

Oh, yes.

Brad:

In fact, the power driving the relationship, it's really the strong emotions generated by the growing romance

Brad:

And

Brad:

It's thence. We've talked about this before. I'll just remind our audience. Rin is a fancy term to describe a few basic feelings of love, love, sickness, infatuation, obsessive love, love addiction. It's this romantic love. And so when people are having a liran affair, they're feeling this romantic love feeling, and it really starts a growing romance. And that's why they want to leave their spouse and be with this person.

Morgan:

The betrayer believes he or she wants out of the marriage. So they think they want out of the marriage. The betrayer believes he or she is in love with the affair partner and is willing to sacrifice life with their spouse for the opportunity to be with the affair partner. And typically, this type of affair is a long-term relationship versus the one I stand where it's very temporary and very one night standish.

Brad:

Yeah, it's a long-term relationship that develops into romance develop.

Morgan:

And then frequently there's a pattern of betrayer swinging back and forth between their marriage and their affair partner. And when they are at home, like we talked about trying to do what's right, they're miserable and they feel like they'll never be happy. And when they're with their affair partner, they have this euphoria, this ecstatic euphoria, but they may be feeling so guilty that they can't stand it. So they move back home only to feel miserable and to realize once again that they can never be happy unless they go back to the affair partner. So it's this back and forth, back and forth dance. And then this dance of insanity can continue for years. So this back and forth can happen for a very long time. Versus the one night stand, maybe short betrayers often seem incapable of making a decision about what they're going to do, and they don't want to be in the marriage. Other factors may keep them from choosing to divorce, for example, feelings of guilt or failure may cause them to stay. There may also be strong feelings regarding what's best for the kids. So they may decide to stay for the children, but a lack of commitment to the marriage is a real problem. So

Brad:

Choosing to leave isn't the solution. But this kind of affair too, Morgan, I want to include this and this type of affair with limine affairs. The betrayers have most likely already made the decision to leave their marriage when people are experiencing kind of made up the mind, I think I'm done. I don't think I want to be here anymore. And so we'll see them come to counseling usually out of respect or something like that.

Morgan:

But at that point, most of the time they've decided that they're done. They already decided care for their spouse.

Brad:

They just want to end on good terms. And so that's usually why they come to

Morgan:

Counseling. But we've been able to help people break out of the li and affair and actually rekindle their relationship with their

Brad:

Spouse. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so they want to leave. They've already made the decision to leave. They believe they can't be happy unless they get to be with the one they love.

Unlike the one night stand, this kind of affair indicates a deeper problem in the marriage. The marital problem is not the cause of the fair necessarily, but there are defects in every marriage. And sometimes those defects definitely play a role in an affair. And so at the very least, they can serve as inhibitors to the betrayer wanting to work on the marriage. Well, you've got these flaws, you've got these things. Why do I want to stay with you? And part of that is limerence at play. And part of that's just the reality of that's what marriage is like. Everybody has issues.

Morgan:

And we talk about you put two flawed human beings who're not perfect, and you put 'em together and you think, oh, it's a perfect union, but there's no such thing. You've got two flawed human beings. You're going to have a relationship with flaws.

Brad:

So

Morgan:

It's

Brad:

Natural. Well, and let me say this, Morgan, because one of the things, I know people listening to us talking about this, if they're in this, they may think, well, holy crap, this is hopeless. They want to leave. They're in love. They no longer love me. They feel like our marriage has issues. They went out of their marriage. They've been bouncing back and forth for a long time. It's not hopeless. One of the key things of overcoming a lime Orrin affair is really the person experiencing limerence, knowing that it's RINs, just them knowing, okay, I'm experiencing, and here's the characteristics. These are the factors that go into that. And we've got a show on that that we've already done. But just knowing that many times, that causes people just to put on the brakes

Morgan:

And to understand what's going on with

Brad:

Them because they think they're in love. They think they found their soulmate, and many times they're grateful to know that, Hey, this is what they're experiencing. And so that's one of the key things. And the other key thing is when you do this, and we haven't discussed this yet, but you have to start doing last resort techniques. You have to start doing things as a spouse when they've decided they want to leave.

Morgan:

And that's something that you've really developed a lot. The last resort technique, when your spouse is trying to leave you when they're done, there are ways to actually save your relationship.

Brad:

And I'll just briefly go over that, and we're going to do this in a future show. Basically there's four things that you want to do, and these are one sided. But when you're trying to get someone back, they're leaving for very specific reasons. And so we're going to discuss those in a different show. We're not going to get into those today, but there's things that need to be done. And so it's not hopeless at the very least.

Morgan:

Yeah, definitely. It's not hopeless. We can definitely help. There are ways to rekindle the relationship. And today we're talking about the different types of affairs. There's 10 different types, but we are on the third, the sex addicts

Brad:

Affair, the sex addicts Affair. These affairs are committed by individuals. This could be male or female, to have an ongoing pattern of sexual betrayal such as frequenting, topless bars or adult bookstores, viewing pornography, compulsive masturbation, prostitution, repetitive encounters with sexual partners and other behaviors that are destructive to both the individual and to the marital relationship.

Morgan:

So this is kind of that stereotypical one that everyone thinks, oh, if they've made the mistake of having an affair, that they all kind of are lumped into this category. But it's not entirely true that everybody is,

Brad:

No, it's not a sex addict. Not everybody who has a one night stand is a sex addict or goes to topless bars. Whoever better be that goes to topless bars is not a sex addict. But here's the important thing with this. If you have, I would say a majority of these things that we just listed, a pattern of sexual betrayal, like topless bars, adult bookstores, viewing pornography, compulsive masturbation, prostitution, repetitive encounters with sexual partners, those can be evidence of a sex addict. And let me say this, I know we talked about one night stand a few minutes ago, when a sex addict has a one night stand. This is someone who seeks out the opportunity for sex. And so I had a guy one time I worked with, he would pick up women from bus stops on his car and he would have sex with 'em. And he did this 17 times. So he had 17 one night stands,

Morgan:

Oh my gosh, that he

Brad:

Could remember, that he could remember at this point. And the guy is a sex addict. Now those a little bit more than one night stands. And so if you've traveled for business and you've had one night stands, you may not be necessarily a sex addict. You probably have very bad boundaries, but it is worth exploring so that you can get the right treatment for it. Because one of the things in rebuilding your marriage back is the behavior has to stop. Trust has to be rebuilt. And each time that a one night stand reoccurs, you are demolishing any sort of progress that's been rebuilt.

Morgan:

And these people that are seeking out these sexual relationship, there's not even really a relationship. Sexual experiences. Sometimes they feel like they just can't find the fulfillment in their marriage.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah. It's

Morgan:

A deep void.

Brad:

Well, even though they're married, they haven't found complete fulfillment from their marriage. In fact, they're enslaved by desire to satisfy their longings. They're driven by obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors. They're powerless over their extramarital attachments to these behaviors to people or objects like pornography. They're really powerless to this. These individuals look to extramarital attachments to meet the need for love and acceptance instead of allowing their mate to fulfill these needs.

Brad:

And

Brad:

So this is really important. What they have is they have a huge amount of toxic shame. They feel really unacceptable as a person. They feel unlovable. They feel shame is what gets them into sex addiction. And these individuals are looking for sex to meet the need for love and acceptance that they have. And unfortunately, it just creates more, and I'm going to get into this in a minute, but that shame that comes from being a sex addict just creates, in fact, more of a compulsive need for sex addiction.

Morgan:

This category is not about the marriage as much as it is about the addiction. Is that correct?

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah. Sex addicts don't typically have affairs because there's issues with the marriage. Now, they may blame the marriage when they get caught. Well, you did this to me one time, or that happened, or this happened. So that's my excuse for seeing topless bars and pornography and having a string of 17 women. They can use that as an excuse, but not that the marriage didn't have issues, but that's them trying to save face. Most likely, they would've pursued these same behaviors whether they were married or not, or if they were married to Miss America, they still would've pursued these kinds of things. And so this is key. The shame and fear associated with this type of behavior perpetuates the dual life of an addict propelling the destructive behaviors. It just creates more of this. And so they often feel hopeless. They feel trapped by these behaviors, and they're afraid to come clean because they don't want to lose their marriage or give up their addictive behavior. And so this type of betrayal, it's especially difficult for the spouse who's been betrayed because their suffering is not just from the betrayal, it's from their inability to understand their mate's behavior.

What the addict has done seems so foreign. The spouse cannot comprehend it. So finding out why is really important in this.

Morgan:

Yeah, that why is so important.

Brad:

Yeah. One of the things a sex addict could do is even have sex with someone of the same gender when they're not a homosexual, they could still have a sex with someone of the same gender, and that really makes it hard. And so figuring out why, what makes it hard to recover is not knowing why,

Morgan:

Because they really have a deep void that needs to be filled. It's

Brad:

A shame. Shame and the guilt. Yeah. There's so much shame there. I'm such a bad person and they're trying to remove that toxic shame. I'm such a bad person that they're looking for sex and acceptance. It's

Morgan:

Almost like sometimes self abuse, sometimes pursuing something that will

Brad:

Exactly. Yeah. I'm just going to go through these characteristics real quick. One of the things that can happen with this is when the betrayed spouse, they're in such a shock because it is outside the norms of healthy sexuality, obviously. And so they're so shocked about this

Brad:

At

Brad:

The magnitude of the compulsive behavior that makes it also difficult for a couple to recover.

But the characteristics of this is it's a habitual pattern of extreme behaviors that are either sexually related or they're relational. So that means somebody can have a series of flings that are emotional affairs, like through text messaging or emails or things like that, and not quite reach sex, but they may have phone sex or something like that. Typically, the betrayer wants to save the marriage, but they still have a compelling drive to look elsewhere to meet their needs. They want to save the marriage, but they still have this compelling need to be a sex addict and act out sexually. Often these behaviors began before the marriage, and this was really important. They stopped after they got married, and then they began again after the addict realized that being married couldn't meet the needs that they have the same way as acting out does

Brad:

The addictive

Brad:

Behaviors. And so that's really important. So they may stop for a little bit and then kind of go back to it after getting married. It is common for the betrayer to have made past efforts to stop the behavior and to have actually been successful for a season only to relapse after believing things were better.

Morgan:

They

Brad:

Kind of feel like to

Morgan:

Let their guard down,

Brad:

They feel like, well, I can stand over the edge of this cliff and look down. And this is important. And this is a huge part of why this sex addiction continues is betrayer has a deep sense of shame and guilt, and the behavior creates more shame and guilt, and they have tons of shame that leads them into this kind of lifestyle

Morgan:

Negative cycle.

Brad:

Yeah, just reinforces it. The sex addict needs to be an individual counseling for their addiction. Being remorseful, not cure a sex addict, you need to go to a therapist who specializes in this. Recovering from an affair is not possible until the betrayer gets the help they need for their addiction. I say this because unless they get the help they need, it will happen again and again until this is dealt with directly.

Morgan:

And what's really important is you really need to go to someone. You can't just say, oh, my spouse is a sex addict, but you're not the therapist. So go to a qualified person before you just make the assumption that they're an addict.

Brad:

Because a sex addiction diagnosis is a heavy diagnosis and you need to make sure that it's a legitimate diagnosis, something that you have to fill out. And yeah, that's legitimate. In Oklahoma, one out of six couples will do marriage counseling with a professional before divorce, which is really low. That is low. That's pretty bad. But it talked about the lime affair, and we're going to talk about the second type of the liran affair. This first type is more the classical type of liran affair where a person feels like they're madly in love with someone and they want to leave the marriage because they want to be with that person as their soulmate. But may happen is they may leave the marriage to be with that person and then come back. They may leave home to be with that person, and then when they're away, they feel guilty, so they'll come back home. And that's just a stance of insanity that

Morgan:

Happens. And then while they're at home, they feel the longing to be with their other

Brad:

Partner, the other person. And that puts you through the grinder when you go through that. Then there's a sex addicts

Morgan:

Affair, and there's very, a small percentage of people that actually have a sex addiction

Brad:

Affairs. Yeah, actually there's a very few number, but when they do, it's very clear because it's a lot of people,

Morgan:

A lot of people that they've had an affair with is what you're saying.

Brad:

Yeah. The shared interest affair, that's what we're going to talk about today, the emotional affair and the idealized love affair, which is the second type of limmer and affair. We're going to talk about Flanders men and women who are Flanders, who think it's pretty much normal or morally to have sex. They cross the line and they don't think they're cheating or they think it's okay to cheat

Morgan:

Sex outside of marriage, right?

Brad:

Yeah. It could be sex, it could be kissing other types of sex other than intercourse. Then there's a sexually abuse affair where someone's sexually abused their spouse. Mistakes set for an affair, the revenge affair. This is when someone's been betrayed and they don't have their spouse to help them try to heal, and they want to make them feel the same pain they have. So the revenge affair and then the exit affair. And so the shared interest affair, and let me say this before we get into this. Every affair, these are put in the categories. Some of this is information that I've created. Some of this is information from Rick Reynolds. He's a therapist down in Austin, and some of this is from Dave Carter who's also, and all three of us work with infidelity, and there's pretty much about 10 different types of affairs, and there could be more than that. But just for the sake of classification, they're put into 10 different types of affairs. So not every affair may clearly fit into one category that we're discussing in this series of types of affairs. So may not fit perfectly. There may be more than one category that your affair sits into. And so it's good

Morgan:

To know.

Brad:

It's very important to know that. So the shared interest affair in this situation, the betrayer, they'll be involved with a single person, and at the same time, they don't want to leave the marriage to the person having the affair. They look at their fair partner as a soulmate. And these affairs frequently spring from a relationship in which the two individuals share something in common, such as music, art, or other interests. Could be movies, it could be technology, it could be just something that they don't have in common with their spouse.

Brad:

And

Brad:

So they turn to the affair partner for understanding companionship and support. It is as if the betrayer develops two lives, they share one part of themselves with their mate, and then they reserve another aspect of life for their affair partner.

And pretty much every affair has, I would say most affairs have some element of this where they kind of have a duality. You kind have a secret fantasy life, but this is a little bit more developed in this type of affair. So let me repeat that last thought. The betrayer will develop two lives. They share one part of themselves with their mate, and then they reserve another aspect of life for their affair partner. Daily activities and information are divided into two realms that which will be shared with her spouse and that which will be shared with the affair partner. Usually this type of affair indicates that there are other deficits in the marriage.

Morgan:

There's just a lack of closeness, and somehow

Brad:

There could be a lack of closeness. There could be closeness, it could be lack of time together, that kind of thing. Lemme be clear here. Marital problems is no excuse for infidelity. Just because you have issues doesn't mean it's okay to go cheat.

And those are areas that need to be addressed in order to strengthen the marriage. So some of the common characteristics of this type of affair is the individuals want to stay married who have the affair. It's unusual for the affair partner to be referred to as a soulmate. It can't happen, and there may be a little bit of limerence in this type of affair as well. The betrayal's life is divided into two parts, the part shared with their spouse and the part they share with the affair partner. So in two different distinct needs are being met by these two different relationships. An important part of figuring out why and this kind of affair is asking, how are you different?

Morgan:

Interesting. Yeah,

Brad:

Because why is an affair? Because you're different in this type of relationship. You like how you feel in that. So asking how you're different would help understand a little bit more of the motivation, why someone had that affair and what they were drawn to. And so Morgan, the next part is the emotional affair.

Morgan:

This fifth type of affair is commonly referred to as an emotional affair. This is the fifth on our list, although some would not consider an emotional entanglement, an affair because it hasn't been consummated. And a lot of people don't see it.

Brad:

If you're not having sex, it's not an affair,

Morgan:

Which that's what they might think. But truly,

Brad:

That's what betrayers many times think.

Morgan:

Yeah, this type of relationship can be just as devastating and destructive as a sexual affair. Emotional affairs are not commonly discussed. And frequently their lack of sexual involvement, like we said, is used as to why it's not an affair. But technicalities in no way absolve the reality of the situation. So usually when a person has to put the word just in front of the word friend, there's a problem. The notion that a lack of sexual involvement somehow prevents this type of relational intimacy from being an affair. And it really is baffling. And anytime someone other than our mate is permitted to enter the most intimate areas of our life, we're just giving something that we have no right to give, and we have already given and committed our heart to another, to our spouse. And so sharing intimate details of your life with someone else other than your spouse, that's an affair. One good way to identify this type of affair is if your mate's best friend,

Brad:

Best friend,

Morgan:

Yes, has more information or insights about your mate's life than you do, does this friend know more about your marriage than you do if your mate is closer to a friend than to you? It is already an affair. And it may seem harmless because they've yet to cross the sexual physical line, but it is an affair nonetheless. And a lot of times these do lead to the physical affair. So the characteristics really are boundary issues. That's a factor. The betrayer is better friends with that individual than his or her spouse. The betrayer keeps secrets with his friend instead of with his or her spouse. The betrayer does not want to choose between the friend and the spouse, and the betrayer wants to stay married. Usually this one seems more sneaky to

Brad:

Me.

Morgan:

It seems a lot more sneaky. It kind of sneaks in.

Brad:

Yeah. People honestly have a hard time knowing if it's an affair.

Morgan:

The

Brad:

One who's been betrayed, they say, yes, it's an affair. The one who was involved in it many times, they don't feel like it was an affair because, oh, it's just my friend. I did talk about things, but they were telling me things. They were telling me about things going on with them. And so a little bit more, I want to go over a few more things that kind of help clarify this. It's an emotional affair if you're keeping the details of this relationship secret from your spouse, that's one way to note. It's an emotional fear. So you're keeping the details of this relationship secret from your spouse, you're saying, and doing things with the other person that you wouldn't do with your spouse present. So you're saying or doing things with this other person that you wouldn't do with your spouse present.

Morgan:

If your spouse wasn't there, you probably would change your tune.

Brad:

Maybe you wouldn't even go to that area. You're sharing things with the other person that you wouldn't share with your spouse, and you're making an effort to arrange to spend time with the other person. And this is important too. People who get involved in emotional affair typically weren't looking for an affair. They didn't intend to have an affair, and they didn't think they were vulnerable to having an affair. And so that's really important.

Morgan:

And the truth is, we're all vulnerable. We have to always keep our antenna up, our antennas up

Brad:

And about half of emotional affairs do develop into a physical relationship.

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

And about 79% of people weren't seeking an affair. Were not seeking an affair. And that's information from dear peggy.com. He was an affair recovery expert as well. And so many times people just think it's harmless. But the fact is that these things do turn sexual. And many times the distance between no physical contact and kissing is a longer distance between kissing and physical intimacy.

Morgan:

Will you say that one more time?

Brad:

Yeah. That the distance between no physical contact and kissing is a much longer distance than when people start kissing. And the

Morgan:

Physical

Brad:

Intimacy that develops,

Morgan:

It's much easier to go from kissing to physical.

Brad:

It's just a natural progression of things. And so that's an emotional affair. The next type of affair, and this is the other type of a lime affair,

Okay, strongly lime idealized love affair. This is a love addiction that's characterized by repetitive pattern of moving from one relationship to the next, falling into a love that doesn't exist. Although this pattern has an addictive quality to it, these are not necessarily sexual relationships. They also do not fall under the category of people who have become emotionally involved in an inappropriate friendship. There is a compulsive pattern to their behavior. It is about the feeling of falling in love with that one right person. So this type of affair is about the feeling of falling in love with that one right person of

Morgan:

Butterflies, that you get that thing.

Brad:

And of course they can't find that one right person. So this never ending search for the one right person prevents full commitment to a marriage. And having discovered that their mate isn't the right person, Mr. Or Mrs. Wright, these people will compulsively pursue the search for their soulmate. And we've had this in our office where people will come in and want to leave their spouse because they think they found their soulmate, they think they found it, and they've met their spouse through an affair as well.

Brad:

And

Brad:

So it's kind of this progression like this, and it's really, they're looking for that falling in love, that perfect fairytale type relationship

Morgan:

That doesn't, that's not accurate, doesn't

Brad:

Exist

Morgan:

Realistic,

Brad:

And they're looking for the right person instead of trying to be the right person.

And so falling in love is not this falling in love thing that they're looking for is not love at all. When this occurs, it is not even about the other person. It's how it makes them feel about themselves. Anyone who has fallen in love will eventually fall out of love and then must choose to love because love grows in stages. You have the romantic love, then you experience disillusionment, and then you have mature love where you choose to love. So anybody in every relationship moves past romantic love, nature's way of helping us bond with each other, develop a relationship with each other, but it moves on to disillusionment, begin to see flaws and weaknesses. And then you have to choose to

Brad:

Love.

Brad:

And these people keep thinking, well, crap, I want this romantic love feeling. I like this being in love feeling. And they keep looking for that. And when it ends with one relationship, they go to the next for it. And so pretty much anyone who has fallen in love is going to fall out of love. And you have to choose to love

What real love is. True love is based on knowing the other person and letting that person know you. This is a healthy intimacy and not this false intimacy. The love addict has mistaken for love. They've clung to and obsessively pursued, and that's that part of limerence. So characteristics of this, it occurs in male and females, but it can happen more often with females. The betrayer will be ambivalent about their marriage. They also tend to overvalue the person they're infatuated with. They may think this person is the greatest thing ever. They're incapable of judging the negative characteristics of the affair partner. While they may see the defects, they won't give these defects any weight, whether they see them as unique or special. So even the negative flaws of this person they look at is unique or special.

Morgan:

And is that before they actually join in a relationship with that person and then see more clearly, or is it just like an infatuation that wears off over time? Is that

Brad:

It could be, yeah. Usually it wears off over time

Morgan:

And then they start to see those flaws maybe differently at that time when the infatuation wears

Brad:

Off. Well, yeah, they'll notice 'em as flaws then. But when they, they're involved in and this in love feeling, they don't even really consider, many times they don't even consider the weaknesses. And when they do, they might look at it as, oh, he only has a temper because he's just passionate about stuff. Yeah, he's a passionate, he gets so passionate, he punches holes in the wall. Gosh, I love somebody who's so passionate about

Brad:

Life.

Brad:

That's how they'll look at it. It could be something that silly so occurs more often with females. They tend to be ambivalent about their marriage. I love my spouse, but I'm not in love with my spouse.

We'll hear that, and that's a sign of this kind of affair or even any affair really. But they tend to be ambivalent. They've experienced this kind of relationship with someone else, and they want to try to recreate that with their spouse, and they may decide to leave them and they don't feel that emotional bond that's there. They also tend to overvalue the person they're infatuated with. We were talking about that a moment ago. They're really incapable of judging the negative characteristics of the affair partner. And that's because of nce. And we talked about that before in a previous show. The Thence is also known as love sickness, love addiction, infatuation, obsessive love, romantic love, and it really just clouds your judgment on how you see things. These defects may be seen, they don't really consider it. They may see 'em as unique or special, kind of what I was talking about with the anger. This may not be an actual relationship with a person they're infatuated with. It could be like an obsession that's not reciprocated

Morgan:

Interesting.

Brad:

So it could be somebody they work with.

Morgan:

It's like a challenge.

Brad:

It could be like a challenge, but that's also how ence works. It's when eye contact's made. It's when you find someone that you think is attractive or you think that's interested in you, and there's eye contact with them. Many times, that's kind of when Rin starts. We've talked about that progression.

Morgan:

It's fall. That's the fall

Brad:

Like

Morgan:

You talked about. Yeah.

Brad:

And so they may not even have a relationship with this person. And these betrayers will often frequently complain about the lack of romantic love in their relationship. They feel like they've married the wrong person,

Morgan:

The marital relationship. Yeah.

Brad:

They'll complain about the lack of love in their marital relationship, and they'll complain about, gosh, I think I married the wrong person here. And they'll experience obsessive thoughts about the romantic partner, this lime object. And that's really what happens is this person becomes objectified that they feel in love, they're in love with. They wouldn't say that, but that's typically how psychologists described this experience. This person becomes an object. They experience obsessive thoughts about this new romantic partner. They spend time, they spend as much as 80% of their time awake thinking about this person trying to determine how this other person feels about 'em. And the obsessive nature of this relationship creates unrealistic expectations of the love object. So this kind of relationship, but they're so obsessed with it that they create unrealistic expectations, interesting of this person that they're in love with. This person's got to be God or walk on water, or they have these really unhealthy, unrealistic views of who this person is.

Morgan:

And you had mentioned just a couple of seconds ago about most of the time they feel like, well, maybe they married the wrong person, but it seems like a lot of these affairs, they might say that, well, I just don't know if I married the right person. But I could imagine once you dig in and find out, well, why they had the affair, what the reasons are, how they view their relationship and love and that other person, that's when you can determine that it's this really, we shouldn't be pathologizing our spouse or trying to just based on one radio show trying

Brad:

To figure out, because these affairs, honestly, every affair has a lot of these characteristics,

The duality between the spouse and the affair partner, the feeling of love, feeling like you've made a mistake. There's a lot of commonality in a lot of these different types of affairs. But what we've done is we've really classified these to make it easier to understand what's happening in those affairs. One of the key things to understanding why is really asking that question, and we've been over this before, but it's worth repeating, how are you different in this affair? That's so important because a lot of this, as you can see from each one of these affairs, it goes from someone to talk to someone I have a shared interest in, and then someone who I think is this right person. Yeah. The soul need. It goes from these different experiences, and each person going through an affair has different

Brad:

Motivations.

Brad:

And so just to classify one, it's always this way. It's not always that way.

Brad:

There

Brad:

May be similarities, but these categories are helpful in just understanding where your spouse is at. And if you've had an affair, you may fit in more than one category. You may fit in two categories or three categories. In recovering from an affair, it really, it's important to disclose all secrets. And that's very hard for people to do because the person who had the affair has so much shame and embarrassment. They feel like talking about the affair only makes it worse for their spouse. But healing from an, it's important to be honest, transparent, and show your spouse that you're willing to do whatever it takes. And if it's difficult to talk about the affair, you need to talk about your fear with your spouse on why this is so difficult for you because your spouse thinks that you don't care about 'em or they think you're still involved in the affair. But if you talk about how this is difficult for you to talk about this, how you're afraid of making them hurt, how you're ashamed, don't want to relive this, how you want to put this behind you, the guilt is so strong that will help your spouse begin to heal as well.

Speaker 6:

But

Brad:

Your spouse is going to keep asking for answers and want to talk about it, talk about your fear, talk about how hard this is for you to talk about it. That's okay too.

Morgan:

It's a great place to go and

Brad:

Start. It's a great place to start.

Morgan:

And we've said in the past, the first 90 days are the hardest. It's, would you say two years to rebuild the

Brad:

Trust? Yeah. Typically it depends on how well couples manage that negative cycle if they get into. And that's what we try to help couples really with. And honestly, you don't see that too much in a fair recovery, especially some of the books or information online.

Morgan:

You don't see what too much.

Brad:

You don't see people really address the negative cycle, in my opinion. They give you instructions on how to talk about it, but they don't talk about the motivations behind each person, what they're needing. And so getting professional help dealing with the negative cycle, because ultimately honesty is important for building trust, but ultimately what helps you heal besides the honesty is the emotional connection with your spouse. And you've got to get out of the negative cycle because the negative cycle you're trying to heal with many times is the negative cycle you had before the affair.

Morgan:

And the negative cycle is that pattern of a

Brad:

Bit pattern of interacting,

Morgan:

Interaction, yeah,

Brad:

Yeah. Attacking each other of avoiding each other. So you got to deal with that.

Morgan:

Right. Do you want to recap what we talked about and then we'll go on to the last few?

Brad:

Yeah. There are 10 different types of affairs. I've identified some of these. Rick Reynolds from Austin, Texas has identified some of these as well, 10 different types of affairs. There is the one night stand, this occurs generally when someone has had too much to drink and being anonymous is involved, they want to stay in the marriage. It's not an ongoing relationship at times. It can morph into an ongoing relationship though. And let me pause and say this, Morgan, we're categorizing these affairs for the purpose of understanding them. Our listeners who have gone through an affair, their affair may contain more than one category. Kind of like I was saying a moment ago about the one night stand that can lead into a relationship. I've seen that in my office. It begins that way, but then a relationship starts so it becomes an emotional affair. Your affair, your experience may not fit nicely into only one category can be divided into two or three categories. And so this is just to help us understand things better. So there's the one night stand, we talked about that. And then there's the liran affair and liran affairs. This is more the classic liran affair. There's another liran affair that we talked about last week, but in this classic liran affair, this is when two people feel like they're in love and they feel powerless over these emotions of love. And limerence is that feeling, and we've spent time talking about this too.

It's that feeling of infatuation love, romantic love, obsessive love. When you're not around that person, you feel despair. You wonder, do they feel that way about me? So there's despair there. So they want to be with their affair partner. And then what can happen as well is there is feelings of guilt because you see what you're doing to your family, what you're doing to your spouse. And in fact, we had someone in our office this past week, very first session who came in with this, and this is kind of that classic liran affair. And so you see this, it can kind of grow in stages, so you don't always see at this level of maturity. This guy's been at, and let me say this,

Brad:

He

Brad:

Was already in that place of ambiguity after one month of experiencing this. So that liran feeling develops quickly and it causes doubt

Morgan:

Sometimes by locking eyes that someone could fall into this love sickness that's

Brad:

Infatuation. They think they either find that person attractive and they lock eyes with 'em. And then the other part of that is they feel like that person could be interested in them. Those are things that are at play

Morgan:

And it's the love object that we've talked about

Brad:

To Yeah, they're a love object,

Morgan:

The object that satisfies their imagination.

Brad:

And so when someone experiences a limmer and affair, they believe that they want out of the marriage. Sometimes it's a friendship that's developed into a romance. The betrayer is willing to sacrifice life as they know it, to have the opportunity to be with that affair partner, this dance of insanity, of going back and forth between the marriage and the affair partner, the guilt and the shame about leaving, and then the ecstasy when they're with the affair partner. That can continue for a long time. And so then the next type of affair that we discovered was a sex addicts affair. We discussed characteristics of sex addiction. What happens with that?

Morgan:

And there's a very small percentage of affairs that are actually, because we think that sex addiction is every affair. When we look at it on TV or something like that, people assume it must be just like 99% of the affairs are,

Brad:

And I'm not a sex addiction expert, but I would say very little has been sex addiction or very extreme cases of sex addiction.

In our practice, we've seen at least 200 couples, probably with an affair. I can easily think of three that had an extreme case of sex addiction. And then there's people involved in pornography, and that's not necessarily sex addiction, but I can think of three, maybe four out of 200. So it'ss not as common as the media portrays it, but it's also, it's something that's very real. Then we talked about the shared interest affair. This is when the beary is involved with a single person, but at the same time, they don't want to leave the marriage and then to the person having an affair, they view this person as a soulmate and the betrayer wants to stay married and their life is divided into two parts. The part shared with their spouse and the part that's shared with the fair partner, and they feel like two different sets of needs are met in those two different relationships. Sometimes these affairs frequently spring from a relationship where these two individuals share something in common, such as music, art, or another interest could be anything, computers, and they're just techies and they like discussing that kind of thing.

Morgan:

They connect on

Brad:

That level, they connect on that level, and so it's something that they don't share in common with their spouse. So they turn to the affair partner for understanding companionship and support. Then we talked about the emotional affair, and most affairs obviously have an element of emotional of what an emotional affair is. We talked about that boundary issues are a factor, how the betrayer can be better friends with this person than with their spouse. How the becher can keep secrets with this person instead of with their spouse, how the betrayer doesn't want to have to choose between their friend and their spouse, and ultimately the becherer does want to stay married.

Morgan:

Some for that one is if the person that you're striking up a friendship with knows more about your relationship and what's going on than your spouse does, then you're heading down that path.

Brad:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a good point. And this is the other limmer and affair that we talked about. I call this the I want to be in love affair. There's two different types. The one that we described earlier with the guilt and the ambiguity about staying and going where the guy after a month had already just been liran with someone was already kind of wanting out of the marriage. And then this is the other liran affair. I want to be in love affair, and this is kind of a love addiction that's characterized by repetition, repetitive pattern of moving from one relationship to the next, falling into a love that doesn't last, kind of keep looking for the perfect person, the perfect love. The perfect love experience is really what they're looking for. It's

Morgan:

An idealized, just an idealized version of a human being,

Brad:

And it occurs with men and women. I've seen it happen with both. They're all about falling in love more than anything else, and they've got to find that one right person. That's a search that never ends. They've bought into a lie. It's almost like a fairytale they've bought into.

Morgan:

Someday my prince or princess will come.

Brad:

Yeah,

Morgan:

We've talked about that.

Brad:

Then the a flander is affair, and the flander is someone who basically believe that cheating is justifiable. It's morally in some way, as long as it's not intercourse, it's okay. Honestly, you'll see this a lot. People who go to a lot of these conventions for work or trade shows, things like that. A lot of these conventions, there's a lot of people hooking up at those kinds of things, like a one night stand. They're anonymous, maybe not any alcohol involved, but they'll have these different things. And in a way, it's kind of like this, Hey, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. It's this kind of flander attitude they may have and they can be influenced by a parent who was a cheater.

Morgan:

It's kind of a rite of passage. Yeah.

Brad:

I remember my dad telling me his dad was a cheater, and my dad telling me one time that having an affair was a rite of passage. And I remember thinking, dad, that's the dumbest thing anybody's ever told me that you've ever told me either. And that was he's older and he's from a different part of the country. That's just part of his generation or his mindset at the time.

And the people that are most the harm with this are people who, honestly, I think it's morally just people who have lack of integrity, the moral factor, people who they think it's okay for me to do it, but if you were to do that, me as a man, it's okay, but for you as a woman to do that, that's not acceptable. And so there's a double standard there, obviously. And then some cultures, I have an unsaid expectation that men will have women on the side, and some women are okay with that. And so that's a kind of flander affair, and we talked about that a little bit more detail last time. Then I want to get into the sexual abuse affair.

Morgan:

So basically this is the eighth type of affairs that we've identified, and this affair occurs when somebody has been raped or forced into sex by another individual, but the spouse of that person doesn't believe that he or she has been taken advantage of, so it's quite tricky. Maybe sometimes that person has experienced an emotional affair. Maybe they've had an emotional

Brad:

Affair. Yeah. Morgan, you some examples of this while we're talking about this so people can understand. Well, I had a situation one time where a woman was having an emotional affair

Brad:

With

Brad:

A guy, and when it turned sexual, she resisted it. She didn't want to go sexual, and the guy raped her, basically he raped her against her will. So the

Morgan:

Husband didn't believe her.

Brad:

Yeah. Had a very hard time believing that something like that happened. He's dealing with his own pain, doesn't trust her. He's been deceived enough. He's like, well, this is a pretty creative deception. So he had a hard time believing that. And then another time, there's a third time, I've seen this a few times. Another time this happened is where, and that's actually happened a couple of times where women have gotten raped and their husbands,

Morgan:

It's very hard for them to believe

Brad:

That. Yeah, it's very hard to believe it because of the boundaries they were crossing

Morgan:

And the trust that was violated

Brad:

Originally. Yeah, and I know this probably is a little controversial as talking about this, it's very hurtful for the person who's been involved. There's shame from being abused like that and then turning for support and not getting it. So both people are suffering and getting help with this type of affair, I would say is very vital.

Someone who's got experience in working with affairs and with couples, it's very, very, very important because it is just vital. Another time where I've seen this is a guy that knew a female that he worked with. She was sending him pictures. He didn't tell his wife anything about it. He didn't say stop it or anything. He kind of felt flattered getting these kind of lewd pictures. One day she comes on him sexually and in the middle of it, after about a minute into it, he says, I can't do this. I just can't do this. This isn't right.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

Tries to back away. Yeah. Tries to back away from it. And then she accuses him of raping her. This is a very, very, very dangerous thing. And it's obviously hard for both people involved. It's obviously hard for the one who's in the middle of it who experienced this. I usually say the injured spouse, the one who's been betrayed, both her kind of injured in the situation, but the one who wasn't involved, the one who feels like they've been cheated on, it's really hard for them. And consequently, that makes it much harder for the one who was involved in that kind of thing.

Morgan:

So the moral of the story is if someone is sending you text messages or always be above board and talk to your spouse about everything, being open and honest is so crucial because things like this happen.

Brad:

Well, and part of what makes it hard is that person was still involved in some gray, and that makes it hard for the one who's been betrayed to really go along with the story and believe everything. They were like, whatever. Come on,

Morgan:

You were already doing something.

Brad:

And then another time, a woman who was just drugged and she was taken advantage of. And so there's things like this that happen. There are people out there that do this kind of thing, unfortunately,

Morgan:

And they prey on people too.

Brad:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Morgan:

They're looking for you to let your guard down and to,

Brad:

Yeah. And it's men and women that do this. It's women as well. It's not just men.

Morgan:

Oh, right. Yeah.

Brad:

That prey.

Morgan:

Well, there's some characteristics here. Yeah, go ahead. A few of these are sexual contact was attempted or forced on the spouse. Kind of like in your examples, the spouse may have started to be a willing participant at first, but changed their mind at some time during sexual activity. Sometimes. Usually in the beginning I would say, well, but then again, it could be in the middle.

Brad:

And lemme say this, Morgan, the spouse, they might've been willing to participate in it first and then change their mind, or they could have been not involved and forced. They could have been passive, not involved at

Speaker 6:

All.

Brad:

And because this is rare, the spouse who wasn't involved, the spouse who feels like they've been betrayed, they typically don't believe their spouse was raped or taken advantage of, which only leads to more shame for the injured spouse,

Morgan:

For

Brad:

The involved spouse.

Morgan:

Absolutely. I mean, gosh, just imagine not being believed when you've been hurt from that. Oh, it's horrible. It's horrible. Yeah.

Brad:

Yeah. It's horrible. It's ridiculous pain.

Morgan:

So both people need healing big time. And this happens like you said, with both men and women. And Brad, do you want to go on to the revenge affair?

Brad:

Yeah, the revenge affair. This is a affair that occurs after a spouse has been betrayed. They feel like they're not healing fast enough or they feel like the betrayer isn't helping them heal or they're not getting it. They're not being honest, they're not. They're continuing the deception. They're still involved in their own affair in a way. They're kind of throwing up your hands saying, you know what?

Morgan:

If you're going to do that to me,

Brad:

I'm going to do it to you.

And so they want to make the spouse who's having the affair understand the pain that they're in and to wake 'em up sometimes and to wake 'em up. And typically this occurs after several months of trying. And I've seen this typically, it's kind of almost like a last ditch effort where they're trying to get a response out of their spouse on a matter to 'em. And so typically several months after trying to recover from the affair, they feel like they're not getting answers as to why it occurred or they're not getting that person there to help them. And they're like, you know what?

Morgan:

I'm lonely. I'm tired.

Brad:

Yeah, I'm going to do this on my own. I'm tired of hurting. And so they have kind of a revenge affair. And I've seen this happen a few times where people just get so exhausted, so burned out, and they feel like they're the only one trying to make it work, that they're like, I'm going to show you what it feels like. And then they go do it. That can be difficult if you don't have a therapist who's trained in an infidelity, that can be difficult. I remember the first time I saw that the first two times I saw that that was pretty difficult because you got someone who's burned out having their own affair. Then you've got someone who, who's been caught in an affair for some time not helping their spouse heal. And then all of a sudden they feel betrayed and they're like, Hey, you just hurt me. How come? But they have

Morgan:

No ground to stand on because they also have done it

Brad:

Well. But that's what the spouse who just had the revenge affair thinks. But now that person's been hurting as well because just now you abandoned me. You're not there for me anymore. And it gets complicated because both people are hurting, both feel abandoned. The spouse who just had the revenge affairs is saying, look, you've been abandon me all this time and now you're not helping me.

Morgan:

It's kind of like that whole adage of two wrongs, don't make a right because still pain begets pain and more

Brad:

Pain. It doesn't make it right. It doesn't help. And that's a tricky type of affair because when people get into that, both are hurting both one answers. And what's really hard about this is both of them are thinking of their own pain at the moment, and it's pretty deep. So both people are caught in their own pain and it's pretty hurtful.

Morgan:

It's really hard to step back and help your spouse when you feel so abandoned and hurt. Do you want to go to the next one or you want to say anything more about, I can talk about the next one.

Brad:

Yeah, go ahead and talk about the exit affair.

Morgan:

Okay. So the exit affair is an affair that occurs because the spouse doesn't care about the future of the marriage. So they're trying to do what they can to get out. They've reached a place where they simply don't care and really about being with their spouse. They get into an affair either as a way to end the relationship with their spouse or they're very susceptible to an affair because they're really investing so little time into the marriage. And when working with this type of affair, the betrayer may experience the feelings of ambiguity that we discussed earlier in the show. But what can be helpful in rebuilding the romantic love and influencing the betrayal to stay in the marriage is finding ways to do new, different and exciting activities together. But really another thing we've said in the show too is it's important not to try to go and do a romantic candlelight dinner because that person is really thinking

Brad:

Something like

Morgan:

New, different. They're thinking, gosh, I'm not in love with you. Why are we doing this? So one person you've talked about before, they've got tickets to the basketball game and they went and did that together because it's something that they knew that their spouse would really love and it would kind of wake them up.

Brad:

And it doesn't necessarily have to be things expensive, just new and different. It releases adrenaline in the brain. That helps. The other thing that helps though is honestly getting help. There's very little hope for this person when they're leaving. That's why they cheat. That's why they do this. It's almost kind of this rubber stamp, I'm done. This is me sticking the landing, so to speak.

Morgan:

And they're often very tired and withdrawn.

Brad:

So getting professional help that helps doing those exciting activities together helps. Also. The other thing is you have to deal with the negative cycles that come up because the negative cycle is what has led the person who's having an exit affair and to be burned out, to be vulnerable enough to have an affair. And let me say this, I would say most affairs that I've seen have had elements of an exit affair,

Morgan:

Tired. They're ready to leave, they're done.

Brad:

Most affairs that I've seen have had elements of an exit affair. Let me just describe briefly the psychology of a betrayer. Not every betrayer fits this category, and we'll spend more time talking about this on a future show. But briefly, the psychology of a betrayer that you get caught into a negative cycle. This person, because they're in a negative cycle, they then become resentful. They begin to not share things as much. They begin not to express their feelings and emotions and share things as much. And so that negative cycle creates that kind of climate for that. So this person, because there's a negative cycle there, it goes on long enough, they get to a place where they're not really talking as much. They're kind of more withdrawn. So they're not sharing as much. They're not opening up as much. They're not confiding as much. That right there makes them vulnerable. Vulnerable for an affair, obviously. And then they start feeling resentful, but they got hurt that are there. They feel resentful. They feel alone, they feel sad. And then they start kind of feeling numb, maybe a little indifferent. And then they start, this is the key thing. They start caring less about the marriage. And because they're caring less, they're extremely vulnerable to an affair, to someone new,

Morgan:

To

Brad:

Someone that's there

Morgan:

That

Brad:

They can open up to, that they can open up to share human. They have to talk about something. And that's why all these different things that we've seen, they really tie in well, I think to the exit affair. Not everybody that has it is really wanting to leave the marriage, but many times you'll see that where they're just kind of burned out. And that might be a better way to describe this as the burned out affair instead of the exit affair. But what they do is they care less about the marriage. They're vulnerable to someone else, vulnerable to an affair, and then they experience it. They experience that romantic love. They experience

Morgan:

That connection,

Brad:

That connection again, and

Morgan:

The attention from another person.

Brad:

And they feel good because they've been miserable and unhappy,

Morgan:

And they can feel like they can open up to that person in a way they couldn't with their spouse.

Brad:

And here's the tricky thing too. You'll have someone who before would never have an affair, but they get worn out so much that they're vulnerable to it and they're already thinking of it, and they'll justify it in their mind, well, we're not happy. We're going to divorce. I want a divorce. I want to leave.

Brad:

Yeah, we

Brad:

Splitting up

Brad:

Anyways.

Brad:

Yeah, we're splitting up anyways. And so then they's the way they justify it. But that's kind of a common thing that you see with a lot of affairs and the psychology of the betrayer. And so you could call the exit affair, probably the burned out affair.

Morgan:

Yeah, that makes sense. And if you'd like to read a little bit more about these affairs and just more information in general, you can check out our website,

Brad:

Go to our website. We have these on there,

Morgan:

Marriage solutions tulsa.com.

Brad:

Yeah, go to the blog on our website. Check that out. You'll get a lot of this good, helpful information,

Morgan:

And you can give us a call as well and can set an appointment with one of our therapists. 9 1 8 2 8 1 60 60.

Brad:

Yep. Our practice Marriage Solutions here in Tulsa, we have one of the only group practices just dedicated to marriage counseling. This is a think tank. This is an organization where we collaborate with each other. Everybody here has advanced training. We collaborate with each other.

Morgan:

We research and have created some

Brad:

Of the best methods for working with couples, and we're a place that's just marriages only and you want to go to a place like that because getting good help with a marriage is extremely difficult,

Morgan:

And we help couples and individuals with relationship issues. For example, if your spouse is leaving you and you'd like to stop your divorce, we can help you with that. We've helped people where they've already divorced each other and they've had second thoughts. We've helped them to remarry each other through couples counseling, and so there are a lot of different issues within the relationship that we can help you with. But yes, couples premarital, already married, couples experiencing difficulty and trauma, as well as if you just want a refresher on your relationship.

Brad:

Yeah, the couples that we've helped you have been divorced, they feel like your marriage has been restored,

Not just okay, they got back together, that kind of thing, but they feel like their marriage has been restored, and that's what's amazing. That's the most important part. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast, it's for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See, until next time.

Ep 22: "If You Cheat On Me I’ll Leave You” And Other Things People Say That Challenge the Conversation

Brad:

You're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse. For them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this.

Morgan:

You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you want to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. You've made it to episode 22 where we address the O. So important question of how do we talk about the affair. Some say it's not important to talk about the affair, that it's useless and will just make things worse, and others say you must talk about it and you can't heal without talking about it. So we're going to lay the myths to rest and talk about what really needs to happen for you to fully recover. Also, we want to hear from you and get your perspective on things. So if you want to share your thoughts or maybe you have some questions, then go on over to healing broken trust.com. Click on the tab called Weekly Calls and leave a voice message for us there. You can also download the free resources that go along with this episode@healingbrokentrust.com slash episode 22. That's episode and the number 22. And let's get started.

Brad:

This show we're talking about how to recover from an affair, the steps that need to be taken to recover the time. Basically everything that a person needs to know to work through this. We are discussing that in detail, in depth, and so you're not going to really hear this anywhere else. This is one of the big issues that people struggle with. We are here to help you guys work through this. In fact, we had an email that was sent into us that really, I think I've heard a lot from people, and I'm glad somebody sent this in. And it basically is this, Brad, how do I talk to my wife about this? She told me before I had this affair. I never want you to tell me if you've ever cheated on me. I don't want to know that because I've been betrayed by someone else before in a previous marriage.

And really to answer that question for that person, I would say most people before they're betrayed, they do not want to know any details. They would rather just not know because what I don't know is not going to hurt me. But after people know they've been betrayed and they know they've been cheated on, most people want to know in great detail about the affair. And so it's kind of different rules. Usually the person who's been betrayed, sometimes they'll say things like, I will leave you if you ever cheat on me, if you ever sleep with anybody else, I'll leave you. But after an affair, after you're really dealing with it and you're not in hypothetical situations, most people choose to stick around and try to work on it, and most people want to know about it because that's only way they find relief in healing.

In fact, only about 7% of people don't want to know anything about the affair. They don't want to talk about it. If your spouse falls into that 7% of people who don't want to know anything about it, who don't want to talk about it, you can't make them talk about it. You can't tell them anything about it. You just can't give them information. They don't want to know. And so you kind of only go as far as that injured spouse wants to know and the types of questions that they have. Hopefully that answers the listener question. Morgan, we've been talking about the ground rules on how to talk about an affair, and one of the things we said is how you talk about this, it's so much more important than really what is said. It needs to be in a climate of compassion, care, understanding. And so just to kind recap what we said is people need to schedule time to talk about this.

Morgan:

That's right. Yeah. Set aside that time and that journaling will help you to organize your thoughts and feelings so that you can make that time more productive. You talked about open limitations a little bit.

Brad:

Yeah, we talked about that a little bit last time. We're going to really get into that into detail today. The person who had the affair really needs to have a vomit session where they just get everything out and just purge. Just get it all out there, just get it all out there. And then common reaction is that people find this is not an easy process. It's like cough medicine. We talked about that. If people are talking about betrayal, they get angry, they get upset, and it's like cough medicine for both people

Morgan:

Because the medicine goes down and it's not tasty. It doesn't feel good at all.

Brad:

No, but it helps people get better.

Morgan:

The benefit is definitely seen

Brad:

Over time. And so sometimes spouses who've been betrayed, they can be very emotionally abusive, verbally abusive. And that's why we were talking about journaling as well, is just channel those emotions onto paper. And that way you're not lashing out of your spouse because they feel quite

Morgan:

Abused,

Brad:

Abused, also demotivated,

That kind of thing. The injured spouse is attacking during the discussions. You're only hurting the person who needs to be there as a healer for you. They're not going to be motivated to be there. And basically the last thing we left off with is it's important that spouse is not interrupt during the conversation. Discussing affair can get heated very quickly, and really you should try to do everything in your power not to let this happen. If you can learn just to sit and listen, not interrupt, write down questions, write down comments that you have in your journal, you're going to hear things that you may not hear. If you interrupt, you're going to hear things that you wouldn't hear if you interrupt them. And so that's what we left off is don't interrupt each other. Let the betrayer finish their thoughts, finish their sentences. If you feel like you're catching them in a lie or a white lie, really try to not interrupt them because you're not going to get all the information you need if you sit there and you pounce on them if you think you're making a mistake. And so that's kind of where we left off, Morgan. What are the other ground rules?

Morgan:

The next one really is it's important to discuss the affair in a way that gives your spouse reassurance that you're reassuring them that the affair will not happen again. And that's the most important thing. They need to know why, of course, but they also need to know this isn't going to happen again. It's not a pattern of betrayal and maybe it has in the past, but it won't go any further. So don't avoid or deny the affair or minimize the damage or fall into denial because it will only create more distrust. And that's the biggest thing is you want to create trust. And that's going to take a lot of time. If you as a betrayer find yourself becoming defensive, say to your spouse, Hey, I know I've hurt you. I want to make this better and I'm committed to the process, but I'm feeling attacked and I think we need to take a minute and breathe.

Brad:

Yeah, and Morgan, I'm glad you said that because it's so important in this process, the betrayer needs to be able to come to the injured spouse and just share everything and get it out there. And they need to get it all out

Morgan:

There and trust the process.

Brad:

They need to trust the process. But I like what you're saying. The betrayer needs to be proactive in this. They need to be the ones initiating conversations at times. They need to be proactive. They need to be

Morgan:

Open and honest. You need to take responsibility for the actions that they took, but also help your spouse by realizing that they're hurting and stop them from spiraling downward in uncontrollable anger by going to them and being open.

Brad:

And Morgan, what I like about what you just said is you're showing that important idea of I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

Most betrayers, they want to suppress information, but if you go to them and you initiate conversations about this, you go and you're willing to talk about it. You just tell them information about it. That helps the injured spouse, since they don't have to protect themselves as much, they sense you are here to help me heal. You are here to help me. I don't need to be in a self-protective mode. I don't need to keep my walls up. And so what you're saying is really important. One of the things that's really important almost as a word of caution is if you do not talk about this, if you don't discuss the affair, this is really the best way for people to recover from this is to talk about this, to deal with it upfront, to really just almost hug a cactus in a way. You just have to really deal with it. And if people are unwilling to discuss this, it results in a much slower recovery time increases the chances of divorce,

And it creates more distress. Like I said last week, the more that the injured spouse knows, the more they feel like they're healing. You do not want to fall into the trap as the betrayer of suppressing information. You feel like you're suppressing this because of your guilt. You don't want to make your spouse feel worse, but that suppressing of the information is actually causing them to feel worse, and it's going to keep you stuck in guilt longer. And suppressing information is going to keep you stuck in the fantasy of the affair, the secret of the affair, and those secrets in that fantasy. It's going to keep you from becoming emotionally invested back into the marriage and relationship the way you need to be.

And so the more you share, the more you're deconstructing that fantasy of what the affair was, and it's bringing you more into reality. You are entering the real world, you're entering into reality again, and it's helping you lose those feelings for the affair partner. And it's helping you reconnect. In fact, what it's doing is it is helping you reconnect with your spouse, but it's bringing a new level of intimacy that hasn't been there because there's a new level of honesty. You're being more open about your feelings, you're being more open about what you need from your spouse. And so that's why this step of talking about the affairs is so important.

Morgan:

Yeah, absolutely. But also the next point that we wanted to make was betrayers will need to revisit many different aspects of the affair multiple times. We've talked about that on the show quite a few times. Those obsessive or intrusive thoughts that you keep asking the same questions because you find and learn new things each time you ask the question. But discussing how they met with the affair partner once will not accomplish. It's usually more than once, typically that they'll ask the same questions, but each time it's discussed, you'll learn something new and that'll in turn help you to recover. For many couples, it does get annoying that they have to revisit the topic again and again, but involve spouses. The betrayer must maintain their composure. You must maintain your composure and let your spouse know that you're there to help them to heal and to recover. It's a huge, it's going to make a huge difference.

Brad:

And Morgan, one of the things that you said that's real important is you're going to have to discuss this multiple times, and this is what people think is, gosh, we've talked about this. I've already answered that question once. I've already answered it a few times, but now we're on the 20th time. You've asked that and I've answered it and I haven't changed it. Now we're on the hundredth time. Now we're in it into the hundreds of times. But here's the thing though, with this is the injured spouse, for them to overcome the trauma and really to recover from this, you do have to go through this. The injured spouse, it needs to be talked about. It's wrong for professional to tell somebody, look, it's been six months, it's been a year, it's been five years. Never bring it up again. That's just absurd. And it really shows a lack of understanding of the trauma recovery process for somebody from this type of particular trauma.

Morgan:

And the time that's passed, I mean, it could be two years, three years, 20 years, but pain is still there.

Brad:

Oh, yeah. Time doesn't heal

Morgan:

Anything. It's discussing it. It's talking about, it's working through it. I mean, some healing may occur, but the full healing,

Brad:

No, not the full healing. So people need to talk about it multiple times. There's different reasons why people need to talk about this multiple times or the same question multiple times. I would say the first reason is there's shattered assumptions that the injured spouse has about the betrayer. I no longer feel like I know who you are, so they're trying to reconstruct who this person is. Part of it is I just can't believe this. This has blown my mind. It's shocking. It's shocking. So just, I can't believe they said this. They did this. You're trying to reconstruct it. Another thing is it's like watching a movie like Inception. I love that movie,

But there's different layers to that plot. But every time you watch a movie like that where you talk about an affair, you're uncovering different layers of it. You're seeing something that you haven't seen before. And the more that the injured spouse can talk about this process, it, it's actually bringing healing to them. It's helping them become more complete. And you as a spouse who's had the affair, that's part of you being a healer, is really being patient with that, showing that you're willing to do whatever it takes. And it's going to take sometimes some questions literally hundreds of times to get answered. And that is frustrating, but that's part of for the maximum healing process to take place. It's going to be several times of just asking the same questions.

Morgan:

And there's one thing that you did mention earlier in one of the points that you made about the vomit session, making sure that you get it out there, get it all out. But one thing that I think ties into this that we need to probably remind people is if you don't vomit it out and new information gets in there, wedged in there where you haven't told everything, it's almost like starting over, like you've said before in the discovery process. It's a shock. So each time you discover a new layer or a new piece of information, it's like, oh my gosh. It's like going right back to the beginning of the hurt of the pain. It's pulled up, the scab has been ripped off. So it's important to get all of that information out there, but then you're still going to have those same questions over and over. But I mean, your story is the same because it's the truth. It just needs to be understood and rethought through again, probably.

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah. Morgan, you brought up another good point too, is really with the point that you made about

Morgan:

Having a vomit session, making sure

Brad:

That it's out there because when you bring it up like this and you have a vomit session or a purge session, you just get it all out and information is discovered later. That person, sometimes they feel like, gosh, I'm just starting over, or they feel like even, what else do I not know? Yeah, what else do I not know? And it keeps them hypervigilant on the defensive or wall is up.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

So that's more of the reason for you just to get everything out at once, as much as you can get it all out there. And that way they feel safer. And sometimes couples do struggle with that where, gosh, we're in this for three months or even a year and I find out something new, or even I've had some couples, five or six years later, they find out something new and it just kind of sets some, brings 'em back down on the ladder. And that's the importance of getting it all out there. And here's the thing too, I want to say about honesty is when you're honest about this, people stick around when they feel like you're being the healer and you're being honest. People do not stick around when they feel like you're being lied to. So if you're worried about, gosh, if my spouse really knows this or if they know that they're going to leave me, chances are they're probably going to stay. As long as they feel like you're being honest with them and you're transparent with them and you're really trying to rebuild things, they leave when they feel like, I'm not getting anywhere, you're not helping me.

Morgan:

And think about how light of a load you'll carry with being able to tell them everything and then getting through it and healing. I mean on your part as the betrayer as well, your conscience will thank you

Brad:

And you're going to have a lot less guilt, that kind of thing. Absolutely. There's some areas that you want to stay away from. We really advise couples to stay away from anything that makes you more obsessive. Sometimes people ask, what do I share? What kind of questions? What do I share? Do I share that I slept with this person? Do I share that on our anniversary, we did this or I did that with the affair partner?

Morgan:

How much information is too much information?

Brad:

Yeah. Well, and here's the thing, there's kind of a protocol for this. There is some things that I would strongly encourage people not to talk about that, but most of the time, whatever the injured spouse feels like they need to know. I'm okay with that. Like I said earlier, only about 7% of injured spouses have no desire for any sort of details. Two thirds want to know great details. And so the three areas are graphic, sexual details, love letters, and anything that makes the injured spouse more obsessive about the past.

Morgan:

And you want to avoid those, right? Yeah,

Brad:

You want to avoid those. And generally the obsessiveness comes from graphic sexual details and love letters

And graphic sexual details are really hard for men, especially because they'll picture their wife with another man, very visual doing certain things, and men are very visual. So it's much to overcome. And I found that people get stuck in thinking about this. Men will get stuck or even women get stuck in thinking about the sexual part because they don't have all the information. And what happens is their mind is just kind of going through all the information they know. And part of that is the sexual details because they're trying to understand what happened, why it happened. And so they're just going through all this information. And part of that's the sexual details. One of the best ways I know how for people to overcome the sexual details is really to understand the whole affair and to get all their questions answered. Because once they have everything answered, they have stopped obsessing of the unknown of the unknown, and it's just obsessing period. And that causes them to get stuck on the graphic sexual details. The other area you do not want to know is love letters. That generally is harder for women. And let me say this though, it's not just hard on women, it's hard on men too, but it's very hard to see that your spouse may be bashing you

In a letter, but praising somebody else, talking positively, someone else, giving them a nickname that you do not have, they may have a different type of relationship than you've had with your spouse. I had a guy that came in a little over a year ago. His wife had an affair last summer, and when they came in, they came in about April or March, and this was really interesting. No healing had virtually taken place because hers was an online affair with somebody in a different state, but he had all this information online and every day he looked over it, just poured over it, read everything, revisited everything. So the guy was very depressed, very obsessed, still not a lot of things made sense. And so there was no healing that took place.

Morgan:

You kind of kept him right there.

Brad:

Yeah, it kept him in the beginning of the process and nine months afterwards, he should have been in a very comfortable place, not perfect, but in a place where I definitely feel like I'm moving forward. I have hope. I know we're working through this. I've worked through a lot of the major part of this. We should have already been there. It's been nine months at ground

Morgan:

Zero,

Brad:

Nine months at a really, really bad place. You want to avoid graphic sexual details. You want to avoid love letters, text messages, emails. Unfortunately, that's how so many people find out about an affair nowadays. It's an online affair where they got kind of these text messages and smartphones and things in Facebook. That's how people find out. But you really want to try to avoid kind of bearing yourself in that and revisiting it because it's only going to keep you held hostage.

Morgan:

So one thing we have here to avoid the scenario, we recommend writing these questions down, sleep on them. Ask yourself, is this information, is it really necessary for my healing? Sometimes just writing it down will help you kind of get through those feelings, but sleep on it.

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb. Just give yourself some time when you get the question you want it answered right away, but give yourself some time

Morgan:

Because

Brad:

With these types of questions, they tend to be re-traumatizing. They tend to open the wound back up. They tend to pour salt on that wound and it doesn't heal. So give yourself some time. You don't need to really jump ahead into this. And I would, to be honest with you, I really encourage you not to ask questions about sexual, obviously, did you make love? Did you have sex? That kind of thing.

Morgan:

Will I need to worry

Brad:

About STDs? STDs, were they on birth control? That's fine. But things like sexual positions, lingerie you really need to avoid. And there's some more graphic questions that you could ask that I don't want to say, but you really want to avoid that because it just keeps you stuck.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

It retraumatizes you.

Morgan:

So Brad, we are going to out of time here very soon, but would you like to talk about the open limitations?

Brad:

Let say, let me just summarize the last two steps here. When discussing an affair, it's important to do what we call open limitations. Where as time goes on, you're probably talking about the affair for hours on length, especially in the early weeks. You're talking about the affair constantly. But as time goes on, that idea of open limitations is at any moment the injured spouse is able to bring up a question and it's discussed for no longer than 15 to 30 minutes. And part of that is because the longer you go on, the more that's shared, the more that's told can cause people to get angry

Morgan:

Escalation.

Brad:

And if it's not done, you get into that negative cycle of blame, withdraw, one person's blame and the other one's withdrawing. But if you do that, that tends to be the best way to do this. It's just discuss it for no more than 15 to 30 minutes and it helps people really begin to recover and you're just kind of doing it throughout your

Morgan:

Day. And if you do the journal method, like what we had talked about in the last show, if you write it down and you really think through, okay, what do I need to know? What questions do I have? You're going to make those conversations within 15 to 30 minutes. You're going to make them more productive. You're going to get somewhere instead of falling into just a big argument.

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. Just limit yourself to 15 to 30 minutes per question or part time that you discuss this, and you can talk about it really at any time. Obviously not when the kids are around, but really at any time. So the injured spouse has the freedom to ask this really at any time they feel the need to, but you're not discussing it at length. You're able to kind of resume your normal life together

Morgan:

And 30 minutes wraps up and then you're able to go and cool down and really

Brad:

Breathe. And then kind of the next thing is because the betrayer many times feels like this is hopeless, I can't help this person heal. I can't be forgiven. And I notice people when they've dealt with the affair for a long periods of time, like a year or more, they start feeling like, gosh, nothing I can do is going to have any effect on this person. And so this is where that care and compassion comes in. Is what you are doing really helps me,

Us talking about this? You don't understand how much this helps me. I appreciate this. I notice what you're doing. I notice what you're contributing, praising them for what you're getting because it's only going to help them give you more. And so that's important, and that is many times the injured spouse feels like I don't owe them anything, have a huge wall up. That is true and that needs to be worked on, but I can understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying that's necessarily true that you shouldn't try to help them, but if you give them appreciation, give them positive feedback. I notice what you're doing. These small things matter. These things that you're doing matter, they're going to have more motivation and sometimes they're just completely demoralized

Morgan:

And ultimately you will get the healing that you need as the betrayed spouse. So it's a win-win situation. One person feels like they can be open and honest and sharing, and then you also get the healing that you need, the answers that you need.

Brad:

Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and to the resources we discussed at healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.

Ep 23: How Can We Forgive and Be Forgiven? Should I stay with someone who hurts me?

Morgan:

We've heard that a lot of people say before something like this happens to them, if ever they cheat on me or I'm going to be gone, there's no way that we could work on this. But the truth is, when it actually happens to you,

Brad:

You don't know.

Morgan:

You just don't know. And most of the time people want to work on it. Most of the time, people want to heal and try to rebuild the relationship. You are listening to Healing Broken Trust podcast with Brad and Morgan Robinson, where we talk about healing from affairs, infidelity, trust, and cheating in your relationship from the perspective of a professional marriage therapist and a fair recovery expert. If you want to save your relationship after infidelity, this podcast is for you. In episode 23, we're talking about how we can forgive and be forgiven. So many people want to jump straight to forgiveness without really healing from the betrayal or earning trust, and they make it so much harder to fully experience forgiveness. So we get into such a hurry to stop feeling the pain and get back to normal that we fall into the temptation of saying, do you forgive me? Yes. Great. Now stop talking about the affair. But as you may have discovered as you listen to this podcast, that that just won't work. So make sure you go and download the free resources@healingbrokentrust.com slash episode 23, and let's talk about how to forgive and be forgiven.

Today we're talking about forgiveness, right, Brad? And we're going to talk about what is forgiveness and kind of some of the myths associated with forgiving your spouse after infidelity.

Brad:

Yes,

Morgan:

Brad, you want to start talking about what is forgiveness?

Brad:

Yeah, forgiveness is something that many people claim to believe in, but when it actually comes time to forgiving, it's very hard to do. Sometimes couples struggle with forgiveness. They have a struggle feeling like they're forgiven, especially if they've cheated. I've had couples frequently after they've had an affair, come to counseling and feel hopeless that they can't repair the marriage, but they don't realize that some of the forgiveness has already taken place. Just the fact that you're in marriage counseling, your spouse is willing to work on you. Maybe it's not 100% complete forgiveness, but it shows you that they're willing to forgive

Morgan:

And work

Brad:

On the relationship and work on the relationship. And there is some forgiveness that's taken place just to get that far.

Morgan:

Yeah, we've heard that a lot of people say before something like this happens to them, if ever they cheat on me or I'm going to be gone, there's no way that we could work on this. But the truth is, when it actually happens to you,

Brad:

You don't know.

Morgan:

You just don't know. And most of the time, people want to work on it, and most of the time people want to heal and try to rebuild the relationship. Wouldn't you agree?

Brad:

Yeah, they do. And you don't know what you're going to do until it happens to you. One of the things that's important to know about forgiveness, it's not about forgetting or exposing yourself to be hurt again, it's about being able to move forward without living in the past. Truly about healing from the pain is what Forgiveness is an important thing for spouses who've been betrayed by an affair. Forgiving your partner for cheating on you doesn't necessarily mean you have to restore the relationship. It doesn't mean reconciliation. It just means you can let go of your need to punish your spouse for what they did to you. But one of the misconceptions about forgiveness is the false belief that forgiveness is the same as saying everything is okay between us. It's no big deal. I forgive you. Forgiveness is not giving permission for the affair to continue. Injured spouses cannot truly forgive until they're safe from being hurt. Further, forgiveness is something that betrayed spouses do based on their own inner strength, rather than the betrayers

Morgan:

Doing what they've done.

Brad:

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Rather than the betrayer actions or remorse, it's obviously very hard to forgive when you've repeatedly betrayed and cheated on. And we're going to get into different types of forgiveness. Forgiveness that we're talking about here is really about letting go of the pain and letting go of them hurting you further. But there's another type of forgiveness if you are going to be able to reconcile and try to make things work. It's forgiveness that where you really let that person in. And we're going to talk about that later as well.

Morgan:

So there's two types of forgiveness. One, when that spouse is not around, maybe they left you for another person. And then one part of a different type of forgiveness is when you want to reconcile the relationship.

Brad:

And here's the key difference. One is about letting go of resentment and hurt. You can do that whether you're with them or if you're not with them. And then the second type of forgiveness is it's more than just letting go of the resentment and hurt and the need to punish them. It's about letting yourself be vulnerable and depend on that person. Again, you have to trust them and to trust them, and that's a different type of forgiveness that we're going to discuss as well. How to attain.

Morgan:

So do we want to talk about the myths of

Brad:

Forgiveness

Morgan:

Now? Yeah.

Brad:

Sometimes people falsely believe forgiving means I'm weak. I think kind of like my response to that is really, I think it's actually a sign of strength.

Morgan:

Yeah, definitely.

Brad:

You can let go of the pain of someone betraying you and hurting you, and you think that's weakness. It's a sign of strength and it's a sign of maturity as well.

Morgan:

And then that kind of plays with the idea that people think, well, if I forgive, that means I'm forgetting and I'm condoning. But that's not the case at all. If real forgiveness, the right forgiveness, it's standing up for yourself, but it's also standing up for your relationship. And then it's also, it's fully healing and not necessarily letting that happen again. So the second one, if I don't make her pay for the affair, it will happen again. Speaking of happening again.

Brad:

And that's a common myth that people have. If I don't make my spouse pay for it, they're going to do it again.

Morgan:

So I have to punish them. But actually making the betrayer suffer causes doubt that the relationship can actually recover. Injured spouses need their partners to help them heal and to be there for them. But if they make their betrayal's life difficult, it will be much harder for them to heal and be hopeful that the relationship can recover. So it would be quite discouraging if you're constantly needing to make them pay for it.

Brad:

Oh yeah. Because here's the thing, the one who was involved, sometimes people who have affairs many times are burned out. They have issues with the marriage, why they do this, and understandably, you're upset and you're hurting, you're hurting a great deal. But just to punish them consistently and constantly for it. Lemme say this, there's a difference between questions, asking things and needing them, needing reassurance, and you're needing questions answered and you want to talk about it. I don't look at that as punishing them, but making them crawl on glass, making them do all the sacrifice, all this stuff because they betrayed you. And that may work in the short term, but long term marriage wise, that is a recipe for disaster. And that creates a very hopeless feeling in the person who had the affair because they don't feel like you guys can ever move forward and move past it

Morgan:

And sacrificing. I mean, there's going to be some of that with making sure that they come home early. Oh, sure. Yeah, definitely.

Brad:

To rebuild trust, be transparent and honest. Yeah, that's standard stuff. But I'm talking about this punishing type thing. You're their parent again, and it's kind of this extreme,

Morgan:

You can't have your car. I'm not going to let you have your car.

Brad:

Well, they lose all rights. That just doesn't work, not long term. And understandably, they may go along with that short term, but you can't build a marriage on that. It's not something that you can build a marriage with. There's not equality, there's not respect. It makes it very, very difficult.

Morgan:

Gotcha. You want to do the third one?

Brad:

Yeah. So the third myth is my anger lets him know him or her know they can't hurt me without consequences. And that's important. People think, you know what? I'm getting angry. There's going to be consequences to this. It's actually easier for people to identify the hurts and heal them when they let go of the hurt and hatred. You can actually begin to heal when you let go of that hurt and hatred that creates that anger. And we've often talked about a key component of a fair recovery is having the betrayer there in a nurturing, supportive role. And with unforgiveness and this kind of under unforgiveness where it's resentment and hatred and anger, it really keeps that person distant. We talked about negative cycles. This is a great way to get stuck in a negative cycle.

Morgan:

Anger, yelling, hatred that way, and then the betrayer becomes distant at some point, and then it's this negative round and around cycle. Interesting. And that anger really hurts the person who's been betrayed too, because they're holding onto that. It's kind of eaten them.

Brad:

It does. Yeah, definitely

Morgan:

Does. Okay, so then the next one, forgiving her or him will make them think she didn't hurt me. Injured spouses can articulate the impact of the injury and still be able to get the feelings of hatred out of their system. So that's a myth that forgiving them will make them think they didn't hurt you.

Brad:

And what we're talking about here is you think you're saying, I'm not hurting if you say I forgive you.

Morgan:

And that's not the truth.

Brad:

That's not the truth at all. Right? And there's kind of a pattern here in what we're talking about. There's this theme of punishment. I'm holding this over your head. I'm not letting you go on from this. I'm stuck in the past and I'm going to make you be stuck in the past with me. And that's kind of the theme here. And when that happens, people commonly believe, if I forgive this,

Morgan:

You're

Brad:

Going to forget about my pain and you're going to go on and you're not going to be here with me. And that's false.

Morgan:

And I think a lot of times that would be from kind the misnomer, the incorrect thoughts about forgiveness that, oh, I have to be okay. I have to just not cry because forgiveness means I show no sadness or remorse about what happened because I'm not bothered. I'm forgiven, I forgive them. But that's not it at all. Forgiveness still runs its course. I mean, the pain still runs its course, and you still have to heal from that. So forgiveness doesn't mean that you just, well, I'm not going to cry and everything's fine.

Brad:

Well, forgiveness is a process,

Morgan:

Right?

Brad:

It's not an overnight thing, it's a process. Commonly people look at forgiveness as a light switch. I forgive you. And all of a sudden the resentment's gone. In fact, you're going to have to forgive a lot. You're going to have to forgive every day. Every day. You're going to have to choose to forgive every day, and you're going to have to choose to forgive individual aspects of the affair. You're going to have to forgive about the deception. You're going to have to forgive about any physical involvement, emotional involvement. You're going to have to forgive these specific incidences that happened

Morgan:

Kind of one thing at a time, it seems like. So we talk about forgiveness. Well, we're talking about the myths of surrounding forgiveness.

Brad:

Yeah. Commonly held beliefs that are actually false after an affair. The next one, Morgan number five is forgiveness. Commonly people falsely believe forgiveness means I approve of my spouse's immoral behavior. So people look at forgiveness, meaning approval. But this is important to understand that when spouses are cheated on, they do have a right to condemn that behavior. And at the same time, they need to release ill will towards the involved spouse,

Morgan:

Which takes time.

Brad:

And here's the thing, ill releasing, ill will does not mean automatically letting them back in your life to be hurt again. It just means you're letting yourself go. You're letting yourself off the hook to punish them. And also for spouses who've been betrayed, you can still believe in right and wrong and stand up for yourself without giving in or lowering your guard. That's not what forgiveness means. Forgiveness says, I'm letting go of the resentment, but I'm still keeping my boundaries. I'm not going to let you hurt me again.

Morgan:

And I think it's interesting you say you let yourself off the hook. You don't have to be the judge, jury, and executioner.

Brad:

As we get into this more, we're going to discuss actually how it affects a person physically interesting with unforgiveness, how it affects a person's heart, their immune system. It's really a cancer of the mind, you could say a cancer of the soul. And so these kinds of beliefs, they're very common. They're very popular once people have been betrayed. But here's the kicker,

They actually hold a couple up from being able to recover because like we've talked about before with negative cycles, unforgiveness, let me be careful on how I explain this, because there's different types of unforgiveness. There's the unforgiveness. Like I said earlier, I'm letting go of my resentment and hurt. We have to have that. You need to do that. I'm letting go of my own resentment and hurt and my need to punish you. Again, that's a process that you need to be working towards. And if you're listening to this, and it's been probably in the first two months of discovery, it may be hard to do that. Definitely the closer you are to when you discover it or when you find more deception from your spouse, it'll be very hard to forgive. You need to let go of that resentment, that bitterness, you're really doing it for yourself. And here's the other thing though, Morgan forgiveness, that's not letting that person back in. That's a different type of forgiveness.

Morgan:

The other type of forgiveness,

Brad:

You're talking about being vulnerable,

Morgan:

Being vulnerable,

Brad:

Letting your walls down, letting your guard down with them. We're not saying everybody has to do that. You do want to have that if you're going to have a strong marriage. But I would say regardless of what's happened, you do want to find a place of forgiveness. And it's because you're doing it for yourself. And that'll become more clear as we talk about this.

Morgan:

Gotcha. And the next one, talking about number six, this is very common. People think about this when they think of forgiveness, but one myth, forgiving means forgetting. And many people who experience an affair commonly believe the myth that they have to forget the affair in order to forgive what happened. But forgiveness actually helps them release negative feelings about the affair. Remembering the affair helps them take precautions in the future.

Brad:

That's important.

Morgan:

Yeah,

Brad:

Because you cannot forget something as painful as an affair. You're just not going to, and that's foolish to even think or suggest that you could forget about it,

Morgan:

But it just won't be in your mind all the time pressing for your attention.

Brad:

But what you do need to do is forgive for yourself. Let go of that resentment. It will help you emotionally. It'll help you move on with your life. It'll help you release baggage. It'll help you get out of the negative cycle if you do choose to recover from the affair with your spouse or your partner who had the affair. But one of the things that people commonly think is it should never be brought up again. I've been betrayed. Why can't I quit thinking about this? Why can't I quit talking about it? And that's trauma. Those are trauma symptoms. You obsess about it. You have nightmares about it. You think about it. Your stomach is full of anxiety,

Morgan:

Constantly ask the same questions over and over. And I've heard some people say, well, I can't seem to get over this. I can't seem to stop thinking about it and talking about it and asking questions about it. And my spouse thinks I'm crazy, and they're telling them they're crazy. And

Brad:

That's trauma we've talked about. That's trauma. There's trauma symptoms there,

Morgan:

But they're not crazy. The point

Brad:

Is not, no, they're not crazy. It's like somebody, it's like this Morgan. It's like if we went, me and you went on a safari in Africa, and the guy driving the Jeep on the safari was the only local, the only one that knew how to deal with wild animals. And we get attacked, and he's the only one with a phone that actually gets reception on the safari. So he's dead and the phone's gone. And it's me and you out in the jungle trying to survive. We're going to have symptoms of trauma. We're going to have anxiety. We're going to have difficulty sleeping. We're going to be obsessed about survival. We're going to be hypervigilant looking for any sign of danger and trouble. What's going on When someone's betrayed, they're not crazy. They've just been attacked and their system and their nervous system is on high alert and they're saying, okay, I got to figure out how to survive here. It's just like if we were in the jungle and we got

Morgan:

Attacked by a lion,

Brad:

By attacked by a lion, and we're trying to survive. It's the same symptoms. It's the same survival strategy that our body goes through. Interesting. And that's what happens when someone's betrayed. You're not nuts. You're not crazy. Your body's going through that and you keep asking the same questions because you want to know. That's the dangerous thing is the deception. I've only had one person tell me that the only thing that hurt more than the deception was actually the rejection. And everybody else has said it's the deception that hurts more. That's why the questions are so important is I've got to figure this out. I got to know why this happened. I got to protect myself from this again.

Brad:

And

Brad:

That's like us being in a jungle and trying to survive out in the wilderness when we know there's wild animals out there. It's the same physical thing. It's the same mental reaction. And that's called survival. That's called normal. That's called in a sense, even healthy to have that kind of response. That's your body's taken over and you're trying to protect yourself.

Morgan:

Yeah, definitely. Well, that's fantastic. That's a great way to put that picture in your mind to understand it better. And the next one,

Brad:

This myth says, this is what commonly people say is, if I forgive, I'll have to trust that person again. To a certain extent, that's true. But if I forgive, I'll have to trust that person again,

Morgan:

If you even decide to stay with your spouse.

Brad:

And here's the thing, trust is built over time, but it is really about the RA spouse believing he or she can rely on the betrayer to be there for support. Forgiveness is still something that can be accomplished even if a person is unable to rebuild trust. And that one, I would say part of that's true. I need to differentiate that you need to be able to trust them. If you can be vulnerable with them, if you can get the forgiveness where you can be vulnerable, you're going to have to be able to trust that person. You're going to have to find that you can depend on them to be vulnerable. But if you don't feel like you can trust them, you can't be vulnerable with them opening yourself up for attack. It's like, if I don't trust that lion, it's not going to eat me. I'm going to keep hiding in the safari out in the wilderness.

Morgan:

Well keep a distance.

Brad:

You don't have to be able to trust them to let go of the resentment and the hatred. That type of forgiveness, that's important too. So I want to draw a distinction there,

Morgan:

But to be close again, to have intimacy and to have a close relationship with your spouse, again, trust is going to

Brad:

Yeah, you to have that trust. Yeah. It'll be impossible to open yourself up

Morgan:

And be vulnerable

Brad:

And be vulnerable without trust.

Morgan:

Gotcha. And that does take years sometimes.

Brad:

Well, would you say it depends. It really depends. It depends on a lot of key factors, like the amount of deception, the length of the affair, what the quality of the marriage was before,

Morgan:

How open and honest, right upfront in the beginning.

Brad:

Yeah, how the negative cycles affecting them. Like you said, how open and honest the betrayer is immediately after the affair.

Morgan:

How good of a relationship they had before the affair possibly.

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a key one. That's a key one.

Morgan:

Okay, so the next one, number eight. The eighth myth. An affair is unforgivable. Okay. Something that needs to be understood about forgiveness is that it really, it's really about the internal state of the injured spouse. The injured spouse has power over the act and the involved spouse because he or she's able to say the affair is disgusting and horrible. Nevertheless, I forgive you, they're in control and not a victim of circumstances. So do you want to unpack that a little bit, Brett?

Brad:

Yeah. Here's the key thing. You as the injured spouse, you have power over the act of the affair because you're not a victim of circumstances.

Morgan:

You have more control and more power than you think. A lot of times you feel so powerless when this has happened to you.

Brad:

Well, you're not a victim, period. Obviously this is a horrible, horrible, disgusting thing. But you're more than that. And to think your life is

Morgan:

A summation of one event,

Brad:

Circumstances. I mean, you're just blown and tossed by the wind if that's all you think. It's a horrible place to live to let your circumstances dictate how you feel. And we all go through that from time to time, especially when big things like this happen. After some of the trauma starts wearing off, you're going to have to start picking yourself up and realizing at a certain point in time, I'm not going to put a timeframe on that. You're going to have to realize I'm more than my circumstances. I'm not going to be a victim of this. I'm in control over this. I'm the maker of my own destiny.

Morgan:

Something you said earlier too, forgiveness is for you just as much as it is for them, if not more.

Brad:

Yeah. It's more for you.

Morgan:

Yeah. It's for you to not let it eat you up inside.

Brad:

Yep. It's you being able to say, I'm moving on past this. Number nine is cheater is all bad and deserving of my resentment. That's very common. This person has no good qualities. Individuals who cheat on their spouse, they're human, they're weak. Many times they're in pain, and often they're not in their right mind. They feel guilty for what they've done. They feel deeply ashamed for what they've done. And here's the important thing with life. Life has a way of punishing people for their mistakes and their sins. Injured spouses. Let me ask you a serious question. Have you ever considered that you don't need to take any responsibility for setting them straight?

Morgan:

Life will do it for 'em. Yeah.

Brad:

Yeah. Life will do it.

Morgan:

Whether it's a venereal disease or just a unhappy,

Brad:

Yeah, because that need to punish life will take care of, we often create our own misfortunes. The 10th myth is getting even will help me get over the affair. That is bull crap. We talked about last time the revenge affair and how people get into affair because they've been betrayed and they're not healing well. That's the key moment of unforgiveness.

Morgan:

It's kind of like, you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt myself too.

Brad:

And that's what people do. They think they're hurting their spouse, but getting even does not replace what has been taken from you. Having your own affair doesn't help you get over the hurt and trauma that you've been experiencing.

And so that's really key. Just quickly talk about what is forgiveness, and basically we're talking about forgiveness in the context of recovering from an affair, recovering from betrayal. And so what we're talking about is really in that context. One of the truths about forgiveness that's not a myth is that forgiveness is really something that people do for themselves, forgiving you up from the anguish and burdens of the past so that the past doesn't intrude into the future. Forgiveness is a choice. It's something that is produced only with intentional effort, something that you have to choose to do. We're going to talk a little bit later about things that keep us from being able to forgive, but it's really a choice. And I do want to say this though, that for people who choose to try to work it out with the one who had the affair, the one who betrayed them, some forgiveness has taken place. We talked about how there's two different types of forgiveness that we're kind of talking about. And I want to differentiate that there's the type of forgiveness that we're mainly talking about right now. That's the forgiveness, that's letting go of the need to punish, letting go of the need for revenge

Brad:

When

Brad:

You've been betrayed and that holds onto that resentment. And you can forgive and let go of that need to punish and the need for revenge. Letting go of that resentment, that bitterness.

Morgan:

Yeah.

Brad:

Because that's

Morgan:

Going to really help

Brad:

You

Morgan:

To heal.

Brad:

Yeah. That's going to help you heal. And you're doing that for yourself.

And then there's a different type of forgiveness. And just for the lack of, I guess the English language, there's another type of forgiveness that we're going to get into later, which is really about letting that person back into your life. And so as we talk about this, I want to be real clear to be able to differentiate those two different types of forgiveness. And what we're talking about in the show right now is the forgiveness where you're letting go of the resentment, the bitterness, the need to punish, the need to punish the need for revenge

Morgan:

So it doesn't eat you alive on the

Brad:

Inside. Yeah. It doesn't eat you alive. And if you have this kind of forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean that you're letting that person back in either or that you can't. And some of that's based on them being that person that you're forgiving being safe. They have to be safe for you to be able to let them back in your life. You can't just be a doormat and say, accept you

Brad:

Blindly.

Brad:

And there's some confusion about that. While I'm on this, I want to talk about another myth about forgiveness that we didn't mention last week is that forgiveness is in a process, not

Morgan:

Just an event.

Brad:

Yeah. It's a process. It's not an event. This process stops and has starts to it in large part. It's based on how much discomfort or pain you're in. When you're in a lot of pain, it's really hard to let go of anger, resentment, and bitterness. And it's also hard, of course, to let that person in.

Morgan:

So it's not like a one time event where you're just like, no, it's not like, oh, today you hurt me. Tomorrow I have forgiven and I'm now okay. And

Brad:

It's not like that. Yeah, it's not like that at all. And here's something I want to say about this too, is when people have been betrayed, like this amount of pain is so hurtful. It's pretty intense. It's very intense. Sometimes people clinging to their resentment and their bitterness and these hard feelings as a way to really protect themselves. They get angry as a way to have boundaries and enforce those boundaries. And forgiving is a process that's going to have to happen multiple times. You're going to have to let go of that resentment multiple times. I had a couple in my office recently, and the husband was saying, well, you forgave me. Why are you talking about the affair? Why are you bringing it up? You already forgave me. What he doesn't understand is it's going to come up a lot. This is such a hurtful thing. There still has to be healing. And that doesn't mean there isn't

Morgan:

Forgiveness

Brad:

And he doesn't understand forgiveness and he doesn't understand the process either of healing from this kind of thing. And one of the things I do want to say about this quickly is with forgiveness, I want to be real clear on this, is when you do forgive, there has to be safety there. There has to be security there

Morgan:

Knowing that the affair won't happen again

Brad:

Or it's hard to let go of that anger and that bitterness. And it's really hard to do, honestly. It's really hard to forgive early on immediately after discovery. It's hard for most people. Some people will say, I forgive you and let it go. Other people are going to have a much harder time because they're in so much pain themselves. And to kind of get to that ultimate forgiveness where you're really able to let the anger and the resentment and the bitterness go, you're looking at being out of the negative cycle, getting out of that when you talk about the affair, some healing has to take place for you to really let go of all of that.

Morgan:

And sometimes that is talking about it, right? Just depends on the person and kind of the situation

Brad:

Depends on a lot of different factors. But forgiveness is a choice and it's made easier to accomplish when you have the person who has betrayed you, who's there, and they're remorseful and they're trying to help you heal. And one of the things too, Morgan, I just want to mention is forgiveness is a process where some people will go to church or leave counseling and they'll say, I'm going to forgive. And they make a decision to really forgive and they feel better about it. But then something happens and they get reminded of again, or they feel like their spouse isn't being honest again, and the pain comes back and resentment comes back, the anger comes back and they have to work through it again.

Morgan:

And sometimes they feel discouraged about that, but don't feel discouraged if that's a process, because yes, it's a process.

Brad:

It's a process that has mountains and valleys to it, kind of waves that come in and out,

Morgan:

Good days and bad

Brad:

Days. And that's how the process is. And just know this, that if you're working through this with your spouse, chances are that they have probably started that process of forgiving you, just the fact that they're listening to this program with you or going to counseling with you

Morgan:

If you're talking to the betrayer, right?

Brad:

Yeah. Right. So just wanted to say all that. Part of this is when the betrayed spouse feels safe and secure and that the affair won't happen again, they begin to let go of the need to punish or seek revenge. They begin to let go of that bitterness on the one who had the affair. They let go of that need to punish because the bleeding has stopped and the healing can begin, and they don't want to have to punish. And some of that is stuff that they do to protect themselves. That's why it's hard to be vulnerable with that person when you feel like you have to protect yourself. And so for a couple to heal, the injured spouse needs to see that remorse from the spouse who had the affair. And that's hard to give when you're caught in a negative cycle, when you're fighting and arguing, they really need to see your tears, your shame, your guilt, your disappointment in yourself, even if you don't like yourself, you hate yourself for what you did. Those are things that people tend to hide and shy away from because there's so much shame there. But they really need to see your remorse. They need to see that you're in pain so they can begin to heal.

Morgan:

Can you briefly give just what a typical negative cycle would look like for a couple? Yeah.

Brad:

I'll remind couples betrayed. Yeah. Typically the one who has been betrayed their primary emotion when they've been betrayed. Obviously there's sadness there. There's feelings of inadequacy, but I would say it's probably fear. It's almost how do I know this won't happen again? And so everything they're doing is meant to protect themselves from getting hurt further. And that could be being obsessive questioning, lack of sleep. It's all this, it's almost like, and I've talked about this before with people in our office, couples in our office. It's like if you had gone on a safari and it's just you as a couple and then the driver, and he's the only one that has a phone that gets reception, he's got a satellite phone and he gets attacked by a wild animal, a wild lion.

And it's just you and your spouse that are left to survive and you don't know where you're at and you're miles away from any civilization or help, you're going to have symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. And that's what the person who's been betrayed has. They have the obsessiveness. They're not sleeping very well, they're running through things in their head. They're very hypervigilant, they're very alert. They use anger as a way to make themselves feel more powerful, to take control of a desperate hard situation. And those are the same things like being stranded in the wild, fearing death that happens when someone's been betrayed. They're fearing the pain of betrayal again. So they're doing those things to protect themselves.

Morgan:

So while that portrayed partner is hypervigilant, obsessive thoughts, obsessive questions that causes the betrayer to do what?

Brad:

Yeah. And see, part of that is it causes the betrayer to shut down. And they start to think, well, crud, I don't want to make this worse. I don't want to do things to make this harder on myself or harder on them. I just want us to be able to put this behind us. And so they start to do things that minimize where the betrayed spouse is coming from. And they're also really afraid and they're also very sad,

Brad:

But

Brad:

They're also very shameful. And so they want to forget about it. They don't want to discuss it anymore. And those are some things that really keep couples from being able to work through it is that shame that's there. The action tendency with shame is

Morgan:

Pull

Brad:

Away, pull away to withdraw, to hide

Morgan:

Maybe to get a little depressed about it, feel bad about themselves in the situation,

Brad:

Hopelessness. They feel hopeless. They want to get away from it. And part of that, what happens is, is they feel so horrible and they feel so bad that they begin to no longer talk about it. They no longer show any emotion about it. Sometimes they leave, sometimes they leave. If they're very, very, very shameful, feel very guilty, they'll hide. They'll leave.

Morgan:

They might say, you don't deserve what I've done to you. Things like that.

Brad:

Yeah, they do. Their shame is really, yeah, they feel very hopeless as well.

Morgan:

But

Brad:

What happens is with this negative cycle is it makes it hard. You get stuck in gridlock. You almost get into what's been called absorbing emotional states. That's rigid patterns of interaction. It's almost like it's this very robotic, almost predictable interactions. Nothing can change. It can influence until you begin to talk about some of these deeper emotions that are there.

Morgan:

So when we talk about this negative cycle that people get into,

Our goal is to change this dance. It's a dance that whenever you go into when you've been betrayed or you are the betrayer, it's just this pattern, this cycle that happens. And so when he says negative cycles, he's talking about beginning to, for the betrayer to start to engage and be open and honest and forthright and to know what to expect. They're going to probably have obsessive questions and thoughts. And so to have an idea that that's what's going to happen, possibly, that they can feel more confident and open to be able to discuss the affair. And so then that betrayed partner who has just these obsessive thoughts and hypervigilance, maybe they're able to put down their weapons for a little bit to break out of this negative cycle. And so as people are educated about what's happening and what's going on, it's going to make this process of forgiveness a lot easier. Is that basically what we're saying? Yeah,

Brad:

I'm saying that, but one of the key components, and this is unfortunately for my research of reading into affairs, in my opinion, there's not really a lot that's done to address negative cycles. You can read it a million books, but nobody really talks about the negative cycle that couples get into that led to this. And that happens when people are discussing it. You'll get information about limit your time talking about it, and that's helpful. They will give you information on how to talk about it, but they don't really ever discuss the negative cycle that happens around it. Because if you don't deal with that negative cycle that happens around discussing an affair, you're not going to make very much progress in healing. And so some of these things that we're talking about, we're talking about the need to be honest, the need to be transparent, the need to be loving and supportive, and to have goodwill and to do these things. And we're talking about right now forgiveness. That's hard when you get caught in that negative cycle

Morgan:

And the negative patterns of communicating about it and viewing it and seeing it

Brad:

And

Morgan:

Discussing it, feeling about

Brad:

It. And so lemme just say this, getting out of that negative cycle there is obviously seeing a counselor who knows what they're doing, who knows what they're doing that works with affairs, that's a good start, but also a counselor that works within the framework of emotionally focused couples therapy. Where we live, we practice here in Tulsa. I'll say this, I don't know how many people actually use that theory. There's only three people in Tulsa that I'm aware of that have advanced training and they all work in our office. And so what we're doing is it's really revolutionary. We're using the best methods. We group practice that just focuses on this, but not just we focus on marriage counseling. We're using the best method. That's actually empirically validated by research. There's other leading methods within marriage counseling that I'll say some names, Imago Gottman. Gottman has research behind his, but it hasn't been proven to work

Morgan:

And actually helped people in

Brad:

Conflict. He hasn't released any studies on it. And that's a shame because he's a marital researcher

And he's had his theory around for at least 10 years, maybe 15 years or longer, emotionally focused couples therapy has dozens of studies done on it. And one of the things about it is couples move from distress to closeness in about five month period, 75% of them and within five months have moved from distress, horrible place to a place of intimacy. But anyway, you got to deal with the negative cycle. If you have a therapist that works with emotionally focused couples therapy, if you're listening to this and Tulsa, if you're listening to this somewhere else, find somebody that uses emotionally focused couples therapy, they're going to help you deal with that negative cycle you get into,

Morgan:

You're

Brad:

Going to get better care, that you're going to get better care. I want to wrap up talking about what is forgiveness first? Go ahead. I want to finish that. We kind of got sidetracked on the negative cycle, which was important because it's important. Not everybody kind of was able to listen to our show on a regular basis. So sometimes we don't always come back to other topics. But for a couple to heal, I want to repeat this. The injured spouse needs to see the remorse of the spouse who had the affair and negative cycles keep couples from being able to have that kind of emotion and remorse. I would say in my work, maybe one out of 20 actually kind of do everything the way I would like 'em to do it. So they really need guidance. They really need help. When the spouse who's been betrayed, the injured spouse sees that their partner is living with the guilt and shame for what they did, they're living in that pain. Only then can forgiveness begin to take place.

Morgan:

And I really think it's because when that person who's betrayed their spouse feels that pain and emotion, then it's almost like the person who's been betrayed is able to relate with them better because they know each other's pain and the hurt that's behind

Brad:

It. Well, it's of like they're safe again. You get me. It's like you see this lion get me. You figure out the lion's a vegetarian and you're out in the wilderness again. And you realize, okay, he's a vegetarian. He doesn't like human. Then you feel safe walking around the lion. He likes plants. You might not come up and pet the lion or anything like that, but you're not going to be scared of the lion. And so when you see that pain, that remorse, and here's the key, you need to see that they're hurting

Morgan:

Because

Brad:

They hurt me.

Morgan:

They're

Brad:

Not hurting because the affair is over.

Morgan:

That's right.

Brad:

Big. That's a big point. And that's really important. They're hurting because they hurt me. Not that the affair, they lost the affair partner or because they're disgrace. They got caught. Yeah, they got caught or they're in disgrace or that kind of thing.

Brad:

You

Brad:

Need to see that they're hurting because they hurt me and they care about me. And once that happens, and once it's not just in a one-time event, it can be, but usually it needs to take place more often because there needs to be a lot of reassurance. So the one who's been hurt needs to see that.

Brad:

And

Brad:

This is also an important factor, why the negative cycle needs to be looked at and examined many times before couples kind of delve into the affair recovery process. And I say that because you get caught in that negative cycle. You can't do this,

Brad:

You

Brad:

Can't heal, you can't do this. And many times, honestly, there's factors where people have affairs, there's things that go into that. And we've talked about how

Morgan:

Kind of the reasons behind it,

Brad:

How affairs start. And in the beginning, the person who had the affair may have a hard time showing their pain. We spent a couple of weeks on talking about the 10 different types of affairs, and we talked about how sometimes they overlap. And one of the key themes that overlaps in these affairs is typically the person who has an affair. They're very burned out. They're very vulnerable

Morgan:

To

Brad:

An affair.

Morgan:

The boundaries are lower,

Brad:

Their boundaries are lower. They kind of feel hurt themselves. The negative cycles really beat them up.

Morgan:

They

Brad:

Feel hurt themselves, they feel ignored. They're feeling their own resentment. They're feeling alone. They feel kind of numb,

Morgan:

Disconnected from their spouse, disconnected

Brad:

From their spouse. And what happens is, is they start to care less about the marriage. And for many people, it's a wake up call, oh my gosh, I really do matter. They really do love me. I see how much they're hurting. And so you may not get this instantaneous, oh, I'm begging for mercy kind of thing. But eventually, once you kind of work through things, they're going to be able to get to that place and show that vulnerability. It's there many times it's there, but you may need that in the beginning. And with the negative cycle keeps 'em from being able to do that. That's why you need

Morgan:

Help. Would you like me to go ahead and do benefits of forgiveness?

Brad:

Yeah, go ahead, Morgan.

Morgan:

So letting go of resentment, hatred, bitterness, and desires for revenge is a way to come to peace with the past. So that's a lot of what we're talking about here, just letting it go of those things that kind of eat you up inside. The first step in the process of forgiveness is realizing that no offense against you is worth destroying your peace of mind. When individuals forgive, they take responsibility for their happiness. That no longer depends on the betrayer to make them happy so they don't depend on outside forces to make them happy. And you really can have that peace of mind. You really can come to that place where you're stronger. And so that's what we're talking about. Those are the main benefits of forgiveness. You want to add anything to that?

Brad:

Yeah. I would say many people might've heard of Viktor Frankl.

Morgan:

Oh yeah. He

Brad:

Wrote Man's Search for Meaning. He's a Holocaust survivor. And one of the things you said, Morgan, it's really important. That reminds me of what he said.

Brad:

You

Brad:

Said, I'm kind of paraphrasing what you said, but you said forgiveness is a process of realizing that no offense against you is worth destroying your peace of mind.

Brad:

Yeah,

Brad:

Absolutely. And that's kind of what Viktor Frankl's book Man Search for Meaning was about. Basically, no one can steal your attitude but yourself. No one can steal your happiness, but yourself.

Morgan:

He was a Holocaust survivor, and he chose not to have bitterness towards what happened to him.

Brad:

He chose to keep his attitude. That was the last thing someone can take from you is your own attitude, your internal sense of happiness. And so he was able to control that. Morgan, I want to move on to false forgiveness.

Brad:

Okay,

Morgan:

Good.

Brad:

And this is important. Let me just explain what I mean by false forgiveness. False forgiveness. This is something that occurs when both partners want to move on and they avoid having a confrontation about the affair. They just kind of rather

Morgan:

Just gloss over it

Brad:

And talks about it. Yeah, gloss over it.

Morgan:

They

Brad:

Have this, they avoid things kind of mentality. Pretend

Morgan:

It didn't happen,

Brad:

Just

Morgan:

Pretending,

Brad:

Just tell me it's not going to happen. We'll sweep it under the rug together. And so there's a false forgiveness. The affair happened. And so rushing forward for that is a way to stay in denial about what has really happened and the pain that it's caused.

Morgan:

So nothing gets resolved, really. The issues before don't get resolved. The issue of the pain doesn't get resolved and going forward, it's just

Brad:

Yeah, exactly. And so when this forgiveness is rushed or hurried because it's the right thing to do, unquote, that can lead to deep resentment later. When people do

Morgan:

That, they can't be close, right?

Brad:

No, they can't be close. Very hard to be into it. Yeah, it's very hard. And usually when that happens, that's because the betrayer is pushing for it. Just forgive me. Forgive me. And the one who has been betrayed, the injured spouse, from my experience, they typically go along with it because they're more fearful about losing that person. Just their presence and connection. They need them. And so they'll kind of whatever, I don't want to push 'em away. And they typically don't stay in counseling very long. So that can lead to deep resentment later because they're having to eat it stuff, it sweep it on the rug, and that's not something they typically want to do. And it is a sad fact that some people actually think about their spouse's reaction when debating an affair. Some people will have an affair and they'll think about how their spouse is going to react, and they're weighing the pros and cons as they do it. And if they feel like their spouse will quickly forgive them, they'll falsely believe, oh, well, it's a little bit of punishment for the thrill of a lifetime.

Morgan:

Oh my gosh,

Brad:

It's going to be a couple of weeks. I'm having my one night stand, or my fun or this or that. I know my spouse is a pushover.

Morgan:

Oh, that's horrible.

Brad:

And these are typically people who do that are pretty narcissistic, self-centered people, that kind of false. It can promote a pattern of cheating like that. It just reinforces someone who's really self-centered.

Morgan:

Narcissistic. We've been talking about forgiveness in the context of infidelity, right, Brad? And today we're going to talk about why can't you forgive me, right?

Brad:

Yeah. We're going to talk about common reasons why forgiveness has not happened yet. Last week's show, we talked about exactly what is forgiveness, and we talked about how people benefit from forgiving. There's health benefits we didn't really get into, but obviously peace of mind is one of those. And we talked about the dangers of false forgiveness, how you forgive somebody when you forgive. You don't always, if you have false forgiveness, you're kind of letting that person off the hook

Morgan:

Without healing from it,

Brad:

Without healing, and without them doing the necessary steps to help you heal.

Morgan:

We also talked about two different types of forgiveness.

Brad:

There's a type of forgiveness that is about letting that person back in because you find them safe and trustworthy. And that way when you feel like they're safe and trustworthy, you can lean on 'em and become emotionally vulnerable. And then there's another type of forgiveness. It's more about for yourself, it's more about letting yourself off the hook. You're letting go of that need to punish. You're letting go of your own resentment and bitterness. Hatred and hatred, typically, you can't let that person in unless you have forgiven them. And you're letting go of your own anger, your own bitterness and your own resentment. And typically, so if you don't have that, you haven't forgiven them and letting go of your need to punish and for revenge.

Morgan:

If

Brad:

You haven't let go of that,

Morgan:

It's very hard to move that other to that type. It's very hard

Brad:

To move to that other type of forgiveness. And then the week before that, we talked about myths of forgiveness. Sometimes forgiving means forgetting. Sometimes people falsely believe, well, if I forgive, that means I'm approving of their immoral behavior. It'll make 'em think they can do it again. They can do it again. They didn't have an impact on me. It means I'm weak if I

Morgan:

Forgive. And those of course are myths because it's really actually a show of strength to be able to move through this pain

Brad:

And forgiveness is a process too. So that's kind of what we talked about. And let's talk about why people get stuck in their inability to forgive. Basically something that people talk about is why can't you forgive me? There are difficulties that spouses who've been betrayed have when it comes to moving away from the bitterness towards an attitude of forgiveness and understanding forgiveness with a couple. There needs to be mutual empathy. Both spouses need to feel compassion from each other, and both must ask for forgiveness for the part they played in the marital problems they had in the past. Many times a spouse's ability to forgive is based on their partner's genuine efforts to make amends.

Brad:

And

Brad:

So you got to feel like that person is there as a healer. And again, this is when you get stuck in that negative cycle that we've talked about numerous times. It makes it really hard to let go. Yeah, definitely make amends. And so common reasons why forgiveness hasn't happened yet. And I would say the first is as long as the injured spouse believes that they are a victim, and life has been ruined, their life has been ruined by the affair, forgiveness will be impossible to give.

Morgan:

It's living in that self pity. But it seems just so hard to do. I mean, that's one of those things that, I mean, your life has been turned upside down.

Brad:

Yeah. Well, Morgan, that goes back to what you said last week, I think is so key. You said the first step in the process of forgiveness is realizing that no offense against you

Morgan:

Is

Brad:

Worth destroying your peace of mind.

Morgan:

It's true. And the Victor Frankl

Brad:

Quote, yeah, Victor Frankl, that's really important because a common reason people can't forgive is they think their life is over. They don't realize that they can rebuild. They haven't seen other people rebuild or they don't know enough people that have couples that have been able to move on.

Morgan:

And you have more strength than you think. Sometimes it feels just impossible. But the truth is that you have more power in the situation than you truly believe you do. The second common reason why forgiveness hasn't happened yet is if injured spouses believe that the affair is still happening, they just can't forgive because they don't feel safe and they can't let their guard down. I mean, gosh, if it's still happening, how can you move forward if they're still having an affair?

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, you can forgive. I forgive you. It's my duty to forgive you as a Christian. I need to forgive you as a person. So I forgive you when you're seeking God's help, but to let that person back in. I mean, there's really very, very little chance you can be vulnerable with someone when you feel like they're still hurting you. Your tendency when we're hurting is to start protecting ourself.

Morgan:

Yeah. It also feels like, well, maybe they aren't fully remorseful. I mean, they're still doing what they should not be doing if they really want to make this work. Does that make

Brad:

Sense? Yeah. Another common reason why people can't forgive or it hasn't happened yet, even though the affair could be over, the spouse who's been betrayed, they feel like there's been no precautions taken to protect the marriage against future infidelity. So they feel unable to let their walls down because they feel vulnerable to know their fear happening. There's a key theme here, why forgiveness hasn't taken place yet. And that theme is there isn't enough safety there. And so people need to feel safe for them to let go of that resentment, that bitterness, that revenge, the need to punish. Because when people haven't forgiven so way to protect themselves, that hurt is there as a way to take action against being hurt again.

Morgan:

So some of what this might be saying, precautions haven't been taken yet, or maybe they're still working at the job with the person that they cheated with.

Brad:

Yeah, that's a big one.

Morgan:

They're still on the computer late at night when they know that's what led to their problems before. So they're still stuck.

Brad:

They're still keeping secrets. They're still not being honest. They're still not being transparent. They still have a password that their spouse doesn't know on their phone or computer, things like that. And that makes it harder to let go and to be vulnerable and to let go of the hurt and the pain because that person isn't there for you. And honestly, you're going to stay stuck in a negative cycle longer.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

Because you're hurting and you don't feel like that person is there for you. Kind of like I mentioned earlier, for there to be forgiveness, you need to have mutual empathy. You need to feel compassion. You need to feel like that person is there making genuine efforts to make amends. And if you don't have that, you get stuck. That negative cycle keeps you stuck and being unable to have forgiveness.

Morgan:

Yeah, those feelings of empathy are backed up by action. The fourth one here, common reasons why forgiveness hasn't happened. If the affair is unquestionably over and the involved spouse has made genuine effort to heal his or her injured spouse, the injured spouse may be experiencing pain from the past that has been reawakened by the betrayal. Injured spouses. Ask yourself, if this is further evidence that the world is unfair, were you treated unfairly by family members or in a previous relationship? Is there a history of sexual abuse or deep wounds from a parent bullying in school? Possibly unshakable doubts about self-worth or other issues that may be contributing to your feelings. So is there something from the past, maybe this is brought up,

Brad:

And obviously affairs make someone very insecure and they can hit on other insecurities. But I do want to caution though, some people are hearing this, that their spouse, they're the ones who had the affair and they're jumping up and down saying, yes, yes. I'm glad they said that because my spouse has this. I want to be quick to just kind of jump in and say this. And you need to be really supportive and really careful about pointing out your spouse's insecurities because they may have that, but you need to be sensitive about it as well. They may be thinking, no, it's not the stuff from the past, it's what you did because you're not there. It could go either way. And you need to help with a trained therapist who's worked through this to help you sort through some of that stuff.

Morgan:

And we need to be very careful not to place blame on the injured spouse.

Brad:

Yeah. That can be retraumatizing itself.

Morgan:

Absolutely.

Brad:

Oh no, you're not hurting because I just kicked you in the shin. You're hurting because when you're a kid, you tripped and kicked your shin. You just got to be careful. And that's where the help of a therapist can come in.

Morgan:

Yeah. Qualified, trained,

Brad:

Experienced

Morgan:

Therapist.

Brad:

Yeah. Therapist with experience, not just anybody. Another thing is another common reason why people get stuck in being unable to heal from an affair. Honestly, it's because some people like the pain.

Brad:

It's

Brad:

Almost like they get addicted to it. They keep picking at an open wound and never let wound heal. Many people pass through this on their way towards healing, but some find themselves stuck here. Some people can just kind of get to healing forgiveness quickly, and it's genuine and they're healing from it. But some people get stuck here and I'm talking about they can be stuck here for a long time, like a year

Brad:

At

Brad:

Least a full year later, and they're still stuck in it. And that can be because their spouse, like we've said before, and there's a lot of factors that go into this. Let me be careful. I don't want to just say, if you're a year after this and you haven't made any progress and you're still hurting and obsessing about it

Morgan:

Doesn't necessarily mean you

Brad:

Like the pain. Mean you like the pain. It may mean your spouse isn't helping you. It may mean you're still stuck in a negative

Morgan:

Cycle. It may mean that there is trauma that needs to be handled

Brad:

From

Morgan:

The past,

Brad:

And that can be part of it. But another part of it is sometimes people like the pain. They like the attention, they like the pain. And that can be a form of manipulation. And lemme say this though, in my experience, the one that you just mentioned a moment ago, and the one I'm talking about now, that happens, but it's not super common.

Morgan:

This one here that we're talking

Brad:

About. Yeah, the one I'm talking about here and the one that you just mentioned about maybe issues from the past, those aren't super common,

But many people find themselves stuck here where they like the pain, they like the benefits of that pain. Other people give 'em attention, support. Their spouse has been over backwards, backwards. They like being able to have that control. I've only had probably one person that really has taken this to an extreme level. And so this isn't super common, but the bottom line with this kind of roadblock is that the injured spouse, they feel like if they do forgive, the spouse who had the affair will be off the hook and free from blame and they're going to get off too easily. But let me say this, it should be noted because if the one who's been betrayed isn't able to move forward from this deep emotional pain and they're living in bitterness, they may actually drive the involved spouse, A spouse who had the affair into the arms of someone else. Again, they just kind of feel hopeless. Crud, we're here, we're stuck. Or they may just decide they don't want to be with you anymore. So I wish there was more time we could spend on that one. But one of the things with this, lemme just, I want to kind of wrap that up as best I can.

Sometimes people like the pain, they don't know how to deal with the pain. Many people dunno how to deal with it, but the ones who like it, they kind of get addicted to dealing with it. Those feelings, that's rare. I mean, this isn't like every person that gets stuck in it. That's pretty rare, I would say.

Morgan:

Gotcha, gotcha. Well, the sixth one that we are talking about, why forgiveness hasn't happened yet spouses who are caught up in their own hurt are not able to see the affair from their husband or wife's point of view. So part of the process of achieving forgiveness for injured spouses is being able to give up the role of the victim and see things through their partner's eyes. So that empathy there, when the pain is still fresh, it is very easy for them to be absorbed in their own injury and not be able to forgive, have compassion or understanding. And it is quite hard because you are nursing your own wounds to be able to see through your spouse's eyes. But it's very important

Brad:

To

Morgan:

Get to that point.

Brad:

And what you just said there is really important. There are still hurting so deeply and so much that they can't. It's almost like you're in so much pain yourself, and this is what couples experience, not just with infidelity, but in our office, when they get caught in that negative cycle, they're experiencing so much pain themselves that it's really hard for them to know or see where their spouse is coming from. And that's really important with being able to get out of that negative cycle. The negative cycle is such an important part of the recovery process. Dealing with that, moving forward with it, it's really, really important. Honestly, that's where marriage counseling comes into play, helping you deal with that negative cycle,

Morgan:

Kind of see the forest from the trees.

Brad:

It's

Morgan:

Very easy to get stuck in the jungle, but being able to see it from the treetops,

Brad:

Well, yeah, you're hurting so much. It's kind of like when you're depressed, times where I've been depressed or people are just this way, when you're depressed, you tend to be thinking about your own situation, what's causing you to be depressed, how the sky is falling in your world, and you don't really think about other people how they're affected and involved. That's sometimes why if you go help someone else who's hurting or suffering, you're going to feel better about your situation. You're just going to feel better, period. And so that's kind of how this pain works. It causes us to turn inward focus on ourselves because we're in a crisis and it's psychologically what we do just to get out of this mess is we become really?

Morgan:

Yeah, but truly it digs you down deeper into it. So stepping out of that and trying to be others focused or outwardly focused have a little empathy. It's going to really help the forgiveness process. So what's next? Questions

Brad:

To off? Yeah, we're going to talk about questions really to ask yourself, are you willing to forgive? How willing are you to do this? Because some people say, oh yeah, I want to forgive and this and that, but they get stuck in it. So here's some questions to ask yourself on how willing you are to forgive. Question one is, was your spouse trying to intentionally hurt you personally or was this behavior a reflection of their own emptiness? So were they trying to hurt you personally or is this a reflection of their own emptiness? Can you make allowances for your spouse's past? I think that's a really good thing to stop and think about. Is this personal or is this them acting out of their own hurt because they're empty and their unhappy in life? Are they doing this to try to intentionally hurt me or are they trying to do it because they're feeling empty?

Morgan:

But I wonder if that person really is trying to be mean and how do you sort through that?

Brad:

Well, to be honest with you, I think that that happens. But my experience that's rare with affairs, it's usually because they're empty, they're burned out, and maybe they do one out of the marriage, but it's not like they're trying to punish their spouse by having an affair. It's not something they generally do. They know their spouse finds out, that's why they're deceptive. They lie about it, they're going to be unhappy, but they're doing that more because they don't want to rock the boat. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Not like if they wanted their spouse to know one really hurt them personally, they would be much more honest about it, why it's going on. True. That's true.

Morgan:

Very true.

Brad:

So it's more about their own emptiness.

Morgan:

That's a good point,

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

Got it. Well, that second one is do you want to only condemn your spouse's affair and not your spouse?

Brad:

Yeah. And that's important, Morgan, what you said on how to sort out how willing you are to forgive. Are you only wanting to condemn the affair or are you trying to condemn your spouse? And there's a difference

Morgan:

As a person.

Brad:

Yeah, you're condemning a person. Are you condemning a person or a behavior? And sometimes that line is hard to distinguish, especially when there's a lot of pain in the beginning and couples are caught in that negative cycle. Do you want to give up your ill will towards your spouse? Do you really want to be able to let go and move on? How willing are you to give up that ill will? I know when I was betrayed, I wanted to do anything to get rid of it. The pain at least. And the pain is closely related to that, ill will because when you don't feel any pain anymore, you can begin to let it go. You can begin to fade.

Morgan:

And the next one, do you want to shift your focus away from the affair towards the positives in life? That's a question to sort out whether you're willing to forgive. Do you want to focus on the positives or do you want to focus on the affair?

Brad:

Yeah, and that's a good one. Again, this is hard to do in the beginning, and I'm afraid that people who are listening to this and they hear us talking about that depends on where you're at in the process. The first 90 days are the toughest, the toughest. And if you're listening to this and you're involved in the first 90 days, maybe even the first six months, and you're saying, Hey, he just said right there on the radio that you got to start thinking of being positive, that's going to be hard to do. There's a lot of factors you need to think about. Am I doing what I need to be doing to help my spouse heal? And you probably need to be in counseling. Am I doing what I need to do to help my spouse

Morgan:

Heal or myself to heal

Brad:

Or myself to heal? Focus on yourself, listen to your spouse, try to do all that, but work through the negative cycle. And so many times the one who had the affair is like, Hey, be positive. They really minimize where their spouse is coming from and honestly, it's really stupid.

Morgan:

Yeah, it's not helpful at all. The next one, do you want to trust your spouse again? Do you want to trust your spouse? Ultimately, if this all goes well and you could have complete healing and this great relationship, do you want to let them back in? Do you want to trust them? I think that's a good question.

Brad:

And that shows a willingness of how willing you are to forgive. Do you want to trust them again? I think that's a great question on the barometer of how willing you are to forgive is do you want to trust them again? And do you want to give up hurting and hating them?

Brad:

Do

Brad:

You want to give up your own hurt and do you want to give up your own hating them? That's an important question to ask yourself on how willing you are to forgive.

Morgan:

And I think a lot of people that comes in the form of, I don't want to hurt anymore. I just don't want to have this crushing feeling anymore. I think that's a good way to know if you want to give up the hurt.

Brad:

And Morgan, I just want to kind of briefly go over this. We're coming up on time, but I want to go over a common question that people have. How do I know I won't be betrayed

Morgan:

Again? Oh, yes, that's a great question.

Brad:

Yeah, it's a fantastic question because this is something that I hear often and I mentioned, I referenced that in our last show. Even when relationships are moving forward after an affair and it's doing better than expected,

Brad:

The

Brad:

Injured spouse typically has a common question that I hear in my office, and that is, how do I know I won't be betrayed again? How do I know I won't be cheated on again, this checklist I'm going to give you guys, this is really important as far as giving you peace of mind about how likely another fair is to happen again.

Brad:

Okay,

Brad:

And so the first is, do both of you understand appropriate boundaries concerning friendships of the opposite sex?

Morgan:

Oh, that's so important.

Brad:

It's

Morgan:

Crucial.

Brad:

It's crucial because it's hard. Well, it's crucial, at least for many times people have affairs. They just violate some of the most basic boundaries. I mean, just things that I consider common sense,

Morgan:

Just talking too much, too long, giving information to the other person that maybe your spouse doesn't even know. Sharing personal feelings about even the smallest things sometimes.

Brad:

Yeah, we've had numerous people just go to music events with someone who wasn't their spouse. It's like a coworker or a friend. I'm like, are you serious?

Brad:

Yeah.

Brad:

And so it's just silly, but understanding appropriate boundaries also helps in the healing process. Another is, are you both committed to being honest about attractions to the opposite sex and to everything related to your relationship? That doesn't mean that you're going to go have an affair if you're attracted to someone else, but at least you need to be honest about some of these attractions because that helps prevent any acting out. It takes away the fantasy element if you discuss that with your spouse. It

Morgan:

Brings reality to it for sure. And definitely that secret, that small little secret thought that happened in the day that sure does grow sometimes and it can lead to something. So I'll do the next one.

Brad:

Yeah, go ahead.

Morgan:

You both have friends who are a hundred percent supportive of your marriage. I think this is so important because people will say, I just want you to be happy he's done this or she's done this to you. Let's go to the bar and drink it up and we'll just forget that

Brad:

They

Morgan:

Ever existed and that's just not,

Brad:

And the other thing about that is commonly talking about marital problems with friends and family. I wouldn't say it's a leading cause of divorce, but it's a factor that contributes to divorce

Brad:

That's

Brad:

Not really always considered. I wouldn't say it's a leading cause, like money issues or sex issues or things like that, but it's a factor that influences people to start thinking, well, my parents don't like him. My parents don't like her,

Morgan:

And my mom is constantly talking about

Brad:

My friend. How

Morgan:

Horrible.

Brad:

Yeah, you only get one side of the story. So you want to have friends and family who are a hundred percent supportive of the marriage that you go to for marital problems. For the sake of time, I'm just going to go through the next few of these. You both have the same understanding of what commitment and faithfulness means

Morgan:

Being on the same page.

Brad:

Yeah. You both agree on what monogamy is. You both agree on what an emotional affair

Morgan:

Is and what's okay and what's not.

Brad:

That's important because a lot of people just disagree on what an affair is. They don't understand that there's different warning signs or different types of affairs, emotional affairs. Some people think it's only intercourse. Some people think it's other types of sex is

Morgan:

Okay. Some people think pornography is okay when it's just not.

Brad:

So you both have the same understanding of what commitment and faithfulness means. Obviously that's something you want to talk about before you get married. And so anyway, the next one is you talk to your spouse about vulnerabilities and warning signs without either one of you being defensive. You can talk about vulnerabilities, warning signs without people becoming defensive.

Morgan:

So glad that you were honest and telling me that you felt that way, that kind of thing. You acknowledge and are working on problems in the marriage that could weaken your

Brad:

Commitment. Yeah. You're acknowledging and working on those things that are issues that are factors that hurt the marriage, and that's so important. You show that you care about each other even in little things. That's so important. Doing the dishes, doing the dishes, doing the laundry, cleaning the cats, litter box.

Morgan:

Those are things that are on his honey-do list. And the last one, you have made your spouse a priority over everyone else that's important.

Brad:

And Morgan, I would even add, and this is a key one, you're out of the negative cycle. You're out of the negative cycle. That's so important

Morgan:

And that's how you'll know that the betrayal won't happen again or very likely,

Brad:

And you feel more emotionally secure with each other. You feel like there's dependability there, the emotional connection is there. Those are all things that are important that you consider

Morgan:

Safety. Safety in the relationship.

Brad:

The second type of forgiveness that we're going to focus on is forgiving to let that person back in.

Morgan:

And the first one was about letting

Brad:

Go of resentment, revenge, hurt, anger, bitterness, things like that.

Morgan:

It's kind of for yourself.

Brad:

Yeah, it's more for yourself. Now, this is when you're working towards reconciliation, you're working towards resolving things, fixing the marriage, and so you can have forgiveness without letting that person in. You can do that. You can forgive someone who has really hurt you without them becoming part of your life. Now. This is about how they become a part of your life after they've really hurt you. The steps necessary to begin to heal,

Morgan:

To reconcile the rules. To reconcile.

Brad:

Yeah. This is so important because many times in couples counseling with couples, when there isn't an affair, we will help them work past conflict. They've deescalated, meaning they're fighting less, and when they do fight, it's less intense, but they're not feeling closer emotionally. Just because there's an absence of conflict does not necessarily mean there is emotional

Morgan:

Closeness and a great relationship

Brad:

And a great relationship. It can still say surface, and that's because generally there is a time in the past where one of the spouses felt abandoned and they really needed their spouse and they felt abandoned. Kind of my term for relationship injury comes from a feeling of abandonment that is accrued by an event or a pattern of behavior during a time when a person really felt like they needed their spouse or their partner

Morgan:

And they just weren't there for 'em

Brad:

And they weren't there. So after we experienced a relationship injury, we put up a wall that keeps our spouse out that says, I will not let you in. I'll not depend on you again for anything. And so we feel like it is easier to do things on our own instead of relying on our spouse. And we have found our spouse to be untrustworthy or dependable

Morgan:

And not safe.

Brad:

Yeah, they're not a safe person in a way. They're kind of dangerous. So we just find 'em untrustworthy, undependable, we quit relying on 'em. A wall goes up and we reason to ourself, it's easier to do life on my own than open up to this person and need this person.

Morgan:

There's kind of a distance that's between you and your spouse. It grows and grows and grows until things

Brad:

Happen. Yeah, it's a big distance. Recently I had a couple where I worked with them on a relationship injury like this, and sometimes they involve health emergencies, pregnancies, obviously infidelity.

Morgan:

Death in the family.

Brad:

Death in the family.

Morgan:

You weren't there for me when my father died.

Brad:

Yeah. Crisis, things like that. Moments when you need somebody,

Morgan:

And that's not always physical closeness that can be emotional closeness.

Brad:

Yes, I need, it's more about the emotional closeness. I need to rely on you.

Morgan:

You weren't there to comfort me or something like that.

Brad:

Yeah, it's usually things like that. But one of the key things is these wounds are there. Sometimes they're not ever discussed and sometimes they're obvious to both parties, sometimes they're never discussed. And if they are, a negative cycle can almost be triggered just discussing it

Because somebody is labeled as a monster and a horrible human being for allowing this to happen. And just the way it's brought up many times it can trigger a negative cycle. The person who's the accused, so to speak, they think, you think I'm a horrible person, you think I'm a monster? And so they get defensive and it creates this negative cycle around it that makes it really hard to resolve and heal from. So we're going to go through the steps here in a second, but why this is so important, resolving these relationship injuries like this, and many couples that come into marriage counseling have 'em. Many couples obviously when there's an affair have these. And so why is it important? Well, just because there's an absence of conflict doesn't mean that there's an emotional connection. So resolving this allows the person who's been hurt to become emotionally connected again and risk relying on their spouse or partner again. And so that's really important.

Morgan:

Let me just for a point of clarity, when a couple has experienced these pains in their relationship, you're saying that they need to discuss those issues and talk about the hurt surrounding that abandonment or those injuries before they can begin to fully forgive and let their partner back in and feel vulnerable with that partner. Is that what you're saying?

Brad:

Yeah, I am saying that. I'm saying in order to really forgive that person and let 'em back in, you have to feel like as the person who's been hurt, you have to feel like that person is safe and no longer going to hurt you.

Morgan:

Okay? And that's what we're going to talk about and that's what we're going to talk about.

Brad:

And here's the secret. If you don't get anything out of this, and you're the one who's hurt somebody, how they get over this, and this is the big secret, is you have to show them you're hurting because hurting.

Brad:

You're

Brad:

Not hurting because you got caught or you're not hurting because they kicked you out of the house. You're hurting because you've devastated them. That's the only way they get past this, and they need an explanation that makes sense. They need to understand your thought process, not you getting defensive, but you explaining who you were, why you did what you did as a way to make yourself more predictable to 'em. That's kind of the whole secret with this. And they need to sense from you that you're really in pain about this. They don't need to sense that you're angry or that you're upset, though you may be that. But what's really underneath that frustration is what really is going on is you're really sad about this. They need to see that sadness, that remorse that you have because you are heartbroken that you've caused this kind of pain. That's how that person begins to let you back in. If they don't sense that you are undependable, unreliable, you're just not safe. So of course they're not going to let you in.

Morgan:

Yeah. And you'll get stuck in this cycle. Talk

Brad:

About, yeah, you're going to get stuck and you're not going to really be able to have an emotionally close relationship or marriage. Again, here's the other thing. Why this is so important is this is what the betrayed spouse needs to heal. They need to know that you're in pain about hurting them, that you're ashamed of yourself, that you feel guilty about this, that you're disappointed in yourself. They need to know that, and you need to show 'em that. You can't just assume that they know that because you feel that way or that the reason you're staying up at night is because you are guilty and you feel remorse. They need to hear it from your mouth. They can't just assume that because if you're up at night and you can't sleep, they may think you're missing the affair partner. They may think that you're still in love with that person and you're having withdrawals from them. You need to be very clear and explicit, I am grieving how I've hurt you. They need to know that. And you can't just assume they know that. You need to show them that. Many times in my office when I'm working with couples, I'll ask, how do you show your spouse you're feeling sad or remorseful? And many times the answer is, I don't. Or if they do, well, I get angry. Or spouse is like, well, no, duh, I don't know that you're upset or you're angry or you're sorry for what you did. You don't tell me that and I don't sense it from you.

Morgan:

All I see is anger. Yeah.

Brad:

All I see is anger. How am I supposed to know you feel guilty about hurting me? You don't ever tell me that. And because they can't do that or they're not doing that, of course the spouse can't rely on 'em again. So Morgan, let's focus on kind of the steps of forgiving a relationship

Morgan:

Injury. Okay, awesome.

Brad:

It's very simple. We're going to go through these steps and remember this, spouses who've had affairs, it's always easier for your spouse to forgive you when you feel your spouse's pain. That's really key. It's also easier when your spouse feels safe that another affair will not happen again. And you have to show, not just have words of apology. I'm sorry, I apologize. But you have to back that up with actions

Morgan:

That

Brad:

Show your're truly sorry,

Morgan:

And you're accountable.

Brad:

Yeah, you have to have that because healing obviously can't take place if the affair is still occurring or they sense that it's still occurring and you have to show yourself as someone who is taking responsibility for this. And so we're going to get in a little bit more detail.

Morgan:

And trust is built over time.

Brad:

Yeah, it's built over time. But this is a huge point in rebuilding that marriage and relationship. And this isn't just a one time event. This is something that you have to show

Morgan:

Over and over

Brad:

Sometimes again, over and over again. Often, I don't know the number of times you have to show it, but I know it's a lot. I don't know if there's ever a limit to the number times you show the pain that you're in. But recently we had a guy that was caught in numerous affairs. He was more distraught about his wife acting very upset than he was about actually healing her pain and he couldn't show her this. So obviously they stayed in a perpetual negative cycle they couldn't get out of.

Morgan:

Do we want to talk about the steps?

Brad:

Yeah, I'll go ahead and start with the first one, Morgan.

Morgan:

Okay.

Brad:

Like I mentioned earlier, the spouse who's been betrayed or injured with a relationship injury, they really need to be able to recognize and articulate the injury caused by the affair. Remember, you want to express these emotions without yelling or attacking your spouse or partner. You need your partner to hear what you were saying without feeling defensive. And also you need to let your spouse know you felt deprived, dismissed, deserted, devalued. You need to let 'em know you really felt abandoned.

And here's how you do that. You do that by tapping into what's called primary emotion. And the best way I know how to explain primary emotion is most of the time we only show secondary emotion. If we're feeling sad, which is a primary emotion, we may show anger. Or if we're feeling sad, we may just kind of shut down and get quiet, or we may show frustration or worry. Those are all secondary emotions. And secondary emotions don't really move a person. And what you want is you want to tap into the sadness that's there, the fear that's there. And you know what I've noticed, Morgan? It's really easy when there's an affair for people to tap into, especially when they've been betrayed, to tap into that primary emotion. But many times it comes out with criticism and attacks as well. You're being vulnerable, but you're also spewing hatred. You're spewing attacks, things like that. And that really makes it hard to heal. You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot when you do that. And here's primary emotions. Here's examples of primary emotion, and there's only maybe six, seven emotions. Talk about the hurt. That's not really a primary, but it helps you access that primary. Talking about the hurt, talking about sadness,

Talking about fear, talking about shame or disgust that you have talking about.

Morgan:

What about loneliness is that

Brad:

That's a secondary emotion. Secondary, yeah. Sadness, fear are going to be primary emotions that you're going to talk about a lot. Shame is going to be a primary emotion. The betrayer will have, guilt is more of a secondary emotion, so disgust with yourself is going to be important. There's also anger is a primary emotion. Anger can be secondary, and I hope I'm not confusing our listeners, but anger can be both primary and secondary. It's primary when it's used to defend yourself. It's also primary when you're using it to enforce your boundaries. And so it's more secondary when it's used to attack someone else. So anyway, those are some examples of primary emotion. There's also positive primary emotions like joy, surprise, excitement. Those are positive primary emotions. But when you articulate this injury that was caused by the affair, talk about the primary emotion that's there, and here's why primary emotion is so important because it moves your spouse,

Brad:

It

Brad:

Causes them to have more of a tender heart towards you. It causes them to feel more compassion towards you. It causes them to have more empathy for you. It causes them to really hear you. Many times in my office when we get into primary emotion, people aren't fighting anymore. They're listening to each other because they're actually seeing the impact that their behavior is having on their spouse. And so that's a key thing. And so articulate, recognize, articulate the injury. If it's a pattern of behavior, try to find an incident that really hurts the most and go after that incident. Recently had a couple, the same couple I was talking about a moment ago where the wife was pregnant and the husband wasn't helping out, and this is a common scenario, but she was doing all this housework and he was watching TV by himself, and she's really kind of doing real physical housework.

Well, she gets an attachment injury from that. And talking about this really makes it much harder when you don't get into the primary. If you talk about the primary, it helps. But what happened with her is he's always been this way. It's a pattern of behavior. And she was able to recognize a one time event that occurred, and it made it much easier for him to realize, oh my gosh, I really dropped the ball. And so it may be a pattern, but there may be one event focus on that event. It helps sometimes resolve this. But if you can't go with that pattern of behavior,

Morgan:

And that was a relationship injury that she felt like he wasn't stepping up and taking,

Brad:

She surely felt hurt

Morgan:

And helping.

Brad:

Yeah.

Morgan:

Okay. Yeah. So the second step here is as the involved spouse or the spouse that maybe had the affair or created the injury, realize that some apologies don't work. Examples of apologies that don't work are maybe I did have an affair, but I guess you expect me to apologize. You can't let this go until I apologize. So all of these are forced token apologies that come nowhere near correcting the damage that's been done by the affairs.

Brad:

And those don't sound very sincere,

Morgan:

Morgan. No. Right?

Brad:

Well, maybe I did have an affair, but there's going to be a huge but huge reason for having an affair. Maybe I had an affair, but you always criticize me for years. Or just something silly.

Morgan:

Didn't scoop the cat box like that one person said,

Brad:

Yeah, it's just silly. But the other is, I guess you expect me to apologize. That's not very,

Morgan:

That's not sincere.

Brad:

No, you can't let this go and dull. I apologize. So here's my apology. And here's the thing is like I mentioned earlier in the show, in order for an apology to work, it's the feeling and the emotion behind it. You need an apology because that's an acknowledgement of the pain that's necessary. And acknowledgement of the pain is necessary. But you have to show them, I am hurting because you're hurting. I'm hurting because I see you hurting from what I did. I'm so ashamed of myself and my actions. I'm so sorry for hurting you.

Morgan:

Not that you're an inconvenience, and your emotions and feelings

Brad:

Are because those kind of token apologies that you gave examples of,

Morgan:

There's one too. I'm sorry you feel that way, or

Brad:

Yeah, that's not a real apology that people can heal from any sort of big relationship hurt.

Morgan:

And

Brad:

To have an attachment injury or relationship injury, you really have to have some serious relationship hurts. And so that ties into what I'm saying here. Those types of apologies don't work. Well, here's five elements of an effective apology. The first is you have to care for their pain. And the second is you acknowledge that their hurt is legitimate. You have legitimate right to be hurt.

Brad:

You

Brad:

Have to let 'em know that. The third is you take ownership of your hurtful actions.

Morgan:

I did this, I did this, and it hurt you.

Brad:

Yeah, you take ownership. Four is you express shame for your behavior. Five is you assure your spouse that you're willing to help them heal. So you have to assure them, I'm here to help you heal. This isn't going to happen anymore. There's no more text messages, phone calls, no more out of town trips with this person. No more.

Morgan:

You take my phone, take my email account passwords, please.

Brad:

You're showing yourself willing to be a healer. And the people who heal the best are able to do this. The couples that heal the best are able to do this. And granted, not every couple who's had an affair is in this place coming out of the gate to be able to do this. But this is where you should be working towards. And like we talked about before in previous shows, many times people who have an affair, they're kind of burned out. But once you're back in it, you need to be able to do this in order to heal. Those are elements of an apology that make it effective. And again, the big idea is they have to sense from you, the one who did this, that you're in pain

Brad:

Because

Brad:

They're in pain. Your pain is tied to them hurting, and it's not I'm in pain. I got caught or anything silly like that. I'm in pain because I see how hurt you are.

Morgan:

And it's sincere and it's sincere

Brad:

And

Morgan:

Honest. Yeah. Let's talk about this next one, talking to the involved spouse. Again, help your husband or wife understand your personal weaknesses and emotional vulnerabilities that contributed to the affair. So explain these weaknesses and vulnerabilities without blaming your spouse for the affair.

Brad:

Really

Morgan:

Assess where did you get permission? How did things degrade over time for you that caused your boundaries to be lifted and caused you to fall into something like an affair?

Brad:

Yeah. Another way to think about this is you want to try to help your spouse understand why you responded the way you did at that moment.

Brad:

Yes.

Brad:

And really what that's about is you're going to have to dig deep and you may even have to discover for yourself how that evolved, how you got to that place.

Morgan:

Yes. How those boundaries degraded. Exactly.

Brad:

And think about this though as making yourself more predictable to your spouse. And what I mean by that is you are dangerous to them after an affair. They're scared of you. And so you have to talk about this in terms of helping them see you is less dangerous. They have to understand your thought process, where you're coming from. They have to understand a great deal of that, and it has to make sense to them. And so you may have to dig deep, discover what's going on and share that and discuss that because part of that healing is you're just making yourself more predictable,

Morgan:

More of what was happening for you inside versus the environment. Because that environment could be accusatory. It could be saying, well, you were pregnant and I was lonely, and then I decided to do such and such.

Brad:

They have to just, the best way is you're just making yourself more predictable. Here's my thought process. Here's what was happening. Here's what's happening. Because you're less dangerous. They can read you better. And understanding that helps them know why this happened, but also they can feel more protected from it happening again. And then the next step after explaining that you want to really recognize their pain and you want to apologize. And again, the elements of that apology are caring for their pain, acknowledging that their hurt is legitimate. Taking ownership of your hurtful actions, expressing shame for your behavior, sharing your spouse that you're willing to help them heal. And when you do that, it's about acknowledging their pain and you helping take care of it. You want to take ownership of your actions and you want to show that you're willing to do whatever it takes. Lemme say this apology isn't about the one who had the affair. It's about I'm showing you my pain. And let me say this, Morgan. There's some individuals who've had affairs who were really just so disgusted with themselves. It takes a lot for them to dig deep and show this kind of remorse. And because they feel it

And it's there for them, they just assume that their spouse knows it. Let me repeat that. Yeah, you may be feeling it and it may be very legitimate in there and real, but your spouse has got to see it from you.

And this is something that sometimes you're going to have to initiate. I'm really sorry. You're going to have to bring it up on your own and talk about it, because when your spouse feels like you're not sorry for it, and they're going to live in fear of you and they're going to stay at that place where the wall is up, they're going to stay guarded. They're going to stay afraid of you, and they're going to stay afraid of it happening again. And so recently I had a couple where the husband, the only time he's ever able to do this is when he's in our office in therapy. And the wife loves coming to counseling because of that. But outside, he doesn't do that. And it actually causes him to stay stuck in the negative cycle because she's afraid of him and it's very real fear and naturally. And so it makes it really hard for her to trust him because she doesn't see that as often as she needs to see it

Morgan:

Outside

Brad:

Of counseling.

Morgan:

Outside of counseling, him being open and

Brad:

Him being open and then sharing that he is in pain because she's in pain and it's there. It didn't take a lot of probing to get it out, but it needs to be something that initiates, he initiates any shows. Morgan, do you want to do the last one?

Morgan:

Sure. So we talked about, well, we also have injured spouses. I mean, do you accept the apology? If you can at this point, the relationship can begin to move forward and you'll be able to leave behind the resentment.

Brad:

You'll be able to start leaving behind the resentment. You can start letting yourself get closer. But again, a lot of that is based on the betrayer. Where are they at? The one who did this? Are you making them feel safe? Are you there acknowledging the pain? You care for their pain? This isn't a onetime thing. I know we're kind of talking about it in terms that there's these steps. It's like a onetime event, but really what? It's ongoing.

Morgan:

It's ongoing

Brad:

And it needs to continue to happen every day as much as the one who's been betrayed needs it.

Morgan:

And sometimes these apologies, they just don't penetrate. They don't go to the deepest part. They have to hear it over and over sometimes because it's very hard. And they have these questions that keep coming up and keep coming up until they can fully process it. It's going to take some time.

Brad:

Step six is, do you accept the apology that you just kind of went over? Step seven is discuss as the one who had the affair, how you intend for this never to happen again, or the one who abandoned your or hurt your spouse. How you never intend for this to happen again. And so you need to be specific about what you expect moving forward and what you can't tolerate happening. Obviously, healing won't be able to take place if it's still occurring. And these are the steps for healing, working through relationship injuries like affairs, even other types of relationship injuries, really anything that's created a wall and emotional distance. And it doesn't have to be things as big as affairs to do that. And these steps that we've gone over, they work with affairs and other relationship injuries. This is a thing that really needs to take place early on in the affair recovery process. And then

Morgan:

What if your spouse is not available to forgive if they're not

Brad:

Healing by yourself?

Well, that is a fantastic question. And just briefly, I want to go over one way to heal, and really it involves letter writing. You want to just take out a pen and paper and here's a sample of what you can do. You want to write them a letter saying you forgive them, and you can say, dear so-and-so with all of my might, I forgive you for all the betrayal and hurt you have caused me. I've released the burden of ill will towards you now and free me and you to live without this guilt, resentment, hatred, anger. And so that's kind of a sample. Lemme say this, if you share some responsibility for hurting the betrayer or whoever else, your spouse who left you, or if you carried extreme resentment, you might ask them to forgive you as well. And you can include a statement when you write this letter about forgiving yourself and sign it and date it. And then some people find it helpful to burn it.

Morgan:

Yeah. It may not want to send it, and you want to maybe have to write it over and over every day until it becomes true.

Brad:

Yeah. Write them a letter letting them releasing them. Thanks for listening to Healing Broken Trust. If you like this episode, you can always get our show notes and more details and links to the resources we discussed@healingbrokentrust.com. Also, as long as you're online, head on over to healing broken trust.com/retreat for details on an upcoming one-on-one retreat with me. If you like us, please subscribe and leave a review for us on iTunes. As always, everything discussed on this podcast is either my opinion or Morgan's opinion and is not to be taken as relationship advice because I'm not your therapist, nor have I considered your personal situation as your therapist. This podcast is for your entertainment and education only, and I really do hope you've enjoyed it. See you Until next time.